Should White defendants be punished more harshly to create racial equality in the justice system? (1 Viewer)

[jm192]

A lot of people are arguing "If Rittenhouse were black..."  "A black guy would never walk in this situation."  "You know if he were black they wouldn't even have a trial."

I think a lot of people in this country, myself included, believes the criminal justice system is unfair to black Americans.  By arguing the above--it seems to be that people are suggesting that it's ok--and we just need to treat white People unfairly to even it out.  Is that the case?

Or should the standard of "If he were black he'd be treated unfairly" not be thrown out like this?  Should we maybe focus on criminal justice reform and racial disparities--not simply hoping the white kid gets life in prison "because you know a black kid would"

 

[unckeyherb]

Punitive race based justice seems suboptimal.  

 

[John123]

Punitive race based justice seems suboptimal.  

Yep.  I thought the same thing about Survivor casting.  Turns out I was right.

 

[Rich Conway]

A lot of people are arguing "If Rittenhouse were black..."  "A black guy would never walk in this situation."  "You know if he were black they wouldn't even have a trial."

I think a lot of people in this country, myself included, believes the criminal justice system is unfair to black Americans.  By arguing the above--it seems to be that people are suggesting that it's ok--and we just need to treat white People unfairly to even it out.  Is that the case?

Or should the standard of "If he were black he'd be treated unfairly" not be thrown out like this?  Should we maybe focus on criminal justice reform and racial disparities--not simply hoping the white kid gets life in prison "because you know a black kid would"

We shouldn't treat white people unfairly because black people are treated unfairly.  Instead, we should stop treating black people unfairly.  Also, not saying I believe the first, but I don't think that a belief that "if Rittenhouse were black the outcome would have been different" necessarily means one also believes the justice system should treat white people unfairly (or should have treated Rittenhouse unfairly).

 

[tonydead]

Should we be racist to make up for racial injustice?    How is it possible to think like that?

 

[Max Power]

Binger should have to prosecute all POCs and the numbers will even out. 

 

[Rich Conway]

Should we be racist to make up for racial injustice?    How is it possible to think like that?

These forums are a primer on how.  How many posters here think it's OK for Democrats to behave like X because Republicans did it first and vice versa?  At some level, is "we should act in a racist fashion because those other guys did first" much different?

 

[Dickies]

I don't think white people should be punished more harshly.  

It's my view that our justice system is heavy-handed in doling out punishment.  Just because black people bear the brunt of it does not mean I want white people treated equally unjust.

 

[song]

yes absolutely, all white defendants should be executed, in the interest of equity, not equality.

 

[zoonation]

Absolutely not.  The fact the question is even being asked is an indictment on the state of the socio-political reality in 2021 America.  

 

[tonydead]

These forums are a primer on how.  How many posters here think it's OK for Democrats to behave like X because Republicans did it first and vice versa?  At some level, is "we should act in a racist fashion because those other guys did first" much different?

. What?

 

[Caveman33]

I saw an article where various athletes were contrasting the Rittenhouse case with Julius Jones, the fatal carjacker whose death sentence was just commuted to life without parole.  These cases are not at all similar and contrary to what they claim, the evidence against Jones is overwhelming.  When low information learners with big platforms make comparisons like this, it muddies the intellectual waters of the justice debate.  Is there still disparity in the justice system based on race?  Maybe.  Some studies have claimed black people receive harsher sentences than white people when all variables are controlled.  But given the enormous bias around around this issue, it would be reasonable to be skeptical of how fairly they controlled those variables. 

 

[ekbeats]

We need to have a nonpartisan study commissioned to study when and where racial imbalances exist within the Justice system, and then have done intelligent discussions about how we should deal with that data.  The fact we can’t do that in this country in 2021is pretty sad.

 

[ekbeats]

. What?

That sounds like what happens when a lawyer gets drunk.

 

[The Z Machine]

We need to have a nonpartisan study commissioned to study when and where racial imbalances exist within the Justice system, and then have done intelligent discussions about how we should deal with that data.  The fact we can’t do that in this country in 2021is pretty sad.

What makes you think these haven't been done?

 

[ekbeats]

What makes you think these haven't been done?

Seems like a lot of the studies I've seen have been politically slanted, at least in terms of the conclusions drawn.

 

[The Z Machine]

Seems like a lot of the studies I've seen have been politically slanted, at least in terms of the conclusions drawn.

Can you point me to such a study?

Have you seen any in academic journals?

 

[ekbeats]

Can you point me to such a study?

Have you seen any in academic journals?

To be honest I've only seen a couple.  Shame on me actually.  What are your thoughts on what's going on?

 

[ekbeats]

Maybe I watched too much LivePD, but I think the heart of the problem is that we've allowed cops too much leeway in when they can searches (of vehicle or person).  Time to reinforce our civil liberties.  It's actually something both sides should be able to find common ground on.  Stop with the broken window policing.  Stop pulling people over for not using their ####### blinker on a road with no other cars coming.  That is what set Sandra Bland off, and she was right. And for God's sake legalize drugs and prostitution.  We do those things and I firmly believe the disparity gap closes dramatically.

 

[The Z Machine]

To be honest I've only seen a couple.  Shame on me actually.  What are your thoughts on what's going on?

I think there's systemic racism and inherent bias in the criminal justice system against people of color.  There's absolutely class division in determination of outcomes, but socioeconomic status alone is unlikely to explain all of the discrepancy in outcomes. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Maybe I watched too much LivePD, but I think the heart of the problem is that we've allowed cops too much leeway in when they can searches (of vehicle or person).  Time to reinforce our civil liberties.  It's actually something both sides should be able to find common ground on.  Stop with the broken window policing.  Stop pulling people over for not using their ####### blinker on a road with no other cars coming.  That is what set Sandra Bland off, and she was right. And for God's sake legalize drugs and prostitution.  We do those things and I firmly believe the disparity gap closes dramatically.

Ho.lee.crap -  we agree on something!!! 

 

[GoBirds]

Should we be racist to make up for racial injustice?    How is it possible to think like that?

Weirdly, some do.  

 

[ekbeats]

Ho.lee.crap -  we agree on something!!! 

It had to happen eventually, right?  FWIW, I think a lot of Conservatives agree with this as well.

 

[sho nuff]

I think people would like black and white and any other race to be treated the same by the Justice system.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think people would like black and white and any other race to be treated the same by the Justice system.

Correct, but in the sense that we bring the black experience with the criminal system to the white level, not the other way around like the OP was suggesting that some people seemed to feel.  

 

[ekbeats]

I think there's systemic racism and inherent bias in the criminal justice system against people of color.  There's absolutely class division in determination of outcomes, but socioeconomic status alone is unlikely to explain all of the discrepancy in outcomes. 

First off, I appreciate your perspective on this, and I respect it.  And I agree there are imbalances in the criminal justice system.  But I think you and I may diverge on the reasons behind it.  Personally, I don't believe that there is a negative motive behind this disparity.  I think it's the result of bad public policy that had a disparate impact on blacks.  But hey - I respect other opinions on this and am always interested in learning more about why they feel that way.

 

[ekbeats]

Maybe, not so sure about the legal hookers and drugs though.   

Yeah but once they get a taste of it they'll come around,.

 

[Caveman33]

Can you point me to such a study?

Have you seen any in academic journals?

The Relationship between Race, Ethnicity, and Sentencing Outcomes: A Meta-Analysis of Sentencing Research

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf

Here is a meta-study from 2004 that I believe is often used to support the claim of biased sentencing.  One of the authors, Ojmarrah Mitchell, more recently authored an academic paper on "Tokenism in Criminology and Criminal Justice Departments: Problems and Solutions"  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2153368720976764

From page 46 of the meta-study: 

All of the extant reviews are non-comprehensive as they focus on published studies—opening the door for publication bias to creep into these reviews.2 Researchers in other areas of study have repeatedly demonstrated that published studies are a biased subset of an area of research, as published studies are more likely to find statistically significant results than unpublished research (Greenwald 1975; Lipsey and Wilson 1993; Smith 1980). Thus, existing reviews run a substantial risk of biasing their results by focusing only on published research. A more judicious approach would be to include all available research meeting explicit eligibility criteria, regardless of publication status.

If you look at their forest plots towards the end of the study, you will find that every group: black, latino, native, and asian were found to have received roughly proportionately equal harsh sentencing when compared to white.  I have never heard or read about asians complaining of this injustice.  Does the problem exist, or did it exist in these studies from 1970s-2000s?  Maybe.  But that excerpt from page 46 perfectly explains why skepticism is reasonable.

 

[Insein]

Maybe, not so sure about the legal hookers and drugs though.   

No you will definitely not get the older generation to go along with those on both sides. 

 

[jon_mx]

A lot of people are arguing "If Rittenhouse were black..."  "A black guy would never walk in this situation."  "You know if he were black they wouldn't even have a trial."

I think a lot of people in this country, myself included, believes the criminal justice system is unfair to black Americans.  By arguing the above--it seems to be that people are suggesting that it's ok--and we just need to treat white People unfairly to even it out.  Is that the case?

Or should the standard of "If he were black he'd be treated unfairly" not be thrown out like this?  Should we maybe focus on criminal justice reform and racial disparities--not simply hoping the white kid gets life in prison "because you know a black kid would"

If he were black, he would have never been prosecuted and Gaige Grosskreutz would be in prison for attempted murder with additional sentencing piled on because it was a hate crime.  We all know that is true, and I would 100 percent support that except the hate crimes par which I view as a racist policy which undermines equality under the law.  Regardless of race, Gaige Grosskreutz deserves to be charged with attempted murder. 

 

[Coach Morris Buttermaker]

Yesterday, a black kid used self-defense and was found not guilty

https://www.wpbf.com/article/andrew-coffee-not-guilty-on-all-counts/38304640

 

[Kal El]

Personally, I think this would be a bad idea. We can’t change what has happened in the past, but we can change the future. To that end, I’d suggest maybe some type of baseline punishment system that applies to everyone(for example, someone caught stealing gets a month in jail, counseling, and community service when they get out) but most of the focus should be on actual rehabilitation of offenders, especially with less serious offenses.

 

[massraider]

Join me for tomorrow's post:

Should White People who Rap Along to Songs and Use the N Word go to Jail to Make Black People Feel Better? 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

A lot of people are arguing "If Rittenhouse were black..."  "A black guy would never walk in this situation."  "You know if he were black they wouldn't even have a trial."

The answer to this, of course, is that black people should be treated like white people are treated, not the other way around.

People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black are probably right IMO, and they're fine in my book.  People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black and who argue that Rittenhouse should have been convicted are a huge part of our national problem -- we should be making the criminal justice system less punitive and less carceral, not making it worse.

 

[jon_mx]

The answer to this, of course, is that black people should be treated like white people are treated, not the other way around.

People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black are probably right IMO, and they're fine in my book.  People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black and who argue that Rittenhouse should have been convicted are a huge part of our national problem -- we should be making the criminal justice system less punitive and less carceral, not making it worse.

30 or 40 years ago you would have been correct.  In today's political environment, the black person is provided the benefit of the doubt while the white person is presumed guilty.  Not everywhere as we saw initially in the Arbery case, but most locations. 

Kyle's actions of that day do not point to someone who was trigger-happy and went there to shoot people.  But that was the basis of the prosecution, which is not the presumption of innocence.

But your first point is absolutely correct, the real answer is to respect the rights of all people and give all equal treatment under the law.  

 

[The Z Machine]

Lol at, "30 or 40 years ago you would have been correct.  In today's political environment, the black person is provided the benefit of the doubt while the white person is presumed guilty."

This is patently ludicrous. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Lol at, "30 or 40 years ago you would have been correct.  In today's political environment, the black person is provided the benefit of the doubt while the white person is presumed guilty."

This is patently ludicrous. 

I disagree.  Had Kyle Rittenhouse been black it never even would have went to trial.  If THAT were the case, the headlines would have been, "Peaceful protestor defends himself and others from violent thugs and criminals."

If you think this whole forced diversity, victim-hood mentality hasn't produced results, you are out of your mind.

 

[The Commish]

We need to have a nonpartisan study commissioned to study when and where racial imbalances exist within the Justice system, and then have done intelligent discussions about how we should deal with that data.  The fact we can’t do that in this country in 2021is pretty sad.

Cant we just look at the fact that there are many minority groups in this country where only 1 maybe 2 generations were born into a country where they were equal to everyone else under the law?

 

[ekbeats]

Cant we just look at the fact that there are many minority groups in this country where only 1 maybe 2 generations were born into a country where they were equal to everyone else under the law?

I don’t think so.  I want to understand where and why there are still racial disparities. 

 

[ekbeats]

The answer to this, of course, is that black people should be treated like white people are treated, not the other way around.

People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black are probably right IMO, and they're fine in my book.  People who make the point that Rittenhouse would not be treated this way if he were black and who argue that Rittenhouse should have been convicted are a huge part of our national problem -- we should be making the criminal justice system less punitive and less carceral, not making it worse.

I don’t agree with that.  I think the vast majority of white Americans are fair minded.  Maybe I’m naive on this, but I honestly have only met a couple of white people in my life who clearly disliked black people to the point where it would cloud their judgment.  In short, I’m not a believer in overt racism by whites.  I’m not.  I just haven’t seen it in my life, and I like to think I’m pretty well connected with varied demographics.  I could be wrong though - I acknowledge that.

 

[The Commish]

I don’t think so.  I want to understand where and why there are still racial disparities. 

The one i pointed out is the first and probably the biggest 

ETA:  let me be clearer. What i pointed out is the "why"  

The where would include the financial sector, education,  and housing. Those are the top three in my view. 

 

[Snotbubbles]

I don’t think so.  I want to understand where and why there are still racial disparities. 

Well you have socioeconomic issues. 

Then you have issues with the Biden Crime Bill.  He authored penalties harsher for acts typically associated with minorities (for example the 18:1 disparity between cocaine and crack offenses).  Mandatory minimums.  

Then you have racial biases from people working in the justice system.  

I'm sure there are other factors.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well you have socioeconomic issues. 

Then you have issues with the Biden Crime Bill.  He authored penalties harsher for acts typically associated with minorities (for example the 18:1 disparity between cocaine and crack offenses).  Mandatory minimums.  

Then you have racial biases from people working in the justice system.  

I'm sure there are other factors.

I think the criminal justice system is one of the biggest.   Everything from odds of being stopped, duration of sentencing, and things you listed - crack vs. cocaine.   So many things branch out from that as well - ability to get employment, lack of parent in house/effect on kids, etc..  

As discussed in other threads, quite a bit could be addressed through the lens of "poor" vs. race b/c of the higher % of minorities being in poverty too.   IMO the criminal justice system is one to point to that still has elements of race in their with the sentencing and crack/power cocaine differences.  

 

[ekbeats]

Then you have racial biases from people working in the justice system.  

Do you believe that there are a significant number of white in the justice system that have racial animus towards blacks?

 

[ekbeats]

I think the criminal justice system is one of the biggest.   Everything from odds of being stopped, duration of sentencing, and things you listed - crack vs. cocaine.   So many things branch out from that as well - ability to get employment, lack of parent in house/effect on kids, etc..  

As discussed in other threads, quite a bit could be addressed through the lens of "poor" vs. race b/c of the higher % of minorities being in poverty too.   IMO the criminal justice system is one to point to that still has elements of race in their with the sentencing and crack/power cocaine differences.  

Same question to you - Do you believe that there are a significant number of white in the justice system that have racial animus towards blacks?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Do you believe that there are a significant number of white in the justice system that have racial animus towards blacks?

You didn't ask me, but I would say no.    But there are still policies where the consequences intended or not statistically significantly effect blacks more - ie the one he brought up about crack and mandatory minimum sentences.    I think there are some areas were policing is focused more on blacks as well - stop and frisk, traffic stops, whatever.   

Like I said, I would guess a fair bit might be traced to income.   In other threads we have talked and admitted most of us agree there is a difference between the haves and the have nots - ability to afford bail, decent representation, etc..     IF we looked at income levels would that explain some of the differences in sentences and convictions?   Knowing that a larger portion of blacks are in poverty, would that explain a fair bit of that?   

 

[KarmaPolice]

Same question to you - Do you believe that there are a significant number of white in the justice system that have racial animus towards blacks?

Lol didn't see this, but answered anyway.     Racial injustice and discrepancies <> significant number of racist white people in the justice system, and I tried my best to explain my thinking.  

 

[ekbeats]

Lol didn't see this, but answered anyway.     Racial injustice and discrepancies <> significant number of racist white people in the justice system, and I tried my best to explain my thinking.  

I think you and I agree a lot here.  Where I think we disagree is the Left's handling of the racism topic the last 10-15 years.  I don't agree with the school of thought that color should be seen first.  This is a slap in the face to Martin Luther King and the exact opposite of what we should be doing.  You don't solve racism with racism.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think you and I agree a lot here.  Where I think we disagree is the Left's handling of the racism topic the last 10-15 years.  I don't agree with the school of thought that color should be seen first.  This is a slap in the face to Martin Luther King and the exact opposite of what we should be doing.  You don't solve racism with racism.

GTFO - that's 3x!! (I will stop now...) 

Honestly where I have trouble is in the fixing the problem if we think it should be addressed, and in some cases how do we do that without making it a race thing.  And I have been more on the end of trying to identifying and removing barriers vs. trying to force in race to achieve a # or stat (I hope that makes sense).  

An example that comes to mind was a podcast I talked about listening to was about how diversity programs were failing in corporations.  In that there was discussion about how few blacks there were in leadership positions at companies they went to.   Now the solution wasn't to make the company give X% of blacks a promotion to make the number look better.  What they did was analyze how they did the employee evals, the wording used, etc..   Removing barriers that way and it lead to a natural rise in the numbers.   

 

[stlrams]

GTFO - that's 3x!! (I will stop now...) 

Honestly where I have trouble is in the fixing the problem if we think it should be addressed, and in some cases how do we do that without making it a race thing.  And I have been more on the end of trying to identifying and removing barriers vs. trying to force in race to achieve a # or stat (I hope that makes sense).  

An example that comes to mind was a podcast I talked about listening to was about how diversity programs were failing in corporations.  In that there was discussion about how few blacks there were in leadership positions at companies they went to.   Now the solution wasn't to make the company give X% of blacks a promotion to make the number look better.  What they did was analyze how they did the employee evals, the wording used, etc..   Removing barriers that way and it lead to a natural rise in the numbers.   

WhAt is the percentage of blacks in leadership positions?