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Shaun Alexander as good as a goner.. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
- Start date
Jason Wood
Zoo York
And Terrell Owens is traditionally up near the league lead too...drops is one of those things that, as long as it's coming with a commensurate level of excellence, you can live with.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I see TB grabbing a RB in the 3rd or 4th rounds, possibly second to push Pittman in Training camp and the entire season. I expect TB to have a starting RB at the end of the season that was selected in the draft in April....
Jim Brown hangover I think.He was just too good to replace.Or if you've lived in Cleveland for the past 20 years, you've never had an RB.Its just crazy. The Seahawks can throw away Ahman Green and Shaun Alexander and we can't get anything going over here.They're mistaken.............sometimes you don't know what you have until you've lost it.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Family Matters
Footballguy
Drops are tracked as a stat although I don't know if it's official. They are subjective based on if they are deemed catchable. Hence the subjectivity.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Well my WR1 & 2 in WSL. Obviously this mean there is opportunity for improvement from these 2 top 10 receivers.
Family Matters
Footballguy
IOW-no TD's?
Born to Run
Footballguy
Morris has shown terrific potential. SEA would be dumb to hand him the job without a plan B, but he deserves the first shot. Sign Hasselbeck, sign Jones to protect him and create holes, and pick up a RB with some upside like the dumper or grab the best RB talent that slips in the upcoming draft (3/4 rd).
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
% passes drop of targets for "drop leaders"
Code:
1 Az-Zahir Hakim DET 10 57 17.50%2 Josh Reed BUF 6 37 16.20%3 Dante Hall KCC 6 38 15.70%4 Koren Robinson SEA 10 67 14.90%5 Darius Watts DEN 6 53 11.30%6 Keary Colbert CAR 10 92 10.80%7 Santana Moss NYJ 7 78 8.90%8 Troy Edwards JAX 7 80 8.70%9 Rod Gardner WAS 9 106 8.40%9 David Patten NWE 8 95 8.40%11 Chad Johnson CIN 14 170 8.20%12 Antonio Bryant CLE 8 99 8.00%12 Donald Driver GNB 11 137 8.00%14 Doug Gabriel OAK 6 79 7.50%14 Eddie Kennison KCC 8 106 7.50%16 Jimmy Smith JAX 10 137 7.20%17 Darrell Jackson SEA 11 156 7.00%18 Roy Williams DET 7 118 5.90%19 Jerry Porter OAK 8 136 5.80%20 Marty Booker MIA 6 105 5.70%21 Amani Toomer NYG 6 107 5.60%22 Terrell Owens PHI 7 127 5.50%23 Isaac Bruce STL 8 148 5.40%24 Nate Burleson MIN 5 102 4.90%25 Drew Bennett TEN 7 144 4.80%26 Peerless Price ATL 5 106 4.70%26 Donte' Stallworth NOR 5 106 4.70%28 Eric Moulds BUF 7 152 4.60%29 Joe Horn NOR 7 153 4.50%30 Rod Smith DEN 6 136 4.40%31 Laveranues Coles WAS 7 168 4.10%32 Muhsin Muhammad CAR 6 160 3.70%
zamboni
Footballguy
I still don't see where people are getting this "Morris has great potential" argument.It seems like Holmgren said some positive things about him a few years ago, and all of a sudden he's the second coming of Alexander.He's had exactly 100 carries in his career for 518 yards. Granted, that's a gaudy 5.2 YPC, but a very small sample and a lot of them most likely on 3rd and long.I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, but I'm just not seeing where all the pro-Morris talk is coming from.
Born to Run
Footballguy
Where is all the pro-Morris talk? It's not in this thread. I happen to think he could be very productive if given opportunity, something he won't get behind SA. My comments were based on watching him. SA was hurt some in '03 and Morris got some carries. He looked good.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Most teams pass on 3rd & long unless they are inside their 10. Then you usually see a 2-3 yard gain.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
One name that is constantly lost in the Seattle free agency shuffle: Robbie Tobeck. Starting C for 64 straight games might be gone after this season. He's getting old, but you never wanna see guys from a consistent unit leave. Their backup C is an undrafted FA out of NFL Europe.Also starting RG Chris Gray (80 straight starts) is a FA. Another old guy, but that's potentially 3 o-linemen who could be gone in Seattle for all you "they have to sign Shaun Alexander first" guys.Seattle has actually had a history of excellent production at RB from Warner to Warren to Watters to Alexander. I believe Alexander has proven himself to be extremly productive and don't necessarily agree with Shick! that you could plug any decent RB into that system and have the same production, however I think it's clear that there's always been a locker room/personality issue with Alexander and Holmgren. Whether that extends to Alexander and other players is an unknown.However, there is such an abundance of RB talent available via free agency, trade and the draft I hardly think it's unreasonable for SEA to prioritize their three big free agents as:1) Walter Jones2) Walter Jones3) Walter Jones (nice call Ruds)4) Matt Hasselbeck5) Shaun Alexander
Family Matters
Footballguy
Pleas explain. You're not saying he doesn't have talent but what are you saying? Some say he looks good and could be the man. I think he can be the man and while he's only had 100 carries I do not see where those carry do anything other than acknowledge he must be pretty good. Alexander hasn't been injured so he hasn't been give the opportunity. The coaches see him in practice every day and have the advantage over us in eveluating him. Do you feel he could be the man? Or are you saying he hasn't looked good and cannot be the man? If so, what is it you do not like about him?
Brintey Spears
Footballguy
I live in Seattle and see a lot of Seahawk games. I am not a big fan however.
But here's my thoughts:
Alexander is gone. He wants WAY too much money, and doesn't particularly want to play for Seattle. He wants notoriety, and a team that he is the star on. I know he's a quiet guy, but he's said on several occasions that he wants to be more in the spotlight. Also, he has earned the right to ask for a lot of money with his huge statistics.
He is a very talented back. However, he is not a hard runner, and if ever a running back was finesse, he would be it. He "slides" into holes. Which can get be a great thing sometimes. However, it's very frustrating to Holmgren, and a lot of the fans. He really only appears to run hard near the goal line. Also, it gives the team a weak feeling. Some teams can just bash at the defense and take their will away. Seattle could never do this with Alexander. Seattle never competes with the tough teams due to this mentality. The grittiest skill guy on the offense is the QB. That is pretty lame.
As for his replacement, Morris is not a starting quality back. Holmgren is very complimentary of him, and he is an excellent reciever, but he just isn't a great back. He is pretty quick, but not very powerful at all. He seems to be suited for the 3rd down role.
If I was running management, I would make a strong effort to sign a back, or draft one very early. Someone mentioned a combo of Morris/3rd-4th round pick at the RB spot. This will NOT get it done in my view. Seattle, as weak as they are, can still compete in this horrid division. They will want a decent running game.
Team priorities should be:
1. Jones - Tag, or prefferably longer term deal.
2. Hasselbeck - Long term deal, not worth the tag.
3. Ken Lucas - Keep the CB tandem in line. This is not the weakness of the defense.
4. Alexander - At this low of a priority, you can say goodbye. Hopefully they can use the tag on him to get some value in return.
But here's my thoughts:
Alexander is gone. He wants WAY too much money, and doesn't particularly want to play for Seattle. He wants notoriety, and a team that he is the star on. I know he's a quiet guy, but he's said on several occasions that he wants to be more in the spotlight. Also, he has earned the right to ask for a lot of money with his huge statistics.
He is a very talented back. However, he is not a hard runner, and if ever a running back was finesse, he would be it. He "slides" into holes. Which can get be a great thing sometimes. However, it's very frustrating to Holmgren, and a lot of the fans. He really only appears to run hard near the goal line. Also, it gives the team a weak feeling. Some teams can just bash at the defense and take their will away. Seattle could never do this with Alexander. Seattle never competes with the tough teams due to this mentality. The grittiest skill guy on the offense is the QB. That is pretty lame.
As for his replacement, Morris is not a starting quality back. Holmgren is very complimentary of him, and he is an excellent reciever, but he just isn't a great back. He is pretty quick, but not very powerful at all. He seems to be suited for the 3rd down role.
If I was running management, I would make a strong effort to sign a back, or draft one very early. Someone mentioned a combo of Morris/3rd-4th round pick at the RB spot. This will NOT get it done in my view. Seattle, as weak as they are, can still compete in this horrid division. They will want a decent running game.
Team priorities should be:
1. Jones - Tag, or prefferably longer term deal.
2. Hasselbeck - Long term deal, not worth the tag.
3. Ken Lucas - Keep the CB tandem in line. This is not the weakness of the defense.
4. Alexander - At this low of a priority, you can say goodbye. Hopefully they can use the tag on him to get some value in return.
boubucarow
Footballguy
Gotta agree. More than 4 for sure.
zamboni
Footballguy
My point is that I don't know if he has the talent, since I haven't seen him play that much. That said, I haven't heard a whole lot from Seahawks brass that he can or will assume the reins as an everydown back. I lump him into the Verron Haynes camp in terms of "potential" players that coaches say some nice things about, and a lot of us FBGs (myself included) tend to overanalyze. But when it comes down to it, all these guys wind up being is solid backups or 3rd down guys.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Raises a good point, sometimes overlooked. Coaches almost always say good things about their backups, partly because it keeps them motivated, partly to make news about them, and partly because they truly mean it - maybe from a good practice or a few good plays. But FFers very often take this as gospel. Mo and Haynes are top examples, but a better one may be Lamont Jordan. The coaches and even Curtis Martin say he's an exceptional talent, needs to play more, etc. Well, they've said that for at least 3 years now, but he is still a backup, CurMar still getting the vast majority of the carries. Bottom line: take anything said with a grain of salt.
zamboni
Footballguy
I generally agree with you, and while this is for another thread, I would put Jordan above these guys. Yes, he's a guy that people (including Curtis) have said good things about, but there's a "buzz" around the league about Jordan that doesn't appear to be evident with Morris or Haynes.
houndirish
Footballguy
Methinks the Giants and Seahawks should just swap running backs. Dayne goes to Seatlle, Alexander comes to the Big Apple. That way everybody who secondguessed Accorsi for taking Dayne in the first place can see how the RB who should've been drafted in Dayne's spot would perform in the Giants O.If Holmgren dislikes Alexander I can't come up with a word for how he'll feel about Dayne!
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
I'll take your betI'll say this... If Alexander does go, Holmgren won't be far behind because there's no way Seattle makes it back to the playoffs.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
IMHO Alexander is moreso a by-product of the Seattle offense and O-line. Seattle's O-line is in the same breath as Denver and KC and look what they can do. Just look at this year in KC to see that they could plug ANY RB in there and he will be productive. Same idea in Seattle.Everyone thought Portis was a god-send in Denver. Why, oh Why would they let him go if he is the one of the best RBs in the game at the time like all of you are shouting right now about Alexander? What happened with Droughns this year? You think Droughns is that good or are his numbers are moreso a by-product of the O-line? Same idea in Seattle. Behind a line like this in Seattle, there are many RBs who could amass the numbers Alexander did and hence that makes him replacebale and not worth all the money he may be asking for.
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bueno
In a class by himself
I think it comes down to the cap with Alexander and he is likely gone. But:With all the RBs available this off-season, how will the market respond to demand? It is likely that Alexander won't get the bucks he wants no matter where he ends up. So any chance that Seattle makes him a decent offer, and then let's him test the waters hoping he comes back?After all, other teams will have the same situation: big bucks for Alexander or less bucks for Henry or Moore or A-Train or whoever.
guderian
Footballguy
Leading RB on Holmgren's teams:
Alexander has certainly been the Bell cow, but Holmgren has had a 1,000 yard back in 8 of 13 seasons...and 7 of those were 1,200 yard backs.
Code:
Alexander 353/1696/16Alexander 326/1435/14Alexander 295/1175/16Alexander 309/1318/16Watters 278/1242/7Watters 325/1210/5Holmes 93/386/1Levens 329/1435/7Bennett 222/899/2Bennett 316/1067/3Bennett 178/623/5Thompson 169/6543Workman 159/631/2
Jackal
Footballguy
with all this talk of alexander being a by product of the seattle offense, has anyone lookedat edge? rhodes and mungro put uppretty decent stats in the past while filling in for an injured edge. as far as alexander wanting way too much money, does anyone evn know what kind of cash he is looking for?
gump
Footballguy
I strongly disagree.Portis, Terrell Davis, Mike Anderson, Reuben D, Priest Holmes, Derrick Blalock, etc... all backs who were under the radar, who never did anything special in their careers, who exploded on to the scene being in the right system.SA has been a star ever since he put on cleats. He holds scoring records in every level he has played in, included the SEC. Alexander is a star, and always has been. Nothing to do with the system.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Damn, I was going post "Bring back Clarence Farmer!!"
-OZ-
Footballguy
When was Clinton Portis not a star, under the radar? He was a 2nd round pick, from Miami (FL) and highly regarded. The only reason he slipped was fumbling issues.Much like Portis, Alexander has been in the right system from the start, so your argument fails there.If he had started out in another city and been very good, then it would have more merit.BTW - Priest did have one good year in Baltimore.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I won't argue about them being fools, the firing of Whitsett sort of proves that, but SA is a weird situation. He will NOT succeed as highly in another system with a lesser OL. Additionally, the passing game should pick up next year cutting into his numbers. SA is not going to another team with such inconsistent WRs, so his production won't be that high. ALso, with all the FAs the 'Hawks have to sign, using half of their money on one player doesn't make sense when they can get 80% of his production from much cheaper sources. As long as they use the money to resign Jones (who STILL wants record setting $$) and LG Hutchinson. Hass is as good as re-signed with Holmgren still here. He'd be a complete fool to go out from under Holmie's umbrella and I don't think he's a fool. Some him some WRs that can CATCH THE #######G BALL and he's a regular in Hawaii every year. AS for Jackson, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because of the sickness and death of his father, I'll pass judgement on him if he doesn't pick it up next year.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I'll add that no back is likely to come into Seattle and put up 1700 yards and 20 TDs, regardless of the line. It could happen, but nobody expects any back to come in there and produce as much as SA. But with the system and line there, another back could put up similar numbers. The goal would be to raise the passing production (i.e. catch the ball) to "compensate" for the drop in RB production. SA is clearly a special back, but he is not a complete elite back. His stats will command a huge contract wherever god wants him to be and the Hawks have more glaring needs to fill than spend a lot on a primadonna who can't be counted on to get 1 yard when the pressure's on. Whoever overpays for him will find out quickly how much the line had to do with his success. Not to take any of it away from him, but he gets tons of yards before he's even touched and isn't a defense dominating physical back. Portis' production dropped in the new system into the upper average area and I'd expect SA to do the same (or worse in Miami). However it goes, we have too many key people to sign to break the bank for one player. I'll gladly take a 15-20% drop in RB production to keep the core of the team together and improve the passing and defensive games.
This quote taken from a previous Seattle/SA thread seems to sum it up best IMO.
"...It's hard to list his strengths because his has a somewhat odd running style... IMO.He does not have blazing speed ala Portis.He does not have the best cut backs ala Tomlinson.He rarely runs over defenders ala Bettis.Not the best stiff arm ala Dillon.Here's what I like about Shaun:1) Runs low....difficult to tackle.2) Never never never ever takes a big hit. This keeps him healthy.3) I think he understands the running game....in that he knows when to just fall forward for three yards. Some backs are looking to hit that homerun every play and end up running up the ### of their blocks and take losses. Shaun is patient and always follows his blocks.4) In the open field he is elusive, not amazing but very effective.5) Can catch the ball out the backfield...again very solid not spectular.6) He's not a loud mouth..other than this latest "stabbed" incident.7) Extremly good on blizt pick up.8) Always gets stronger as the game goes on. Great in the 4th Quarter...."Here's another good one... IMO. "...In Alexander’s first four full seasons of play...... has never missed a game due to injury.... has averaged 320 carries a season.... has averaged 1406 rushing yards a season.... has averaged 42 receptions a season.... has averaged 342 receiving yards a season.... has averaged 17.5 total TDs a season...."
Kleck
Footballguy
The Seattle coaching staff strenuously disagrees. Alexander was getting benched on 3rd and long at the end of the season for this specific reason. Both Morris and Strong were on the field way more often on third down. This is main reason for his big decline in receptions this season.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
That is Shaun Alexander. He dances around the line of scrimmage and never runs for the 4-5 yards, instead he tries to get the big run on every play. Its good in some regards but brutal when you are trying to move the sticks and keep a drive alive.Alexander may be a decent back, but playing behind Seattle' line has inflated his numbers substantially. If he does in fact leave to a team that has a weaker O-line, you will see this.
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fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
That right system is an awesome O-line.Playing behind a great O-line does wonders for a running game. Alexander may have been a star his whole life, but if he was playing elsewhere, he would not be close to the stats he has now in Seattle.Just look at those RBs you named and tell me how a great O-line affected them? It would be great to have Alexander back but not if it means breaking the bank and not being able to improve the team in other aspects.
