sick and tired of hearing that the NFL is racist (1 Viewer)

[kellumsboys]

US population = 13% black

NFL head coaches = 19% black

What's the problem??

sounds like too many black head coaches to me hey, if the white guys are not good enough to play, the least we can do is let them coach

 

[nag']

Well, I think there's a pretty big difference here. All the Rooney Rule is allow otherwise historically overlooked candidates the opportunity. Better qualified white coaches would still get the job, but it helps give minority coaches hope since historically they haven't been considered.

The key word is historically, meaning in the past. In today's NFL, I do not see nor hear ANY evidence of racial-based discrimination against qualified black coaching candidates (unless you listen to the NAACP and their affirmitive action agenda). You want to say the Rooney Rule has played a major part in this, I'll give you that. But on many occasions, rules, laws and regulations outlive their time and their purpose. I believe this is one of those times. As a matter of fact, it's cause the opposite effect. Interviewing black candidates is often done as a "token" interview to avoid fines a-la Millen/Mariuchi situation 2 years ago. But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

 

[CalBear]

Simple sampling. If you have a box of 100 marbles, 13 black and 87 white, and another box of 100 marbles, 50 black and 50 white, and you pull six marbles from the first box and 26 marbles from the second box, how many black marbles would you expect to wind up with, assuming your pulling process is unbiased?

(Actually I doubt there are six head coaches in the NFL who never played pro or college football, but you should be able to understand the logic.)

I agree with your logic, but I disagree with the assumption that all NFL coaches have to have professional experience. But to run with your sampling analogy, how many black marbles are in the box of college coaches? And the box of assistant coaches? And the box of former head coaches? I think these boxes have to be looked at before we question the hiring practice of head coaches. But I will say the Rooney rule was a step in the right direction.

I started with the assumption that something like 80% of NFL coaches are former pro or college players. So the box with 13 black marbles represents the general U.S. population, and the box with 50 represents the pool of former pro and college players.Note that bias exists in many forms; the statements "more NFL and NCAA coaches should be black" and "the NFL and NCAA are racist" are not equivalent.

 

[BlueOnion]

I am not sure if the process needs to be tweeked at all, anything more could be viewed as some warped version of socialism.The reality is there are black head coaches and black assistant coaches and these coaches have been successful. Anybody not hiring a black because of his skin color is only cheating themselves.

 

[CalBear]

But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

It's hard to respond to statements so absurd, but let me try.1) Do you really think Marty Mornhiwegh and **** Jauron are the most qualified people for the jobs they got? Really?

2) The Rooney Rule is only four years old! There were only two black head coaches before the Rooney Rule (6% of the total), and the assistant coaching ranks (which aren't affected by the Rooney Rule) still are less than 10% black. 2005 was the first year in the history of the NFL that the percentage of black head coaches exceeded the percentage of blacks in the general population, let alone the percentage of blacks in the candidate pool. It's a nice milepost, and certainly better than it was back in those old, forgotten days of 2002, but to try to claim that the NFL has now acheived equity and parity is completely ridiculous.

 

[BlueOnion]

But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

It's hard to respond to statements so absurd, but let me try.

Really? You don't think Tony Dungy was qualified in Tampa? Lovie Smith in Chicago? Art Shell way back in the day? I think it is absurd to imply the notion that the NFL does not hire the most qualified candidates is aburd.

There is certainly room for improvement, but you speak like there is a lot of room for improvement.

 

[nag']

It's hard to respond to statements so absurd, but let me try.

1) Do you really think Marty Mornhiwegh and **** Jauron are the most qualified people for the jobs they got? Really?

Yep, that settles it - the Philadelphia Eagles and Buffalo Bills are a bunch of racists who would rather lose than hire blacks.

2) The Rooney Rule is only four years old! There were only two black head coaches before the Rooney Rule (6% of the total), and the assistant coaching ranks (which aren't affected by the Rooney Rule) still are less than 10% black. 2005 was the first year in the history of the NFL that the percentage of black head coaches exceeded the percentage of blacks in the general population, let alone the percentage of blacks in the candidate pool. It's a nice milepost, and certainly better than it was back in those old, forgotten days of 2002....

Four years might as well be forty years - it's still outdated. The NFL is a "win at all cost" business that has reached the age when it can police itself with regards to racial issues. The cream will continue to rise to the top, regadless of color.

...but to try to claim that the NFL has now acheived equity and parity is completely ridiculous

Do you even hear yourself? Who's being obsurd? The NFL's goal IS NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE to "acheive equity and parity" with regards to race, as long as there is no evidence of discriminatory hiring practices (and there aren't, regardless of your suggestions). The goal should be to hire the BEST MAN FOR THE JOB and that is what the NFL does!!!

 

[CalBear]

But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

It's hard to respond to statements so absurd, but let me try.

Really? You don't think Tony Dungy was qualified in Tampa? Lovie Smith in Chicago? Art Shell way back in the day? I think it is absurd to imply the notion that the NFL does not hire the most qualified candidates is aburd.

There is certainly room for improvement, but you speak like there is a lot of room for improvement.

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

 

[jurb26]

But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

It's hard to respond to statements so absurd, but let me try.

Really? You don't think Tony Dungy was qualified in Tampa? Lovie Smith in Chicago? Art Shell way back in the day? I think it is absurd to imply the notion that the NFL does not hire the most qualified candidates is aburd.

There is certainly room for improvement, but you speak like there is a lot of room for improvement.

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

So basically anytime an NFL team makes a hiring mistake or mistake in judgement with a white person, we are going to have to hear this race card played. How exciting... Although the teams try to hire the best man (or woman for the purposes of this PC thread) for the job, you can't possibly expect that they will be 100% right in their decisions. Listining to you talk, I would have to assume that every time a NFL team makes a hiring mistake you will cry racial foul on them and that a better more qualified minority was passed over. Yeah, maybe another person would have been a better fit. That person however could have been a white or a minority, we don't know and teams don't have portals to the future.

 

[nag']

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

The issue is not whether NFL hire unqualified people - of course they do, every other day. But rather if they INTENTIONALLY hire those unqualified people at the expense of a better qualified black person. The answer is NO.

 

[BlueOnion]

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

I really think you are trying to project something that doesn't really exist; which is racism in the NFL hiring practice. Lets look at each NFL franchise individually, what is the list of NFL teams that have never had a black NFL head coach - and racism could possibly exist?

 

[nag']

Listining to you talk, I would have to assume that every time a NFL team makes a hiring mistake you will cry racial foul on them and that a better more qualified minority was passed over.

He certainly will - he's from Berkeley. (sorry, had to do it )

 

[CalBear]

So basically anytime an NFL team makes a hiring mistake or mistake in judgement with a white person, we are going to have to hear this race card played.

I'm merely addressing the repeated, incorrect assertion that NFL teams always hire the most qualified candidate. It seems pretty obvious that they don't, so, you can't use that assertion to argue that blacks (or any other group of people) get a fair shake.There are many reasons why people make poor hiring decisions; those that are not due to incompetence are due to prejudice of one sort or another. Given the history of hiring in football, it seems more likely to be true that there is a bias against blacks than that there isn't. If you want to claim there is no bias against blacks, you are in the inconvenient position of having to explain why there were very few black coaches before the Rooney Rule, why there are many more black head coaches now, and why assistant coaches (not affected by the Rooney Rule) are still predominantly white. Those facts seem to indicate that qualified blacks are less likely to be interviewed than whites.

 

[pinequick]

But anyone who's paying attention can plainly see that the NFL hires the most qualified people for their coaching positions, regardless of race. Forcing teams to interview blacks is no longer a necessity. A qualified black candidate will get scooped up as fast as a white one does in this unbelievably competetive business.

2) The Rooney Rule is only four years old! There were only two black head coaches before the Rooney Rule (6% of the total), and the assistant coaching ranks (which aren't affected by the Rooney Rule) still are less than 10% black. 2005 was the first year in the history of the NFL that the percentage of black head coaches exceeded the percentage of blacks in the general population, let alone the percentage of blacks in the candidate pool. It's a nice milepost, and certainly better than it was back in those old, forgotten days of 2002, but to try to claim that the NFL has now acheived equity and parity is completely ridiculous.

This is the point that makes the most sense--the rule is in place for a reason. Do we think of the 1980's as "the age of racism?" How about the 90's? Probably not. And yet, how many minority coaches were in the NFL? Just coincidence, right?

Wait--maybe teams just wanted to win any less then? I don't think so.

So, following the "logic" forwarded by some here, if an NFL team will always try to hire the best person for the job, then I guess there were *amazingly* few good minority candidates during those two decades. Because certainly, NFL owners are obviously above reproach when it comes to issues of minority representativeness in their coaching staffs. So much so, that we don't even NEED the rule anymore.

1980 is not 1990 is not 2006. But to say that, in 2006, we're somehow "past" the issue is incredibly naive.

 

[CalBear]

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

I really think you are trying to project something that doesn't really exist; which is racism in the NFL hiring practice. Lets look at each NFL franchise individually, what is the list of NFL teams that have never had a black NFL head coach - and racism could possibly exist?

I think the issue is bias, not overt racism.

 

[BlueOnion]

So basically anytime an NFL team makes a hiring mistake or mistake in judgement with a white person, we are going to have to hear this race card played.

I'm merely addressing the repeated, incorrect assertion that NFL teams always hire the most qualified candidate. It seems pretty obvious that they don't, so, you can't use that assertion to argue that blacks (or any other group of people) get a fair shake.There are many reasons why people make poor hiring decisions; those that are not due to incompetence are due to prejudice of one sort or another. Given the history of hiring in football, it seems more likely to be true that there is a bias against blacks than that there isn't. If you want to claim there is no bias against blacks, you are in the inconvenient position of having to explain why there were very few black coaches before the Rooney Rule, why there are many more black head coaches now, and why assistant coaches (not affected by the Rooney Rule) are still predominantly white. Those facts seem to indicate that qualified blacks are less likely to be interviewed than whites.

Or could simply be (on average) blacks are currently less qualified. Here are the three key components to becoming an NFL head coachrior NFL head coaching experience

Prior Offensive or defensive [NFL] coordinator experience

Prior Division I head coaching experience

Which African Americans currently have 2 or possibly all 3 of these components on their resume? This is where I think the problem lies, if the objective is to get more minorities into NFL head coaching positions, then they first have to be given the opportunity to fulfill the roles that make up the big components of the resume.

 

[CalBear]

So basically anytime an NFL team makes a hiring mistake or mistake in judgement with a white person, we are going to have to hear this race card played.

I'm merely addressing the repeated, incorrect assertion that NFL teams always hire the most qualified candidate. It seems pretty obvious that they don't, so, you can't use that assertion to argue that blacks (or any other group of people) get a fair shake.There are many reasons why people make poor hiring decisions; those that are not due to incompetence are due to prejudice of one sort or another. Given the history of hiring in football, it seems more likely to be true that there is a bias against blacks than that there isn't. If you want to claim there is no bias against blacks, you are in the inconvenient position of having to explain why there were very few black coaches before the Rooney Rule, why there are many more black head coaches now, and why assistant coaches (not affected by the Rooney Rule) are still predominantly white. Those facts seem to indicate that qualified blacks are less likely to be interviewed than whites.

Or could simply be (on average) blacks are currently less qualified. Here are the three key components to becoming an NFL head coachrior NFL head coaching experience

Prior Offensive or defensive [NFL] coordinator experience

Prior Division I head coaching experience

Which African Americans currently have 2 or possibly all 3 of these components on their resume? This is where I think the problem lies, if the objective is to get more minorities into NFL head coaching positions, then they first have to be given the opportunity to fulfill the roles that make up the big components of the resume.

If blacks are actually less qualified, the Rooney Rule would have no effect; they would get an interview and be discarded as unqualified. If the Rooney Rule has an effect, it must be because people who weren't getting interviews before are now getting interviews, since the only requirement of the Rooney Rule is that you do an interview.[NB: The fact that there are now three times as many black coaches as there were before the Rooney Rule does not, in itself, constitute conclusive proof that the Rooney Rule had an effect. But it's suggestive.]

And I totally agree that the NCAA and the assistant coaching ranks are embarassing in this area.

 

[BlueOnion]

I don't believe that every NFL hire is an unqualified person; however, I have seen no evidence for the view that NFL teams always hire the most qualified person, and I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you can find many footballguys threads questioning the hiring decisions of NFL teams, racially-based or not, and you can certainly point to many franchises which seem to consistently make bad decisions. (It may be just coincidence that Cincinatti was one of those franchises until they hired a black head coach, or it may not be.)

I really think you are trying to project something that doesn't really exist; which is racism in the NFL hiring practice. Lets look at each NFL franchise individually, what is the list of NFL teams that have never had a black NFL head coach - and racism could possibly exist?

I think the issue is bias, not overt racism.

Is there anything wrong with being bias?

 

[nag']

If blacks are actually less qualified, the Rooney Rule would have no effect; they would get an interview and be discarded as unqualified.  If the Rooney Rule has an effect, it must be because people who weren't getting interviews before are now getting interviews, since the only requirement of the Rooney Rule is that you do an interview.

Unqualified persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified person waits behind.Can we agree on that? I would hope so. Read it again if you have to.

Now insert the words black & white into that same sentence.

Unqualified black persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified white person waits behind.

Btw, you can interchange the words black and white - it should make no difference.

 

[pinequick]

If blacks are actually less qualified, the Rooney Rule would have no effect; they would get an interview and be discarded as unqualified.  If the Rooney Rule has an effect, it must be because people who weren't getting interviews before are now getting interviews, since the only requirement of the Rooney Rule is that you do an interview.

Unqualified persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified person waits behind.Can we agree on that? I would hope so. Read it again if you have to.

Now insert the words black & white into that same sentence.

Unqualified black persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified white person waits behind.

Btw, you can interchange the words black and white - it should make no difference.

And therein lies the rub. I agree--it should make no difference. You seem to be arguing that since it should be true, it is true.

 

[BlueOnion]

Unqualified black persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified white person waits behind.

Btw, you can interchange the words black and white - it should make no difference.

There is no cap on the number of people an owner can interview for a job, so nobody is being left behind. This is quite absurd as well.

 

[CalBear]

Is there anything wrong with being bias?

There are a number of things wrong with being biased. Economic: If you're biased, you make sub-optimal decisions. Two choices which are equal will seem unequal to you, and worse, a choice which is poorer may seem better than the alternative. (Example: Someone who is has a positive bias for people with head coaching experience may choose Marty Mornhiwegh for an offensive coordinator position, even though he was an abject failure as a head coach).

Legal: Racial bias in hiring is illegal. "Companies can be held liable if pre-employment screening or testing is determined to be discriminatory...or if the overall selection process is deemed to be unfair."

Moral: It is morally wrong to fail to interview or hire a black person simply because he is black. Yes, that's a value judgement; sue me.

 

[thesurfshop19]

If blacks are actually less qualified, the Rooney Rule would have no effect; they would get an interview and be discarded as unqualified. If the Rooney Rule has an effect, it must be because people who weren't getting interviews before are now getting interviews, since the only requirement of the Rooney Rule is that you do an interview.

[NB: The fact that there are now three times as many black coaches as there were before the Rooney Rule does not, in itself, constitute conclusive proof that the Rooney Rule had an effect. But it's suggestive.]

And I totally agree that the NCAA and the assistant coaching ranks are embarassing in this area.

I think this is the best, most important post in this thread.The fact that the Rooney Rule has helped many coaches get jobs and even more get valuable interviewing experience and connections leads me to believe that it's serving its purpose without hurting anyone.

 

[nag']

Unqualified black persons should NEVER even get the OPPORTUNITY to interview for a position while a qualified white person waits behind.

Btw, you can interchange the words black and white - it should make no difference.

There is no cap on the number of people an owner can interview for a job, so nobody is being left behind. This is quite absurd as well.

Sure there's a "cap". Of course not an official one but GMs usually target a handful or so candidates and typically interview 2-3 of them. Since one of these interviews HAS to be a black coach who MAY be underqualified, it would not allow for a more qualified white coach to get his chance at the job. I don't think I'm saying anything new. This has been the major criticism of affirmative action for years.

 

[CalBear]

Sure there's a "cap". Of course not an official one but GMs usually target a handful or so candidates and typically interview 2-3 of them. Since one of these interviews HAS to be a black coach who MAY be underqualified, it would not allow for a more qualified white coach to get his chance at the job. I don't think I'm saying anything new. This has been the major criticism of affirmative action for years.

Could you point out some underqualified black coaches who have gotten interviews, and suggest some qualified white coaches who might not have gotten an interview they deserved because the team had to interview a black coach?The effect you claim, if it exists, is completely negligible. If that's the best you can come up with as the major criticism of affirmative action, there mustn't be anything wrong with such programs.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

A point nobody has brought up yet is that one of the elements necessary to be a coach at any level is a desire to coach. Calbear, are you sure that the ratio of black coaches doesn't in some way reflect the number of people choosing to go into that line of work? Most complanies hire very few black engineers, not because of bias, but because not very many black students choose to go into engineering. Also, some might think that blacks have some physical advantage that causes them to be overrepresented among the players. But those types of advantages are not important for coaching. It might not be surprising that there is some regression to the background demographics.

 

[BlueOnion]

There are a number of things wrong with being biased.

Economic: If you're biased, you make sub-optimal decisions. Two choices which are equal will seem unequal to you, and worse, a choice which is poorer may seem better than the alternative. (Example: Someone who is has a positive bias for people with head coaching experience may choose Marty Mornhiwegh for an offensive coordinator position, even though he was an abject failure as a head coach).

That is the great thing about America, everybody is entitled to make their own decisions and there is no right or wrong.

Legal: Racial bias in hiring is illegal. "Companies can be held liable if pre-employment screening or testing is determined to be discriminatory...or if the overall selection process is deemed to be unfair."

Moral: It is morally wrong to fail to interview or hire a black person simply because he is black. Yes, that's a value judgement; sue me.

But you implied the issue was not racism, but instead owners being bias. To me, that implied the use of the word 'bias' is exclusive of racism.

 

[BlueOnion]

Sure there's a "cap". Of course not an official one but GMs usually target a handful or so candidates and typically interview 2-3 of them. Since one of these interviews HAS to be a black coach who MAY be underqualified, it would not allow for a more qualified white coach to get his chance at the job. I don't think I'm saying anything new. This has been the major criticism of affirmative action for years.

So your beef is with owners and GMs being lazy for not interviewing as many qualified candidates as they can? Affirmative action is not the same thing as the Rooney rule has to do with opportunity, affirmative action had to do with actual hiring. Nobody is telling the teams who to hire and who to not hire (this would be affirmative action). The league is simply asking owners to interview minority candidates. Apparently your beef is with the owners who you believe are more focused on interviewing a set number of candidates instead of interviewing all potential candidates.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Yes, it bothers me that RACE is a factor in the hiring process, period. It wasn't fair 50 years ago when blacks were discriminated against and it's not fair now when the situation is reversed. And the answer is YES, white coaches ARE being discriminated against when NFL teams are forced to interview and/or hire black candidates strictly because they are black.

Please make a list of well qualified white coaches that were passed up for less qualified black ones.TIA

 

[CalBear]

A point nobody has brought up yet is that one of the elements necessary to be a coach at any level is a desire to coach. Calbear, are you sure that the ratio of black coaches doesn't in some way reflect the number of people choosing to go into that line of work? Most complanies hire very few black engineers, not because of bias, but because not very many black students choose to go into engineering.

Also, some might think that blacks have some physical advantage that causes them to be overrepresented among the players. But those types of advantages are not important for coaching. It might not be surprising that there is some regression to the background demographics.

There could be biases other than in the selection and interview process, yes. But if the Rooney Rule actually has an effect, there must have been a bias in the selection process as well.

 

[Warpig]

Hey...I'm a middle class white boy and after all the coaching cuts were made I thought Herm Edwards was the classiest, best coach available. Better than Martz, Haslett, Tice, and Sherman. The only other coach I may have considered was Mooch. Even though I knew I really wanted Herm, should I have given Mooch a "sympathy" interview? Race is such BS. I want the best coaching candidate available for my team...and to me Herm was the man. Would you want Lofton as your HC just because he's black? Or how about Singletary? I don't think they deserve the chance JUST BECAUSE they are black. If they have learned the finer points of coaching like how to deal with egos and knowing which buttons to push with different players to get them to perform above their level then that helps make you a better coach...not just knowing a position or the X's and O's of the game. To me the best coaches for that are people like Parcell's, Holmgren, Reid, Edwards, and even Dennis Green strikes me as that type of coach. Maybe that's why (with the exception of Green) those are some of the most successful coaches. Oh and another excellent coach I forgot about...MARV LEWIS! I'd love for him to be the coach of my team! It's all about the class or pedigree of the coach.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Hey...I'm a middle class white boy and after all the coaching cuts were made I thought Herm Edwards was the classiest, best coach available. Better than Martz, Haslett, Tice, and Sherman. The only other coach I may have considered was Mooch. Even though I knew I really wanted Herm, should I have given Mooch a "sympathy" interview? Race is such BS. I want the best coaching candidate available for my team...and to me Herm was the man. Would you want Lofton as your HC just because he's black? Or how about Singletary? I don't think they deserve the chance JUST BECAUSE they are black. If they have learned the finer points of coaching like how to deal with egos and knowing which buttons to push with different players to get them to perform above their level then that helps make you a better coach...not just knowing a position or the X's and O's of the game. To me the best coaches for that are people like Parcell's, Holmgren, Reid, Edwards, and even Dennis Green strikes me as that type of coach. Maybe that's why (with the exception of Green) those are some of the most successful coaches. Oh and another excellent coach I forgot about...MARV LEWIS! I'd love for him to be the coach of my team! It's all about the class or pedigree of the coach.

I think ideally everyone agrees with you.In the real world, we've seen otherwise qualified black candidates passed over for opportunities because they simply weren't seen (consciously or subconsciously) as "head coach material".

The Rooney Rule simply gives deserving candidates a chance. The fact that it's made a difference (on some level) should tell you everything you need to know about it.

Sometimes you don't know who's truly qualified until you talk to them face to face. And this rule gives qualified minority candidates a chance to talk.

 

[nag']

Yes, it bothers me that RACE is a factor in the hiring process, period. It wasn't fair 50 years ago when blacks were discriminated against and it's not fair now when the situation is reversed. And the answer is YES, white coaches ARE being discriminated against when NFL teams are forced to interview and/or hire black candidates strictly because they are black.

Please make a list of well qualified white coaches that were passed up for less qualified black ones.TIA

Sure, as soon as you make a list of well qualified black coaches that were passed up for less qualified white ones the year PRIOR to the Rooney Rule. Thanks.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Yes, it bothers me that RACE is a factor in the hiring process, period. It wasn't fair 50 years ago when blacks were discriminated against and it's not fair now when the situation is reversed. And the answer is YES, white coaches ARE being discriminated against when NFL teams are forced to interview and/or hire black candidates strictly because they are black.

Please make a list of well qualified white coaches that were passed up for less qualified black ones.TIA

Sure, as soon as you make a list of well qualified black coaches that were passed up for less qualified white ones the year PRIOR to the Rooney Rule. Thanks.

You're the one claiming the Rooney Rule is unfair. Prove it.And while I think it's unfair to attribute all of the new black coaches' success to the Rooney Rule, it's clear it's having an effect, which essentially answers your question.

 

[NattyDread]

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews. I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach. The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

 

[Warpig]

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews. I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach. The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

I'm not bent out of shape at all. I just think if I were a black coach, I wouldn't want to get an interview solely to be that "token black guy". I'd want to know I got the job because of my abilities. I just don't understand why such a big deal was made out of it. Why does there have to be 50/50 coaches? Shouldn't it be 50/50 players as well then? It can go both ways. But I think white collar America feels obligated to try to push black people to the forefront to appease them. It's just a mess when you think about it. Hypocritical frenzy.

 

[BigTex]

The key word in your post is "past".  I'm sure in the PAST that there was racism, however that was all in the PAST. 

Yes, I'm sure any guys in charge of hiring 10 years ago that were racist, suddenly stopped being racist.

You speak with great wisdom.

P.S

Minority does not equal blacks only.

 

[CalBear]

Yes, it bothers me that RACE is a factor in the hiring process, period. It wasn't fair 50 years ago when blacks were discriminated against and it's not fair now when the situation is reversed. And the answer is YES, white coaches ARE being discriminated against when NFL teams are forced to interview and/or hire black candidates strictly because they are black.

Please make a list of well qualified white coaches that were passed up for less qualified black ones.TIA

Sure, as soon as you make a list of well qualified black coaches that were passed up for less qualified white ones the year PRIOR to the Rooney Rule. Thanks.

How about Marvin Lewis and Romeo Crennel? Lewis was defensive coordinator for the Super Bowl-winning #1 defense of all time in 2000, and Crennel was defensive coordinator for the Super Bowl-winning Patriots in 2001. Neither got a head coaching job until after the Rooney Rule, and both have been successful head coaches.

 

[BlueOnion]

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews.  I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach.  The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

I'm not bent out of shape at all. I just think if I were a black coach, I wouldn't want to get an interview solely to be that "token black guy". I'd want to know I got the job because of my abilities. I just don't understand why such a big deal was made out of it. Why does there have to be 50/50 coaches? Shouldn't it be 50/50 players as well then? It can go both ways. But I think white collar America feels obligated to try to push black people to the forefront to appease them. It's just a mess when you think about it. Hypocritical frenzy.

This is exactly why no minorities interviewed for the Detroit job (pre Mooch) and consequently why Detroit was punished. Although I don't think what Millen did was necessarily wrong, it does best exemplify the short-comings of the rule.

 

[thesurfshop19]

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews.  I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach.  The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

I'm not bent out of shape at all. I just think if I were a black coach, I wouldn't want to get an interview solely to be that "token black guy". I'd want to know I got the job because of my abilities. I just don't understand why such a big deal was made out of it. Why does there have to be 50/50 coaches? Shouldn't it be 50/50 players as well then? It can go both ways. But I think white collar America feels obligated to try to push black people to the forefront to appease them. It's just a mess when you think about it. Hypocritical frenzy.

The only thing is that in most cases, they're not just the "token black guy" ... they're legitimate contenders for the job. It's a new opportunity for them, as owners and GMs are taking them seriously as coaching prospects.

 

[Warpig]

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews.  I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach.  The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

I'm not bent out of shape at all. I just think if I were a black coach, I wouldn't want to get an interview solely to be that "token black guy". I'd want to know I got the job because of my abilities. I just don't understand why such a big deal was made out of it. Why does there have to be 50/50 coaches? Shouldn't it be 50/50 players as well then? It can go both ways. But I think white collar America feels obligated to try to push black people to the forefront to appease them. It's just a mess when you think about it. Hypocritical frenzy.

The only thing is that in most cases, they're not just the "token black guy" ... they're legitimate contenders for the job. It's a new opportunity for them, as owners and GMs are taking them seriously as coaching prospects.

I'd say this year was a down year for black coaching candidates. Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team? Like I said, the only other ones I've heard of were Lofton and Singletary. Do you honestly think that either of them had HC abilities? I'm just asking since I don't know much about them other than their playing careers. Just because you were an excellent player doesn't make you an excellent coach. Nothing wrong with working your way up the ranks. If they are responsible for putting out Pro-Bowl players for a couple years then yes, by all means consider them as HC suitors. I think it will gradually come along and get better. Marvin Lewis, Herm Edwards, Romeo Crennel, Tony Dungy, and Denny Green are all excellent coaches and people will start jumping on board. But there are excellent white coaches that deserve the jobs as well and then it comes down to who interviews better. A black coach shouldn't just be handed a job...and neither should a white coach.

 

[BlueOnion]

Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team?

I think Tim Lewis deserved at least an interview.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team?

I think Tim Lewis deserved at least an interview.

It seems to me that a lot of the young, white hires sort of came out of nowhere. Not every coach who's hired is a "hot prospect" for several years before. Tim Lewis probably deserved an interview, but other, lesser-known black coaches also got interviews which is great for them and teams going forward.

 

[Warpig]

Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team?

I think Tim Lewis deserved at least an interview.

See, I don't even know who Tim Lewis is. Must be a positional coach for a team I'm not that informed on...and there are quite a few of them.

 

[BlueOnion]

Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team?

I think Tim Lewis deserved at least an interview.

See, I don't even know who Tim Lewis is. Must be a positional coach for a team I'm not that informed on...and there are quite a few of them.

Defensive coordinator for the Giants. The defense far exceeded expectations and Umienyora (sp??) really had a break out season. A bigger factor in Lewis not getting interviewed may have to do with Coughlin not letting his assistance talk to the media.

 

[Refbuz]

What is considered an "acceptable" number of minority coaches in the NFL???Is 6 enough or is it more like 16?Are we even having this conversation if nobody got fired this year???

 

[nag']

You're the one claiming the Rooney Rule is unfair. Prove it.

Any rule or law that favors or gives certain advantages to persons because of their particular race, color or nationality is inherently unfair, thus the Rooney Rule is unfair, even though it's intentions were noble.If you don't understand that, you've been brainwashed by the PC police.

 

[nag']

I guess I just fail to see why Warpig and Nag are so bent out of shape by a policy (Rooney Rule) that only aims to make more minority candidates available for job interviews. I don't get how white coaching candidates are hurt by this approach. The Rooney Rule makes no demands on owners about who to hire.

Let's say it like it is now. No need to make it sound less forceful. The Rooney Rule REQUIRES black coaches to be inteviewed, not "make more minority candidates available for job interviews".

 

[Yenrub]

Other than Herm, who would you have given a chance to coach your team?

I think Tim Lewis deserved at least an interview.

See, I don't even know who Tim Lewis is. Must be a positional coach for a team I'm not that informed on...and there are quite a few of them.

Yahoo linkHere is a list of the minority coaches who interviewed for Head Coaching positions this offseason. I tried to list their position for 2005.

Art Shell – Former Raider Head coach

Jim Caldwell – 2005 Assistant HC & QB coach Colts

Tim Lewis – 2005 Defensive Coordinator NYG (previously DC with Steelers)

Ted Cottrell – 2005 Defensive Coordinator Vikings (previously DC with Bills & Jets)

Donnie Henderson – 2005 Defensive Coordinator NYJ (previously position coach with Ravens)

Ron Rivera – 2004 & 2005 Defensive Coordinator Bears (previously position coach with Eagles)

Maurice Carthon – 2005 Offensive Coordinator Browns (previously position coach/ assistant OC Dallas and OC with Lions)

Jerry Gray – 2001-2005 Defensive Coordinator Bills

Greg Blache – 2005 Defensive Coordinator/Def Line coach Redskins

 

[nag']

I'm not bent out of shape at all. I just think if I were a black coach, I wouldn't want to get an interview solely to be that "token black guy". I'd want to know I got the job because of my abilities. I just don't understand why such a big deal was made out of it. Why does there have to be 50/50 coaches? Shouldn't it be 50/50 players as well then? It can go both ways. But I think white collar America feels obligated to try to push black people to the forefront to appease them. It's just a mess when you think about it. Hypocritical frenzy.

Excellent post. Racial equality does NOT work both ways. That is why it's not really "equality". The intentions are good but unfortunately the results will always be unfair, especially with regards to the majority. In this case, it's qualified white coaching candidates.