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Sack yardage (1 Viewer)

ookook

Footballguy
In the IDP dynasty league that I am setting up, I played with VDB values of different positions last night and as one might expect, DL still seem undervalued. I toyed with idea of decreasing points for tackles relative to sacks, but didn't like it.

Does anyone give points for Sack a QB Yardage? How much.

BTW, it is a start 4 DL, 3 LB, 4 DB lineup right now with scoring of:

• Safety: 3 pts

• Interceptions: 4 pts

• Fumble Recovery: 2 pts

• Forced Fumble: 2 pts

• Sack: 3 pt (1/2 sack = 1.5 pt)

• Tackles: 2 pts

• Assists: 1 pt

• Blocked Punt/FG: 2 pts

• Passes Defended: 1.5 pt

Any other thoughts?

 
Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 0-10 3 points each Test

Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 2-10 2 Test

Forced Fumbles 0-10 3 points each Test

Forced Fumbles 2-10 2 Test

Interceptions Caught 0-10 4 points each Test

Interceptions Caught 2-10 2 Test

Passes Defensed 0-99 1 point each Test

Passes Defensed 3-99 1 Test

Blocked Field Goals 0-10 3 points each Test

Blocked Punts 0-10 3 points each Test

Blocked Extra Points 0-10 3 points each Test

Sacked a QB 0-10 3 points each Test

Sacked a QB 2-10 2 Test

Sacked a QB Yardage 0-100 .2 point for every 1 Test

Safeties 0-10 3 points each Test

Length of Defensive/Special Teams TDs 0-39 6 Test

Length of Defensive/Special Teams TDs 40-110 9 Test

 
Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 0-10 3 points each Test

Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 2-10 2 Test

Forced Fumbles 0-10 3 points each Test

Forced Fumbles 2-10 2 Test

Interceptions Caught 0-10 4 points each Test

Interceptions Caught 2-10 2 Test

Passes Defensed 0-99 1 point each Test

Passes Defensed 3-99 1 Test

Blocked Field Goals 0-10 3 points each Test

Blocked Punts 0-10 3 points each Test

Blocked Extra Points 0-10 3 points each Test

Sacked a QB 0-10 3 points each Test

Sacked a QB 2-10 2 Test

Sacked a QB Yardage 0-100 .2 point for every 1 Test

Safeties 0-10 3 points each Test

Length of Defensive/Special Teams TDs 0-39 6 Test

Length of Defensive/Special Teams TDs 40-110 9 Test
Thanks Kelly's.I wondered if the only leagues that did this also gave yardage for INT returns and fumble recovery. Looks like you ONLY do sacks.

Does it help equate DL positions at all?

 
How many yards is an average sack?

Or do you have an MFL page for a league scored this way so I can go in and look at players' scores from last season?

 
How many yards is an average sack? Or do you have an MFL page for a league scored this way so I can go in and look at players' scores from last season?
It's averaged out to just more than six yards per sack over the past three seasons.
 
Bit of a hijack here but is there anyone who awards pts for tkls behind the line?

It would be nice to be able to score this differently than a tkl past the line.

 
An easier idea - just up the points for sacks. I have a league like this and DL is as valuable as any other IDP. Think about it - sacks are rare an big plays, why are they only scored a point or two more than tackles in most leagues? It also helps equalize the value of LBs like Merriman, Ware, etc.

:sadbanana:

 
Thanks for all the info.

It seems like sack yardage amounts to adding about .5 (.6) per sack.

I generally want the differences in points to reflect actual value to teams so am reluctant to make sacks worth more than safeties.

I am thinking about making sacks 3.5, safeties 4, and passes defended 2. Scoring would then be:

• Safety: 4 pts

• Interceptions: 4 pts

• Fumble Recovery: 2 pts

• Forced Fumble: 2 pts

• Sack: 3.5 pt (1/2 sack = 1.75 pt)

• Tackles: 2 pts

• Assists: 1 pt

• Blocked Punt/FG: 2 pts

• Passes Defended: 2 pt

Does this seem okay to folks with more experience than I?

What we really need is a careful study of how different IDP scoring systems affect player value relative to other IDP positions and offensive positions.

Has this been done?

 
Thanks for all the info.

It seems like sack yardage amounts to adding about .5 (.6) per sack.

I generally want the differences in points to reflect actual value to teams so am reluctant to make sacks worth more than safeties.

I am thinking about making sacks 3.5, safeties 4, and passes defended 2. Scoring would then be:

• Safety: 4 pts

• Interceptions: 4 pts

• Fumble Recovery: 2 pts

• Forced Fumble: 2 pts

• Sack: 3.5 pt (1/2 sack = 1.75 pt)

• Tackles: 2 pts

• Assists: 1 pt

• Blocked Punt/FG: 2 pts

• Passes Defended: 2 pt

Does this seem okay to folks with more experience than I?

What we really need is a careful study of how different IDP scoring systems affect player value relative to other IDP positions and offensive positions.

Has this been done?
Not really.I've got some more thoughts; just haven't had time yet. I'll try to get back to this later tonight.

 
looks good expect the 2 for PD, it shouldn't equal a whole tackle IMO
I agree. Was just trying to add a little to DBs relative to LBs (who clearly dominate).
I absolutely think a PD should have the same value as a tackle since a PD kills the play - as does a tackle.Also, on a PD the defense does not give up yardage - but stops the clock which is the only potentially negative point from adefensive point of view.In all fairness someone with many PDs will make 20-30 - so that is the amount of points moving from 1 to 2 points will generate. It will not make the DBs much more like LBs - but it will make the CBs and FSs relatively more interesting in comparison with SS (generalising here - I won't get into scheme)
 
In all fairness someone with many PDs will make 20-30 - so that is the amount of points moving from 1 to 2 points will generate. It will not make the DBs much more like LBs - but it will make the CBs and FSs relatively more interesting in comparison with SS (generalising here - I won't get into scheme)
20 - 30 PDs a season :bag: , thats a lot.
 
In all fairness someone with many PDs will make 20-30 - so that is the amount of points moving from 1 to 2 points will generate. It will not make the DBs much more like LBs - but it will make the CBs and FSs relatively more interesting in comparison with SS (generalising here - I won't get into scheme)
20 - 30 PDs a season :lmao: , thats a lot.
2004: highest 23, 6 DBs with 20 or more2005: highest 27, 6 DBs with 20 or more

I haven't looked at 2006 data yet but I'd guess it is about the same

 
There isn’t a simple way to make player values look pretty, especially if you’re trying to keep the scoring system/lineup simple. And you don’t really need a study to determine the numbers.

This is how I would approach it.

1. Decide your offensive scoring system and standard lineup. Plug it into a test MFL league and write down the total points for the top overall player and bottom tier starters for each position. For example, if you have a 12 team, start 2 RB league, write down the year end point totals for the #1, #12, #24 players. You can grab more data points if you like but it’s not really necessary.

2. Decide how closely you want the defensive points to mirror the offensive points. Do you want the #1 LB to approximately equal the #1 RB, #5 RB, #16 RB etc.

3. Understanding that a standard 3-4 rush OLB has a totally different statline than a steady 4-3 MLB, decide if you want them about equal or skewed one way or the other. Similarly, understanding that a standard CB has a different statline than a standard SS, make a similar determination in value there.

4. In a spreadsheet, play with scoring values such that the defensive rank lists reflect the relative value to the offensive guys you like and such that the different types of players within a given position rank how you want them.

Two possible solutions, though neither are particularly simple, are to break out CBs, DTs, or OLBs and/or (as was suggested above) make the points per stat different for each group of player, i.e. a DE gets more points per sack than a LB/DB.

To give a few real life examples, here are some 2006 statlines for a couple typical rush linebacker compared to a couple solid but not spectacular MLBs and how they’d compare in different scoring systems – just varying sack values.

All lines = solo/assist/sack/FFandFR/INT/PD

2006 Demarcus Ware 59/15/12/6/1/6

2006 Shaun Phillips (proj) 54/24/12.5/6/0/9

2006 Lofa Tatupu 93/30/1.5/3/1/7

2006 Kirk Morrison 102/26/1/2/2/5

Player Sack=3 Sack=4 Sack=6 Sack=8Ware 194 206 230 254Phillips 195 208 234 258Tatupu 241 243 247 249Morrison 253 254 256 258That’s why it’s generally considered that awarding around 3x tackle per sack is considered neutral. It’s a little closer to 3.5 in some situations, but you get the point.Once you’ve found the right relative distribution within each defensive position on your spreadsheet, then you can compare the tiers to the offensive side and alter the percentages of a defensive stat or two or add a stat like sack yardage to make the distribution among all positions equal.

There really is no way, though, to keep the same scoring system for every defensive player and have the DL distribution similar in points to the other positions. If you want that to happen – and many leagues just leave the middle ranks of the DL relatively low because tweaking the numbers will send the studs way, way up your lists – you’re going to have to make DL sacks or tackles worth fractionally more.

Again, choosing a couple of representative statlines and plugging them in the spreadsheet like the LBs above is the best way to do this. The spreadsheet lets you tweak whatever stat you want and immediately see the effect. And, IMO, a few representative statlines is key because looking at the entire set of statlines and rank lists may give you a skewed data set in any given season. So, I'd use the sheet rather than MFL if you really want to be precise because you'll be playing with a lot of stats and changing the parameters of the MFL sham league will get tedious after awhile.

Hope that helps.

 
A few thoughts on IDP scoring.

1. I do not like tweaking scoring to favor one position over another. This causes other imbalances and more rules lawyership in owners. Especialy in dynasty leagues I don't think that is a good approach long term. Others will really disagree with this but thats my 2 cents. I think all players should be rewarded equaly rather than trying to make all players equal by rewarding some more than others for the same event/impact on any given game.

2. I definitly think a pass defensed is equal to a tackle. And it helps out defensive linemen more than you might think as some are good at batting down balls which really is a big time play for them. There are times that a defensive back will choose to just knock the ball down instead of going for the interception. Breaking up a 60 yard bomb that would have been caught otherwise is actualy a huge play. I could see justifying a higher award for a pass defensed than for a tackle. If you did I think a 1.5 to 1 ratio seems about right. It helps out defensive backs and defensive linemen a bit more than linebackers overall as well.

3. I believe in the 3 to 1 Sack to tackle ratio that Jene talked about above. And I have seen that ratio pass the test of time pretty well.

4. I don't like giving too high of awards for IDP events as long as TDs are still worth 6. I think a TD is a very important event. And should not be marginalized by having such high scoring for other events.

5. Added scoring for sack/interception/fumble/kick return yardage can really help IDPs compared to offensive players. While still rewarding both equaly in terms of the scoring. Both sides play special teams and there are a few 2 way players who can benifit. It makes big plays like long interception returns for TDs huge scoring plays. But when somthing like this happens in a game the team that does it tends to win that game more often than not. Not sure the percentage but I know it is pretty high like 70% or somthing.

 
Thank guys, definately helps.

We all have our preferences in terms of scoring and I generally share Biabreakable's for not having different scoring per position.

I also have done a spreadsheet to calculate the drop off for each position from top to median starter and worst starter.

My own general preferences are to try to control value through supply and demand, so in two leagues I run we start 4 WR (rather than PPR) compared to 2 RB. And I never liked flex positions (no need to flame, just my 2 cents).

So currently we are to start 4DL, 3LB, 4DB.

It sounds like sack to tackle of 3:1 is sensible. So I could lower tackles to 1 pt (from 2). Which helps value of DLs relative to LBs, but hurts LBs vs. offensive players' values. I have a hard time seeing 6pts per sack, but maybe I just have to get over it.

Unfortunately, too many (80% or more) of the owners in the leaugue that is going to IDP dynasty format have never played IDP and do not know the players, so they are already intimidated by the added level of complexity. Splitting up the IDP positions more might push them off the cliff at this point.

 
With regard to my spreadsheet exercise, I just went back and re-downloaded Draft Dominator from last year as it seems lots easier to observe the effects of different scoring on least year's projections.

 
With 3 per sack, 2 per tackle, 2 per PD and starting 4DL, 3LB, and 4DBs, the ranking of VBD values using worst starter comes out to the following to 75 for last year's projections. Obviously, I am not sayinng that I or anyone else would draft this way, but it does reflect one oway of defining value relative to other positions. Seems like a good spread.

Rank Pos Player VBD

1 RB1 Larry Johnson 160

2 RB2 LaDainian Tomlinson 136

3 RB3 Shaun Alexander 129

4 QB1 Peyton Manning 98

5 LB1 Jonathan Vilma 86

6 RB4 Tiki Barber 85

7 LB2 Keith Bulluck 83

8 DL1 Jason Taylor 78

9 WR1 Steve Smith 75

10 WR2 Chad Johnson 75

11 WR3 Randy Moss 73

12 WR4 Torry Holt 72

13 QB2 Carson Palmer 69

14 WR5 Larry Fitzgerald 69

15 RB5 Rudi Johnson 68

16 DB1 Adrian Wilson 68

17 DB2 Gibril Wilson 67

18 LB3 Brian Urlacher 66

19 QB3 Tom Brady 66

20 LB4 Ray Lewis 64

21 QB4 Donovan McNabb 64

22 DL2 Aaron Schobel 64

23 LB5 Lofa Tatupu 63

24 WR6 Anquan Boldin 62

25 LB6 Zach Thomas 62

26 WR7 Terrell Owens 61

27 LB7 Andra Davis 60

28 QB5 Matt Hasselbeck 60

29 RB6 Ronnie Brown 60

30 DL3 Charles Grant 59

31 WR8 Chris Chambers 59

32 DB3 Troy Polamalu 58

33 WR9 Marvin Harrison 58

34 TE1 Antonio Gates 58

35 WR10 Reggie Wayne 58

36 QB6 Daunte Culpepper 57

37 WR11 Donald Driver 57

38 DL4 Michael Strahan 56

39 DL5 Terrell Suggs 54

40 DL6 Osi Umenyiora 53

41 QB7 Jake Delhomme 53

42 RB7 Steven Jackson 52

43 WR12 Roy Williams 51

44 DL7 Aaron Kampman 51

45 DL8 John Abraham 50

46 LB8 London Fletcher 50

47 DL9 Will Smith 50

48 QB8 Marc Bulger 49

49 RB8 Willie Parker 47

50 LB9 Donnie Edwards 47

51 LB10 Nick Barnett 47

52 RB9 Cadillac Williams 46

53 QB9 Michael Vick 45

54 RB10 LaMont Jordan 45

55 DB4 Michael Lewis 44

56 DB5 Roy Williams 44

57 RB11 Edgerrin James 44

58 LB11 Mike Peterson 44

59 DB6 Darren Sharper 44

60 DL10 Julius Peppers 44

61 RB12 Willis McGahee 44

62 QB10 Aaron Brooks 43

63 QB11 Eli Manning 43

64 DL11 Kyle Vanden Bosch 42

65 DL12 Erasmus James 42

66 WR13 T.J. Houshmandzadeh 41

67 QB12 Trent Green 40

68 LB12 Will Witherspoon 40

69 DB7 Charles Tillman 40

70 DB8 Ronde Barber 40

71 RB13 Clinton Portis 40

72 DL13 Patrick Kerney 40

73 WR14 Santana Moss 39

74 DL14 Derrick Burgess 39

75 WR15 Plaxico Burress 38

 
Here is what happened when I dropped tackles to 1 per (1/2 for assist), leaving sacks at 3. Not sure I am liking that as much.

Rank Pos Player VBD

1 RB1 Larry Johnson 160

2 RB2 LaDainian Tomlinson 136

3 RB3 Shaun Alexander 129

4 QB1 Peyton Manning 98

5 RB4 Tiki Barber 85

6 WR1 Steve Smith 75

7 WR2 Chad Johnson 75

8 WR3 Randy Moss 73

9 WR4 Torry Holt 72

10 QB2 Carson Palmer 69

11 WR5 Larry Fitzgerald 69

12 RB5 Rudi Johnson 68

13 QB3 Tom Brady 66

14 QB4 Donovan McNabb 64

15 DL1 Jason Taylor 62

16 WR6 Anquan Boldin 62

17 WR7 Terrell Owens 61

18 QB5 Matt Hasselbeck 60

19 RB6 Ronnie Brown 60

20 WR8 Chris Chambers 59

21 WR9 Marvin Harrison 58

22 TE1 Antonio Gates 58

23 WR10 Reggie Wayne 58

24 QB6 Daunte Culpepper 57

25 WR11 Donald Driver 57

26 LB1 Keith Bulluck 56

27 LB2 Jonathan Vilma 54

28 QB7 Jake Delhomme 53

29 RB7 Steven Jackson 52

30 WR12 Roy Williams 51

31 QB8 Marc Bulger 49

32 RB8 Willie Parker 47

33 RB9 Cadillac Williams 46

34 QB9 Michael Vick 45

35 RB10 LaMont Jordan 45

36 RB11 Edgerrin James 44

37 RB12 Willis McGahee 44

38 QB10 Aaron Brooks 43

39 DL2 Aaron Schobel 43

40 QB11 Eli Manning 43

41 LB3 Brian Urlacher 43

42 DL3 Charles Grant 42

43 LB4 Lofa Tatupu 42

44 DL4 Terrell Suggs 41

45 WR13 T.J. Houshmandzadeh 41

46 QB12 Trent Green 40

47 RB13 Clinton Portis 40

48 DB1 Troy Polamalu 40

49 DB2 Adrian Wilson 39

50 DL5 Osi Umenyiora 39

51 WR14 Santana Moss 39

52 WR15 Plaxico Burress 38

53 QB13 Drew Bledsoe 38

54 DL6 Julius Peppers 38

55 DB3 Gibril Wilson 38

56 DL7 John Abraham 38

57 DL8 Will Smith 37

58 WR16 Hines Ward 37

59 DL9 Michael Strahan 36

60 QB14 Kurt Warner 36

61 TE2 Todd Heap 35

62 DB4 Charles Tillman 34

63 LB5 Ray Lewis 34

64 QB15 Chris Simms 34

65 QB16 Brett Favre 33

66 QB17 Jake Plummer 33

67 LB6 Mike Peterson 33

68 LB7 Zach Thomas 33

69 DL10 Erasmus James 33

70 RB14 Reggie Bush 33

71 DB5 Ronde Barber 33

72 TE3 Jeremy Shockey 32

73 LB8 Andra Davis 32

74 RB15 Brian Westbrook 31

 
Finally, here it is with 4 per sack, 2 per tackle, 4 for INT. Seems to disadvantage DBs relative to DLs a bit.

I think I like the first distribution best. Thoughts?

Rank Pos Player VBD

1 RB1 Larry Johnson 160

2 RB2 LaDainian Tomlinson 136

3 RB3 Shaun Alexander 129

4 QB1 Peyton Manning 98

5 LB1 Jonathan Vilma 88

6 LB2 Keith Bulluck 88

7 RB4 Tiki Barber 85

8 DL1 Jason Taylor 83

9 WR1 Steve Smith 75

10 WR2 Chad Johnson 75

11 WR3 Randy Moss 73

12 WR4 Torry Holt 72

13 DB1 Adrian Wilson 70

14 LB3 Brian Urlacher 70

15 QB2 Carson Palmer 69

16 WR5 Larry Fitzgerald 69

17 DB2 Gibril Wilson 69

18 DL2 Aaron Schobel 68

19 RB5 Rudi Johnson 68

20 QB3 Tom Brady 66

21 LB4 Ray Lewis 66

22 LB5 Lofa Tatupu 64

23 DL3 Charles Grant 64

24 QB4 Donovan McNabb 64

25 LB6 Zach Thomas 63

26 LB7 Andra Davis 62

27 WR6 Anquan Boldin 62

28 DB3 Troy Polamalu 61

29 WR7 Terrell Owens 61

30 DL4 Michael Strahan 60

31 QB5 Matt Hasselbeck 60

32 RB6 Ronnie Brown 60

33 DL5 Osi Umenyiora 59

34 WR8 Chris Chambers 59

35 WR9 Marvin Harrison 58

36 TE1 Antonio Gates 58

37 WR10 Reggie Wayne 58

38 QB6 Daunte Culpepper 57

39 WR11 Donald Driver 57

40 DL6 Terrell Suggs 57

41 DL7 John Abraham 57

42 DL8 Will Smith 54

43 QB7 Jake Delhomme 53

44 RB7 Steven Jackson 52

45 LB8 London Fletcher 52

46 WR12 Roy Williams 51

47 DL9 Aaron Kampman 50

48 DL10 Julius Peppers 50

49 QB8 Marc Bulger 49

50 LB9 Donnie Edwards 48

51 LB10 Nick Barnett 48

52 LB11 Mike Peterson 48

53 DB4 Roy Williams 47

54 RB8 Willie Parker 47

55 DL11 Erasmus James 46

56 RB9 Cadillac Williams 46

57 DL12 Kyle Vanden Bosch 45

58 DB5 Michael Lewis 45

59 QB9 Michael Vick 45

60 RB10 LaMont Jordan 45

61 RB11 Edgerrin James 44

62 DL13 Patrick Kerney 44

63 DL14 Derrick Burgess 44

64 DB6 Darren Sharper 44

65 RB12 Willis McGahee 44

66 QB10 Aaron Brooks 43

67 QB11 Eli Manning 43

68 DB7 Ronde Barber 43

69 LB12 Will Witherspoon 42

70 DL15 Bertrand Berry 41

71 DB8 Charles Tillman 41

72 WR13 T.J. Houshmandzadeh 41

73 QB12 Trent Green 40

74 RB13 Clinton Portis 40

75 DL16 Jared Allen 39

 

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