Seneca Wallace traded to the Browns (1 Viewer)

[identikit]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

 

[awesomeness]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

What if STL takes Bradford at 1 and WAS takes Clausen at 4?

 

[Unwrittenlaw]

Maybe the Seahawks know something about Teel in what they have that we don't know.

Anyone know much about him?

 

[Mr. Bojangles]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

I suppose. They sure backed themselves into a corner, though. I'm a Hasselbeck fan but I'd be shocked if he starts even half the games next year. Seneca was a decent backup and this team has lots of holes to fill.Just seems like a bizarre move to me, picks or no. I haven't followed the Hawks as close as I once did so maybe I am way off.

It took Seneca a long time to learn Holmgren's offense and he looked lost last year under Knapp. This, quite frankly, is a good move for both parties. Holmgren gets a guy who understands what he wants to do offensively, and the Hawks don't have to worry about Seneca learning his third new offense in three years.

 

[RC94]

Maybe the Seahawks know something about Teel in what they have that we don't know.Anyone know much about him?

He has a good arm and leadership qualities but he needs to make better/quicker decisions and be more accurate. He has the potential IMO because he has a good NFL-quality arm, but he does have some work to do to put it all together. Another year learning from Hasselbeck would be good for him.

 

[TS Garp]

Interesting. I wouldn't rule out the idea of Wallace beating out Quinn and having a Garrard-like season this year.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

I suppose. They sure backed themselves into a corner, though. I'm a Hasselbeck fan but I'd be shocked if he starts even half the games next year. Seneca was a decent backup and this team has lots of holes to fill.Just seems like a bizarre move to me, picks or no. I haven't followed the Hawks as close as I once did so maybe I am way off.

It took Seneca a long time to learn Holmgren's offense and he looked lost last year under Knapp. This, quite frankly, is a good move for both parties. Holmgren gets a guy who understands what he wants to do offensively, and the Hawks don't have to worry about Seneca learning his third new offense in three years.

Holgrem isn't the coach or OC.

 

[Mr. Bojangles]

Holgrem isn't the coach or OC.

Really?

 

[Steed]

Maybe the Seahawks know something about Teel in what they have that we don't know.Anyone know much about him?

He has a good arm and leadership qualities but he needs to make better/quicker decisions and be more accurate. He has the potential IMO because he has a good NFL-quality arm, but he does have some work to do to put it all together. Another year learning from Hasselbeck would be good for him.

He was horribly inconsistent when the focus of the offense shifted to him after Ray Rice left.

 

[PhD]

Holgrem isn't the coach or OC.

"...who's being naive now Kay?"

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Seneca Wallace is a pedestrian backup QB, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Avery]

Seneca Wallace is a pedestrian backup QB, nothing more, nothing less.

Doesn't that immediately make him the best QB on the Browns?

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Seneca Wallace is a pedestrian backup QB, nothing more, nothing less.

Doesn't that immediately make him the best QB on the Browns?

yes.

 

[Bobcat10]

Didn't see it mentioned...the price was a late-round pick in 2011.

 

[bulger2holt]

They need to trade both of their #1's to the Rams and take Bradford. The Rams could use those 2 #1's.

 

[Abraham]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

What if STL takes Bradford at 1 and WAS takes Clausen at 4?

Then the Seahawks can still get one of the top 2 quarterbacks in the draft.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Interesting. I wouldn't rule out the idea of Wallace beating out Quinn and having a Garrard-like season this year.

I've always liked Wallace. He has 556 career attempts, which is roughly analagous to a full season of attempts in 16 starts. In that 556 attempts, he had 3547 yards and 25 TDs against just 14 INTs, and has 214 rushing yards and one score. That's pretty darn good for a season's worth of production.

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

Seneca Wallace is a pedestrian backup QB, nothing more, nothing less.

Doesn't that immediately make him the best QB on the Browns?

Nice...

 

[Steelfan7]

Interesting. I wouldn't rule out the idea of Wallace beating out Quinn and having a Garrard-like season this year.

I've always liked Wallace. He has 556 career attempts, which is roughly analagous to a full season of attempts in 16 starts. In that 556 attempts, he had 3547 yards and 25 TDs against just 14 INTs, and has 214 rushing yards and one score. That's pretty darn good for a season's worth of production.

It would be absolutely amazing if Wallace put up anything close to those numbers while throwing to what Clev has for wr options and also having to play against Pitt, Balt and Cincy defenses 6 games.

 

[Couch Potato]

Didn't see it mentioned...the price was a late-round pick in 2011.

we'll all be dead in 2012 so that's a pretty good deal.

 

[Couch Potato]

Interesting. I wouldn't rule out the idea of Wallace beating out Quinn and having a Garrard-like season this year.

I've always liked Wallace. He has 556 career attempts, which is roughly analagous to a full season of attempts in 16 starts. In that 556 attempts, he had 3547 yards and 25 TDs against just 14 INTs, and has 214 rushing yards and one score. That's pretty darn good for a season's worth of production.

I demand to know his AYPA rank!! j/k my friend.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Interesting. I wouldn't rule out the idea of Wallace beating out Quinn and having a Garrard-like season this year.

I've always liked Wallace. He has 556 career attempts, which is roughly analagous to a full season of attempts in 16 starts. In that 556 attempts, he had 3547 yards and 25 TDs against just 14 INTs, and has 214 rushing yards and one score. That's pretty darn good for a season's worth of production.

This is what I don't understand. A late 2011 pick for someone with at least decent starter potential on a team that has a good chance to lose their starter to injury? From what I can tell he's not making a ton of money either (FA after 2010). Why give that up whether you are drafting a QB high or not?No doubt the Browns got a good deal (and Anderson is gone), I just don't get the reasoning for the Hawks.

Looking at stats is one thing, watching him play is another. Prior to last year I thought he was a great backup and did well when he was put in the game. Last year he was beyond pathetic. Not just his onfield performance but his attitude and leadership were all at dog crap levels. By his thrid game I was ready to see what Teel had because Wallace was just going through the motions, poorly.

 

[Moonlight_Graham]

Next they sign Matt Flynn which makes this signing moot.

 

[bigern1000]

Maybe the Seahawks know something about Teel in what they have that we don't know.Anyone know much about him?

He has a good arm and leadership qualities but he needs to make better/quicker decisions and be more accurate. He has the potential IMO because he has a good NFL-quality arm, but he does have some work to do to put it all together. Another year learning from Hasselbeck would be good for him.

He was horribly inconsistent when the focus of the offense shifted to him after Ray Rice left.

He was early on, but if you look at how he performed in the 2nd half of his senior season when he basically took RU on his shoulders and let them to a bowl, then threw 18 TD passes (or something like that) in one game, he definitely showed something that frankly not many people thought he had in him...

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Filed to ESPN: Seattle traded QB/WR Seneca Wallace to the Cleveland Browns. No compensation known yet. Wallce reunited with Holmgren.

Wow. I find this shocking. Seattle must have alternate QB plans that we know nothing about or they just made a weakness even weaker.

They have 2 top 15 picks in the first round. Chances are they will go QB with one of them.

What if STL takes Bradford at 1 and WAS takes Clausen at 4?

Then the Seahawks can still get one of the top 2 quarterbacks in the draft.

if you say McCoy or Crompton.

 

[Dave Larkin]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

 

[SuperJohn96]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for WITH a box of footballs)?

:fixed:

 

[Couch Potato]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

 

[FavreCo]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

Won't be out of work for long if he is cut.

 

[Couch Potato]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

Won't be out of work for long if he is cut.

That I'll agree with.The thing is, he's due a roster bonus of $2 mil before month end, and a $7.5 mil salary for 2010. No one will trade for that when they know they can just wait for his release, and the Brownies have no intention of paying that bonus. So, he'll be cut and sign where he can find the best fit on his own.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Really?

Are the Brown's going to run Holgrem's WCO, becaue Mangini and Daboll have no experience with it?

 

[Couch Potato]

Really?

Are the Brown's going to run Holgrem's WCO, becaue Mangini and Daboll have no experience with it?

It seems so.(also mentioned in the article is the likely release of Anderson in the next couple weeks, as I mentioned in a post above)

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...he_tools_a.html

Seneca Wallace has the tools and the knowledge to be Browns' starting QB this fall: Grossi analysis

By Tony Grossi

March 08, 2010, 10:30PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Introducing your starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns ... Seneca Wallace?

Don't count it out.

"He's accurate, he's decisive, he's got a strong arm and drives defenses crazy because he's very mobile," a league source said of Wallace.

The perennial Seattle Seahawks backup quarterback came to the Browns in a trade Monday night for an undisclosed 2011 draft pick believed to be in the middle rounds. But nobody in the NFL probably values Wallace more than Browns President Mike Holmgren.

Most Browns fans have never seen Wallace play because he has sat behind Matt Hasselbeck in far-flung Seattle for seven years. Hasselbeck's frequent injuries put Wallace on the field for spot duty. Holmgren would take advantage of Wallace's athletic ability and play him at receiver at times.

This move tells you that the Browns will run Holmgren's offense immediately. Holmgren's top aide, Gil Haskell, has been meeting regularly with offensive coordinator Brian Daboll to teach him the basics.

Holmgren had to acquire a quarterback with intimate knowledge of the system. A trade for Philadelphia's Donovan McNabb is highly improbable because the Eagles would want the Browns' No. 1 pick. Wallace, 29, will serve as a transition quarterback until Holmgren acquires a young quarterback of the future.

With Seattle, Holmgren drafted a quarterback five times in 10 years -- but none higher than the third round.

"I think Mike's still thinking about other moves," the source said. "Whether it happens or not, I don't know. He could draft a young guy in the second or third round.

"Seneca at least gives him some flexibility with someone who knows the system. He's got someone who can help the other skill guys with the system. There's nobody on the staff who knows that system. So when guys get together on their own, he can work with them.

"Seneca is one of the best locker room guys in the league, an unbelievable leader. Very athletic and has a much stronger arm and is more accurate than people think."

The move greases the departure of Derek Anderson. He probably will be released in the next week or two, if not traded. Brady Quinn could be shipped out, too. If he stays, it's doubtful he will be able to learn Holmgren's system in one off-season and beat out Wallace for the starting job. Same thing if a quarterback is drafted.

 

[Bobcat10]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

Won't be out of work for long if he is cut.

That I'll agree with.The thing is, he's due a roster bonus of $2 mil before month end, and a $7.5 mil salary for 2010. No one will trade for that when they know they can just wait for his release, and the Brownies have no intention of paying that bonus. So, he'll be cut and sign where he can find the best fit on his own.

Yeah. This isn't exactly breaking news. Been a foregone conclusion for a long time.

 

[Abraham]

Then the Seahawks can still get one of the top 2 quarterbacks in the draft.

if you say McCoy or Crompton.

Not really. My point was embellished, so I'll expand on it: I have yet to see any/hear/read any evidence that any one of the top 5 guys is absolutely better then the other 4. They all have substantial warts. But let's assume that Clausen and Bradford are gone by #7. So you're left with Tebow and McCoy, followed by a group including Pike and Crompton. While Tebow isn't going anywhere near #7, let me make the case for him: Let's say that, on average (I'm guessing although I'm sure this is easy to find) the Seahawks face 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 10 times per game. Let's say that their 2009 conversion rate, owing to their mediocre run game, was 3 out of 10. So 30% of the time, the Seahawks convert third and short and punt the other 7 times. With Tebow added, the playbook expands substantially on 3rd and 1 or 2 due to his rushing ability. Let's say that Tebow allows them to pickup 2 more "3rd and short" per game in some fashion. Mathematically, the team has drafted a player that extends drives and has perhaps his MOST value on the key down and distance in football.Is Tebow going to be a good passer? Time will tell. Will he have anyone to throw to? Who knows. But for all the bellyaching about him sliding to the second, third, etc. round, I still think he's going in the top-30 for the reason I posted above. He literally will be one of the best non-RB weapons in the league on the most critical down/distance in the game. This kind of value - and there are other examples that fit other players - is the kind of things GMs examine and plug in to their numbers more then the average fan ever would. Somewhere, some personel guy has determined that 30% more success on third and short would have led to X more time of possession and X more points over the course of the season. And for reasons like that, I think Tebow is in the conversation at the top of the QB board.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Then the Seahawks can still get one of the top 2 quarterbacks in the draft.

if you say McCoy or Crompton.

Not really. My point was embellished, so I'll expand on it: I have yet to see any/hear/read any evidence that any one of the top 5 guys is absolutely better then the other 4. They all have substantial warts. But let's assume that Clausen and Bradford are gone by #7. So you're left with Tebow and McCoy, followed by a group including Pike and Crompton. While Tebow isn't going anywhere near #7, let me make the case for him: Let's say that, on average (I'm guessing although I'm sure this is easy to find) the Seahawks face 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 10 times per game. Let's say that their 2009 conversion rate, owing to their mediocre run game, was 3 out of 10. So 30% of the time, the Seahawks convert third and short and punt the other 7 times. With Tebow added, the playbook expands substantially on 3rd and 1 or 2 due to his rushing ability. Let's say that Tebow allows them to pickup 2 more "3rd and short" per game in some fashion. Mathematically, the team has drafted a player that extends drives and has perhaps his MOST value on the key down and distance in football.Is Tebow going to be a good passer? Time will tell. Will he have anyone to throw to? Who knows. But for all the bellyaching about him sliding to the second, third, etc. round, I still think he's going in the top-30 for the reason I posted above. He literally will be one of the best non-RB weapons in the league on the most critical down/distance in the game. This kind of value - and there are other examples that fit other players - is the kind of things GMs examine and plug in to their numbers more then the average fan ever would. Somewhere, some personel guy has determined that 30% more success on third and short would have led to X more time of possession and X more points over the course of the season. And for reasons like that, I think Tebow is in the conversation at the top of the QB board.

I'm not sure that Tebow carrying the ball on 3rd and 1 or 2 is a better option than handing the ball off to a RB or him throwing on the same down and distance is a better option than letting you "real" QB throw. Your assumption isn't so automatic in my mind.

 

[saintfool]

Maybe the Seahawks know something about Teel in what they have that we don't know.Anyone know much about him?

they could be angling for shaun hill once he gets cut by san francisco.

 

[Abraham]

I'm not sure that Tebow carrying the ball on 3rd and 1 or 2 is a better option than handing the ball off to a RB or him throwing on the same down and distance is a better option than letting you "real" QB throw. Your assumption isn't so automatic in my mind.

It may not be a "better" option nearly as much as its "another" option. Teams openly talk about gameplanning for a mobile QB being different then a standard drop-back QB. Tebow isn't going to carry for an 80 yard score like Vince or Vick, but on short distance he adds one more wrinkle - a VALUABLE wrinkle - to the offense.

 

[Mr. Bojangles]

Really?

Are the Brown's going to run Holgrem's WCO, becaue Mangini and Daboll have no experience with it?

Pretty much. I mean Holmgren is the Big Show, right?

Mike Holmgren, the Browns president, received a quarterback familiar with his offensive system, having coached Wallace for six seasons in Seattle.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/seah...724_hawk09.html

 

[nxmehta]

Really?

Are the Brown's going to run Holgrem's WCO, becaue Mangini and Daboll have no experience with it?

Pretty much. I mean Holmgren is the Big Show, right?

Mike Holmgren, the Browns president, received a quarterback familiar with his offensive system, having coached Wallace for six seasons in Seattle.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/seah...724_hawk09.html

I think it's going to become clear that Mangini will have complete ownership of the defense while Holmgren will at the very least be involved with the offense, if not heavily involved. The Browns' personnel moves certainly indicate that's the case (Fujita for instance is a prototypical Mangini player, while Wallace is a Holmgren guy).Sure he's not coaching the offense, but I have no doubt that he'll be instilling it with his philosophy. That's what this team needs anyways.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

This is clearly my opinion but S. Wallace is not a very good QB. He is the definition of a very good back up QB, but I would not want him starting for my team unless it was in injury replacement type situation.

 

[Bobcat10]

This is clearly my opinion but S. Wallace is not a very good QB. He is the definition of a very good back up QB, but I would not want him starting for my team unless it was in injury replacement type situation.

The Browns could use a very good backup QB, who may have to start for a short period of time while Holmgren finds his #1.

 

[deadstick]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

Won't be out of work for long if he is cut.

Hell, he could be a playoff QB next year - he's an upgrade over anything the Vikes have if Favre leaves. A little better arsenal to work around there as well, and he wouldn't be expensive. They CAN'T go with Sage/Tarvaris next year - it's a total waste of a season after all the hard work in FA and drafting of good players on that team that just can't go the extra step without SOMETHING at QB. They are in the window of opportunity now - but it won't be there forever, way too many guys on that team that are going to be looking for pay increases in the near future - they won't be able to keep them all together.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I want Derrick Anderson at QB for the Vikes next year, I'd much rather see Favre or McNabb. But, if it's T-JAX or Anderson, well let's at least have a training camp battle....

 

[Couch Potato]

Does this pave the way for Derek Anderson to be traded (for a box of footballs)?

He'll be cut within a week or two I promise.

Won't be out of work for long if he is cut.

Hell, he could be a playoff QB next year - he's an upgrade over anything the Vikes have if Favre leaves. A little better arsenal to work around there as well, and he wouldn't be expensive. They CAN'T go with Sage/Tarvaris next year - it's a total waste of a season after all the hard work in FA and drafting of good players on that team that just can't go the extra step without SOMETHING at QB. They are in the window of opportunity now - but it won't be there forever, way too many guys on that team that are going to be looking for pay increases in the near future - they won't be able to keep them all together.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I want Derrick Anderson at QB for the Vikes next year, I'd much rather see Favre or McNabb. But, if it's T-JAX or Anderson, well let's at least have a training camp battle....

Except for a partial-season stretch in 2007, Anderson has been pretty awful.By the way, he's now been released:Rotoworld --

Derek Anderson-QB- Browns Mar. 9 - 2:40 pm et Browns terminated the contract of QB Derek Anderson.The Browns had thoughts of trying to extract a draft pick for Anderson, but teams knew there was no way he was going to receive his $2 million roster bonus on March 19. Though Anderson has prototypical size and arm strength, he's managed a brutal 48.0 percent on completions the past two years. His 2007 season will buy him another opportunity, but he'll have to at least compete for a starting job. The Cardinals are one team rumored to have interest, and the Bills make sense as well.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Seneca Wallace is a pedestrian backup QB, nothing more, nothing less.

That's true but IMO Quinn gets that same label. I'm not sure who would be more effective in moving the ball for the Browns between those two guys.

 

[Sammy Traveller]

They need to trade both of their #1's to the Rams and take Bradford. The Rams could use those 2 #1's.

i'm just wondering if all the buzz about the Rams planning to take Bradford at #1 is a shark PR move by the Rams front office to get some team to bite and trade up. The Seahawks seem to be one of the teams and they have the picks to trade up.

 

[nicole320]

Currently the Insanity Workout DVD is one of the most po[censored] r workouts you can get online. The inventive thoughts behind the insanity review Workout come from a guy called Shaun T. Inside the neighborhood of internet fitness buffs

 

[Birdie048]

Well, it looks like the Browns are looking outside for their starting QB.... maybe Vick, Bulger, or draft a rookie...

NFL Network's Mike Lombardi expects Brady Quinn to be no better than the Browns' No. 3 quarterback in 2010.

The alternative would be Cleveland moving Quinn for a late-round pick. According to Lombardi, Quinn is too inaccurate for the Browns' new West Coast offense. Lombardi also projects Seneca Wallace to be the Browns' No. 2 QB, and club president Mike Holmgren to find a starter via trade or the draft.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

edit: Well yeah. ^

Mike Holmgren, the Browns president, received a quarterback familiar with his offensive system, having coached Wallace for six seasons in Seattle.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/seah...724_hawk09.html

This is the only reason for the deal.There is basically no chance of Wallace starting in Week 1.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Then the Seahawks can still get one of the top 2 quarterbacks in the draft.

if you say McCoy or Crompton.

Not really. My point was embellished, so I'll expand on it: I have yet to see any/hear/read any evidence that any one of the top 5 guys is absolutely better then the other 4. They all have substantial warts. But let's assume that Clausen and Bradford are gone by #7. So you're left with Tebow and McCoy, followed by a group including Pike and Crompton. While Tebow isn't going anywhere near #7, let me make the case for him: Let's say that, on average (I'm guessing although I'm sure this is easy to find) the Seahawks face 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 10 times per game. Let's say that their 2009 conversion rate, owing to their mediocre run game, was 3 out of 10. So 30% of the time, the Seahawks convert third and short and punt the other 7 times. With Tebow added, the playbook expands substantially on 3rd and 1 or 2 due to his rushing ability. Let's say that Tebow allows them to pickup 2 more "3rd and short" per game in some fashion. Mathematically, the team has drafted a player that extends drives and has perhaps his MOST value on the key down and distance in football.Is Tebow going to be a good passer? Time will tell. Will he have anyone to throw to? Who knows. But for all the bellyaching about him sliding to the second, third, etc. round, I still think he's going in the top-30 for the reason I posted above. He literally will be one of the best non-RB weapons in the league on the most critical down/distance in the game. This kind of value - and there are other examples that fit other players - is the kind of things GMs examine and plug in to their numbers more then the average fan ever would. Somewhere, some personel guy has determined that 30% more success on third and short would have led to X more time of possession and X more points over the course of the season. And for reasons like that, I think Tebow is in the conversation at the top of the QB board.

Wow. It probably would have just been less embarrassing to admit I was correct. I think Tebow will struggle mightily in the NFL. Of course, I'm not a big fan of Bradford or Clausen. But they are the clear top 2 QBs in the draft right now, unless you're just being snarky.