Shutdown corners - Who are the league's best? (1 Viewer)

[Wheelhouse]

We all know about the stud WR's, but who are the real shutdown corners that game in and game out neutralize, even the best wide receivers? This would be a great article topic for the stat-minded staff members who routinely break out their spreadsheets and calculators and come up with some of the best numbers-driven articles on the site.

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the names on that list. From a yardage allowed and receptions allowed standpoint, who are the best corners? In other words, who are the corners that you don't want to see line up against, even your best receivers on fantasy gameday?

Maybe we can categorize by the best in each conference, each division, each team then determine the best in the NFL. Who do you think is worthy of this distinction?

 

[cobalt_27]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

 

[Penguin]

We all know about the stud WR's, but who are the real shut down corners that game in and game out neutralize, even the best wide receivers? This would be a great article topic for the stat-minded staff members who routinely break out their spreadsheets and calculators and come up with some of the best numbers-driven articles on the site.

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the names on that list. From a yardage allowed and receptions allowed standpoint, who are the best corners? In other words, who are the corners that you don't want to see line up against, even your best receivers on fantasy gameday?

Maybe we can categorize by the best in each conference, each division, each team then determine the best in the NFL. Who do you think is worthy of this distinction?

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

 

[duaneok66]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

 

[RudeDog]

We all know about the stud WR's, but who are the real shut down corners that game in and game out neutralize, even the best wide receivers? This would be a great article topic for the stat-minded staff members who routinely break out their spreadsheets and calculators and come up with some of the best numbers-driven articles on the site.

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the names on that list. From a yardage allowed and receptions allowed standpoint, who are the best corners? In other words, who are the corners that you don't want to see line up against, even your best receivers on fantasy gameday?

Maybe we can categorize by the best in each conference, each division, each team then determine the best in the NFL. Who do you think is worthy of this distinction?

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

Tough question......have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

 

[BLOX]

Al Harris and Charles Woodson come to mind here.

I'm sure people will talk about the big plays given up last season, but those were due to the safeties (notably Manuel and Culver) being out of position and not picking up players during defensive shifts.

Edit to add:

More along the lines of what the OP was asking, Harris usually gets the #1 WR and has done a very good job of shutting them down. Usually the receiver that scores vs the Packers will be the Berrians or Bookers of most teams.

 

[SSOG]

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

Yards per attempt allowed is the stat to use. Or "Success rate against" (meaning how often a WR gets 40% of the necessary yardage on 1st down, 60% on 2nd down, or 100% on 3rd or 4th down).

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Do you honestly not consider Champ Bailey a "shutdown" CB?

Tough question......have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

DeAngelo is drastically overrated. He's just really, really fast, and he talks about himself a lot, so people think he's better than he really is.

Edit to add:More along the lines of what the OP was asking, Harris usually gets the #1 WR and has done a very good job of shutting them down. Usually the receiver that scores vs the Packers will be the Berrians or Bookers of most teams.

A couple of years ago I would have agreed 100% with Harris, but recently he's been very-good-but-not-quite-great. According to Football Outsiders, Green Bay was #12 against opposing top WRs, #3 against opposing second WRs, and 8th against third, fourth, and fifth WRs... so GB was actually getting burned more by top WRs than the Berrians or Bookers of the world.It's hard to say who's responsible for what, but the teams that were best defending the top 2 WRs, according to Football Outsiders, were Denver (#1 against opposing #1s, #7 against #2s), Jacksonville (#8 vs. #1s, #1 vs. #2s), and NYG (#10 against both #1s and #2s). This suggests that Champ Bailey is a stud, Rashean Mathis is dramatically underrated, and NYG is surprisingly good (perhaps Strahan and Osi have something to do with that).Also worth noting that, according to a game-charting project from a couple years ago, no team matched its #1 CB against the opposing #1 WR more than Detroit did with Bly. If that's the case, Bly is still pretty great, since Detroit was #7 against opposing #1s and #32 against opposing #2s, #31 against all other WRs, and #29 against TEs. And next year, Bly will be covering worse WRs. Denver's CBs are going to be really sick.

 

[-OZ-]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Do you honestly not consider Champ Bailey a "shutdown" CB?

Honestly, no. He's good, damn good, probably the closest to the label today, but I still see QBs throwing his way, WRs catching the ball, and I'll never forget Champ falling down covering Jerry Porter. (yeah, I know one play... LT probably fumbled once too)

Tough question......have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

DeAngelo is drastically overrated. He's just really, really fast, and he talks about himself a lot, so people think he's better than he really is.

Agreed, although his speed compensates for his mistakes.

 

[ImTheScientist]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

 

[The Moz]

Deion and ROD Woodson were shutdown corners in the 90s - been a few really nice CBs but really none to the level of Deion and ROD

 

[Prodigal19]

Champ Bailey is really the only corner back that could be considered a shutdown CB today.

Of course this is only taking in account the past 2 years. If you count his entire career then I guess champ wouldn't be a shutdown CB either.

 

[Iceman56751]

I think the young kid from Oakland is a HUGE talent at corner.

Not shut down, but could be in a few years.

 

[cobalt_27]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

Unpack that one a little bit.Do you have a long laundry list of Shutdown Corners?

 

[Cookiemonster]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

Unpack that one a little bit.Do you have a long laundry list of Shutdown Corners?

C'mon. These forums are for debate. 1st of all, don't get defensive if someone disagrees w/ you. 2nd, if you are going to disagree, provide something else besides your opinion. Stats seem to be the preferred method here (not my favorite) but even an account of your perceptions are cool. I come into threads like this looking for some info, only to find snippits like "We can't have this discussion because 'shut down corner' is a fictitious term." Good lord, are we writing a dictionary or discussing football? Does everything have to be so literal? overAs far as Asomugha (insert bashing for spelling), he's developed into a decent corner, but should have been a safety - or more appropriately - stayed at safety. He has improved much the last couple years, but is nearing his peak and last year benefited from some deflections and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I don't expect those kind of stats in the future. Bly + Champ is just a nasty combo, but for most teams that have one really good corner, offenses are doing everything to get their #1 WRs away from the D's #1 CBs. How many #1 CBs get to man up vs. a #1 WR all day. IMO, stats can be thrown out the window on this one. I like a low # of tackles, indicating that his man didn't catch many balls, but if he has a lot, maybe he's just good in run support. There is really no way of knowing w/o getting the 22 man camera, and knowing or being able to determine the coverage called. Maybe the more telling argument to have would be which D coordinators rank tougher vs #1 or #2 WRs throughout their careers.

 

[Wheelhouse]

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

Yards per attempt allowed is the stat to use. Or "Success rate against" (meaning how often a WR gets 40% of the necessary yardage on 1st down, 60% on 2nd down, or 100% on 3rd or 4th down).

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Do you honestly not consider Champ Bailey a "shutdown" CB?

Tough question......

have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

DeAngelo is drastically overrated. He's just really, really fast, and he talks about himself a lot, so people think he's better than he really is.

Edit to add:

More along the lines of what the OP was asking, Harris usually gets the #1 WR and has done a very good job of shutting them down. Usually the receiver that scores vs the Packers will be the Berrians or Bookers of most teams.

A couple of years ago I would have agreed 100% with Harris, but recently he's been very-good-but-not-quite-great. According to Football Outsiders, Green Bay was #12 against opposing top WRs, #3 against opposing second WRs, and 8th against third, fourth, and fifth WRs... so GB was actually getting burned more by top WRs than the Berrians or Bookers of the world.It's hard to say who's responsible for what, but the teams that were best defending the top 2 WRs, according to Football Outsiders, were Denver (#1 against opposing #1s, #7 against #2s), Jacksonville (#8 vs. #1s, #1 vs. #2s), and NYG (#10 against both #1s and #2s). This suggests that Champ Bailey is a stud, Rashean Mathis is dramatically underrated, and NYG is surprisingly good (perhaps Strahan and Osi have something to do with that).

Also worth noting that, according to a game-charting project from a couple years ago, no team matched its #1 CB against the opposing #1 WR more than Detroit did with Bly. If that's the case, Bly is still pretty great, since Detroit was #7 against opposing #1s and #32 against opposing #2s, #31 against all other WRs, and #29 against TEs. And next year, Bly will be covering worse WRs. Denver's CBs are going to be really sick.

I think this is an outstanding post SSOG. Then again, a lot of your posts/replies are very results oriented and I know I'm not the only one that appreciates them. I'd like to see a further breakdown of what you posted here. Do you have a link to your findings or can you post more of the same regarding those numbers you uncovered? Thanks.

 

[LHUCKS]

Chris McCallister

Pac10 = Conference of Champions, UofA Represent

 

[SproutDaddy]

We all know about the stud WR's, but who are the real shut down corners that game in and game out neutralize, even the best wide receivers? This would be a great article topic for the stat-minded staff members who routinely break out their spreadsheets and calculators and come up with some of the best numbers-driven articles on the site.

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the names on that list. From a yardage allowed and receptions allowed standpoint, who are the best corners? In other words, who are the corners that you don't want to see line up against, even your best receivers on fantasy gameday?

Maybe we can categorize by the best in each conference, each division, each team then determine the best in the NFL. Who do you think is worthy of this distinction?

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

Tough question......have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

Hall is far from a shutdown anything. I've seen him get burnt quite a bit.

 

[-OZ-]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

Unpack that one a little bit.Do you have a long laundry list of Shutdown Corners?

C'mon. These forums are for debate. 1st of all, don't get defensive if someone disagrees w/ you. 2nd, if you are going to disagree, provide something else besides your opinion. Stats seem to be the preferred method here (not my favorite) but even an account of your perceptions are cool. I come into threads like this looking for some info, only to find snippits like "We can't have this discussion because 'shut down corner' is a fictitious term." Good lord, are we writing a dictionary or discussing football? Does everything have to be so literal? overAs far as Asomugha (insert bashing for spelling), he's developed into a decent corner, but should have been a safety - or more appropriately - stayed at safety. He has improved much the last couple years, but is nearing his peak and last year benefited from some deflections and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I don't expect those kind of stats in the future. Bly + Champ is just a nasty combo, but for most teams that have one really good corner, offenses are doing everything to get their #1 WRs away from the D's #1 CBs. How many #1 CBs get to man up vs. a #1 WR all day. IMO, stats can be thrown out the window on this one. I like a low # of tackles, indicating that his man didn't catch many balls, but if he has a lot, maybe he's just good in run support. There is really no way of knowing w/o getting the 22 man camera, and knowing or being able to determine the coverage called. Maybe the more telling argument to have would be which D coordinators rank tougher vs #1 or #2 WRs throughout their careers.

Statistically, Champ does not look like a shutdown corner. He has most tackles than almost any CB except Ronde Barber. But as you said, there's more to it.

 

[Sweet Love]

ESPN's FF mag has an article about this and an analysis based on the Yards Per Attempt on each CB in the NFL with at least 32 attempts (article/analysis by KC Joyner). It is pretty interesting and he provides a listing of the top 20 CBs based on YPA for the 2007 season. It is an interesting list, but one thing I think it is lacking is the strength of the WRs that each CB faced. For example, did they face Torry Holt two times in 2007 or Justin McCairens. Here are the top 10 listings in order. It also does not differentiate if a specific corner tends to draw a team's WR2 each week. This list certainly does not mean who is a "shutdown" corner, but may give a good idea of who to avoid in your weekly matchups:

IN ORDER:

Champ Bailey, Den

Jason Craft, NO

Stanley Wilson, DET

Hank Poteat, NYJ

Ken Lucas, CAR

Nick Harper, TEN

Charles Woodson, OAK

Pacman Jones, Ten

R.W. McQuarters, NYG

Lewis Sanders, ATL

 

[Jene Bramel]

ESPN's FF mag has an article about this and an analysis based on the Yards Per Attempt on each CB in the NFL with at least 32 attempts (article/analysis by KC Joyner). It is pretty interesting and he provides a listing of the top 20 CBs based on YPA for the 2007 season. It is an interesting list, but one thing I think it is lacking is the strength of the WRs that each CB faced. For example, did they face Torry Holt two times in 2007 or Justin McCairens. Here are the top 10 listings in order. It also does not differentiate if a specific corner tends to draw a team's WR2 each week. This list certainly does not mean who is a "shutdown" corner, but may give a good idea of who to avoid in your weekly matchups:IN ORDER:Champ Bailey, DenJason Craft, NOStanley Wilson, DETHank Poteat, NYJKen Lucas, CARNick Harper, TENCharles Woodson, OAKPacman Jones, TenR.W. McQuarters, NYGLewis Sanders, ATL

Herein lies the issue. Unless there's some discussion of sample size or coverage used, these numbers can be very misleading. Bailey's a no-brainer. Craft and Wilson were part-time nickel backs for most of the season. One (Wilson) has potential, the other (Craft) is probably below replacement level. Their numbers derive from being matched up against slot receivers who aren't generally running long patterns. Poteat's numbers are tough to evaluate because he didn't play much until the end of the year. Lucas was generally considered to have taken significant steps back last year due to injury and confidence level. Harper played well but may have his numbers skewed by the Cover-2. Jones was legit. Woodson had a good year as did McQuarters, but neither should be considered better corners than many not on this list.I appreciate the analysis of FO and Joyner but there are just too many variables that cannot be controlled for given the relatively small sample sizes. It's nice when the numbers match the on-field play, but the outliers are so numerous (good and bad) that the metrics have to be qualified to such a large extent as to make them difficult to use.

 

[cobalt_27]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

Unpack that one a little bit.Do you have a long laundry list of Shutdown Corners?

C'mon. These forums are for debate. 1st of all, don't get defensive if someone disagrees w/ you. 2nd, if you are going to disagree, provide something else besides your opinion. Stats seem to be the preferred method here (not my favorite) but even an account of your perceptions are cool. I come into threads like this looking for some info, only to find snippits like "We can't have this discussion because 'shut down corner' is a fictitious term." Good lord, are we writing a dictionary or discussing football? Does everything have to be so literal? overAs far as Asomugha (insert bashing for spelling), he's developed into a decent corner, but should have been a safety - or more appropriately - stayed at safety. He has improved much the last couple years, but is nearing his peak and last year benefited from some deflections and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I don't expect those kind of stats in the future. Bly + Champ is just a nasty combo, but for most teams that have one really good corner, offenses are doing everything to get their #1 WRs away from the D's #1 CBs. How many #1 CBs get to man up vs. a #1 WR all day. IMO, stats can be thrown out the window on this one. I like a low # of tackles, indicating that his man didn't catch many balls, but if he has a lot, maybe he's just good in run support. There is really no way of knowing w/o getting the 22 man camera, and knowing or being able to determine the coverage called. Maybe the more telling argument to have would be which D coordinators rank tougher vs #1 or #2 WRs throughout their careers.

Whoa there, skippy. I wasn't getting defensive at all. I might have been sarcastic, but definitely not defensive. You missed the point, I guess. Part of the debate is not who is a shutdown corner, as Wheelhouse seems to imply, but if there is even one in the first place. Unless you don't think it's appropriate to debate whether one exists or not, it is clearly a valid position to argue that there isn't one right now. I think statistics work less effectively when rating CBs than how we typically assess offensive positions for reasons already described by earlier posts. But, I'd be happy to hear anything in favor of slapping that label on a guy or two that are playing right now, fwiw.

So, I really don't know what your problem is, except to conclude that you want to debate this imaginary concept as it applies to today's cornerbacks. Go right ahead with that fun...I reject the question on its premise. Bailey's the best, but he's not shutdown material.

 

[SSOG]

I think this is an outstanding post SSOG. Then again, a lot of your posts/replies are very results oriented and I know I'm not the only one that appreciates them. I'd like to see a further breakdown of what you posted here. Do you have a link to your findings or can you post more of the same regarding those numbers you uncovered? Thanks.

All data comes from Football Outsiders- for my money, they're the best stat guys on the net. Obviously using stats to evaluate players has all sorts of problems (the FO editors are fond of saying that if Player X finishes #1, that doesn't mean he's the best, it means that Player X, getting the ball from QB X, who is being blocked for by Offensive Line X, while playing in the scheme of Offense X, is the best in the NFL). With that said, the really nice thing about their stats is that they're based off of pure success. A CB could give up 8 yards all day long on 3rd and 10 and he'd be considered one of the best, because every time the offense throws his way, they wind up punting. The only thing that matters is how much (or how little) a play does to result in points being put on the board. They also adjust all of their results based on the opposition (so shutting down Marvin Harrison counts way more heavily than shutting down Brandon Lloyd).Anyway, at the bottom of their Team Defense page is a breakdown of how every defense does vs. specific receivers. Again, use caution when just taking these numbers as gospel, because there's all sorts of noise in the system. For instance, New York's pass defense looks great, but a lot of that has to do with having one of the best DE tandems in the league. Also, remember that most CBs (even the legendary Champ Bailey) don't always get matched up with the corresponding WR- when evaluating #1 CBs, I like to look at how a team did against #1s *AND* #2s, since very rarely will you get a top CB matched up against a #3 WR or an RB (although Champ plays against the TE sometime, which adds some noise, as far as I can tell he's the only one who has done that with any regularity).

Anyway, for the most part, the stats make sense with what he intuitively know. There are only 8 teams that were in the top 50% of the league against both #1s and #2s: Baltimore, Jacksonville, Green Bay, Denver, Philadelphia, NYG, Dallas, and San Fran. For the most part, this makes sense, since a lot of those teams are really well known for stellar CB play (Balt, Jax, GB, Den, Philly, and Dal). The two puzzling presences on the list are NYG and San Fran, and NYG is simple enough to explain. I have no idea what the deal was with San Fran. Some people might see their presence and say that it invalidates the entire list, but personally, I just think that sometimes, weird stuff happens.

Looking at the teams that were in the top 10 against one receiver and the bottom 10 against another, you have Detroit (7th, 32nd), Oakland (2nd, 24th), Buf (3rd, 27th), New England (6th, 29th), Kansas City (4th, 25th), Cincy (24th, 9th), and Houston (26th, 8th). Five of the 7 were top-10 against #1s and bottom-10 against #2s... and four of those five were known as teams with stellar top CBs and nothing behind them (Bly, Asomugha, Clements, Samuels), while KC is the oddball on the list (possibly an indication that Law is underrated, or that Surtain is still better than we think? I don't know, I didn't pay attention enough to KC's defense to see who usually handled which coverage responsibilities). I don't really know how to explain Cincinnati or Houston, I'd have to think about that a bit more. My initial guess is that it's something of a statistical fluke resulting from the CBs catching more INTs against the #2 WR than the #1 WR, but maybe someone who's a bigger fan of those teams can help.

Like I said, I'd really just recommend poking around a lot and looking for anything that looks interesting or like an aberration. A lot of people really disparage stats and say that they're no replacement for using your own eyes. I really agree that nothing beats actually watching for yourself, but statistics can do a wonderful job of picking up on trends far before you would, as well as focusing your attention on the stuff that you should really be paying attention to. For instance, absurd statistics are what got me paying attention to Lee Evans and MJD in the first place, and I certainly haven't regretted that yet.

 

[Cookiemonster]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

:watchestoomuchESPN:

Unpack that one a little bit.Do you have a long laundry list of Shutdown Corners?

C'mon. These forums are for debate. 1st of all, don't get defensive if someone disagrees w/ you. 2nd, if you are going to disagree, provide something else besides your opinion. Stats seem to be the preferred method here (not my favorite) but even an account of your perceptions are cool. I come into threads like this looking for some info, only to find snippits like "We can't have this discussion because 'shut down corner' is a fictitious term." Good lord, are we writing a dictionary or discussing football? Does everything have to be so literal? overAs far as Asomugha (insert bashing for spelling), he's developed into a decent corner, but should have been a safety - or more appropriately - stayed at safety. He has improved much the last couple years, but is nearing his peak and last year benefited from some deflections and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I don't expect those kind of stats in the future. Bly + Champ is just a nasty combo, but for most teams that have one really good corner, offenses are doing everything to get their #1 WRs away from the D's #1 CBs. How many #1 CBs get to man up vs. a #1 WR all day. IMO, stats can be thrown out the window on this one. I like a low # of tackles, indicating that his man didn't catch many balls, but if he has a lot, maybe he's just good in run support. There is really no way of knowing w/o getting the 22 man camera, and knowing or being able to determine the coverage called. Maybe the more telling argument to have would be which D coordinators rank tougher vs #1 or #2 WRs throughout their careers.

Whoa there, skippy. I wasn't getting defensive at all. I might have been sarcastic, but definitely not defensive. You missed the point, I guess. Part of the debate is not who is a shutdown corner, as Wheelhouse seems to imply, but if there is even one in the first place. Unless you don't think it's appropriate to debate whether one exists or not, it is clearly a valid position to argue that there isn't one right now. I think statistics work less effectively when rating CBs than how we typically assess offensive positions for reasons already described by earlier posts. But, I'd be happy to hear anything in favor of slapping that label on a guy or two that are playing right now, fwiw.

So, I really don't know what your problem is, except to conclude that you want to debate this imaginary concept as it applies to today's cornerbacks. Go right ahead with that fun...I reject the question on its premise. Bailey's the best, but he's not shutdown material.

No problem, sport. I guess I get a little bunjed up about people who take terms like "shutdown corner" too literally. Every corner will allow some completions in his career. So, sure. There is no such thing. My ##### was that we don't need to a thread 'cause it's too difficult to make a fair assumption about what someone means. I don't live quite that black and white, and I don't call people "skippy."

 

[Jules Winnfield]

We all know about the stud WR's, but who are the real shut down corners that game in and game out neutralize, even the best wide receivers? This would be a great article topic for the stat-minded staff members who routinely break out their spreadsheets and calculators and come up with some of the best numbers-driven articles on the site.

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the names on that list. From a yardage allowed and receptions allowed standpoint, who are the best corners? In other words, who are the corners that you don't want to see line up against, even your best receivers on fantasy gameday?

Maybe we can categorize by the best in each conference, each division, each team then determine the best in the NFL. Who do you think is worthy of this distinction?

I think that you'd need to incorporate targets into the mix as well. I'd like to see what corners had the lowest receptions to targets ratio

Tough question......have to throw DeAngelo Hall into the conversation I would think. Looking at his tackle numbers, they are low. I can only infer that this is due to the fact that teams do not throw to his side.

Hall is far from a shutdown anything. I've seen him get burnt quite a bit.

Many a times he was burned

 

[SSOG]

Hall is far from a shutdown anything. I've seen him get burnt quite a bit.

Many a times he was burned

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Hall in my last post about Football Outsiders. They have Atlanta ranked as #31 against opposing #1s... and #31 against opposing #2s. With results like that, it's hard to find much in way of a ray of sunshine.

 

[pinda]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Do you honestly not consider Champ Bailey a "shutdown" CB?

Honestly, no. He's good, damn good, probably the closest to the label today, but I still see QBs throwing his way, WRs catching the ball, and I'll never forget Champ falling down covering Jerry Porter. (yeah, I know one play... LT probably fumbled once too)

Please tell me you aren't referring to the snow game in Denver??? If you are referring to that game and judging Bailey on that game, considering the weather, then there's no point in discussing your post further.

 

[-OZ-]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Do you honestly not consider Champ Bailey a "shutdown" CB?

Honestly, no. He's good, damn good, probably the closest to the label today, but I still see QBs throwing his way, WRs catching the ball, and I'll never forget Champ falling down covering Jerry Porter. (yeah, I know one play... LT probably fumbled once too)

Please tell me you aren't referring to the snow game in Denver??? If you are referring to that game and judging Bailey on that game, considering the weather, then there's no point in discussing your post further.

Who said I was judging him based on that one play? It's just a mental image.

 

[Wheelhouse]

I think this is an outstanding post SSOG. Then again, a lot of your posts/replies are very results oriented and I know I'm not the only one that appreciates them. I'd like to see a further breakdown of what you posted here. Do you have a link to your findings or can you post more of the same regarding those numbers you uncovered? Thanks.

All data comes from Football Outsiders- for my money, they're the best stat guys on the net. Obviously using stats to evaluate players has all sorts of problems (the FO editors are fond of saying that if Player X finishes #1, that doesn't mean he's the best, it means that Player X, getting the ball from QB X, who is being blocked for by Offensive Line X, while playing in the scheme of Offense X, is the best in the NFL). With that said, the really nice thing about their stats is that they're based off of pure success. A CB could give up 8 yards all day long on 3rd and 10 and he'd be considered one of the best, because every time the offense throws his way, they wind up punting. The only thing that matters is how much (or how little) a play does to result in points being put on the board. They also adjust all of their results based on the opposition (so shutting down Marvin Harrison counts way more heavily than shutting down Brandon Lloyd).Anyway, at the bottom of their Team Defense page is a breakdown of how every defense does vs. specific receivers. Again, use caution when just taking these numbers as gospel, because there's all sorts of noise in the system. For instance, New York's pass defense looks great, but a lot of that has to do with having one of the best DE tandems in the league. Also, remember that most CBs (even the legendary Champ Bailey) don't always get matched up with the corresponding WR- when evaluating #1 CBs, I like to look at how a team did against #1s *AND* #2s, since very rarely will you get a top CB matched up against a #3 WR or an RB (although Champ plays against the TE sometime, which adds some noise, as far as I can tell he's the only one who has done that with any regularity).

Anyway, for the most part, the stats make sense with what he intuitively know. There are only 8 teams that were in the top 50% of the league against both #1s and #2s: Baltimore, Jacksonville, Green Bay, Denver, Philadelphia, NYG, Dallas, and San Fran. For the most part, this makes sense, since a lot of those teams are really well known for stellar CB play (Balt, Jax, GB, Den, Philly, and Dal). The two puzzling presences on the list are NYG and San Fran, and NYG is simple enough to explain. I have no idea what the deal was with San Fran. Some people might see their presence and say that it invalidates the entire list, but personally, I just think that sometimes, weird stuff happens.

Looking at the teams that were in the top 10 against one receiver and the bottom 10 against another, you have Detroit (7th, 32nd), Oakland (2nd, 24th), Buf (3rd, 27th), New England (6th, 29th), Kansas City (4th, 25th), Cincy (24th, 9th), and Houston (26th, 8th). Five of the 7 were top-10 against #1s and bottom-10 against #2s... and four of those five were known as teams with stellar top CBs and nothing behind them (Bly, Asomugha, Clements, Samuels), while KC is the oddball on the list (possibly an indication that Law is underrated, or that Surtain is still better than we think? I don't know, I didn't pay attention enough to KC's defense to see who usually handled which coverage responsibilities). I don't really know how to explain Cincinnati or Houston, I'd have to think about that a bit more. My initial guess is that it's something of a statistical fluke resulting from the CBs catching more INTs against the #2 WR than the #1 WR, but maybe someone who's a bigger fan of those teams can help.

Like I said, I'd really just recommend poking around a lot and looking for anything that looks interesting or like an aberration. A lot of people really disparage stats and say that they're no replacement for using your own eyes. I really agree that nothing beats actually watching for yourself, but statistics can do a wonderful job of picking up on trends far before you would, as well as focusing your attention on the stuff that you should really be paying attention to. For instance, absurd statistics are what got me paying attention to Lee Evans and MJD in the first place, and I certainly haven't regretted that yet.

That's some excellent info, SSOG. Thanks for following up my request.

 

[sholditch]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

 

[sholditch]

ESPN's FF mag has an article about this and an analysis based on the Yards Per Attempt on each CB in the NFL with at least 32 attempts (article/analysis by KC Joyner). It is pretty interesting and he provides a listing of the top 20 CBs based on YPA for the 2007 season. It is an interesting list, but one thing I think it is lacking is the strength of the WRs that each CB faced. For example, did they face Torry Holt two times in 2007 or Justin McCairens. Here are the top 10 listings in order. It also does not differentiate if a specific corner tends to draw a team's WR2 each week. This list certainly does not mean who is a "shutdown" corner, but may give a good idea of who to avoid in your weekly matchups:IN ORDER:Champ Bailey, DenJason Craft, NOStanley Wilson, DETHank Poteat, NYJKen Lucas, CARNick Harper, TENCharles Woodson, OAKPacman Jones, TenR.W. McQuarters, NYGLewis Sanders, ATL

Herein lies the issue. Unless there's some discussion of sample size or coverage used, these numbers can be very misleading. Bailey's a no-brainer. Craft and Wilson were part-time nickel backs for most of the season. One (Wilson) has potential, the other (Craft) is probably below replacement level. Their numbers derive from being matched up against slot receivers who aren't generally running long patterns. Poteat's numbers are tough to evaluate because he didn't play much until the end of the year. Lucas was generally considered to have taken significant steps back last year due to injury and confidence level. Harper played well but may have his numbers skewed by the Cover-2. Jones was legit. Woodson had a good year as did McQuarters, but neither should be considered better corners than many not on this list.I appreciate the analysis of FO and Joyner but there are just too many variables that cannot be controlled for given the relatively small sample sizes. It's nice when the numbers match the on-field play, but the outliers are so numerous (good and bad) that the metrics have to be qualified to such a large extent as to make them difficult to use.

Jene, I would very much like to hear your opinion as to whether there are truly any shutdown corners in the NFL today. Don't need any numbers or analysis, just your opinion.

 

[cobalt_27]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

This guy clearly gets it.

 

[Prodigal19]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

how does that mean that champ isnt't a shutdown corner? Becasue he makes tackles? Most of his tackles are in run support and not tackling his WR. Champ was thrown at less than any other #1 cb in the league.your argument makes no sense.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Jene, I would very much like to hear your opinion as to whether there are truly any shutdown corners in the NFL today. Don't need any numbers or analysis, just your opinion.

I'll give you both, .I guess it depends on your opinion of what shutdown means. If it means that a quarterback/team will absolutely not throw to that corner's side of the field unless they have to, then no there are no shutdown corners today. Of course, that definition limits the discussion to probably less than five corners all time.

If you define shutdown corner as a corner who is so successful in man and press coverage that he impacts an offensive gameplan or such that he wins a vast majority of snaps (fewer targets to his side, high success rate, low YPA allowed) -- which I think is probably a valid definition -- then there are a few guys that could be considered "shutdown" players in 2006. Note that this defintion will leave out some very nice zone and Cover-2 corners who aren't as good in man coverage (Barber, Harper, Tillman).

Some of this is based on the metrics that FO and Joyner put together (disclaimers noted in an earlier post), some based on the thoughts of receivers and coaches I've read in recent seasons, some based on my own observations (YMMV).

With that in mind...

Meet my definition of shutdown corner from 2006

Champ Bailey -- unquestionably the best all-around CB over the past two seasons

Adam Jones -- ridiculous talent gets lost in all the off-field crap

Should definitely be in the discussion

Terence Newman -- an argument could be made that he belongs with Bailey and Jones

Leigh Bodden -- most underrated corner in the league IMO

Dre Bly -- not quite in the same category as the top four on this list but close

Rashean Mathis -- JAX plays a fair amount of zone but he has quietly improved his man cover skills every year

Fit the bill at one time, but not last year IMO

Chris McAlister

Shawn Springs

Nate Clements

Al Harris

Will join my top tier with another good season

Nmandi Asomugha -- share the concerns noted above on him but teams were avoiding him late in the year

Johnathan Joseph -- seemingly around every ball; 20 passes defended playing in the nickel over 75% of the year is sick

Also, FWIW, tackle stats, if not understood in context, aren't much better than some of the advanced metrics discussed in determining corner skill. For example, Bailey continues to be one of the better run supporting corners in the league. His relatively higher tackle numbers derive from his run support and the Broncos more frequent use of two deep zone coverage than other teams. It's not because he was targeted more often than a "shutdown" corner should be targeted.

 

[rascal]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

:( Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

This guy clearly gets it.

Because Champ makes the most of the very limited number of balls thrown his direction, and actually helps a great deal in the run support (unlike Sanders who was a liability), he isn't a shut down CB?Wow...talk about some idiotic reasoning.And I guess all of the reports of QB's not passing his way at all, and when they do he intercepts it, doesn't count as shutting down one area of the field? Equally brilliant.

 

[Iceman56751]

A defensive back is also only as good as his pass rush.

So many variables, but right now Champ is the best corner in the league.

 

[SSOG]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

:X Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

The fact that Bailey is a viable IDP tells you that he's unlike Deion Sanders- I agree 100%. Unlike Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey is ready, willing, and able to tackle.Champ Bailey covers every bit as well as Deion Sanders. He's a valuable IDP because he's also one of the best CBs in the league in terms of run support. Watch Bailey's game against St. Louis last year. Coaches could take tape from his tackles on Steven Jackson and run a seminar on how to make textbook open-field tackles. Ditto that for the games against KC and San Diego. Three of the hardest RBs in the league to take down, and Champ Bailey uses perfect form to take them down 1-on-1 in the open field. Which is good, because Denver's heavy use of the cover-2 means that tackling is incredibly important from the CB position- they're often isolated on the outside, and if the RB gets past them, it's a big gain. Good thing Denver didn't have Deion "They don't pay me to tackle" Sanders around.Just because he's not a prima donna like Sanders doesn't mean he's not every bit as good in coverage, though. Bailey's season last year was better than any season that Sanders ever had, especially when you consider that Sanders never had to play against the current rules (or, at least, he never played against the rules as they are currently enforced).Also, if you don't think teams avoided Champ Bailey last year, rewatch the New England game. Tom Brady was very obviously making a point of not even looking in Bailey's direction. Bailey was either in Brady's head, or else the offensive gameplan was clearly "whatever you do, DO NOT THROW AT BAILEY". If you mean to tell me otherwise, you're sorely mistaken. Watch the Arizona game, too. Leinart made a point of saying during the week that they were absolutely not going to avoid Bailey. When gametime rolled around, Leinart only threw in Bailey's direction twice. Bailey, I might add, finished the game with two interceptions.

 

[LawFitz]

As far as Asomugha (insert bashing for spelling), he's developed into a decent corner, but should have been a safety - or more appropriately - stayed at safety. He has improved much the last couple years, but is nearing his peak and last year benefited from some deflections and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. I don't expect those kind of stats in the future. Bly + Champ is just a nasty combo, but for most teams that have one really good corner, offenses are doing everything to get their #1 WRs away from the D's #1 CBs. How many #1 CBs get to man up vs. a #1 WR all day. IMO, stats can be thrown out the window on this one. I like a low # of tackles, indicating that his man didn't catch many balls, but if he has a lot, maybe he's just good in run support. There is really no way of knowing w/o getting the 22 man camera, and knowing or being able to determine the coverage called. Maybe the more telling argument to have would be which D coordinators rank tougher vs #1 or #2 WRs throughout their careers.

It took him a few years, but I think NN has developed into a legit, complete CB. Yes he had issues with hip fluidity earlier in his career, but last year, he was as about shutdown as you get. His run support has always been solid given his background as a safety, but last year, his pass D also took a step forward. He has great speed and size and this past year he really seemed to mature from the standpoint of instincts and intelligence.I don't know why you think he's reached his ceiling. He's still really young and has gotten better ever year so far. I think he'll be ascending the CB ranks for the next 5 years as he enters his prime (barring injury of course).

 

[cobalt_27]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

This guy clearly gets it.

Because Champ makes the most of the very limited number of balls thrown his direction, and actually helps a great deal in the run support (unlike Sanders who was a liability), he isn't a shut down CB?Wow...talk about some idiotic reasoning.And I guess all of the reports of QB's not passing his way at all, and when they do he intercepts it, doesn't count as shutting down one area of the field? Equally brilliant.

You clearly don't get it.

 

[cobalt_27]

Not sure if this was linked, yet. It's from 2005, but a good assessment, nonetheless, of the non-shutdown-corner that is Champ Bailey.

 

[Prodigal19]

Not sure if this was linked, yet. It's from 2005, but a good assessment, nonetheless, of the non-shutdown-corner that is Champ Bailey.

wait, I thought we were talking about whether or not Champ is a shutdown CB now, not 3 years ago. Anybody that watches him knows that he is a much much better CB than he was back then.

 

[Borat]

Not sure if this was linked, yet. It's from 2005, but a good assessment, nonetheless, of the non-shutdown-corner that is Champ Bailey.

If you like Football Outsiders, their stats also sum it up nicely.

 

[SSOG]

Not sure if this was linked, yet. It's from 2005, but a good assessment, nonetheless, of the non-shutdown-corner that is Champ Bailey.

Cool. Welcome back to before the 2005 season, when Bill Cowher and Peyton Manning were both chokers who would never win the big one (with "big game" being defined as any game that Cowher/Manning lost), when Curtis Martin was ageless, Daunte Culpepper was clearly one of the best QBs in the league, Randy Moss was about to turn Oakland into an offensive juggernaut, Shaun Alexander was a soft whiner, and Muhsin Muhammad was an all-pro.Champ Bailey was not a shut-down CB after the 2004 season. He was one of the best CBs in the league, but he gambled, allowed a lot of big plays, and didn't get many interceptions. He's plenty overrated... provided you first pretend that the two most dominant seasons of his entire career (and one of the most dominant two-season stretches in league history) never happened. On the other hand, when Bailey goes from 40th in the league in YPA against to 1st in the league in YPA against while simultaneously maintaining his high stop rate and cranking his game-changing plays through the roof, perhaps our perception of him as a player should change just the tiniest little bit.

 

[LHUCKS]

It sounds like McCallister has fallen out of favor as one of the top cover DBs...has he slowed down some?

I watch every game and I honestly haven't noticed it.

 

[SSOG]

It sounds like McCallister has fallen out of favor as one of the top cover DBs...has he slowed down some? I watch every game and I honestly haven't noticed it.

I definitely think that McAllister is a top-5 CB (and the most consistent CB from year-to-year outside of Bailey and Ronde Barber), but he also benefits a lot from playing with some of the most talented defensive teammates in the league. It's a lot easier to defend WRs when you have Ed Reed backing you up and Pryce, Suggs, and co. preventing the QB from getting comfortable.

 

[Tubalcane]

Not sure if this was linked, yet. It's from 2005, but a good assessment, nonetheless, of the non-shutdown-corner that is Champ Bailey.

Cool. Welcome back to before the 2005 season, when Bill Cowher and Peyton Manning were both chokers who would never win the big one (with "big game" being defined as any game that Cowher/Manning lost), when Curtis Martin was ageless, Daunte Culpepper was clearly one of the best QBs in the league, Randy Moss was about to turn Oakland into an offensive juggernaut, Shaun Alexander was a soft whiner, and Muhsin Muhammad was an all-pro.Champ Bailey was not a shut-down CB after the 2004 season. He was one of the best CBs in the league, but he gambled, allowed a lot of big plays, and didn't get many interceptions. He's plenty overrated... provided you first pretend that the two most dominant seasons of his entire career (and one of the most dominant two-season stretches in league history) never happened. On the other hand, when Bailey goes from 40th in the league in YPA against to 1st in the league in YPA against while simultaneously maintaining his high stop rate and cranking his game-changing plays through the roof, perhaps our perception of him as a player should change just the tiniest little bit.

Nuff said

 

[Jene Bramel]

It sounds like McCallister has fallen out of favor as one of the top cover DBs...has he slowed down some? I watch every game and I honestly haven't noticed it.

Well, I'll grant that my sample size may be skewed by the fact that most of the games I've seen McAlister play in recent seasons have been against a very good Cincinnati offense. Still, a "shutdown" corner should play well against better competition. The combination of Chad Johnson (avg 7-94, 3 TD, 9 targets/gm) and TJ Houshmandzadeh (avg 7-111, 4 TD, 10 targets/gm) have done well against the Baltimore corners over the past three years. A fair amount of that has come against McAlister, who, outside of a 2006 matchup where he had an INT and three passes defended, had only one pass defended total in the other five matchups. He was beaten on deep routes and timing routes, and in the red zone.He had a great statistical year in 2006; however, he took advantage of a pretty cushy schedule (nine games against the league's worst 12 offenses and two others against a struggling Roethlisberger) and, as SSOG points out, also benefited from a healthy defensive unit that appeared to have finally caught on to Rex Ryan's complicated playbook. I also remember reading that the Ravens used more zone coverage in 2006 in recent seasons. That's also coloring my perception. Good player, just no longer "shutdown" material.I don't know what the 2006 numbers will show, but IIRC, the metrics SSOG has been using to support Bailey's subjective play weren't as favorable for McAllister in 2005. I believe he had a YPA of over 7.0, was being targeted about as often as Samari Rolle and didn't rank inside the top twenty in any major metric. Again, pretty good across the board, but nothing that would suggest he was the same player he was earlier in his career.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

It sounds like McCallister has fallen out of favor as one of the top cover DBs...has he slowed down some? I watch every game and I honestly haven't noticed it.

Well, I'll grant that my sample size may be skewed by the fact that most of the games I've seen McAlister play in recent seasons have been against a very good Cincinnati offense. Still, a "shutdown" corner should play well against better competition. The combination of Chad Johnson (avg 7-94, 3 TD, 9 targets/gm) and TJ Houshmandzadeh (avg 7-111, 4 TD, 10 targets/gm) have done well against the Baltimore corners over the past three years. A fair amount of that has come against McAlister, who, outside of a 2006 matchup where he had an INT and three passes defended, had only one pass defended total in the other five matchups. He was beaten on deep routes and timing routes, and in the red zone.He had a great statistical year in 2006; however, he took advantage of a pretty cushy schedule (nine games against the league's worst 12 offenses and two others against a struggling Roethlisberger) and, as SSOG points out, also benefited from a healthy defensive unit that appeared to have finally caught on to Rex Ryan's complicated playbook. I also remember reading that the Ravens used more zone coverage in 2006 in recent seasons. That's also coloring my perception. Good player, just no longer "shutdown" material.I don't know what the 2006 numbers will show, but IIRC, the metrics SSOG has been using to support Bailey's subjective play weren't as favorable for McAllister in 2005. I believe he had a YPA of over 7.0, was being targeted about as often as Samari Rolle and didn't rank inside the top twenty in any major metric. Again, pretty good across the board, but nothing that would suggest he was the same player he was earlier in his career.

These metrics back up my uneducated perception as a fan. Prior to last year, he had been pretty ordinary for a couple years as he did a lot of pouting about having the franchise tag put on him and such. Last year he played much better, but not as good as it looked like he would be early on. They played a little more zone last year, but it seemed a every once in a while, Ed Reed would get caught cheating up when Rolle or McAllister were releasing a wide receiver (or maybe they were just getting burned - I'm not smart enough to tell the difference most of the time). In general though, when Reed was back providing deep coverage, it seemed like he spent much more time backing up Rolle while McAllister was left to fend for himself. Again, no stats to back this up...just my perception from the stands.

 

[Bankerguy]

Newman from the Cowboys is next in line.......IMO.

 

[duaneok66]

Newman from the Cowboys is next in line.......IMO.

next in line for what???

 

[sholditch]

There aren't any. Can we please stop using this phrase until someone comes along, again, who is truly "shut down" material?

LOL, I was about to post that response until I read your reply . . .I concur . . .

Deon was a shut-down corner. Is there any CB in today's game who commands as much respect as Deon did? HE literally "shut down" one area of the field, and QBs simply had to play one side of the field or risk an INT on every pass. The very fact that Champ is a viable IDP tells you he's not a shut-down corner.

The fact that Bailey is a viable IDP tells you that he's unlike Deion Sanders- I agree 100%. Unlike Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey is ready, willing, and able to tackle.Champ Bailey covers every bit as well as Deion Sanders. He's a valuable IDP because he's also one of the best CBs in the league in terms of run support. Watch Bailey's game against St. Louis last year. Coaches could take tape from his tackles on Steven Jackson and run a seminar on how to make textbook open-field tackles. Ditto that for the games against KC and San Diego. Three of the hardest RBs in the league to take down, and Champ Bailey uses perfect form to take them down 1-on-1 in the open field. Which is good, because Denver's heavy use of the cover-2 means that tackling is incredibly important from the CB position- they're often isolated on the outside, and if the RB gets past them, it's a big gain. Good thing Denver didn't have Deion "They don't pay me to tackle" Sanders around.Just because he's not a prima donna like Sanders doesn't mean he's not every bit as good in coverage, though. Bailey's season last year was better than any season that Sanders ever had, especially when you consider that Sanders never had to play against the current rules (or, at least, he never played against the rules as they are currently enforced).Also, if you don't think teams avoided Champ Bailey last year, rewatch the New England game. Tom Brady was very obviously making a point of not even looking in Bailey's direction. Bailey was either in Brady's head, or else the offensive gameplan was clearly "whatever you do, DO NOT THROW AT BAILEY". If you mean to tell me otherwise, you're sorely mistaken. Watch the Arizona game, too. Leinart made a point of saying during the week that they were absolutely not going to avoid Bailey. When gametime rolled around, Leinart only threw in Bailey's direction twice. Bailey, I might add, finished the game with two interceptions.

Dude, chill, I love Champ. I was student at UGA when he and Hines and Robert Edwards all played. I LOVE Champ and think he is the best corner in the game today. But you can't say he scares QBs away the way Deon did. Yes, he's a much better tackler, a better all around defender. Like I said I am a HUGE champ fan, and yes, the good QBs know to shy away from his side of the field. But he is thrown at by most QBs in the league. Therefore he doesn't really fit my description of a shutdown corner. We may just have different definitions.Deon scared Qbbs to death, not only because he could outrun some WRs in the league running backwards (no kidding, check his 40 time running backwards. It's something ridiculous like 4.5), he was a threat to take it to the house on every interception. Offensive coordinators gameplanned specifically against throwing against him. I love Champ but I don't think he really demands that amount of respect.