San Francisco Recalls Three School Board Members - Heavily Dem City Realizes Board Too Woke For Even Them (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

I suspect “the driver’s seat”, a rather vague phrase within this context to begin with, is not really applicable here. 

It is kind of exactly what this thread is about.  The kind of people who would ban Lincoln and get recalled from being school board members.  Obviously not a large percentage of people yet as they were even rejected in San Franscisco, but the people teaching higher levels gender/women's studies or ethnic studies courses this is mainstream beliefs which is in New York Times best-selling books.  It is the kind of stuff which will creep into California schools during these mandatory classes that you are convinced everyone will sleep through.  

 

[djmich]

I can’t. Can you? 
I generally see it as another word for political correctness. 

Not really, which has been my point on how constructive a woke thread in isolation will be.

I will say that for me woke and PC are not the same.  Same family but typically woke conjures up images of people that are essentially in a trance.  Like zombies that indiscriminately eat people that also aren’t zombies.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Not really, which has been my point on how constructive a woke thread in isolation will be.

I will say that for me woke and PC are not the same.  Same family but typically woke conjures up images of people that are essentially in a trance.  Like zombies that indiscriminately eat people that also aren’t zombies.

I think it was IK in the other thread that brought up where words are now considered acts of aggression/hurtful (he said it better as usual).  I've said this as well, and I think that is a big piece of the puzzle to what Tim is not getting.   "PC" was a little more tame, then we starting getting into "microaggressions", and I think that is where it started morphing into what we are seeing more today.   What happened is that shift from what the person's intent behind a comment or action was to instead it was all about how it made the recipient feel.   

If I accidently trip somebody, that's OK.  If I purposely do it, I should be called out.     Similar, in the PC days if I said something wrong i'd be more likely to get a comment like "that wasn't very PC".  Now it's a microaggression, getting called out on SM, etc and it doesn't seem to matter what the intent of the person was.   To me that's the difference in tone I am seeing with the "woke" movement.  

 

[timschochet]

I think it was IK in the other thread that brought up where words are now considered acts of aggression/hurtful (he said it better as usual).  I've said this as well, and I think that is a big piece of the puzzle to what Tim is not getting.   "PC" was a little more tame, then we starting getting into "microaggressions", and I think that is where it started morphing into what we are seeing more today.   What happened is that shift from what the person's intent behind a comment or action was to instead it was all about how it made the recipient feel.   

If I accidently trip somebody, that's OK.  If I purposely do it, I should be called out.     Similar, in the PC days if I said something wrong i'd be more likely to get a comment like "that wasn't very PC".  Now it's a microaggression, getting called out on SM, etc and it doesn't seem to matter what the intent of the person was.   To me that's the difference in tone I am seeing with the "woke" movement.  

It’s not that I’m not getting it. It’s that I think Ivan and others are focusing too much on a few extremists and thinking that they represent the bulk of the movement.

The topic of this thread should be demonstrative evidence that Ivan is wrong. San Francisco is probably the most woke city in the USA. Yet it’s public would not put up with nonsense from a few radicals who went too far. This isn’t a bunch of conservatives who recalled those board members; it was voters who are pretty damn liberal themselves, and who generally approve of wokeism. So I don’t think you have to worry about extremism. It’s not about to dominate the woke movement, and never will. 

 

[timschochet]

To be fair, liberals spend too much time worrying about extremism among conservatives too. I’m guilty of it. Any time Marjorie Taylor Greene or Trump say something stupid, I’m imagining we’re all on the road to The Handmaid’s Tale: it’s irrational. Most conservatives, like most liberals, aren’t going to put up with too much extremist nonsense. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Just relaying my thoughts.   I think the tone I encountered changed with that sentiment of microagressions.   I think liberals are likely to not think woke is a big deal, or at the very least underestimate how much it's a driving issue with conservatives.     Even people like me who lean left socially are turning on stuff like this.   MAYBE what we saw in SF is some of that pushback, I will give you that point.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

To be fair, liberals spend too much time worrying about extremism among conservatives too. I’m guilty of it. Any time Marjorie Taylor Greene or Trump say something stupid, I’m imagining we’re all on the road to The Handmaid’s Tale: it’s irrational. Most conservatives, like most liberals, aren’t going to put up with too much extremist nonsense. 

Yes, if it's one person's comments.  However I had a similar thought a couple times seeing things coming out of Texas.  That's way more concernening.  

 

[timschochet]

Just relaying my thoughts.   I think the tone I encountered changed with that sentiment of microagressions.   I think liberals are likely to not think woke is a big deal, or at the very least underestimate how much it's a driving issue with conservatives.     Even people like me who lean left socially are turning on stuff like this.   MAYBE what we saw in SF is some of that pushback, I will give you that point.  

I’ve often brought up the Students for a Democratic Society. (SDS). I really think it’s a good analogy. In the early 60s they put out the Port Huron Statement, a sort of mission guide, which was pure Marxism. Then by the late 60s the SDS had hundreds of thousands of members and conservatives freaked out. They’re radical! They’re Marxists! Then a small group of radicals broke off from the SDS and formed the Weathermen, and conservatives freaked out even more. They’re terrorists! If you belong to the SDS, you’re a radical Marxist terrorist. 
 

But 99% of SDS members weren’t Marxist or Terrorists. They were just kids looking to end the Vietnam War and the SDS was there to organize them to protest. The minute the Vietnam War ended, so did the SDS. Their socialist leaders like Tom Hayden found they had no followers, because nobody really wanted a revolution anyhow. (John Lennon got it right.) 

So that’s what I think of Black Lives Matter, and the Woke movement, and all the other groups that progressives are involved with. There are radical leftists in the leadership positions, but the vast majority of those aligned with it are normal kids who just want to make things a little better. They’re not radical and they’ll never be. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I’ve often brought up the Students for a Democratic Society. (SDS). I really think it’s a good analogy. In the early 60s they put out the Port Huron Statement, a sort of mission guide, which was pure Marxism. Then by the late 60s the SDS had hundreds of thousands of members and conservatives freaked out. They’re radical! They’re Marxists! Then a small group of radicals broke off from the SDS and formed the Weathermen, and conservatives freaked out even more. They’re terrorists! If you belong to the SDS, you’re a radical Marxist terrorist. 
 

But 99% of SDS members weren’t Marxist or Terrorists. They were just kids looking to end the Vietnam War and the SDS was there to organize them to protest. The minute the Vietnam War ended, so did the SDS. Their socialist leaders like Tom Hayden found they had no followers, because nobody really wanted a revolution anyhow. (John Lennon got it right.) 

So that’s what I think of Black Lives Matter, and the Woke movement, and all the other groups that progressives are involved with. There are radical leftists in the leadership positions, but the vast majority of those aligned with it are normal kids who just want to make things a little better. They’re not radical and they’ll never be. 

You bring up an understandable POV as well.   I wonder how much this social media experiment we are living through plays into this equation.    Would some of those groups dissipated if they had the tech we have now?  

 

[jon_mx]

It’s not that I’m not getting it. It’s that I think Ivan and others are focusing too much on a few extremists and thinking that they represent the bulk of the movement.

The topic of this thread should be demonstrative evidence that Ivan is wrong. San Francisco is probably the most woke city in the USA. Yet it’s public would not put up with nonsense from a few radicals who went too far. This isn’t a bunch of conservatives who recalled those board members; it was voters who are pretty damn liberal themselves, and who generally approve of wokeism. So I don’t think you have to worry about extremism. It’s not about to dominate the woke movement, and never will. 

Nobody is saying it is the bulk of the movement.  But it is the upper echelons of the movement.  Those who teach the teachers at universities, those who write best-selling influential books, those who create teaching material or design programs for corporations.  This extreme wokism is very strong on college campuses, especially among those who have specialized ethnic and gender groups who deeply discuss essential topics about what tribe they are in and what their proper pronoun is.  

 

[jon_mx]

I’ve often brought up the Students for a Democratic Society. (SDS). I really think it’s a good analogy. In the early 60s they put out the Port Huron Statement, a sort of mission guide, which was pure Marxism. Then by the late 60s the SDS had hundreds of thousands of members and conservatives freaked out. They’re radical! They’re Marxists! Then a small group of radicals broke off from the SDS and formed the Weathermen, and conservatives freaked out even more. They’re terrorists! If you belong to the SDS, you’re a radical Marxist terrorist. 
 

But 99% of SDS members weren’t Marxist or Terrorists. They were just kids looking to end the Vietnam War and the SDS was there to organize them to protest. The minute the Vietnam War ended, so did the SDS. Their socialist leaders like Tom Hayden found they had no followers, because nobody really wanted a revolution anyhow. (John Lennon got it right.) 

So that’s what I think of Black Lives Matter, and the Woke movement, and all the other groups that progressives are involved with. There are radical leftists in the leadership positions, but the vast majority of those aligned with it are normal kids who just want to make things a little better. They’re not radical and they’ll never be.

And don't you see the exact same thing that the left does with white supremacy?  

 

[timschochet]

And don't you see the exact same thing that the left does with white supremacy?  

Yes. I acknowledged this in another post. Both sides tend to focus on the most extreme elements of the other side. I do it too. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yes. I acknowledged this in another post. Both sides tend to focus on the most extreme elements of the other side. I do it too. 

Did you say the same thing about the Tea Party?  I don't honestly remember your thoughts on those folks -- you and I have similar views on populism so I assume you probably weren't a fan, but did you view them as a threat?  If the answer is no you didn't, do you think that was a mistake, considering what we know now about how the Republican party turned out?

Now do the same with these people . . .  

 

[timschochet]

Did you say the same thing about the Tea Party?  I don't honestly remember your thoughts on those folks -- you and I have similar views on populism so I assume you probably weren't a fan, but did you view them as a threat?  If the answer is no you didn't, do you think that was a mistake, considering what we know now about how the Republican party turned out?

Now do the same with these people . . .  

I regarded then as a threat yes. But not a threat of extremism; to me, populism and nativism are different kinds of threats. They represent to me a sort of “dumbing down” of the voters. The Tea Party was never going to impose The Handmaids Tale; it was more like what happens when voters choose to elect a bunch of Archie Bunkers. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I regarded then as a threat yes. But not a threat of extremism; to me, populism and nativism are different kinds of threats. They represent to me a sort of “dumbing down” of the voters. The Tea Party was never going to impose The Handmaids Tale; it was more like what happens when voters choose to elect a bunch of Archie Bunkers. 

Okay.  But then you do understand how a small but very loud group of extremists can take over a major institution, right?

I sincerely don't understand how a person can live through what happened on the right and not see the same thing happening now on the left.  It's like watching someone casually hit CRTL-C CTRL-V.

 

[MAC_32]

Okay.  But then you do understand how a small but very loud group of extremists can take over a major institution, right?

I sincerely don't understand how a person can live through what happened on the right and not see the same thing happening now on the left.  It's like watching someone casually hit CRTL-C CTRL-V.

How much tangible influence does this wing on the left have on policy? I'm constantly reminded of PCU with most of what hits my orbit, so drawing current actions back to a film made 3 decades ago doesn't leave me uncomfortable. I was just a kid then, so have no political basis to draw back to though. That contrasts to what I've experienced on the right dating back to Newt.

 

[timschochet]

Okay.  But then you do understand how a small but very loud group of extremists can take over a major institution, right?

I sincerely don't understand how a person can live through what happened on the right and not see the same thing happening now on the left.  It's like watching someone casually hit CRTL-C CTRL-V.

Well first off the Tea Party never actually took over the Republican Party. Sure they got one of their own as President, but as a policy maker Trump was pretty ineffective: the only major legislation he got done was a tax cut that the more establishment Republicans had been pushing for. None of his nativist red meat was accomplished. But even so, I would certainly hope that Democrats can avoid nominating a liberal version of Trump. 

Can extremists take over the Democratic Party? History suggests they can’t. The Democratic Party is controlled largely by unions and corporate donors, it always has been in modern times, and these groups aren’t friendly to extremism. Within the Democratic primaries, the decisive voting bloc are southern blacks, who almost always reject progressive candidates. 

Now the more vital question for this thread is: can a small group of loud extremists take over a broad political movement like wokeism? They can, but the point of my SDS example was that it doesn’t last. The rank and file of the movement aren’t there for the extremism and will ultimately reject it. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well first off the Tea Party never actually took over the Republican Party. Sure they got one of their own as President,

I think you and I are experiencing reality very differently.  If you don't see the GOP as very firmly in the grasp of Trumpism, I don't know what to tell you.  We don't share enough common understanding to have a productive conversation.

(It's okay to agree to disagree, is what I'm saying).

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Well first off the Tea Party never actually took over the Republican Party. Sure they got one of their own as President, but as a policy maker Trump was pretty ineffective: the only major legislation he got done was a tax cut that the more establishment Republicans had been pushing for. None of his nativist red meat was accomplished. But even so, I would certainly hope that Democrats can avoid nominating a liberal version of Trump. 

Can extremists take over the Democratic Party? History suggests they can’t. The Democratic Party is controlled largely by unions and corporate donors, it always has been in modern times, and these groups aren’t friendly to extremism. Within the Democratic primaries, the decisive voting bloc are southern blacks, who almost always reject progressive candidates. 

Now the more vital question for this thread is: can a small group of loud extremists take over a broad political movement like wokeism? They can, but the point of my SDS example was that it doesn’t last. The rank and file of the movement aren’t there for the extremism and will ultimately reject it. 

The blue dog union support is gone Tim. You’re talking about public sector unions specifically the various teachers unions who are the ones advocating for these policies. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The blue dog union support is gone Tim. You’re talking about public sector unions specifically the various teachers unions who are the ones advocating for these policies. 

This is a good point.  The days when the Teamsters and UAW were calling the shots ended decades ago. 

Public sector unions are on thin ice as well.  The pandemic and woke politics have greatly weakened teachers unions, and the George Floyd protests certainly took some wind out of the sails of police unions.  

 

[timschochet]

I think you and I are experiencing reality very differently.  If you don't see the GOP as very firmly in the grasp of Trumpism, I don't know what to tell you.  We don't share enough common understanding to have a productive conversation.

(It's okay to agree to disagree, is what I'm saying).

Yea the GOP has certainly moved more towards nativism and populism. But that’s a ground up trend; the elites in the party  don’t like it at all. It’s the opposite of your concern with woke. 

 

[timschochet]

This is a good point.  The days when the Teamsters and UAW were calling the shots ended decades ago. 

Public sector unions are on thin ice as well.  The pandemic and woke politics have greatly weakened teachers unions, and the George Floyd protests certainly took some wind out of the sails of police unions.  

This could be true and it’s something to consider. But it still doesn’t mean that extremism is going to take over the Democratic party. 

 

[Boston]

This could be true and it’s something to consider. But it still doesn’t mean that extremism is going to take over the Democratic party. 

You will get your answer when Pelosi hangs them up...I fully expect a fierce battle over the direction of the party to replace the vacuum she will be leaving, and AOC and company will have a big say in this...at that point (and it is coming soon) you will have the answer as to just how extreme they are willing to go. 

 

[djmich]

I think you and I are experiencing reality very differently.  If you don't see the GOP as very firmly in the grasp of Trumpism, I don't know what to tell you.  We don't share enough common understanding to have a productive conversation.

(It's okay to agree to disagree, is what I'm saying).

@timschochet I want to say first that you’re a good guy, heart in the right place and all that.

But, if feels like you often start out with these undefined expansive positions that you’re certain are right.  And then as the expansion proves impossible to defend and ill conceived, you begin withdrawing troops and defending smaller territories.  And then you are prone to indiscriminately bombing your own troops as a defensive strategy.  Until finally you’re left defending some small new territory that nobody wanted to fight for to begin with, but feeling victorious.
 

Overly punitive and not all the time, just my observation in general here and stemming from the woke/cancel culture to now only woke thread.

 

[djmich]

This could be true and it’s something to consider. But it still doesn’t mean that extremism is going to take over the Democratic party. 

Here’s an example.  Ok, you now have your corner to defend that is impossible to refute..

 

[timschochet]

@timschochet I want to say first that you’re a good guy, heart in the right place and all that.

But, if feels like you often start out with these undefined expansive positions that you’re certain are right.  And then as the expansion proves impossible to defend and ill conceived, you begin withdrawing troops and defending smaller territories.  And then you are prone to indiscriminately bombing your own troops as a defensive strategy.  Until finally you’re left defending some small new territory that nobody wanted to fight for to begin with, but feeling victorious.
 

Overly punitive and not all the time, just my observation in general here and stemming from the woke/cancel culture to now only woke thread.

Well first off I don’t feel victorious. Nor do I engage in these discussions to feel victorious. I enjoy the back and forth but I don’t view it as a game that I need to win. When someone makes a good point that I didn’t think of, or provides a fact I was unaware of, it often causes me to reconsider some aspect of my position. Sometimes it causes me to completely reverse my position. That’s something I think all reasonable people should do. 
I have core principles that will never change. But they’re pretty basic, having to do with decency, respect for others, freedom, individual rights, love for the USA, etc. But other than that I’m pretty open to both conservative and liberal ideas. Currently I’m generally on the liberal side for a variety of reasons, but that could easily change, depending. 

 

[djmich]

Well first off I don’t feel victorious. Nor do I engage in these discussions to feel victorious. I enjoy the back and forth but I don’t view it as a game that I need to win. When someone makes a good point that I didn’t think of, or provides a fact I was unaware of, it often causes me to reconsider some aspect of my position. Sometimes it causes me to completely reverse my position. That’s something I think all reasonable people should do. 
I have core principles that will never change. But they’re pretty basic, having to do with decency, respect for others, freedom, individual rights, love for the USA, etc. But other than that I’m pretty open to both conservative and liberal ideas. Currently I’m generally on the liberal side for a variety of reasons, but that could easily change, depending. 

That’s fair, victorious probably not the right characterization to begin with, maybe more if a defense.  And I agree that you have core principles and open to discussing them, which is great.  

This example that I quoted above though is one I was thinking of.  You acknowledge it could be true and something to consider.  But seemingly without considering it you offer a defense that sorta means nothing.

It would be akin to me in a covid thread saying the vaxx could prove effective in making sure I don’t die from covid…but me not getting it still doesn’t mean I will die from covid.

The former part of my statement about the effectiveness is what matters, the latter sounds like I just dismissed truly considering the point only to offer some defense that is impossible to refute.

This could be true and it’s something to consider. But it still doesn’t mean that extremism is going to take over the Democratic party. 

 

[ekbeats]

I don’t quite know where to post this.  It could go in the “Free speech” thread, “Woke” thread…

When a parent at a school board meeting highlights a board member’s hypocrisy on masking, the board turns off her mic and then tries to have a police officer take her away.

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1495421863245361156?s=20&t=n69sTGGwzbcld-CWkxcq1Q

 

[BladeRunner]

You will get your answer when Pelosi hangs them up...I fully expect a fierce battle over the direction of the party to replace the vacuum she will be leaving, and AOC and company will have a big say in this...at that point (and it is coming soon) you will have the answer as to just how extreme they are willing to go. 

And just to remind everyone how far they are willing to go, AOC just proposed that Tucker Carlson should be deplatformed the other day.

So, how far will they go?  I think it's safe to say there will be no limit.

 

[The Big Donkey]

I don’t quite know where to post this.  It could go in the “Free speech” thread, “Woke” thread…

When a parent at a school board meeting highlights a board member’s hypocrisy on masking, the board turns off her mic and then tries to have a police officer take her away.

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1495421863245361156?s=20&t=n69sTGGwzbcld-CWkxcq1Q

yikes, glad the police officer didn't put hands on her.    absurd behavior from whomever that was on the board that needed police involvement.