Santana with 16Ks (1 Viewer)

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

17 through 8 after striking out the side.

3 outs to go. team only up 1-0.

 

[Limp Ditka]

TV broadcast is saying he's done.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

Here comes Nathan. Damnit. Fans booing.

 

[wilked]

It was the only reasonable thing to do...

 

[cobalt_27]

It was the only reasonable thing to do...

Reasonable?Inexcusable would be more like it.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

112 pitches, gotta let him try to finish it.

They deserve what they get if Nathan blows it

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

Nathan gets bailed out on a called third strike that was a foot off the plate.

 

[Pat Patriot]

112 is not an exhorbitant number of pitches. How do you not let him take a run at a tie of the all time record?

 

[wilked]

If he had 18 or 19, leave him in. 17, take him out, bring in your closer

 

[cobalt_27]

112 is not an exhorbitant number of pitches. How do you not let him take a run at a tie of the all time record?

I dunno, ask wilked. He seems to think this absurd move was...reasonable.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

112 is not an exhorbitant number of pitches. How do you not let him take a run at a tie of the all time record?

I dunno, ask wilked. He seems to think this absurd move was...reasonable.

 

[wilked]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I leave it up to him.

 

[cobalt_27]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

 

[wilked]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Yeah, you relieve him in each case, easy.

 

[cobalt_27]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Yes and yes. See how easy this is? But, he goes out to start the 9th and go from there. This isn't rocket science.

 

[wilked]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Yes and yes. See how easy this is? But, he goes out to start the 9th and go from there. This isn't rocket science.

so given that in all likelihood (90+% chance) you will be relieving him, why would you not instead start a clean inning with your closer? Again, the only reason not to pull him out of there is the tiny chance he ties the record

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Why let him go for the record? If you are at risk to both lose the game and lose the player to injury, isn't preserving the victory more important any immortality that Santana might achieve?

 

[cobalt_27]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Why let him go for the record? If you are at risk to both lose the game and lose the player to injury, isn't preserving the victory more important any immortality that Santana might achieve?

It's unbelievable to me what total sissies everyone has suddenly become over this pitch count stuff. It's 112. I think Johan Santana's arm can deal with that kind of a load. And, I don't think his arm was going to fall off at 125. Unbelievable how soft and sensitive everyone has turned suddenly.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

I'm sorry Wilked and in no means think I am ragging on you but please explain "save his health"Remember starting pitchers used to toss 300+ innings. I sure do. Why didn't Drysdale, Carlton, Ryan,etc...ever have their arm blow up? These guys used to toss many many innings. Save leaders would have maybe 15-17 if they were lucky. How many 275+ IP pitchers do you see anymore? 250+?

Even Bert Blyleven has questioned the so called 100 pitch rule. Why 100 he asks? You think it is a health issue then please tell me how the human body knows 100. Does the brain and arm get together and say "Hey, you're at 100. Any more and I'll make you fall off" Face it. The 100 pitch rule is a made up bull#### rule of thumb

Gardy only has one season left before Terry Ryan trades Santana for a class A back-up catcher, a long reliever with a stellar 5.50 ERA, and a returning player from Japan. He will then try to convince the Twins fans that this move is alright because we can get a Sidney Ponson or Ramon Ortiz, Jeff Cirillo, Ruben Sierra, Batista, etc... type player. Trying to find that jewel in the rough he calls it.

If Santan had thrown 15 more pitches would his arm blow up? Seriously. You think hios arm is going to know the difference between 107 and 117?

Let's be real. The Twins are NOT going to the playoffs. If they did they wouldn't go anywhere anyway. Gardy has that stellar 6-15 post-season record. He couldn't win with an MVP, Cy Young, and B.A. leader last year. Not ONE game.

 

[wilked]

there is very strong data to show why there are pitch counts. I will see if I can dig up the data...

 

[cobalt_27]

112 pitches is just a number. 112 hi-leverage pitches is much more taxing then 112 pitches in a blowout game.

If the only reason to keep him in is that he is close to tying a record (and that happens only if he strikes out the side), then I think you take him out.

Relieving him gave them the best chance to win the game

The guy *struck out the side* in the 8th. He hardly looked gassed. Relieving him clearly did not give them the best chance to win the game. Nathan nearly blew the whole thing up.

Nathan got the save. We will never know what Santana would have done.Pulling a pitcher at that point is done for two reasons - save his health, and win the game. The latter part worked out just fine for the twins. The former, we will never know, but IMO no reason to risk his health to chase the record. Again, if it was 18 or 19 I leave him in for the sake of the record, at 17, no way.

If you let him go back in and he gives up a leadoff double, do you relieve him then? What if he has a 10 pitch AB against the first guy, who eventually pops up?

Yes and yes. See how easy this is? But, he goes out to start the 9th and go from there. This isn't rocket science.

so given that in all likelihood (90+% chance) you will be relieving him, why would you not instead start a clean inning with your closer? Again, the only reason not to pull him out of there is the tiny chance he ties the record

He DESTROYED three straight batters in the 8th. In other words, he was kicking everyone's ### all game long. He was the best chance for them to win. That the second best option came in and shakily finished the game with the save does make him the best option. You bring in Santana because he was killing everybody and he has a shot at the record. Until he proved either of those two in error, you leave him in to chew 'em up and spit 'em out.

 

[wilked]

You bring in Santana because he was killing everybody and he has a shot at the record. Until he proved either of those two in error, you leave him in to chew 'em up and spit 'em out.

with a one run lead there was no margin for errorLooks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one

 

[Jules Winnfield]

You bring in Santana because he was killing everybody and he has a shot at the record. Until he proved either of those two in error, you leave him in to chew 'em up and spit 'em out.

with a one run lead there was no margin for errorLooks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one

Margin of error for what?This team isn't going to the playoffs.

Let Santana pitch.

I'm sorry but if some of you guys were coaches you would have pulled Morris in game 7 of the '91 series wouldn't you?

 

[cobalt_27]

You bring in Santana because he was killing everybody and he has a shot at the record. Until he proved either of those two in error, you leave him in to chew 'em up and spit 'em out.

with a one run lead there was no margin for errorLooks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one

Margin of error for what?This team isn't going to the playoffs.

Let Santana pitch.

I'm sorry but if some of you guys were coaches you would have pulled Morris in game 7 of the '91 series wouldn't you?

Pansies, I swear. Just a bunch of limp junk out there these days.

 

[ThisGuy]

Let him start the 9th, but have Nathan ready.

if a guy gets on, you bring in your closer.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

You bring in Santana because he was killing everybody and he has a shot at the record. Until he proved either of those two in error, you leave him in to chew 'em up and spit 'em out.

with a one run lead there was no margin for errorLooks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one

Margin of error for what?This team isn't going to the playoffs.

Let Santana pitch.

I'm sorry but if some of you guys were coaches you would have pulled Morris in game 7 of the '91 series wouldn't you?

Pansies, I swear. Just a bunch of limp junk out there these days.

Blyleven has talked about the fact that there are arm problems because these pitchers don't throw enough.They work out but that isn't helping them in arm strength to throw a baseball.

In his day a SP might toss 8, 9, 10 IP and then it was

Rest for a day

Soft toss for two

Long toss for another

Ready to pitch again