Shanahan/McNabb is NOT Shanahan/Elway (1 Viewer)

[lombardi]

Broncos

1. Terrell Davis

2. Awesome Defensive Line

3. Broncos lost the big game in SPITE of Elway's play

Skins

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

2. Jason Cambell probably just extended his career a few years

3. The birds D often won the big games they did win in SPITE of McNabb

That last one is probably a little too harsh, McNabb had some very good big games, but not lately. And to his credit, it's hard to succeed with #1 receivers that barely make the chart on other teams. But let's be honest. Elways was a passer, when his body started to break down he could still see the whole field, check down, and hit his receivers in stride. Shanahan protected him with a ridiculously good running game and a line and he won a Super Bowl. Actually, in that first one he road to victory on TD's back.

McNabb has never been anything beyond a mediocre passer. His ability to buy time and run from pressure made him special. Now that that ability is COMPLETELY gone (and anyone who has watched his last couple seasons know that's true) he is an average QB. Lots of experience, a strong arm, but below average accuracy and absolutely no ability to hit a guy in stride. When guys who depend on their legs to set them apart lose the legs, what is left?

Eagles unloaded just in time, Jackson made him look better than he was last year. If Kolb is anywhere close to what he has shown in flashes the Eagles will be just fine. Every rookie throws picks, and he will to. But he is accurate, sees the field, and throws a really nice ball. A model of a perfect West Coast QB, we'll see if he can handle the speed and the pressure.

I think the Skins were better off with a developing Cambell than McNabb in the twilight of his career. I'm sure he'll throw up 350 and 3 against he Birds this year and stick it to them, but in the long run Kolb will have better season numbers next year than McNabb. Barring injury, that's a lock. McNabb would have been much better off on a contending team with a good line and running game.

 

[Mahikoa]

Who said they were comparable?

 

[lombardi]

Who said they were comparable?

Just about every other news story I read about this trade and every long McNabb thread in the shark pool. You seriously haven't heard this comparison a ton of times today?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

 

[Mahikoa]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

Interesting. Do you think he was just talking about McNabb, or as the OP suggests, that the Redskins should win two Super Bowls as well?

 

[Mahikoa]

Who said they were comparable?

Just about every other news story I read about this trade and every long McNabb thread in the shark pool. You seriously haven't heard this comparison a ton of times today?

Nope. Was just curious.

 

[Amused to Death]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

I wonder if he takes into account this is a different league now. Far more tailored to the passing game then it was was Elway played.

 

[moleculo]

How does McNabb compare to Jake Plummer? I'd say favorably.

 

[CalBear]

3. Broncos lost the big game in SPITE of Elway's play

You sure about that?Here are Elway's stats in playoff games the Broncos lost with him at QB, prior to Shanahan showing up:115/221 (52.0%), 200 yards per game, 7 TD, 11 INT (7 games).Not that I think Shanahan is some QB guru or anything, but Elway's big game losses were largely a result of his own poor play.

 

[peter griffin]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

I would also take into account that Cowherd is, for the most part, a blithering idiot.

 

[SproutDaddy]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

 

[Chase Stuart]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/fXRA7But six other guys have done.

 

[buster c]

I'm sure he'll throw up 350 and 3 against he Birds this year and stick it to them, but in the long run Kolb will have better season numbers next year than McNabb. Barring injury, that's a lock. McNabb would have been much better off on a contending team with a good line and running game.

it's a lock

 

[SproutDaddy]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/fXRA7But six other guys have done.

But I'm pretty positive they didn't do what I was referring to..........which was rushing yards, not yards from scrimmage. But thanx for trying. Feel free to run that through your reference thing.

 

[Chase Stuart]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/fXRA7But six other guys have done.

But I'm pretty positive they didn't do what I was referring to..........which was rushing yards, not yards from scrimmage. But thanx for trying. Feel free to run that through your reference thing.

If you were referring to rushing yards, Clinton Portis didn't do that, either.

 

[scratcher]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/fXRA7But six other guys have done.

But I'm pretty positive they didn't do what I was referring to..........which was rushing yards, not yards from scrimmage. But thanx for trying. Feel free to run that through your reference thing.

If you were referring to rushing yards, Clinton Portis didn't do that, either.

1508, 1591, 1315

 

[Slider]

Shanahan won because of Alex Gibbs' zone blocking scheme that allowed his team to borderline illegally run all over the NFL while cut blocking and so on. Teams have obviously caught on to this and Alex is at his next job trying the same old thing that isn't as effective.

The WCO improves almost any QB's numbers. Look back to Gannon, Grbac, Beureline, Plummer and most any other. It's why Favre will only play in one and why Rice would only go to one.

McNabb has hit his ceiling. He's been in one. Going to Shanahan will do not much to improve anything. Same old 59% at best and the big choke at the end.

 

[CaptainHook]

Elway is a shockingly good comparison to McNabb

 

[SSOG]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

You're right, Portis probably has a better chance at getting into the hall of fame. Portis is also the only back in history to amass 1500 yards a year his first 3 years in the league. That's something TD didn't do.

This is a joke on so many levels.Clinton Portis has 1 fewer pro bowl than Terrell Davis, 3 fewer first team AP All Pros, 2 fewer offensive PoY awards, 1 fewer league MVP, 2 fewer SB rings, and 1 fewer SBMVP. Portis might have topped 1500 YFS in his first three seasons, but that's a totally meaningless stat- if Davis had 16 more yards as a rookie, he would have hit the exact same plateau. Meanwhile, while Portis had 5327 YFS through three seasons, Davis had 5369 (both RBs scored an identical 38 TDs), and then Davis went out and posted the most dominant rushing season in NFL history in his fourth season (as well as rounding out the most dominant postseason resume in NFL history, while he was at it). The only way Clinton Portis will get into the hall is if he buys a ticket for Terrell Davis's induction ceremony.

 

[TitusIII]

Kevin Kolb hasn't shown me anything special, hell Vick may win that job. I believe there is a better than 50/50 shot that Reid and company regret this move 3 years from now. They are rolling the dice, the Skins are just sitting on a nice hand, so to speak. Kolb is no McNabb, he may be on the same level five years from now...but I haven't seen anything that indicates there is a good chance he is going to reach that level...again, a crap-shoot...one I wouldn't have taken...

 

[CaptainHook]

well he couldnt have possibly played better in his limited time...that indicates nothing to you... ?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Kevin Kolb hasn't shown me anything special, hell Vick may win that job. I believe there is a better than 50/50 shot that Reid and company regret this move 3 years from now. They are rolling the dice, the Skins are just sitting on a nice hand, so to speak. Kolb is no McNabb, he may be on the same level five years from now...but I haven't seen anything that indicates there is a good chance he is going to reach that level...again, a crap-shoot...one I wouldn't have taken...

if we're shooting craps I'll put my money down on an eagles shooter and go play roulette while snyder is at the table.or maybe slots....

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I think Washington looks a lot better than they did before Shanahan got hired. McNabb would benefit from a great running game, but they're already trying to piece that together. This year they're throwing a lot of guys at that spot, hoping someone stands out or the position is respectable. Next year they'll have something better in place.

McNabb had the Eagles gunning for a SB berth about half of his tenure in Philly. If he gives the Redskins even a couple of similar chances he was worth the investment. I'm not a believer in Kolb yet, so I think this is a great move for Washington and a poor one for Philly.

And if they get a true WR1, watch out. McNabb only had that for one year and it turned out to be a pretty good season. If I was a Skins fan I'd be feeling pretty good.

 

[otello]

Who said they were comparable?

Just about every other news story I read about this trade and every long McNabb thread in the shark pool. You seriously haven't heard this comparison a ton of times today?

No.

 

[SSOG]

well he couldnt have possibly played better in his limited time...that indicates nothing to you... ?

What? Dude has a 4:7 career TD:INT ratio and a sub-70 career QB rating. Even if you just meant last season... in his first game, he tossed 3 INTs (and then got a boatload of yards because the Eagles were playing catchup because they were down big because Kolb tossed 3 INTs), and in his second game, he played possibly the worst defense in the league. A huge chunk of his yardage came from tossing short passes that DeSean took 50+ yards for a score. I'm not saying that Kolb played like dog excrement or anything, but saying that "he couldn't have possibly played better in his limited time" is way out of line with reality. He could have possibly played much better.

 

[CaptainHook]

well he couldnt have possibly played better in his limited time...that indicates nothing to you... ?

What? Dude has a 4:7 career TD:INT ratio and a sub-70 career QB rating. Even if you just meant last season... in his first game, he tossed 3 INTs (and then got a boatload of yards because the Eagles were playing catchup because they were down big because Kolb tossed 3 INTs), and in his second game, he played possibly the worst defense in the league. A huge chunk of his yardage came from tossing short passes that DeSean took 50+ yards for a score. I'm not saying that Kolb played like dog excrement or anything, but saying that "he couldn't have possibly played better in his limited time" is way out of line with reality. He could have possibly played much better.

2 of his INTs against the saints came with under a minute left in the game so...Not really sure at all what you're talking about.The so called "short pass" that desean took 50+ years was a GORGEOUS pass 30 yards downfield in PERFECT STRIDE... Box scores (which you didn't inspect very closely) don't always tell you a lot...I usually like your posting a lot but you're being way unfair here.

 

[SSOG]

well he couldnt have possibly played better in his limited time...that indicates nothing to you... ?

What? Dude has a 4:7 career TD:INT ratio and a sub-70 career QB rating. Even if you just meant last season... in his first game, he tossed 3 INTs (and then got a boatload of yards because the Eagles were playing catchup because they were down big because Kolb tossed 3 INTs), and in his second game, he played possibly the worst defense in the league. A huge chunk of his yardage came from tossing short passes that DeSean took 50+ yards for a score. I'm not saying that Kolb played like dog excrement or anything, but saying that "he couldn't have possibly played better in his limited time" is way out of line with reality. He could have possibly played much better.

2 of his INTs against the saints came with under a minute left in the game so...Not really sure at all what you're talking about.The so called "short pass" that desean took 50+ years was a GORGEOUS pass 30 yards downfield in PERFECT STRIDE... Box scores (which you didn't inspect very closely) don't always tell you a lot...I usually like your posting a lot but you're being way unfair here.

The long pass I was talking about came against the Chiefs defense, and I clearly remember it because it was a large part of the reason for the "Chiefs can't tackle in the open field" stigma that attached an asterisk to Miles Austin's 200 yard day.As for the Saints game... while my recollection of the exact sequence of events might be fuzzy, I distinctly recall watching that game and thinking "wow, Kolb isn't playing well, but he sure is racking up ridiculous counting stats because Philly's passing on every down".Again, I'm not saying that Kolb looked *BAD* in his limited action. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to suggest he couldn't have possibly looked any better. To my eyes, he didn't look appreciably better than, say, Jeff Garcia, Koy Detmer, or A.J. Feeley, to name a few other recent Philadelphia backups. He might wind up being a future pro bowler, but I don't think he's shown anything in his limited action on the field that suggests he has a greater than average shot at it. Obviously Reid gets to see him in practice and has a much larger body of evidence to draw upon, though.

 

[theglorydays]

I've always thought Mcnabb and Elway were good comparisons. But history will remember Elway because he has 2 rings.

And LOL if you thought Elway was a "great" passer.

 

[SSOG]

I've always thought Mcnabb and Elway were good comparisons. But history will remember Elway because he has 2 rings.And LOL if you thought Elway was a "great" passer.

History will remember Elway because he has 50,000 passing yards, a league MVP, a Man of the Year award, a SB MVP, a record 5 SB appearances, 2 rings, 9 pro bowls, and 162 career wins (a record that stood for a decade). McNabb's only 4 pro bowls, 20,000 passing yards, and 4 SB appearances behind. As far as rings defining who history remembers... you think history is going to remember Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Joe Theisman, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, or Jim McMahon? Did it remember Billy Wade? If winning 2 SBs is all it takes for history to regard a QB as great, then why doesn't history regard Jim Plunkett as great? It takes a lot more than rings to become more than a footnote in history.His 1993-1998 numbers certainly make a compelling case that Elway was a "great" passer who happened to play with garbage at the offensive line and receiver positions throughout the beginning of his career. To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that both had a similar style of play or that both played in similar circumstances (i.e. for a team with no weapons in the passing game) is one thing (something I'd wholly agree with- there are a lot of similarities between McNabb's career and Elway's). To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that they were comparable talents who performed at a comparable level, though, is something else entirely. I've got a lot of respect for McNabb, but he's no John Elway. Which isn't an insult, as few players are.I really don't know what's happening in this thread. Did no one in here pay attention during the 90s? First we have someone saying that Clinton Portis is a better RB than Terrell Davis (and, more than that, that he's more likely to make the HoF!), and then we have someone suggesting that McNabb is as good of a QB as John Elway was. Trust me, McNabb/Portis is a very poor imitation of Elway/Davis. I think that a strong case could be made that Elway/Davis was the greatest backfield of all time. There may have been better QBs than Elway, and there may have been better RBs than Davis, but no better QB than Elway ever played with a better RB than Davis. The only other tandem that I can think of that comes close is Warner/Faulk.

 

[Jason Wood]

FWIW, Peter King made the same comparison in this week's MMQB.

I can certainly see the similarities, but as the first poster indicated, Washington 2010 is a far cry from Denver 1997.

 

[Portis 26]

I've always thought Mcnabb and Elway were good comparisons. But history will remember Elway because he has 2 rings.And LOL if you thought Elway was a "great" passer.

History will remember Elway because he has 50,000 passing yards, a league MVP, a Man of the Year award, a SB MVP, a record 5 SB appearances, 2 rings, 9 pro bowls, and 162 career wins (a record that stood for a decade). McNabb's only 4 pro bowls, 20,000 passing yards, and 4 SB appearances behind. As far as rings defining who history remembers... you think history is going to remember Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Joe Theisman, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, or Jim McMahon? Did it remember Billy Wade? If winning 2 SBs is all it takes for history to regard a QB as great, then why doesn't history regard Jim Plunkett as great? It takes a lot more than rings to become more than a footnote in history.His 1993-1998 numbers certainly make a compelling case that Elway was a "great" passer who happened to play with garbage at the offensive line and receiver positions throughout the beginning of his career. To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that both had a similar style of play or that both played in similar circumstances (i.e. for a team with no weapons in the passing game) is one thing (something I'd wholly agree with- there are a lot of similarities between McNabb's career and Elway's). To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that they were comparable talents who performed at a comparable level, though, is something else entirely. I've got a lot of respect for McNabb, but he's no John Elway. Which isn't an insult, as few players are.I really don't know what's happening in this thread. Did no one in here pay attention during the 90s? First we have someone saying that Clinton Portis is a better RB than Terrell Davis (and, more than that, that he's more likely to make the HoF!), and then we have someone suggesting that McNabb is as good of a QB as John Elway was. Trust me, McNabb/Portis is a very poor imitation of Elway/Davis. I think that a strong case could be made that Elway/Davis was the greatest backfield of all time. There may have been better QBs than Elway, and there may have been better RBs than Davis, but no better QB than Elway ever played with a better RB than Davis. The only other tandem that I can think of that comes close is Warner/Faulk.

Montana/Craig? Aikman/Smith?

 

[Portis 26]

FWIW, Peter King made the same comparison in this week's MMQB.I can certainly see the similarities, but as the first poster indicated, Washington 2010 is a far cry from Denver 1997.

But is it a far cry from Denver 1995 when he took over? Guys like Terrell Davis, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey all emerged under Shanahan - the Denver team he took over was quite weak in many areas.

 

[Tanner9919]

Who said they were comparable?

 

[Sylira21]

The situations seem very similar, but it's rather superficial. I'm afraid the Redskins have a dearth of overall team talent that will take several years to overcome, as a best case scenario.

McNabb's a good QB, and this will make the Skins more competitive in the short run, but they're not going to win 2 Super Bowls with him.

 

[Polar Dude]

I think that a strong case could be made that Elway/Davis was the greatest backfield of all time. There may have been better QBs than Elway, and there may have been better RBs than Davis, but no better QB than Elway ever played with a better RB than Davis. The only other tandem that I can think of that comes close is Warner/Faulk.

Montana/Craig? Aikman/Smith?

Jim Brown/Otto Graham?

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think that a strong case could be made that Elway/Davis was the greatest backfield of all time. There may have been better QBs than Elway, and there may have been better RBs than Davis, but no better QB than Elway ever played with a better RB than Davis. The only other tandem that I can think of that comes close is Warner/Faulk.

Montana/Craig? Aikman/Smith?

Jim Brown/Otto Graham?

Otto Graham retired before Jim Brown entered the league.

 

[Matt Waldman]

As someone who watched Elway far more than I wanted, I think it's ok to compare McNabb to Elway as long as you have the clarity to understand that stats-wise McNabb might be better in some respects, but in skills Elway has the advantage. If Elway played in Andy Reid's pass-happy system for the length of his career Brett Favre might have to play another five years to reach Elway. We need to remember that Dan Reeves did not like to pass and was conservative with his scheme until it was absolutely necessary to take the governor off Elway's arm.

We can talk about Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, Smith, etc, but I think it would be analysis that goes overboard because the main reason Elway had big years in the twilight of his career was the fact Shannahan opened up the offense. It's not like Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, and Smith were high draft picks. They deserve their due as excellent players, but Elway was the catalyst.

I would prefer Shanny/McNabb over Shanny and Plummer, Brister, Griese, Cutler, or Campbell. Much prefer it in fact.

I think it's easy enough to say McNabb is an upgrade at the position and that (big if) if the Redskins can run the ball reasonably well this year, McNabb and the offense will benefit tremendously from the play action game, something that was hardly believable in Philly on a consistent basis since Ricky Watters left.

I think Shanny knows that between Parker, Johnson, Portis, and whomever else he brings into camp (Torain, a couple of rookies, etc.), he will find at least two guys that will help this offense on the ground.

I believe this team at least gets within the range of 7-9 wins this year and next year has a shot at 9-11 wins if the line can protect McNabb at key moments. The defense should be fine. They won't be under as much pressure now that they will be paired with an offense than should be able to execute.

 

[Chase Stuart]

SSOG's question is a good one. As named earlier, Warner/Faulk, Aikman/Emmitt and Montana/Craig are three of the best QB/RB trios of all-time. As far as single seasons go, Manning/James (2004), Young/Watters (1994), Green/Holmes (2002), Theismann/Riggins (1983), Dawson/Haynes (1962) and Jones/Mitchell (1976) are good ones, too. Staubach and Dorsett in '78 and Young/Hearst twenty years later shined for a season. Sid Luckman and Harry Clarke/George McAfee (1943/1941), Milt Plum and Jim Brown (1960), Sammy Baugh and **** Todd/Frank Akins (1940/1945) and Norm Van Brocklin and Tank Younger (1954) are some other old time standouts. As far as career wise goes, Unitas/Moore and Starr/Taylor should be on the list, too. Tarkenton and Foreman were good at the same time for a few years. So were Y.A. Tittle and Joe Perry and Tommy Thompson and Steve Van Buren. More recently, Kelly and Thomas were in their primes together for a number of years. Heck, Rivers and Tomlinson had a small overlap, too.

I agree that Elway/Davis is on the short list. What hurts them, though, is Elway, not Davis. In '96, Elway was very good but Davis was not on another level just yet; even still, Favre was the clear best QB in the league, and Testaverde, Young, Marino and Brunell all had big seasons. In '97, Young, Favre and Brunell were the clear best three Qbs in the league, and Jeff George, Drew Bledsoe, Boomer and Marino were arguably better than Elway that year, too. In '98, Cunningham, Young, Testaverde and Chandler all had enormous seasons. I think a bunch of the tandems had QBs and RBs who were in the top three at their position at the same time. Looking at Warner and Faulk in '99 and '01, and they were the #1 QB and #1 RB in the league. Same goes for Milt Plum and Jim Brown in 1960 and perhaps Thompson and Van Buren in '48. Then you have a combo like Taylor/Starr where they dominated year after year, post-season after post-season.

 

[munchkin]

As someone who watched Elway far more than I wanted, I think it's ok to compare McNabb to Elway as long as you have the clarity to understand that stats-wise McNabb might be better in some respects, but in skills Elway has the advantage. If Elway played in Andy Reid's pass-happy system for the length of his career Brett Favre might have to play another five years to reach Elway. We need to remember that Dan Reeves did not like to pass and was conservative with his scheme until it was absolutely necessary to take the governor off Elway's arm.

We can talk about Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, Smith, etc, but I think it would be analysis that goes overboard because the main reason Elway had big years in the twilight of his career was the fact Shannahan opened up the offense. It's not like Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, and Smith were high draft picks. They deserve their due as excellent players, but Elway was the catalyst.

I would prefer Shanny/McNabb over Shanny and Plummer, Brister, Griese, Cutler, or Campbell. Much prefer it in fact.

I think it's easy enough to say McNabb is an upgrade at the position and that (big if) if the Redskins can run the ball reasonably well this year, McNabb and the offense will benefit tremendously from the play action game, something that was hardly believable in Philly on a consistent basis since Ricky Watters left.

I think Shanny knows that between Parker, Johnson, Portis, and whomever else he brings into camp (Torain, a couple of rookies, etc.), he will find at least two guys that will help this offense on the ground.

I believe this team at least gets within the range of 7-9 wins this year and next year has a shot at 9-11 wins if the line can protect McNabb at key moments. The defense should be fine. They won't be under as much pressure now that they will be paired with an offense than should be able to execute.

How much will they be affected by the growing pains of learning to execute the 3-4? Maybe they see this first year as a chemistry building and learning year while year two will result in a much better record due to talent depth and experience.

 

[Black]

I've always thought Mcnabb and Elway were good comparisons. But history will remember Elway because he has 2 rings.And LOL if you thought Elway was a "great" passer.

History will remember Elway because he has 50,000 passing yards, a league MVP, a Man of the Year award, a SB MVP, a record 5 SB appearances, 2 rings, 9 pro bowls, and 162 career wins (a record that stood for a decade). McNabb's only 4 pro bowls, 20,000 passing yards, and 4 SB appearances behind. As far as rings defining who history remembers... you think history is going to remember Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Joe Theisman, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, or Jim McMahon? Did it remember Billy Wade? If winning 2 SBs is all it takes for history to regard a QB as great, then why doesn't history regard Jim Plunkett as great? It takes a lot more than rings to become more than a footnote in history.His 1993-1998 numbers certainly make a compelling case that Elway was a "great" passer who happened to play with garbage at the offensive line and receiver positions throughout the beginning of his career. To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that both had a similar style of play or that both played in similar circumstances (i.e. for a team with no weapons in the passing game) is one thing (something I'd wholly agree with- there are a lot of similarities between McNabb's career and Elway's). To say that McNabb is similar to Elway in that they were comparable talents who performed at a comparable level, though, is something else entirely. I've got a lot of respect for McNabb, but he's no John Elway. Which isn't an insult, as few players are.I really don't know what's happening in this thread. Did no one in here pay attention during the 90s? First we have someone saying that Clinton Portis is a better RB than Terrell Davis (and, more than that, that he's more likely to make the HoF!), and then we have someone suggesting that McNabb is as good of a QB as John Elway was. Trust me, McNabb/Portis is a very poor imitation of Elway/Davis. I think that a strong case could be made that Elway/Davis was the greatest backfield of all time. There may have been better QBs than Elway, and there may have been better RBs than Davis, but no better QB than Elway ever played with a better RB than Davis. The only other tandem that I can think of that comes close is Warner/Faulk.

So you're telling me there's a chance...

 

[drdgreenlove]

The comparisons are dumb.

First off, Shanahan inherited a good team when he took over Denver.. drafted Terrrell Davis who has several legendary seasons and the rest is history.

The Redskins are below average... not near the Broncos of the mid 1990s.

Shanahan has won one playoff game since 1998. ONE. So while he may be a good coach, he is far from a legend.

McNabb gets hurt a lot (misses 3 games per year since 2004)... is not the same QB he once was (cant scramble).. doesnt have the 2 minute offense mind of Elway... cant sustain long drives.. and does best by throwing a deep ball on a team that doesnt have receivers who can get down the field.

Shanhan/McNabb is closest to Parcells/Bledsoe (in Dallas).. a coach past his heyday paired with a QB on the decline

 

[dhockster]

I think people are missing the OP's point in comparing Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis.

It is not how did they did over the course of their careers or who had the bigger seasons, it is how good

was a young Terrell Davis in his prime when the Broncos won Superbowls, vs. how good is Clinton Portis NEXT YEAR

on the downside of his career. I don't think it is a really good comparison.

One thing I am curious to see with McNabb with the Redskins: If the Redskins run the ball more than the Eagles ran the ball with McNabb, will that adversely affect McNabb's rhythm and thus reduce his accuracy? I always thought Andy Reid's run/pass ratio had to be out of wack because he was trying to get McNabb into a rhythm. When McNabb went down in 2006 and Garcia came in, The Eagles run/pass ratio was much more balanced and the Eagles offense did not miss a beat. McNabb's comments in preseason last year when Vick was brought in a lot to run the wildcat was he did not like it because the offense could not get into a rhythm. I don't think it was the offense, but McNabb who could not get into rhythm.

We shall see.

 

[Matt Waldman]

As someone who watched Elway far more than I wanted, I think it's ok to compare McNabb to Elway as long as you have the clarity to understand that stats-wise McNabb might be better in some respects, but in skills Elway has the advantage. If Elway played in Andy Reid's pass-happy system for the length of his career Brett Favre might have to play another five years to reach Elway. We need to remember that Dan Reeves did not like to pass and was conservative with his scheme until it was absolutely necessary to take the governor off Elway's arm.

We can talk about Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, Smith, etc, but I think it would be analysis that goes overboard because the main reason Elway had big years in the twilight of his career was the fact Shannahan opened up the offense. It's not like Davis, Sharpe, McCaffrey, and Smith were high draft picks. They deserve their due as excellent players, but Elway was the catalyst.

I would prefer Shanny/McNabb over Shanny and Plummer, Brister, Griese, Cutler, or Campbell. Much prefer it in fact.

I think it's easy enough to say McNabb is an upgrade at the position and that (big if) if the Redskins can run the ball reasonably well this year, McNabb and the offense will benefit tremendously from the play action game, something that was hardly believable in Philly on a consistent basis since Ricky Watters left.

I think Shanny knows that between Parker, Johnson, Portis, and whomever else he brings into camp (Torain, a couple of rookies, etc.), he will find at least two guys that will help this offense on the ground.

I believe this team at least gets within the range of 7-9 wins this year and next year has a shot at 9-11 wins if the line can protect McNabb at key moments. The defense should be fine. They won't be under as much pressure now that they will be paired with an offense than should be able to execute.

How much will they be affected by the growing pains of learning to execute the 3-4? Maybe they see this first year as a chemistry building and learning year while year two will result in a much better record due to talent depth and experience.

I agree, year one won't be a good year on either side of the ball, but it won't be a disaster (fewer than 7 wins). Year two I believe we'll see things begin to work out. I think McNabb is a guy they picked to contend in years 2-4 and they can be more discriminating with their choice at QB to develop and eventually replace McNabb.

 

[TheFanatic]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

I would also take into account that Cowherd is, for the most part, a blithering idiot.

He may be a blithering idiot but the stats are there. McNabb has superior numbers to Elway in his first 11 seasons. There is no denying that. Lots of revisionist history going on here based on the success that Elway had after Shanahan and TD came to the Broncos. By no means am I saying that McNabb and Shanahan are going to go on to two SB's with the Redskins, but facts is facts and McNabb is the better QB at this point in their careers.

 

[drdgreenlove]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

I would also take into account that Cowherd is, for the most part, a blithering idiot.

He may be a blithering idiot but the stats are there. McNabb has superior numbers to Elway in his first 11 seasons. There is no denying that. Lots of revisionist history going on here based on the success that Elway had after Shanahan and TD came to the Broncos. By no means am I saying that McNabb and Shanahan are going to go on to two SB's with the Redskins, but facts is facts and McNabb is the better QB at this point in their careers.

The NFL is different.. and they played in different eras.. look at career QB rating. Of the top 20 on the list, 15 are active players. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...ting_career.htmIs Jeff Garcia the 15th best QB ever? By QB rating he is.

Norm Van Brocklin is 94th by rating.

Point is, you cannot directly compare Elway's and McNabb's stats..

McNabb is 15th among ACTIVE QBS in rating..

Success-wise they are comparable in their first 11 seasons, but Elway was a hair better.. Elway had 6 pro-bowls, McNabb 5. Elway 1 MVP, McNabb 0. Elway 3 super bowl appearances, McNabb 1.

This is how you compare them.. by comparing them to their piers... not to each other,.

 

[CalBear]

McNabb is 15th among ACTIVE QBS in rating..

Elway almost certainly was worse than this among active QBs after his first 11 years.

 

[TommyGilmore]

McNabb is 15th among ACTIVE QBS in rating..

Elway almost certainly was worse than this among active QBs after his first 11 years.

Among all quarterbacks who started at least 70 games from 1983 to 1993, Elway ranks 18th out of 20 players in terms of passer rating. But he's 2nd in passing yards (to Marino) and 6th in TDs.Applying the same formula to McNabb......McNabb is 12th out of 28 in terms of passer rating, 3rd in passing yards, and 4th in TDs.

 

[drdgreenlove]

McNabb is 15th among ACTIVE QBS in rating..

Elway almost certainly was worse than this among active QBs after his first 11 years.

Among all quarterbacks who started at least 70 games from 1983 to 1993, Elway ranks 18th out of 20 players in terms of passer rating. But he's 2nd in passing yards (to Marino) and 6th in TDs.Applying the same formula to McNabb......McNabb is 12th out of 28 in terms of passer rating, 3rd in passing yards, and 4th in TDs.

Interesting...TDs and passing yards are somewhat irrelevant because that reflects games played and longevity.. Didn't realize that Elway's numbers were that poor...That said, stats dont tell the whole story because of the whole 4th Quarter comeback thing.. McNabb last threw a TD on the last drive in 2003. Elway's stats were poor.. but it would be interesting to see his 4th quarter stats...overall perhaps McNabb is this generation's Elway.. would be interesting to see what Broncos fans thought of Elway in 1994... did many want him out of town?

 

[switz]

1. I knew Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis sir, you are no Terrell Davis

Maybe not at this point in his career, but give me a choice between the two the day they entered the NFL, and I'd take Portis 100% of the time.

 

[TheFanatic]

Who said they were comparable?

Colin Cowherd just did. He hammered the fact that McNabb's stats through his first 11 seasons were superior to Elway's first 11 seasons. "McNabb is better across the board!!" he kept saying.

I would also take into account that Cowherd is, for the most part, a blithering idiot.

He may be a blithering idiot but the stats are there. McNabb has superior numbers to Elway in his first 11 seasons. There is no denying that. Lots of revisionist history going on here based on the success that Elway had after Shanahan and TD came to the Broncos. By no means am I saying that McNabb and Shanahan are going to go on to two SB's with the Redskins, but facts is facts and McNabb is the better QB at this point in their careers.

The NFL is different.. and they played in different eras.. look at career QB rating. Of the top 20 on the list, 15 are active players. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...ting_career.htmIs Jeff Garcia the 15th best QB ever? By QB rating he is.

Norm Van Brocklin is 94th by rating.

Point is, you cannot directly compare Elway's and McNabb's stats..

McNabb is 15th among ACTIVE QBS in rating..

Success-wise they are comparable in their first 11 seasons, but Elway was a hair better.. Elway had 6 pro-bowls, McNabb 5. Elway 1 MVP, McNabb 0. Elway 3 super bowl appearances, McNabb 1.

This is how you compare them.. by comparing them to their piers... not to each other,.

You mention that Elway played in a different era and he did. He played in an era where the pass was not as pronounced. It is a pass happy league. McNabb's contemporaries are Manning, Brady, formerly Warner and now Brees can be put into that discussion. Elway didn't play in a league where a guy throws for 49TD's one year and another guy throws for 50 the next. You want to compare them to their peers, Elway's peers aren't on par with the crazy passing numbers you see today. Elway didn't play in a league were two guys had a legit shot at hitting 5K yards in the same season as Warner and Brees almost did recently.Elway played with Rod Smith and Shannon Sharpe and Easy Ed McAffery. Scoff at McAffery, but he was better than any WR on the Eagles save for about 4 years of McNabb's career.

The different era thing is a double edged sword...