Season ticket holder sues over PSLs (1 Viewer)

[Bri]

New York Giants and Jets season-ticket holder sues teams over PSLs

by Star-Ledger Staff

Thursday March 19, 2009, 4:15 PM

The Bergen Record is reporting that a Giants and Jets season-ticket holder is suing the teams over the ticket-pricing plans at the new stadium that both teams will share.

Harold Oshinsky, a Florida resident and season-ticket holder, has called the ticket-pricing plans "unconscionable" in a class-action suit filed in U.S. District Court this week.

Oshinsky is claiming that the personal-seat licenses required for the right to purchase season tickets at the new stadium violates the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act and federal anti-trust laws.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2009/03...onticket_h.html

Original article:

A season-ticket holder for the Jets and Giants is suing both National Football League franchises for what he calls their “unconscionable” ticket-pricing programs at the new, shared stadium in the Meadowlands.

Harold Oshinsky, a Florida resident, seeks a jury trial and unspecified damages in a class-action suit filed in U.S. District Court this week. He said the teams’ use of personal-seat licenses (PSL) violates the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act and federal anti-trust laws.

The Giants are charging all fans $1,000 to $20,000 for a PSL, which gives them the right to purchase season tickets at the replacement for 33-year-old Giants Stadium, due to open in 2010. The Jets are charging fans in the lower level a minimum of $5,000 for the right to retain those seats, with the best seats available to the highest bidder via auction.

Oshinsky — who has six seats in Section 130 for Giants games and four seats in Section 131 for Jets games — alleges that the re-sale value of the PSLs are overrated by the teams. He points to the uncertainty of future ticket prices, which now near $100 per game even for the least-desirable seats.

“The terms of the PSLs provide no assurances, guarantees or protections that Defendants will not set prices for Season Tickets at more than twice, or 10 times, the amount they currently plan to charge in 2010,” Oshinsky’s attorneys wrote.

The long-time season ticket holder also asserts that the teams conceal the fact that either franchise could opt out of their stadium lease midway through their 30-year lease.

“We are aware that a complaint has been filed, but we have not been served papers as of yet,” Giants spokesman Pat Hanlon said Thursday. “We have no comment at this time, beyond to say that we are confident we have complied with all applicable law in the formulation and execution of our sales plan for the new stadium.”

Under terms set by the teams, failure to renew season tickets would result in forfeiture of the PSLs. Fans can sell their PSLs on the open market beginning in 2011, however, and many Chicago Bears and Pittsburgh Steelers supporters have sold their PSLs for several times their original value.

Oshinsky said the uncertain cost of tickets and the lack of sufficient disclosure about how secondary-market sales would work make the programs illegal. He adds that the fine print in both PSL agreements mandates that fans agree that they will have “no expectation of profit as the licensee of this PSL.”

Among the remedies sought in the lawsuit are a prohibition on the sale of PSLs; disclosure of all expected annual season-ticket price increases; team payment of a fair PSL market value for fans not seeking to renew; treble damages; and payment of all attorney’s fees.

About 45,000 fans purchase the combined 160,000 season tickets for the two teams, Oshinsky estimated.

The Jets “colluded” with the Giants in 2005 by abandoning an effort to move to a new Queens stadium, according to the suit, agreeing to refrain from competing for luxury-suite revenues and large-scale events.

Oshinsky compares the PSL program for the two “monopolistic” teams to a hypothetical conspiracy between a local cable company and telephone company charging a “Broadband Subscription License” to purchase high-speed internet access.

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/pslsuit031909.html

 

[Bojang0301]

Hope the guy wins. PSL's are the biggest sham in sports. All professional sports need to clean up their act and a great deal of execs and whole teams need to take business ethics classes. It will catch up to them, I just hope it catches up fast and hard.

 

[Koya]

Hope the guy wins. PSL's are the biggest sham in sports. All professional sports need to clean up their act and a great deal of execs and whole teams need to take business ethics classes. It will catch up to them, I just hope it catches up fast and hard.

Business ethics? If people are dumb enough to keep buying them, business ethics will dictate a high cost. The market dictates the price.Just don't buy the damn ticket.

 

[JAA]

PSL's are a sham

 

[Kiddnets]

Pure economics and this is going to backfire on the NY teams. They didn't read the economy correctly and are having lots of trouble selling even their 1st wave of tix. The giants are confirmed to be 35,000 in to their waiting list trying to sell PSLs - Jets only have a 10-15,000 waiting list so they are in much more trouble. These pricey tix/PSLs are not going to sell out in this economy IMO.

NY teams are going to be facing a real possibility of lowering the PSL prices or selling unsold tix on a per game basis and risking a blackout in the biggest market in the US.

 

[Adebisi]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

 

[Phurfur]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

Correct, it is "supply and demand" or "what the market will bear". What a waste of people's time and our money.

 

[KellysHeroes]

good luck, I doubt the system lets him win.

And yes... its hard to blame the Teams, if people are willing to get porked; then go ahead and pork them.

I rather watch the game at my own comfort of my home.

 

[Lehigh98]

I don't know the full details of all types so I may be off but my thoughts on PSL's:

- It seems that in some cases the city ends up contributing a chunk of the cost of the stadium

- To pay for that chunk they increase taxes that effects everyone in the city including non-fans

- PSL's are a way to raise money for the new stadium from fans while lessening or eliminating the burden on the non-fans.

BTW, I own Eagles PSL seats.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

surprising as it may seem, I actually agree with Adedisi 100% on this.It's kinda like people who are offended by things they see on tv or hear on the radio....if you don't like it, well, change the station.

 

[Lehigh98]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

surprising as it may seem, I actually agree with Adedisi 100% on this.It's kinda like people who are offended by things they see on tv or hear on the radio....if you don't like it, well, change the station.

I agree as well. But it seems like one of his points, if not the main one, is that the team could opt out of the lease after 15 years and could potentially make the PSL's worthless? Hadn't considered that before but ours weren't nearly as expensive as what they're asking in NY.Its possible, although unlikely?, the guy could drop $50,000+ on his 10 PSL's that end up worthless in 15 years.Doing the math, guess that only works out to about $33 per game over that span so not shockingly bad for $100+ tickets.

 

[Phurfur]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

surprising as it may seem, I actually agree with Adedisi 100% on this.It's kinda like people who are offended by things they see on tv or hear on the radio....if you don't like it, well, change the station.

I agree as well. But it seems like one of his points, if not the main one, is that the team could opt out of the lease after 15 years and could potentially make the PSL's worthless? Hadn't considered that before but ours weren't nearly as expensive as what they're asking in NY.Its possible, although unlikely?, the guy could drop $50,000+ on his 10 PSL's that end up worthless in 15 years.Doing the math, guess that only works out to about $33 per game over that span so not shockingly bad for $100+ tickets.

I don't know how it works elsewhere but in GB you get your PSL fee back when you turn in your tickets.

 

[GregR_2]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

 

[Bri]

New stadiums are seeming to be more and more common and they're all going with PSLs.

I think whether you agree with this florida guy suing NY teams playing in NJ or not, you should jump on board; even if temporarily. Some judge needs to sit down and look these things over and maybe congress needs to enact laws about them.

I remember one guy said PSLs are for the opportunity to buy season tickets which right now meshes up just fine but what if some owner decides the seats are for some diplomat? (Sorry can't recall which team)

Point is we need a judge looking at these licenses making sure things are "kosher"

 

[Bri]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

"to prove a point" I believe you mean here.that doesn't work in many areas, especially the NY Giants which are one of the most successful NFL franchises there is at selling tickets. It got to a point where they were up to a 20 year waiting list or somesuch and stopped taking people for that. IIRC the Pack have an enormous waiting list too. In that light, taking a stand doesn't do any good, all they can really do is complain.Alot of people that go to games go out of tradition as much as anything. It's an event in their family "day to day". They can't just stop as easily as it may seem.

 

[Adebisi]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

This is not a necessity; it is a luxury, and there are literally thousands of people on waiting lists for season tickets across the league who would gladly agree to the terms that season ticket holders complain about. Whether or not someone is getting "screwed over" is completely a matter of opinion. If you feel you're getting screwed over, and you're not happy with the agreement, then maybe season tickets are not for you.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

 

[Adebisi]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

"to prove a point" I believe you mean here.that doesn't work in many areas, especially the NY Giants which are one of the most successful NFL franchises there is at selling tickets. It got to a point where they were up to a 20 year waiting list or somesuch and stopped taking people for that. IIRC the Pack have an enormous waiting list too. In that light, taking a stand doesn't do any good, all they can really do is complain.

Alot of people that go to games go out of tradition as much as anything. It's an event in their family "day to day". They can't just stop as easily as it may seem.

No, I don't mean "to prove a point." I mean to get out of an arrangement that you're not happy with if you're complaining about it.I would love to have season tickets. But by the time I was old enough and had a good enough job to afford them, they had sold out and the waiting list was thousands of names long. Oh well; that's too bad for me. But if a current season ticket holder decided he was not willing to pay for his seat license/preseason tickets/whatever, I would happily take his season tickets off his hands and agree to pay for the license and so forth. It's simple supply and demand.

If you really can't stop going to games and it's becoming a financial hardship on you, that's an entirely different problem that needs to be addressed (which also leads me to another issue of season ticket holders believing that their tickets should be passed on from generation to generation, which I also disagree with, but that may be another issue for another thread).

 

[Bri]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

 

[Adebisi]

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.

Gillette Stadium - GB the Kraft family.

 

[Bri]

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.

Gillette Stadium - GB the Kraft family.

I think you're rightdidn't they also sell restaurant space or retail space to "foot the bill" too?

 

[Adebisi]

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.

Gillette Stadium - GB the Kraft family.

I think you're rightdidn't they also sell restaurant space or retail space to "foot the bill" too?

I believe you are referring to Patriot Place (correct me if I'm wrong, please). I could be mistaken, but I don't believe this was even conceived until after Gillette was built. But certainly, that has made the Kraft family plenty of money. If you've never been there, it is extremely impressive.

 

[Giantseasonticketholder]

I am one of the "lucky". I've only had to fork over $1,000 per seat since I sit upstairs. They have asked me repeatedly if I wanted to move down into the $5,000 or $20,000 section. No thanks!

 

[Bri]

I think that's it, never been just see it on TV. For a while there they were sorta making a big deal of it on TV during the game.

 

[Phurfur]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

Do you know anything about economics? It is called supply and demand, the corner stone of our economy.

 

[Phurfur]

New stadiums are seeming to be more and more common and they're all going with PSLs.

I think whether you agree with this florida guy suing NY teams playing in NJ or not, you should jump on board; even if temporarily. Some judge needs to sit down and look these things over and maybe congress needs to enact laws about them.

I remember one guy said PSLs are for the opportunity to buy season tickets which right now meshes up just fine but what if some owner decides the seats are for some diplomat? (Sorry can't recall which team)

Point is we need a judge looking at these licenses making sure things are "kosher"

Yes please give me more government control in my life. What a rediculous statement.

 

[GregR_2]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

Do you know anything about economics? It is called supply and demand, the corner stone of our economy.

Don't be condescending. You're the one who is ignoring the monopolistic aspect of the NFL's situation which is the entire point here. Supply and demand was as much as part of the equation for Microsoft, for Standard Oil, and many others, yet what they did was not viewed as good for our economy. I'm not claiming this is even close to on par with Standard Oil in terms of economic impact on our society. But that doesn't change that many of the same principles apply.The NFL is able to get season ticket buyers into long term agreements with no control on price or product quality because they are the only game of their kind in town. Just because someone ultimately decides the risk is worth what they gain out of buying it doesn't mean it is right for the NFL to put their customers in that position. Show me a place where I've advocated that the NFL not be able to get a price commensurate with what demand will pay? My, and most objections you hear regarding PSLs, isn't about the teams getting an ultimate price the market will bear. It's about putting the buyer into a long term contract with little restrictions on what the team can do to them in it. Read the details of the lawsuit if you haven't, most of them are talking about exactly what I am and have nothing to do with the team not getting a fair price based on supply and demand.

 

[Phurfur]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

I think most of you people should stick to sports because you know nothing about economics. Cities fund stadiums because they bring revenue into the community. It was estimated that the AZ- Philly NFC Championship game brought in over $1 million dollars to Glendale AZ. Do you see how this works?

I see allot of you are on the "kill the rich" bandwagon the US Government is driving right now. The truth is we need the rich because they pay most of the taxes in this country. Without them we are all screwed.

 

[GregR_2]

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

This is not a necessity; it is a luxury, and there are literally thousands of people on waiting lists for season tickets across the league who would gladly agree to the terms that season ticket holders complain about. Whether or not someone is getting "screwed over" is completely a matter of opinion. If you feel you're getting screwed over, and you're not happy with the agreement, then maybe season tickets are not for you.

If only I'd thought to address beforehand whether it being a luxury or a necessity should dictate whether someone has to be content about getting screwed over. If you are so sick and tired of hearing people complain when their only option to buy something is to be forced into a one-sided long-term contract that could be used to screw them over, then maybe reading threads about PSLs isn't for you?

 

[Sweet Love]

Honestly, I am just surprised a guy who can afford 10 lower-level tix to NY franchises also has the time and $$ to start a suit like this. Any confirmation on who this guy is and what he does?

 

[Phurfur]

This was an unbelievably stupid thing for a President to say... Clearly. But believe me when I say I would have defended even Bush on this as I did from time to time when an issue was trite... The intent wasn't malicious. He was self-depricating. Definitely insensitive and deserves an apology, but I think we all know where he was coming from. Dumb, but understandably dumb.In fact, I think if any of us put in 90 hour weeks consistently during a time of crisis we'd be prone to such things as making inappropriate statements and thanking ourselves on telepromters... Only difference is that every mistake we make wouldn't be national news.Being human isn't a crime.My problems with Obama relate to policy. I like the man.

I am so sick and tired of hearing season ticket holders complain. If you don't like the policies and/or prices, just don't buy the tickets.

I'm sure people could say that to you about thousands of things you've complained about in your life. Don't like the price of gas? Then don't drive. Don't like Microsoft bundling software so it drives other companies out of the software market? Then don't use windows. Don't like that mechanic claiming to make repairs he never made? Go to another mechanic.They have close to, if not outright, a monopoly when it comes to professional football played at a high level, and they are utilizing that to force some business terms that wouldn't fly if they didn't have that level of monopolistic power. Walmart can't create such an agreement for you buying bread that to buy a loaf you have to agree to continue buying loaves from them every week... because you can go somewhere else to get the same product. You don't have that option with the NFL. If Walmart did have that kind of monopoly on it there is no way they should be able to get away with it either.Just because you feel it is a purchase that isn't a necessity or isn't important to you doesn't mean people should have to submit to being screwed over to make it.

Do you know anything about economics? It is called supply and demand, the corner stone of our economy.

Don't be condescending. You're the one who is ignoring the monopolistic aspect of the NFL's situation which is the entire point here. Supply and demand was as much as part of the equation for Microsoft, for Standard Oil, and many others, yet what they did was not viewed as good for our economy. I'm not claiming this is even close to on par with Standard Oil in terms of economic impact on our society. But that doesn't change that many of the same principles apply.The NFL is able to get season ticket buyers into long term agreements with no control on price or product quality because they are the only game of their kind in town. Just because someone ultimately decides the risk is worth what they gain out of buying it doesn't mean it is right for the NFL to put their customers in that position. Show me a place where I've advocated that the NFL not be able to get a price commensurate with what demand will pay? My, and most objections you hear regarding PSLs, isn't about the teams getting an ultimate price the market will bear. It's about putting the buyer into a long term contract with little restrictions on what the team can do to them in it. Read the details of the lawsuit if you haven't, most of them are talking about exactly what I am and have nothing to do with the team not getting a fair price based on supply and demand.

Yup, you don't get it.

 

[CalBear]

New stadiums are seeming to be more and more common and they're all going with PSLs.

I think whether you agree with this florida guy suing NY teams playing in NJ or not, you should jump on board; even if temporarily. Some judge needs to sit down and look these things over and maybe congress needs to enact laws about them.

I remember one guy said PSLs are for the opportunity to buy season tickets which right now meshes up just fine but what if some owner decides the seats are for some diplomat? (Sorry can't recall which team)

Point is we need a judge looking at these licenses making sure things are "kosher"

Yes please give me more government control in my life. What a rediculous statement.

If you don't like it, you could go somewhere else to live. I hear Somalia has no government control.

 

[GroveDiesel]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

You seriously have no idea what the economic climate is like in Buffalo. And it's possible that Buffalo could make more money, but Ralph Wilson has also been one of the best owners in the league at trying to keep ticket prices affordable for his fan base. I guess that makes him incompetent to someone like you.

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

I think most of you people should stick to sports because you know nothing about economics. Cities fund stadiums because they bring revenue into the community. It was estimated that the AZ- Philly NFC Championship game brought in over $1 million dollars to Glendale AZ. Do you see how this works?I see allot of you are on the "kill the rich" bandwagon the US Government is driving right now. The truth is we need the rich because they pay most of the taxes in this country. Without them we are all screwed.

I think that you're the one that should stick to sports. Every single economics study that has been does shows again and again that public financing of stadiums is a loser for taxpayers. Throw in all of the "jobs" and "retail" that the teams supposedly provide and it's still a loser for taxpayers. It's a joke that billionaire owners ask for taxpayer money.

 

[Bri]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

You seriously have no idea what the economic climate is like in Buffalo.

had family live there for a long time, still do but thanks for asking

 

[Bri]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

I think most of you people should stick to sports because you know nothing about economics. Cities fund stadiums because they bring revenue into the community. It was estimated that the AZ- Philly NFC Championship game brought in over $1 million dollars to Glendale AZ. Do you see how this works?

Quit sugarcoating it, an owner would not own a team if he made nothing but the stores in the community had millions of dollars in revenue. We wouldn't even be at this point in the discussion.If a mil was brought into the glendale area and the sales tax is 12%(high but...) then how about we say the state and local cut of those taxes is 10%. That is 100k.

So if the taxpayers paid 400 mil for the stadium...........

 

[Bojang0301]

Listen I'll buy the people talking about it is the consumer who dictates the prices but people talking about how the city benefits doesn't understand the full spectrum that goes into a sports franchise.

Many franchises (NFL or otherwise) pressure municipalities to foot the bill so they don't have to even though they are the ones who directly benefit from the establishment being there. In order to make it look all well and good the franchise says oh this will create blah blah jobs and raise blah blah money. It is a lie. It is said to pull the wool over the collective eyes of the public. The jobs that are created are 95% minimum wage seasonal employment. Multi-purpose venues are nice but if they are outdoors they are limited to what they can do. Some, like the new Yankee Stadium (which if anyone is bored and wants to burn some time just look up articles at how badly Guiliani screwed NY in both stadium deals) like to say that their venue can host corporate functions and bday parties in sweets but lets think about that logically do you want to go to an empty stadium to have a meeting or party. Maybe some do but the demand can't be that high. The city won't get a whiff of the vending, ticket sales, merchandise or licensing. They will get lease money and that is substantial but nowhere near the cost of the stadium and with the way most teams act today they want a new stadium every ten years.

...and another kicker that's a bite on the ###. All teams do creative accounting. What does this mean? Well means that when you hire say a catering service or performing act that money goes to that act no matter who owns it which means that money is listed off the books and subtracted from total revenue. Well say said owner owns the companies that do the sound, lighting, performances, catering, etc. Think profits look a little bit different then? I'm not making this stuff up they teach it in school.

FWIW, to anyone who was directing comments at me for griping. I don't own season tickets nor do I have any desire for season tickets. I'll watch it on the good ol plasma HD or I'll go to BDub's cause I don't care for the DirectTV situation either but that's a whole other story. Just because I do these things I still have every right to talk about it because I think a lot of good people who work hard and support their towns get screwed pretty hard by a corporate machine. And if you think the NFL is any different than the companies taking so much hell on Wall St. I beg you take the blindfold off.

 

[TLEF316]

my family has had Jets tickers for ~30 years (before i was born and I'm 25). 9th row, 45 yard line. Our PSL's would have been 20K a piece (4 seats). We're giving them up (actually, we're giving up 2 of them. my uncle's brother in law is buying 2 of them). My dad and uncle could easily afford them, but my dad's not one to shell out a year of college tuition (my brother is in college and another will be in 3 years) for the right to continue to buy our tickets.

I love going, and its a shame that we wont be able to anymore. The Jets have decided that they would rather sell our seats to some corporation. If the Jets continue to be what the Jets have been, they'll have an empty stadium in December and January. Thats their right, i guess. I'll just watch the games on TV.

I was really upset about this 6 months ago, but I'm over it now. No point crying about it. The only thing that bothers me is that both the Jets AND giants are charging for PSL's. They're double dipping and i think thats wrong. Wasnt the original point of PSL's is that you would own your seat and would have the right to purchase tickets for other events? obviously that cant happen when you're splitting it with a giants fan.

 

[teamramrod]

This thread needs some humor....

Ummm, you could own a Lion's season ticket, so shut up....

Really

Peace

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

If these teams who charge PSLs are using public money to finance any of their stadium, I have no problem with the public complaining about the cost of tickets/PSLs. Many teams use this "part of the community" BS to get public financing, so there should be some accountability when the community can't get tickets to see the team's home they helped buy.

I can't think of a new stadium that didn't have public funds.The profit teams make is ridiculous and the profit teams like Buffalo could make if they were managed better is ridiculous.

I think most of you people should stick to sports because you know nothing about economics. Cities fund stadiums because they bring revenue into the community. It was estimated that the AZ- Philly NFC Championship game brought in over $1 million dollars to Glendale AZ. Do you see how this works?

I see allot of you are on the "kill the rich" bandwagon the US Government is driving right now. The truth is we need the rich because they pay most of the taxes in this country. Without them we are all screwed.

I think you are somewhat misinformed. While I appreciate your loyalty to "studies," the direct impact of Championship games or even the Super Bowl is difficult to estimate, and is often overstated by the NFL and committees who want to bring the game to a host city. Cities spend millions in incentives (not to mention extra police, security, etc) to bring a game to town, and most host cities are tourist destinations anyway. The hypothetical financial benefit is only an estimate, while the cost outlay is concrete. Do YOU see how this works?This is a bit off topic, but since you mentioned it: The US government is not killing the rich; it's saving the rich from their penchant for financial cannibalism. If they need govt to step in with our money, it SHOULD have a say in how they spend that money. If an NFL needs public funds to build a stadium, the public's interest SHOULD be monitored by our representatives. Otherwise, stop asking for public welfare and buy your own stadium.

Please don't pretend that the NFL is a corner lemonade stand and if you don't want to buy it you don't have to. The NFL works to undermine any competitive stands and charges us $10 for a glass of lemonade from a stand the PUBLIC helped build. They sell lemonade for a few days a year, then lease out the stand for other events and take a cut from THOSE revenues. All on our dime. So you know what? If the public is outraged that they now have to buy "lemonade passes" for the right to buy a glass, they have a valid point. They paid for that stand. The NFL teams make the lion's share of the revenues even when they're not in the building.

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

 

[Bri]

Remember lawsuits where teams sued ticketting agencies or sites? IIRC Pats sued stubhub.com.

Does this affect those selling tickets? if so how

 

[mightyeskimo]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

 

[Koya]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

If there were no longer consumers for the high priced tickets, and the seats sat empty, many of them, week after week.... trust me, the price would come way down.While you may not have pure supply and demand, and while you have an issue complicated by public monies and/or tax breaks, to say this is not a case of supply and demand is simply inaccurate. Once again, if there were no buyers for tickets or liscences at a certain price, the price would come down. Regardless of the ancillary issues like public funding for stadiums.

 

[mightyeskimo]

It's never that simple. Even admitting it's not "pure supply and demand" doesn't come close to describing what is going on here. This is a monopoly. Many of the same principles debated here were debated decades ago when Ma Bell was broken up.

 

[Koya]

It's never that simple. Even admitting it's not "pure supply and demand" doesn't come close to describing what is going on here. This is a monopoly. Many of the same principles debated here were debated decades ago when Ma Bell was broken up.

Ma Bell? Are you equating the desire to watch a pro sporting event live with communication upon which, this nation depends (business, family, government)? Once again, its more supply and demand than you seem to wish to admit. If people stopped spending that much for something that is completely a "luxury" and more definately a non-necessity in life, then the price would come down.There would not be the demand for the overpriced tickets. Hence, the supply would be reduced in price. I think they call this something in economic speak. Demand and supply or something.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

It's never that simple. Even admitting it's not "pure supply and demand" doesn't come close to describing what is going on here. This is a monopoly. Many of the same principles debated here were debated decades ago when Ma Bell was broken up.

Ma Bell? Are you equating the desire to watch a pro sporting event live with communication upon which, this nation depends (business, family, government)? Once again, its more supply and demand than you seem to wish to admit. If people stopped spending that much for something that is completely a "luxury" and more definately a non-necessity in life, then the price would come down.There would not be the demand for the overpriced tickets. Hence, the supply would be reduced in price. I think they call this something in economic speak. Demand and supply or something.

I'm sorry, but I think you have it completely wrong. IF demand went down, prices wouldn't go down. Stadium sizes would shrink. You think the NFL cares how many seats are in stadiums? They care about luxury boxes. Don't be surprised if some renegade owner is considering plans for a stadium that's really just a bunch of luxury boxes strung together. They could make more money playing for a few thousand suites. Let me go a step further: The NFL could survive quite well by playing in giant abandoned warehouses with NO fans in the stands. You could simply watch the game on TV and buy jerseys. Now, as long as fans want to show their "loyalty" by ponying up and sitting in the stands, they'll bleed you for it. You can pay for the stadium, you can pay for the right to buy tickets and then you can buy tickets. You can pay more money for a soda than a fast food meal costs outside their Camelot. You can pay more money to park than an evening at an Arena football game costs. And if you complain, fans on message boards will give you budget lessons in capitalism.But here's the rub: The NFL doesn't need you in the stands to make money. In their minds, they're doing you a favor by allowing you to see the team. The "loyalty" thing works one way. Chad Johnson wasn't allowed to change his name on his jersey because of existing inventory with his last name as Johnson. But where's the refund for fans who bought a Terrell Owens jersey a month ago? Don't hold your breath.The minute the NFL puts its hands in public coffers claiming to be a "partner" with a community, it should answer to fan gripes. I believe in capitalism, but this is a legitimate concern. Would you borrow a neighbor's tool to build a giant fence that obstructs the view he enjoys and brags about? Don't use our money to build your business and pretend you're just "doing business." It's a slap in the face to fans who funded your home.

 

[DropKick]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

If there were no longer consumers for the high priced tickets, and the seats sat empty, many of them, week after week.... trust me, the price would come way down.While you may not have pure supply and demand, and while you have an issue complicated by public monies and/or tax breaks, to say this is not a case of supply and demand is simply inaccurate. Once again, if there were no buyers for tickets or liscences at a certain price, the price would come down. Regardless of the ancillary issues like public funding for stadiums.

Perhaps if you were a long standing season ticket holder who had loyally paid for his tickets, parking and concessions for years... in good years and bad, in good weather and bad.. And then had to shell out an additional fee just to keep those tickets... then maybe you would understand the "strong arm" tactic in place here... Otherwise feel free to simplify this to an Economics 101 discussion.

 

[Koya]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

If there were no longer consumers for the high priced tickets, and the seats sat empty, many of them, week after week.... trust me, the price would come way down.While you may not have pure supply and demand, and while you have an issue complicated by public monies and/or tax breaks, to say this is not a case of supply and demand is simply inaccurate. Once again, if there were no buyers for tickets or liscences at a certain price, the price would come down. Regardless of the ancillary issues like public funding for stadiums.

Perhaps if you were a long standing season ticket holder who had loyally paid for his tickets, parking and concessions for years... in good years and bad, in good weather and bad.. And then had to shell out an additional fee just to keep those tickets... then maybe you would understand the "strong arm" tactic in place here... Otherwise feel free to simplify this to an Economics 101 discussion.

Im not saying it doesnt suck. Im not saying its not bs. Im not saying the owners arent greedy, or doing the wrong thing. But I am saying if people didn't spend the money on high priced tickets, the tix wouldnt be as high priced. Just because people love their teams, does not mean that econ 101 suddenly does not apply. Im sympathetic to the people getting screwed, but its because other people have/will pay the price that the price is set so high.

 

[DropKick]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

If there were no longer consumers for the high priced tickets, and the seats sat empty, many of them, week after week.... trust me, the price would come way down.While you may not have pure supply and demand, and while you have an issue complicated by public monies and/or tax breaks, to say this is not a case of supply and demand is simply inaccurate. Once again, if there were no buyers for tickets or liscences at a certain price, the price would come down. Regardless of the ancillary issues like public funding for stadiums.

Perhaps if you were a long standing season ticket holder who had loyally paid for his tickets, parking and concessions for years... in good years and bad, in good weather and bad.. And then had to shell out an additional fee just to keep those tickets... then maybe you would understand the "strong arm" tactic in place here... Otherwise feel free to simplify this to an Economics 101 discussion.

Im not saying it doesnt suck. Im not saying its not bs. Im not saying the owners arent greedy, or doing the wrong thing. But I am saying if people didn't spend the money on high priced tickets, the tix wouldnt be as high priced. Just because people love their teams, does not mean that econ 101 suddenly does not apply. Im sympathetic to the people getting screwed, but its because other people have/will pay the price that the price is set so high.

You know.. I'm not so sure people will pay. I've heard estimates that baseball ticket sales are down 15-20%

 

[Koya]

I love the sport and I enjoy the game like no other. But this isn't a case of "supply and demand." This is a case of "help finance our supply and we'll stick it to you all over again thanks to your demand."

That's exactly what is going on here! It's incredible. The members in this thread touting supply and demand and claiming to have knowledge in economics clearly have none. While the others that make the valid points without claiming to be a professor are actually the ones that have it right. Very ironic.

If there were no longer consumers for the high priced tickets, and the seats sat empty, many of them, week after week.... trust me, the price would come way down.While you may not have pure supply and demand, and while you have an issue complicated by public monies and/or tax breaks, to say this is not a case of supply and demand is simply inaccurate. Once again, if there were no buyers for tickets or liscences at a certain price, the price would come down. Regardless of the ancillary issues like public funding for stadiums.

Perhaps if you were a long standing season ticket holder who had loyally paid for his tickets, parking and concessions for years... in good years and bad, in good weather and bad.. And then had to shell out an additional fee just to keep those tickets... then maybe you would understand the "strong arm" tactic in place here... Otherwise feel free to simplify this to an Economics 101 discussion.

Im not saying it doesnt suck. Im not saying its not bs. Im not saying the owners arent greedy, or doing the wrong thing. But I am saying if people didn't spend the money on high priced tickets, the tix wouldnt be as high priced. Just because people love their teams, does not mean that econ 101 suddenly does not apply. Im sympathetic to the people getting screwed, but its because other people have/will pay the price that the price is set so high.

You know.. I'm not so sure people will pay. I've heard estimates that baseball ticket sales are down 15-20%

And I think that is a good thing. I hear the same with Yankee tickets. The lower priced seats are taken, but the really expensive (and some really good seats) are available. Then again, Yanks tickets just got stupid expensive, even by NY standards. And it that trend (of available seats) continues, prices will have to adjust. That's all Im saying.

 

[Adebisi]

I'm sorry, but I think you have it completely wrong. IF demand went down, prices wouldn't go down. Stadium sizes would shrink. You think the NFL cares how many seats are in stadiums? They care about luxury boxes. Don't be surprised if some renegade owner is considering plans for a stadium that's really just a bunch of luxury boxes strung together. They could make more money playing for a few thousand suites.

Let me go a step further: The NFL could survive quite well by playing in giant abandoned warehouses with NO fans in the stands. You could simply watch the game on TV and buy jerseys. Now, as long as fans want to show their "loyalty" by ponying up and sitting in the stands, they'll bleed you for it. You can pay for the stadium, you can pay for the right to buy tickets and then you can buy tickets. You can pay more money for a soda than a fast food meal costs outside their Camelot. You can pay more money to park than an evening at an Arena football game costs. And if you complain, fans on message boards will give you budget lessons in capitalism.

But here's the rub: The NFL doesn't need you in the stands to make money. In their minds, they're doing you a favor by allowing you to see the team. The "loyalty" thing works one way. Chad Johnson wasn't allowed to change his name on his jersey because of existing inventory with his last name as Johnson. But where's the refund for fans who bought a Terrell Owens jersey a month ago? Don't hold your breath.

The minute the NFL puts its hands in public coffers claiming to be a "partner" with a community, it should answer to fan gripes. I believe in capitalism, but this is a legitimate concern. Would you borrow a neighbor's tool to build a giant fence that obstructs the view he enjoys and brags about? Don't use our money to build your business and pretend you're just "doing business." It's a slap in the face to fans who funded your home.

Very interesting how you point out the high prices for concessions and parking - two things that are directly tied to the number of fans attending the games - yet you fail to bridge the gap and see that the more fans that attend the games, the more money they can make on concessions and parking. You don't think they care how many fans attend the games? Really? Do the math. I just did a quick search and found the average ticket price and the average attendance figures. The average ticket price was $72.20 and the average attendance figure was 67,738. That grosses out to $4.8 million dollars, and that does not take into consideration any money made from concessions, parking, or on-site merchandise sales (all of which would obviously increase with higher attendance figures). I have a very difficult time believing that teams could make $4.8 million per home game on luxury boxes alone - and you would also have to increase that figure to make up for the money lost in parking, concesstions, on-site merchandise sales, etc.

And by the way, no "fan" who was paying attention would have bought a Terrell Owens jersey a month ago. Are you serious? Speculation of his release has been going on for quite some time now. No one makes any promises to a fan who buys a jersey that the particular player will be with a team long-term (this comes from someone who bought a Lawyer Milloy jersey about two weeks before he was cut by the Patriots, by the way). As for the Chad Johnson jerseys, so what? If you knew he changed his name, why would you buy his "Johnson" jersey anyway?

Going to such ridiculous extremes ("Don't be surprised if some renegade owner is considering plans for a stadium that's really just a bunch of luxury boxes strung together.") only serves to weaken your argument, not strengthen it, by the way.