Should Nancy Pelosi go to Taiwan? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

OK take off your partisan caps for a moment. I know that some of you despise Nancy Pelosi and will by knee jerk be against everything she does, while others (like me) will be defensive of her. Which creates the usual conservative vs liberal divide, which is unnecessary and unwanted for this discussion. 

Pelosi intends to visit Taiwan. We have a lot of ties to Taiwan, lot of trade. But high level American politicians don’t visit there because it pisses off China. For this reason, both the State Department and the Joint Chiefs are advising Pelosi not to go. 

Should Pelosi go to Taiwan? And I guess the larger question is what should be our relationship with Taiwan in the future? And with China for that matter? 

 

[timschochet]

Good article here: 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna40229

 

[Juxtatarot]

I don’t understand what the benefit for the U.S. would be by her going.

 

[BassNBrew]

Before I answer, can you tell me if she has a confirmed return ticket?

 

[BassNBrew]

I don’t understand what the benefit for the U.S. would be by her going.

Pretty similar to Trump skipping a day in the White House to go golfing is a benefit to the US.

 

[Osaurus]

I'm more worried about her luggage

 

[Max Power]

No.  This issue is causing A LOT of problems behind the scenes.  To my knowledge, Joe Biden has yet to openly support this idea.  

What are the rewards? Support to Taiwan.

What are the risks?  International incident, potential conflict. US has to move military assets in response and potentially escalate tensions. 

I'm not against the idea of her going.  I'm against the idea of her going while everyone else isn't on the same page about it.  

 

[RCon]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a political question to which I care less about the answer.  Go, don't go, who cares...

 

[HellToupee]

Yes

 

[Cowboysfan8]

OK take off your partisan caps for a moment. I know that some of you despise Nancy Pelosi and will by knee jerk be against everything she does, while others (like me) will be defensive of her. Which creates the usual conservative vs liberal divide, which is unnecessary and unwanted for this discussion. 

Pelosi intends to visit Taiwan. We have a lot of ties to Taiwan, lot of trade. But high level American politicians don’t visit there because it pisses off China. For this reason, both the State Department and the Joint Chiefs are advising Pelosi not to go. 

Should Pelosi go to Taiwan? And I guess the larger question is what should be our relationship with Taiwan in the future? And with China for that matter? 

They screwed the pooch on this one bigly.

Brit Hume nailed it -

It's] putting the U.S. in a position where if she goes, that we're worried that there will be an escalation of some kind," he said, citing remarks to that effect from top Biden ally Sen. Christopher Coons, D-Del
 

And if she doesn't go, it looks like we backed down in the face of threats to China," he said – as China views Taiwan as part of its country, while the Taipei government views themselves sovereign.

"But this is sometimes how war start. So it is worrisome and it is a regular mess."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/us-stumbled-mess-pelosi-taiwan-trip-risks-escalation-xi-win-hume.amp

 

[Summer Wheat]

Why not?  Nancy is long in the tooth now but it will Give the people of Taiwan a chance to meet the GREATEST speaker in the history of our country! 

Can`t remember who said that here but I read that somewhere.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

https://radio.foxnews.com/2022/07/25/morgan-ortagus-pelosis-trip-to-taiwan-should-never-have-been-talked-about-in-advance/
 

seems obvious 

 

[nysfl2]

Seems like a bad idea, especially if the State Department and Joint Chiefs are opposed to the idea. 

The last thing that we want to do right now is provoke China into providing more overt assistance to Russia in Ukraine.

 

[ren hoek]

I've been to Taiwan and spent some time in Taipei.  Just a beautiful country, everything super affordable too as a tourist.  I want them to have independence, but I don't think the US is really interested in that so much as using it for another proxy war.  

Nancy Pelosi is an out of touch millionaire, I can't imagine why anyone there would want to see her or trust the US' intentions.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I read the article. I missed the part where it stated what was good about the visit from the U.S. perspective. Without a clear answer as to how this benefits the U.S., I'll vote no, she shouldn't go. If we want to show support for Taiwan, maybe have a Zoom call. 

 

[crackattack]

No.

 

[The Commish]

What's the point and/or benefit to us?

 

[Amused to Death]

Follow the advice of the State Department.

 

[Godsbrother]

I read the article. I missed the part where it stated what was good about the visit from the U.S. perspective. Without a clear answer as to how this benefits the U.S., I'll vote no, she shouldn't go. If we want to show support for Taiwan, maybe have a Zoom call. 

Agreed.  I don't see much upside but if someone can articulate it I am open to changing my mind.   

 

[Bogeys]

No, this is a diplomatic visit (whether framed that way or not) and the Speaker has no business conducting foreign policy against the wishes of the Executive branch.  

 

[SoBeDad]

I read the article. I missed the part where it stated what was good about the visit from the U.S. perspective. Without a clear answer as to how this benefits the U.S., I'll vote no, she shouldn't go. If we want to show support for Taiwan, maybe have a Zoom call. 

I don't see the benefit either. Her district has many Chinese Americans. Are they pushing her to go?

 

[timschochet]

Agreed.  I don't see much upside but if someone can articulate it I am open to changing my mind.   

The only reason that I can find in any of the news about this is that if she does NOT go now, it makes us look weak. That’s not a very compelling argument  by itself. 

 

[timschochet]

I don't see the benefit either. Her district has many Chinese Americans. Are they pushing her to go?

Most Chinese in San Fran date their immigration back to the 19th century. I doubt there are ties to Taiwan but I could be wrong about that. 

 

[timschochet]

Why not?  Nancy is long in the tooth now but it will Give the people of Taiwan a chance to meet the GREATEST speaker in the history of our country! 

Can`t remember who said that here but I read that somewhere.

Yes I’ve made this argument and I’m prepared to defend it. However if Pelosi goes through with this trip and it is a disaster for us, it could threaten to overwhelm her entire legacy. 

 

[HellToupee]

At first I was against her going but screw it , China shouldn’t be able to dictate who goes where from our government. Let her go and get stock tips for her husband and they better not knock a lock or her hair out of place

 

[HellToupee]

overwhelm her entire legacy. 

It’s already in the

 

[Stoneworker]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a political question to which I care less about the answer.  Go, don't go, who cares...

Less than a year ago Biden met with Zelensky in the Oval Office to discuss NATO support for Ukraine.

At the time most people couldn't care less about that meeting, either...

 

[timschochet]

This is also, frankly, Biden’s fault. He was asked by a reporter and said that the military was opposed. He never said whether HE was opposed. He shouldn’t have said that, or offered ANY opinion. It pretty much forced China to respond and increased tensions. 
I’ve defended Biden but this was a pretty bad blunder. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

The only reason that I can find in any of the news about this is that if she does NOT go now, it makes us look weak. That’s not a very compelling argument  by itself. 

Yes I’ve made this argument and I’m prepared to defend it. However if Pelosi goes through with this trip and it is a disaster for us, it could threaten to overwhelm her entire legacy. 

Makes us look weak: not a compelling argument

Chance to meet the GREATEST SPEAKER EVAH (How lucky they are for her to grace them with her presence): Compelling argument

 

[Stoneworker]

I vote resounding No.

This administration does not have a coherent policy toward China/Taiwan that reflects what is now happening in Russia/Ukraine.

Even Biden himself has made multiple gaffes erroneously citing what our military responsibilities are vis-a-vis defending Taiwan.

Pelosi going there without a stated diplomatic mission in coordination with the highest levels is reckless.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Off the cuff, I'm inclined to say yes.  We tried engaging China economically, and instead of making China more liberal it made the US more authoritarian.  Maybe it's better to just do the right thing and support Taiwan.  If this sends a message to China that pisses them off, I can handle that.

 

[Max Power]

This is also, frankly, Biden’s fault. He was asked by a reporter and said that the military was opposed. He never said whether HE was opposed. He shouldn’t have said that, or offered ANY opinion. It pretty much forced China to respond and increased tensions. 
I’ve defended Biden but this was a pretty bad blunder. 

Does the military not listen to Biden?  He tells us what to do. Biden himself doesn't think its a good idea. 

 

[Desert_Power]

If she does, I recommend trying the oyster pancakes at their night markets and packing two pairs of clothes per day.

 

[Summer Wheat]

Yes I’ve made this argument and I’m prepared to defend it. However if Pelosi goes through with this trip and it is a disaster for us, it could threaten to overwhelm her entire legacy. 

Nancy will not buck Old Joe on this one.

And what exactly will she accomplish if she went there?

 

[DocHolliday]

She must go now.   If not, it makes the US look weak.  I wouldn’t be upset if she didn’t make it back any time soon.   

 

[-fish-]

I think Nancy may be about to test positive for covid.

 

[The Big Donkey]

she should go. i just haven't figured out Paul's angle yet.   i'm following that money.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Should Pelosi go to Taiwan? 

The question is: should she come back?

Also, WTF?

 

[supermike80]

Off the cuff, I'm inclined to say yes.  We tried engaging China economically, and instead of making China more liberal it made the US more authoritarian.  Maybe it's better to just do the right thing and support Taiwan.  If this sends a message to China that pisses them off, I can handle that.

This.   I'm getting a little tired of us getting shaky every time China rattles their Saber.   Show some balls.  

 

[jamny]

To me, there's no denying that if she decides not to go, it will be to appease China and back down to their threat. Now, do you feel that is worth it at this time? 

I feel she has to go. 

 

[dickey moe]

If the intent is to conduct the people's business, and not to purely piss off China, then yes. Not a fan of totalitarian regimes dictating where U.S. citizens can and can't travel to.

 

[Max Power]

We went back and forth every day this week on if we were going to move some people because of this trip. 

Either way this feels very disjointed from the support end. There are clearly some disagreements at the DC level.

I'm guessing she isnt going. 

 

[rockaction]

Could be the greatest boon for human rights in a while. Then again, that boon could lead us to a stand-off with China. 

Not a big fan of that. This is the sort of thing that should have been done with unanimous support from the departments in the executive branch or not at all. 

They really ####ed up with this. 

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Could be the greatest boon for human rights in a while. Then again, that boon could lead us to a stand-off with China. 

Not a big fan of that. This is the sort of thing that should have been done with unanimous support from the departments in the executive branch or not at all. 

They really ####ed up with this. 

The opposite.

This is a high level masterclass of putting China and Xi Jinping in particular in its place. Jinping is entering the closing stages of trying to get a third term. If he gets it unchallenged, his power increases. The US has little leverage to influence the internal party politics of the Chinese communist party, although if you believe some posters in here, Jinping would be a moderate in the Democrat party. Ridiculous....anyway, the achilles heel for China is Taiwan. Biden pronouncing it would defend Taiwan and now threatening to send Pelosi makes Xi look weak. He is almost certain to be returned for a third term, but it will be with weakened power, making a fourth term difficult. Collective leadership is quite possible after many within the communist party are doing the unthinkable and questioning Xi’s leadership. His handling of Covid, risky economic strategy and the US taunting him over Taiwan make it hard to consolidate his cult of personality. This isnt Russia, he cant wipe out any threat to his leadership. The party machine is strong enough to move elsewhere if it sees him as weak and can find better. The US foreign policy has been first class here. Whether Pelosi goes or not is irrelevant. She probably wont. Its dangled to make Xi look weak. Mission accomplished. 

 

[timschochet]

The opposite.

This is a high level masterclass of putting China and Xi Jinping in particular in its place. Jinping is entering the closing stages of trying to get a third term. If he gets it unchallenged, his power increases. The US has little leverage to influence the internal party politics of the Chinese communist party, although if you believe some posters in here, Jinping would be a moderate in the Democrat party. Ridiculous....anyway, the achilles heel for China is Taiwan. Biden pronouncing it would defend Taiwan and now threatening to send Pelosi makes Xi look weak. He is almost certain to be returned for a third term, but it will be with weakened power, making a fourth term difficult. Collective leadership is quite possible after many within the communist party are doing the unthinkable and questioning Xi’s leadership. His handling of Covid, risky economic strategy and the US taunting him over Taiwan make it hard to consolidate his cult of personality. This isnt Russia, he cant wipe out any threat to his leadership. The party machine is strong enough to move elsewhere if it sees him as weak and can find better. The US foreign policy has been first class here. Whether Pelosi goes or not is irrelevant. She probably wont. Its dangled to make Xi look weak. Mission accomplished. 

Fascinating take and one I haven’t encountered anywhere else. The reporting on this, from numerous sources, suggests that the decision making here was indeed chaotic and not as purposeful or as 5D chess as you’re making out. Still the result could be what you claim. 

 

[rockaction]

5D chess

This exactly what I thought JML was going for and I was going to say that I don't really trust these bobos to be that synched in to world events and to act in such a tactical manner. This is the lady who said "Are you serious?" about the mandate and has also said something along the lines (something along the lines, anyway) of "we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it." This is the president who once called for a man in a wheelchair to stand up and get recognized for his courage and has so many gaffes along the way it's hard to keep track. 

Color me totally skeptical she's on any page with the executive branch on this one. 

 

[rockaction]

I would love if JML was correct about this. I very much doubt it. 

 

[Stoneworker]

Biden has already twice impulsively blurted out publicly that he would intervene militarily to defend Taiwan if China showed aggression, showing his complete ignorance of the existing treaty. Both times Biden's handlers and military needed to walk him back immediately.

The notion that Biden is playing some Kissinger-esque foreign policy chess is just ridiculous.

China and Xi will read this move only one way, like the bumbling Keystone cops show that it is.

 

[quick-hands]

OK take off your partisan caps for a moment. I know that some of you despise Nancy Pelosi and will by knee jerk be against everything she does, while others (like me) will be defensive of her. Which creates the usual conservative vs liberal divide, which is unnecessary and unwanted for this discussion. 

Pelosi intends to visit Taiwan. We have a lot of ties to Taiwan, lot of trade. But high level American politicians don’t visit there because it pisses off China. For this reason, both the State Department and the Joint Chiefs are advising Pelosi not to go. 

Should Pelosi go to Taiwan? And I guess the larger question is what should be our relationship with Taiwan in the future? And with China for that matter? 

she has to go now

 

[HellToupee]

Fast Eddie Markey leads a delegation to Taiwan. Nice guy but might be even less lucid than Biden