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Salary cap question? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jbl1967
- Start date
coolnerd
Footballguy
Signing bonus are pro-rated through the life of the contract and accelerate when the player is cut. Salaries don't hit the cap until the player makes the roster, same with roster bonus. This is oversimplified, but what the Cowboys are savings is Ellis' actual salary (did not look up)- minus any accelerated bonus.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
The salary cap hit from actual salary only counts if a player is cut after Week One of the regular season. So they would save the amount he was due in salary for the 2009 season. Any unaccounted signing bonus would be accelerated and have to be charged against the cap this year. I believe that in prior seasons that could have been split between 2009 and 2010, but given the lack of a salary cap for next year teams can no longer do that.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Yeah, what these other guys already said.
I just saw a few #'s floating around the net, so don't take any of this as any kind of reliable source, but I've seen it mentioned that he had a seemingly backloaded 5.6m in salary coming to him, with kind of a funky 1.5m guaranteed.
You're on the hook for all guaranteed money (hence, the guarantee), but not regular salary if you give him the boot.
They might, however, still be on the hook for about a 700k chunk of his 4.2m signing bonus, but that'd only ring up to 2.2m instead of a 6.3m cap hit, thus saving them 4.1.
I think last year his base was only 3.3m, so this can be a little illustration how some of those total contract #'s you always see thrown around in the media can be inflated --- like those Haynesworth #'s.
Backloaded base is relatively meaningless.
I just saw a few #'s floating around the net, so don't take any of this as any kind of reliable source, but I've seen it mentioned that he had a seemingly backloaded 5.6m in salary coming to him, with kind of a funky 1.5m guaranteed.
You're on the hook for all guaranteed money (hence, the guarantee), but not regular salary if you give him the boot.
They might, however, still be on the hook for about a 700k chunk of his 4.2m signing bonus, but that'd only ring up to 2.2m instead of a 6.3m cap hit, thus saving them 4.1.
I think last year his base was only 3.3m, so this can be a little illustration how some of those total contract #'s you always see thrown around in the media can be inflated --- like those Haynesworth #'s.
Backloaded base is relatively meaningless.
Andy Herron
Footballguy
By cutting Ellis at this point in the season, the Cowboys do indeed save $4.15 million from his base salary.However, he will still count about $2.1 million on the cap due to $1.5 million in guarantees and a $600,000 signing bonus proration.The Cowboys could get some of that money back if Ellis signs with another team. Should another team sign Ellis for more than a $1.5 million total package, the Cowboys would not be obligated to pay the guaranteed bonus. Even if Ellis signs a contract for less than $1.5 million, the Cowboys would only have to make up the difference for this year.Had they been able to trade him they would have cleared $5.6 million from the cap, but there were obviously no takers at that price.I hope that helps.
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
Are you sure about this? I have not heard/seen this before.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Do you mean about the 1.5m thing?
That part's all over the net --- that's the 'funky 1.5m guaranteed' I referred to.
That part's all over the net --- that's the 'funky 1.5m guaranteed' I referred to.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
While we're talkin' cap, check out these devious Washington bastards abusing the crap out of it.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/02/...sen-cap-charge/
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/02/...sen-cap-charge/
Andy Herron
Footballguy
Yes. http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/news.cfm...27E008E39C2C189I think the dissolving of the old June 1 rule (by salary cap standards) plays a part in it. Next year being uncapped changed a lot in regards to how existing contracts play out when a player is moved or released this year.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Isn't this the last year of his deal?That June 1st rule doesn't seem too relevant, unless we're just talking about 2 different things.
Andy Herron
Footballguy
The June 1st rule no longer exists. It's only a matter of semantics regardless of the remaining year(s) of the contract. It's simply a matter of time and place.
gonzobill5
Footballguy
wow, now that's a loophole. So if I have this right, you could theoretically give a guy a 100 million dollar signing bonus spread out at 1 million per over 100 years and have the last 99 years voided. Guy would still get paid obviously, but you'd never have to worry about it hurting your cap space.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
No, it doesn't work like that on two points.
There ARE ways of abusing the system, but they've done a pretty thorough job of holding clubs responsible for cap money and baffling the more obvious routes for abuse.
First of all, there's a limit as to how many years you can amortize bonus --- I think it was 6, but now it's 5.
Although I welcome correction on the numerical details. You'll notice the Santana Moss extension was 5 years.
Secondly, you're always responsible for cap --- you can push it around from year to year, but you can't make it disappear while the guy's on your roster.
What happens when you void that deal is all the remaining bonus amortization accelerates into the current year.
So, when they cancel Santana's deal, they're immediately on the hook for the remaining 60% of the signing bonus cap figure, plus the normal 20%.
Fortunately, that would be in 2010 --- the uncapped year.
Oh, and I guess a third thing just pertaining to your example --- I know it's an extreme hypothetical for illustration, but I doubt even Snyder wants to drop $100m on one guy in one year.
There ARE ways of abusing the system, but they've done a pretty thorough job of holding clubs responsible for cap money and baffling the more obvious routes for abuse.
First of all, there's a limit as to how many years you can amortize bonus --- I think it was 6, but now it's 5.
Although I welcome correction on the numerical details. You'll notice the Santana Moss extension was 5 years.
Secondly, you're always responsible for cap --- you can push it around from year to year, but you can't make it disappear while the guy's on your roster.
What happens when you void that deal is all the remaining bonus amortization accelerates into the current year.
So, when they cancel Santana's deal, they're immediately on the hook for the remaining 60% of the signing bonus cap figure, plus the normal 20%.
Fortunately, that would be in 2010 --- the uncapped year.
Oh, and I guess a third thing just pertaining to your example --- I know it's an extreme hypothetical for illustration, but I doubt even Snyder wants to drop $100m on one guy in one year.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I suspect that Ellis had an atypical clause in his contact that makes this situation different than "regular" contrcats. From what I can tell, Ellis and the Cowboys modified his contract in 2007 and inserted some sort of $1.5 million settlement guarantee if he were to be released.That's different than most contract guarantees, signing bonuses, and roster bonuses as the money is due after the contract has been terminated. Therefore it makes sense that the Cowboys could recoup that money if he signed someplace else. Usually "guaranteed" money is not credited back to the salary cap when a player is released.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I believe that the CBA indicates that if teams elect to cut players that the post-June 1st rule changes when teams can account for salary cap hits.In your example, if Moss were cut after June 1st, the Skins would have been able to take the cap hit for his remaining signing bonus split evenly in 2009 and 2010. But since there is no salary cap for 2010, they would have to take the entire salary cap hit charge in 2009.
