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Saquon Barkley vs Gale Sayers rookie season (1 Viewer)

Z

ZenoRazon

Footballguy
Look at those thighs....how many times did we hear that?

Look at the impact Barkley a rookie made on the 2018 season despite playing on a sucky team.

Rushing yards....1307...5.0 APC...11td;s

Receiving  yards...721...4td's

A rookie with...2028 yards...HUGE thighs...and 15td's

We see him in commercials,  he's already a "star" in pro football, forget the Giants suck, so what.

Then there was Gale Sayers, a national leading long jumper in HS (24-11), younger bro of world class sprinter Roger Sayers. Gale was ..."The Kansas Comet"

His rookie season.

Rushing yards...867...5.2APC...14td's

Receiving yards...507....6td's

Kickoff return yards....660...1td

Punt return yards....238....1td

A rookie with...2272 yards....22 td,

Sayers scored more, better APC, did more things.

What happens is without actually watching a guy play in his day and the impact he' makes in that time, you really can't get it. Yes Barkley is a stud, a great young player wih a bright future..but...Gale Sayers was something else "special" would work as would "unique".  The NFL had never seen anything like him before, 22 TD;s from a rookie?  Over 2000 combined yards as a rookie? 

Keep in mind all of Sayers numbers in a 14 game season. Safe to say if 16 games at least another 200 yards (combined) and 2/3 TD's.

Thoughts?

 
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And Gale played on a "sucky" team too.

Tough to compare players from different eras I think as the game is very different.

Sayers was a special player,Barkley is too.

 
Rubi said:
And Gale played on a "sucky" team too.

Tough to compare players from different eras I think as the game is very different.

Sayers was a special player,Barkley is too.
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I never agree with this......game is very different.  The team that hits the hardest, is the most physical,  makes the least mistakes, will win.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Adding kick and punt return yards as if it’s comparable doesn’t make sense to me.
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It's not about adding it's about one guy had more talents, he wasn't as limited.

And, as just running the ball Sayers had a better APC and more TD;s

 
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900 of Sayers' yards were via kickoff and punt returns.  He was getting 20 yards before even making contact with anyone.  Hardly fair adding those yards when comparing the two. Barkley had a legit 2000 yards from scrimmage while Sayers had less than 1400.

I'm too young to have ever seen Sayers play, but my dad always said that he was best player he ever saw.  It would be interesting to see what kind of role he'd have in this day and age. He was under 200 lbs, so I doubt he'd be an every down back.   Probably returning kicks and being a third down back.  He's 15 lbs lighter than Alvin Kamara, so I doubt he'd get the workload that the Saints give A.K.   He would definitely be fun to watch.

 
ZenoRazon said:
I never agree with this......game is very different.  The team that hits the hardest, is the most physical,  makes the least mistakes, will win.
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I'm not disagreeing with that. But the game itself has changed. The way it's played. The safety rules. I've been watching The NFL since the early 60's. It's not the same game. Players have different skill sets now because the pace and style of play are so much different. That's why it's tough to compare players from different eras. Sayers was great. Barkley will be great.

 
Gotta love the Kansas comet (Rock chalk!) 

But the better comp to Barkley is Adrian Peterson. Barkley might be the better receiver. Vikings were a better team with worse receivers and QB, but also had Chester Taylor (who also had over 1k yards from scrimmage) 

 
A far better comp than Barkley to Sayers' rookie season is Maurice Jones-Drew. Rookie season he had over 2200 total yards, 16 TDs, and 5.7 YPC rushing.

Unlike Sayers, with MJD we don't have the haze of mythology to obscure the fact that he really didn't have an exceptional career. 

 
CalBear said:
A far better comp than Barkley to Sayers' rookie season is Maurice Jones-Drew. Rookie season he had over 2200 total yards, 16 TDs, and 5.7 YPC rushing.

Unlike Sayers, with MJD we don't have the haze of mythology to obscure the fact that he really didn't have an exceptional career. 
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Was this including kick returns or something?

 
fruity pebbles said:
You say that like Barkley couldn’t return kicks. Very different game today.

Kick return
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He could, just too valuable to chance it.

We all get the different game thing but that can't change what we actually saw.

I don't think he would have been as good at returning kicks as Sayers. Sayers far faster vs his opposition that Barkley is today.

 
JuniorNB said:
900 of Sayers' yards were via kickoff and punt returns.  He was getting 20 yards before even making contact with anyone.  Hardly fair adding those yards when comparing the two. Barkley had a legit 2000 yards from scrimmage while Sayers had less than 1400.

I'm too young to have ever seen Sayers play, but my dad always said that he was best player he ever saw.  It would be interesting to see what kind of role he'd have in this day and age. He was under 200 lbs, so I doubt he'd be an every down back.   Probably returning kicks and being a third down back.  He's 15 lbs lighter than Alvin Kamara, so I doubt he'd get the workload that the Saints give A.K.   He would definitely be fun to watch.
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Sayers played in two less games, had far less carries and far less receptions but had superior averages per rush/reception.

Sayers had 20 non kick returns TD's with far less chances than Barkley had who had 15 TD's.

If he played today at 198*** he'd be the fastest RB in the NFL and still a great return man and RB but used more in the passing game. Doubt we see any line banging anymore.

I bet your dad (ask him) put Sayers in a different category than Jim Brown like I did.  Brown a power back, Sayers a speed back, not that Brown didn't have speed just not Sayers level jets.

*** I never bought that, I do believe he was closer to 205-207.

 
Rubi said:
I'm not disagreeing with that. But the game itself has changed. The way it's played. The safety rules. I've been watching The NFL since the early 60's. It's not the same game. Players have different skill sets now because the pace and style of play are so much different. That's why it's tough to compare players from different eras. Sayers was great. Barkley will be great.
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Great to talk with someone who actually saw these guys play.

Yes different game so we have to go with.....dominance of era.

 
CalBear said:
A far better comp than Barkley to Sayers' rookie season is Maurice Jones-Drew. Rookie season he had over 2200 total yards, 16 TDs, and 5.7 YPC rushing.

Unlike Sayers, with MJD we don't have the haze of mythology to obscure the fact that he really didn't have an exceptional career. 
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Mythology?

 
-OZ- said:
Gotta love the Kansas comet (Rock chalk!) 

But the better comp to Barkley is Adrian Peterson. Barkley might be the better receiver. Vikings were a better team with worse receivers and QB, but also had Chester Taylor (who also had over 1k yards from scrimmage) 
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There was talk of Sayers in another thread, so...........

 
The huge difference between Sayers and Barkley is this....

The NFL hadn't had time to see that many great RB's prior to 1965?  Very few really speedy, fast, elusive RB's back then for the obvious reasons.

A half dozen or so.

While there have been TONS of great RB's from Sayers to Barkley.  Barkley...just another great RB....today.  While Sayers totally stood out.

 
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Sayers had his first 1000 yard season the following year, he became the 20th RB to have a 1000 season (some had a few like Brown). 

Putting just numbers aside.

It was the way he was doing things, he was amazing at making wanna be tacklers miss and he was just....WOW~~~  Some of his runs left you.....that did not just happen.

Seen a lot of football,  but have never seen anyone run away from defenders like Sayers did. Brown a bully, Sanders more herky jerky, but closest thing to Sayers.

 
CalBear said:
Yes, just as Zeno's doing with Sayers' rookie season. 
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Returning kicks was a HUGE part of what Sayers was about.  That can't be ignored.

As just a runner/receiver Sayers avg more a rush/reception and while less touchs he scored more.

What we saw from Sayers in 1965 was totally off the charts, totally amazing, incredible.

1965: Rookie season

Sayers was drafted by the Chicago Bears in the first round, fourth overall, in the 1965 NFL Draft, and was also picked fifth overall by the Kansas City Chiefs of the American Football League in the AFL draft. He decided that all things being equal, he would rather play in Chicago, and so after consulting his wife he chose to sign with George Halas's Bears.[4] In his rookie year, he scored an NFL-record 22 touchdowns: 14 rushing, six receiving, and one each on punt and kickoff returns. He gained 2,272 all-purpose yards, a record for an NFL rookie, with 1,371 of them coming from scrimmage. Sayers averaged 5.2 yards per rush and 17.5 yards per reception. His return averages were 14.9 yards per punt return and a league-high 31.4 yards per kickoff return.[17]

Against the Minnesota Vikings on October 17, Sayers carried 13 times for 64 yards and a touchdown; caught four passes for 63 yards and two touchdowns; and had a 98-yard kickoff return touchdown in the 45–37 Bears victory.[18][19] He was the last NFL player to score a rushing, receiving, and kickoff return touchdown in the same game until Tyreek Hill accomplished the feat over fifty years later, in 2016.[20] Bears coach Halas lauded Sayers after the game, saying, "I don't ever remember seeing a rookie back who was as good," and deemed his talents equal to former Bears greats Red Grange and George McAfee. "And remember," said Halas, "we used to call George 'One-Play McAfee'."[21] On December 12, Sayers tied Ernie Nevers' and Dub Jones' record for touchdowns in a single game, scoring six in a 61–20 victory over the San Francisco 49ers that was played in muddy conditions at the Chicago Cubs' Wrigley Field.[22][23] He accounted for 326 yards in the game: 113 rushing, 89 receiving, and 134 on punt returns.[24] Sayers was the consensus choice for NFL Rookie of the Year honors from the AP,[25] UPI,[26] and NEA.[27]

 
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ZenoRazon said:
Returning kicks was a HUGE part of what Sayers was about.  That can't be ignored.

As just a runner/receiver Sayers avg more a rush/reception and while less touchs he scored more.

What we saw from Sayers in 1965 was totally off the charts, totally amazing, incredible.

1965: Rookie season

Sayers was drafted by the Chicago Bears in the first round, fourth overall, in the 1965 NFL Draft, and was also picked fifth overall by the Kansas City Chiefs of the American Football League in the AFL draft. He decided that all things being equal, he would rather play in Chicago, and so after consulting his wife he chose to sign with George Halas's Bears.[4] In his rookie year, he scored an NFL-record 22 touchdowns: 14 rushing, six receiving, and one each on punt and kickoff returns. He gained 2,272 all-purpose yards, a record for an NFL rookie, with 1,371 of them coming from scrimmage. Sayers averaged 5.2 yards per rush and 17.5 yards per reception. His return averages were 14.9 yards per punt return and a league-high 31.4 yards per kickoff return.[17]

Against the Minnesota Vikings on October 17, Sayers carried 13 times for 64 yards and a touchdown; caught four passes for 63 yards and two touchdowns; and had a 98-yard kickoff return touchdown in the 45–37 Bears victory.[18][19] He was the last NFL player to score a rushing, receiving, and kickoff return touchdown in the same game until Tyreek Hill accomplished the feat over fifty years later, in 2016.[20] Bears coach Halas lauded Sayers after the game, saying, "I don't ever remember seeing a rookie back who was as good," and deemed his talents equal to former Bears greats Red Grange and George McAfee. "And remember," said Halas, "we used to call George 'One-Play McAfee'."[21] On December 12, Sayers tied Ernie Nevers' and Dub Jones' record for touchdowns in a single game, scoring six in a 61–20 victory over the San Francisco 49ers that was played in muddy conditions at the Chicago Cubs' Wrigley Field.[22][23] He accounted for 326 yards in the game: 113 rushing, 89 receiving, and 134 on punt returns.[24] Sayers was the consensus choice for NFL Rookie of the Year honors from the AP,[25] UPI,[26] and NEA.[27]
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Jones-Drew was drafted by the Jacksonville Jaguars in the second round, 60th overall, in the 2006 NFL Draft. In his rookie year, he scored 16 TDs; 13 rushing, 2 receiving, and one on a kickoff return. He gained 2,237 all-purpose yards, with 1,377 of them coming from scrimmage. Jones-Drew averaged 5.7 yards per rush and 9.5 yards per reception. His return averages were 13.0 yards per punt return and 27.7 yards per kickoff return. 

Against the Indianapolis Colts on September 24, Jones-Drew carried 13 times for 103 yards, had 4 receptions for 32 yards and a TD, and returned 4 kicks for 109 yards. Later in the season, also against Indianapolis, Jones-Drew carried 15 times for 166 yards and 2 TDs, caught one pass for 15 yards, had two kick returns for 109 yards and a TD, and another punt return for 13 yards.

 
CalBear said:
Jones-Drew was drafted by the Jacksonville Jaguars in the second round, 60th overall, in the 2006 NFL Draft. In his rookie year, he scored 16 TDs; 13 rushing, 2 receiving, and one on a kickoff return. He gained 2,237 all-purpose yards, with 1,377 of them coming from scrimmage. Jones-Drew averaged 5.7 yards per rush and 9.5 yards per reception. His return averages were 13.0 yards per punt return and 27.7 yards per kickoff return. 

Against the Indianapolis Colts on September 24, Jones-Drew carried 13 times for 103 yards, had 4 receptions for 32 yards and a TD, and returned 4 kicks for 109 yards. Later in the season, also against Indianapolis, Jones-Drew carried 15 times for 166 yards and 2 TDs, caught one pass for 15 yards, had two kick returns for 109 yards and a TD, and another punt return for 13 yards.
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Sayers with more TD's in two less games.

Far superior in punt and KO returns.

A far better avg receiving 17.5 vs 9.5

More long runs in all phases.

What are you looking at?

 
JohnnyU said:
Hayes had 2 great seasons, 3 good seasons, and 2 mediocre seasons, and 4 bad seasons. 
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He was just a speed receiver, and for his first five seasons he was all pro twice, 4 pro bowls and scored a lot of TD's and ran back 3 or 4 punts to score.  Today he'd still blow by defenders and burn Tyreek in a 40.

Once his jets begin to cool he lost his big advantage.

 
ZenoRazon said:
He was just a speed receiver, and for his first five seasons he was all pro twice, 4 pro bowls and scored a lot of TD's and ran back 3 or 4 punts to score.  Today he'd still blow by defenders and burn Tyreek in a 40.

Once his jets begin to cool he lost his big advantage.
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My point was that he didn't exactly sustain greatness as a football player. 

 
JohnnyU said:
My point was that he didn't exactly sustain greatness as a football player. 
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I think with all that track and football by the time he was pushing 27ish he had burnt himself out.  He ran a ton of races and was a college RB.

But, he did enought to be in the HOF.

 
I guess you're comparing numbers, but the players aren't very similar.  Sayers was a shifty, speed back and phenomenal in the open field -- simply awesome as a kick returner.  He wasn't a power back, but didn't need to be.  In his era, RBs weren't used as pass receivers much either.  Jim Brown was the standard.  Sayers was an all-time great, no-doubt HOFer.  Barkley had a good year and could match that with a few more.

 
daveR said:
I guess you're comparing numbers, but the players aren't very similar.  Sayers was a shifty, speed back and phenomenal in the open field -- simply awesome as a kick returner.  He wasn't a power back, but didn't need to be.  In his era, RBs weren't used as pass receivers much either.  Jim Brown was the standard.  Sayers was an all-time great, no-doubt HOFer.  Barkley had a good year and could match that with a few more.
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We were talking about Sayers in another thread.  I don't think some here are old enought to really get him.   They do know Barkley. so.........

 
ZenoRazon said:
He was just a speed receiver, and for his first five seasons he was all pro twice, 4 pro bowls and scored a lot of TD's and ran back 3 or 4 punts to score.  Today he'd still blow by defenders and burn Tyreek in a 40.

Once his jets begin to cool he lost his big advantage.
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JohnnyU said:
My point was that he didn't exactly sustain greatness as a football player. 
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ZenoRazon said:
I think with all that track and football by the time he was pushing 27ish he had burnt himself out.  He ran a ton of races and was a college RB.

But, he did enought to be in the HOF.
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Hayes revolutionized football because he couldn’t be covered one-on-on and he singlehandedly changed the game, becoming the reason NFL teams started implementing zone coverage. 

I though you two knew your football?  :P

 
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Listening to an interview with Barkley on ESPN2. When asked what his best accomplishments were this year, he said having a daughter and fulfilling a lifelong dream of buying his mother a house. When asked about his performance on the field, he hemmed and hawed and said he had a decent season and made a lot of mistakes. He came across as the polar opposite of his teammate OBJ and is a total non-diva.

:thumbup:

 
Anarchy99 said:
Listening to an interview with Barkley on ESPN2. When asked what his best accomplishments were this year, he said having a daughter and fulfilling a lifelong dream of buying his mother a house. When asked about his performance on the field, he hemmed and hawed and said he had a decent season and made a lot of mistakes. He came across as the polar opposite of his teammate OBJ and is a total non-diva.

:thumbup:
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That is very refreshing to read.

 
JuniorNB said:
900 of Sayers' yards were via kickoff and punt returns.  He was getting 20 yards before even making contact with anyone.  Hardly fair adding those yards when comparing the two. Barkley had a legit 2000 yards from scrimmage while Sayers had less than 1400.

I'm too young to have ever seen Sayers play, but my dad always said that he was best player he ever saw.  It would be interesting to see what kind of role he'd have in this day and age. He was under 200 lbs, so I doubt he'd be an every down back.   Probably returning kicks and being a third down back.  He's 15 lbs lighter than Alvin Kamara, so I doubt he'd get the workload that the Saints give A.K.   He would definitely be fun to watch.
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I would venture a guess that if Sayers played today he would be heavier (better training and nutrition) and would be similar to Kamara in size.  He still probably doesn't get a workhorse level of usage but he would likely be similar in usage to Kamara.  I think that is a great comp when looking at usage rates. 

 
Billy Sims rookie year in Detroit was very comparable.

1303 rushing yards 13 TDs, 621 receiving yards 3 TDs,

First 3 years 3 Pro-Bowls..4th year career over. Sims would have been one of the all time greats had knee injuries not derailed his career.

 
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As for the topic, since 1960,  there have been 32 other rookie RBs that averaged more YFS per game in a season than Sayers did (with at least 8 games played) who scored at least 10 combined TD.

Here are the Top 10 . . .

Eric Dickerson - 138.25
Edgerrin James - 133.69
Ezekiel Elliott - 132.93
Saquon Barkley - 126.75
Don Woods - 125.92
Marcus Allen - 122.00
Doug Martin - 120.38
Billy Sims - 120.25
George Rogers - 120.00
Ottis Anderson - 119.56

If folks want to give Sayers some props for also returning kicks, so be it. But in this day and age, returning kicks can have more of a negative connotation than a positive one. Many teams now look at returners as players that are less valuable or disposable compared to other starters. Often times teams won't risk injuries to starters on either side of the ball by having someone return kicks.

 
-OZ- said:
Gotta love the Kansas comet (Rock chalk!) 

But the better comp to Barkley is Adrian Peterson. Barkley might be the better receiver. Vikings were a better team with worse receivers and QB, but also had Chester Taylor (who also had over 1k yards from scrimmage) 
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Might be? Barkley just caught 91/721/4 as a rookie.

 
Anarchy99 said:
If folks want to give Sayers some props for also returning kicks, so be it. But in this day and age, returning kicks can have more of a negative connotation than a positive one. Many teams now look at returners as players that are less valuable or disposable compared to other starters. Often times teams won't risk injuries to starters on either side of the ball by having someone return kicks.
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That's not the way it was in the 60s.

 
Funny how some yards are not worth as much as other yards. Darren Sproles ranks 6th all time in all purpose yards with almost 20,000. He set the record for most APY in 2011 with 2696. Brian Mitchell is another one. He ranks second all time in APY behind Jerry Rice. But in the pantheon of all time greats, do these guys even merit an honorable mention?

 
Anarchy99 said:
Funny how some yards are not worth as much as other yards. Darren Sproles ranks 6th all time in all purpose yards with almost 20,000. He set the record for most APY in 2011 with 2696. Brian Mitchell is another one. He ranks second all time in APY behind Jerry Rice. But in the pantheon of all time greats, do these guys even merit an honorable mention?
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BMitch was more than good for a very long time. He was leading the league in APY, gaining 2k yards 5 or 6 years in a row,  and was a weapon on offense as well. 

I hated him but he’s a HOF imo. 

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
BMitch was more than good for a very long time. He was leading the league in APY, gaining 2k yards 5 or 6 years in a row,  and was a weapon on offense as well. 

I hated him but he’s a HOF imo. 
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HOF voters think differently than you. I know he got nominated before but hasn't really gotten much traction. He was a great return specialist, but he was mostly a gadget player on offense. He averaged 19 yards from scrimmage over the course of his career. He may have always been a threat when he was on the field, but his production just on offense barely even registers in terms of HOF caliber numbers.

He's similar to Devin Hester. Hester didn't do much on defense so they moved him to offense. He was always a threat on offense, too, but his offensive numbers weren't spectacular either. If the HOF wants to start inducting more special teams players, that's up to them. But both Mitchell and Hester really only merit inclusion based on their kick returning accomplishments.

 
Anarchy99 said:
HOF voters think differently than you. I know he got nominated before but hasn't really gotten much traction. He was a great return specialist, but he was mostly a gadget player on offense. He averaged 19 yards from scrimmage over the course of his career. He may have always been a threat when he was on the field, but his production just on offense barely even registers in terms of HOF caliber numbers.

He's similar to Devin Hester. Hester didn't do much on defense so they moved him to offense. He was always a threat on offense, too, but his offensive numbers weren't spectacular either. If the HOF wants to start inducting more special teams players, that's up to them. But both Mitchell and Hester really only merit inclusion based on their kick returning accomplishments.
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Ok

 
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