Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Good to see that this thread has entered into its "she's no Bellerophon the Blameless" stage.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Simone Biles Withdraws From Competition - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Good to see that this thread has entered into its "she's no Bellerophon the Blameless" stage.
HarryKane09
Footballguy
And to be fair, “I am NOT a time traveler from antiquity” is exactly what a time traveler from antiquity trying to pass himself off as a man from the current day would say, so I am asking people to make a leap of faith on that.
Todem
Footballguy
Yup....this is what our society has come to. This is why I don’t bother going on the arm pit of the entire world.
Social Media.
I just hang out here with you fine folks.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Didn't read all of the posts. The mind is a fragile place. And we've been tested in unprecedented ways the past year and half. Add on to that the pressures associated with expectations to be the face of the Olympics, to be machine like "perfect", to not damage her brand, the Nassar travesty, etc and it's not a surprise that she could crack. She lost her confidence. It was apparent at the US finals. She was a mess and I told my wife no way she'll perform well at the Olympics. It's was in her head then and was only going to compound.
She's the greatest gymnast of all time.
She's the greatest gymnast of all time.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I was pretty vocal in supporting her in my early posts in this thread and simply want to follow thru with more support that she not compete in the individual competition upcoming.
Anyone who starts crying about how someone could have taken her spot, just can it please. You sound ridiculous IMO and I think it's incredibly short sighted. I don't think everybody knows the horrific details of Nassar and as I have stated, the entire coaching staff who oversaw a lot of this should be in jail alongside with him, males and females I might add.
I'm not upset at any of the posters who feel she let her teammates down or maybe didn't represent that American flag as best she could, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I even posted that I was "disappointed" when I first herd the news. But an opinion is usually based on gathered info or I guess it could be based on what people have seen briefly on TV.
You can read the details of what this man did here but I will print what I think is fairly easy to understand but maybe is slipping the minds of some folks when they speak out about Simone.
Nasser admitted that as a doctor, he was in a position of authority over his victims, and that he used that position to coerce them to submit to the penetration. All of the victims in the Michigan cases were under the age of 16 and three were younger than 13.
Nassar is serving a 60 year sentence in a FedPrison in Florida. He is also serving a 125 year sentence from Eaton County and a 175 year sentence in Ingham County in Michigan where he was employed by Michigan State in case anyone forgets, he had the backing of a UNIVERSITY behind him when he was forcing these girls and women into being penetrated.
Part of the issue here for me and something I wanted to get more discussion going on was the lack of JUSTICE we create as a society. Hundreds if not thousands of women were sexually abused, molested, assaulted, and it looks like a hefty prison sentence but when you divide by the number of lives he ruined and other lives impacted from having to help these victims like immediate family. Her boyfriend Jonathan Owens, he probably has to deal with and be understanding of what Simone has gone thru, he didn't ask for this spotlight but I loved what he wrote in support of her.
Rachel Denhollander was a big part of helping put away Nassar and you all might want to also read about her journey as well.
My opinion is some folks don't understand or know the heinous acts that were committed by someone who was thought to be helping and healing, working for a major University, backed by a lot of authority which put pressure on the athletes and girls to comply and go along with it. Then we have even fewer people apparently that know how to react or handle situations when bad things happen.
Ask yourself if you really think what happened with Simone Biles and women's gymnastics is unique, think that is happening in any other women's sports? Especially the ones where men have a lot of control. I don't think men should be coaching young girls in anything and men have proven throughout history that we cannot be trusted. Adults of both genders but especially men have been sexually assaulting children/teens for thousands of years and it's never going to change I'm sad to say.
The penalty for touching a minor sexually should be LIFE with no parole and I would support execution, don't laugh because it's sad what we have created. These sexual assaulters get a couple years most of the time, register on the list, then go out and commit the same crimes again...why would we as a society allow for that to happen? Because as I stated in another thread in the PF, the lawmakers know if they make it a Life sentence they might be putting themselves or a family member away forever.
Anyone who starts crying about how someone could have taken her spot, just can it please. You sound ridiculous IMO and I think it's incredibly short sighted. I don't think everybody knows the horrific details of Nassar and as I have stated, the entire coaching staff who oversaw a lot of this should be in jail alongside with him, males and females I might add.
I'm not upset at any of the posters who feel she let her teammates down or maybe didn't represent that American flag as best she could, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I even posted that I was "disappointed" when I first herd the news. But an opinion is usually based on gathered info or I guess it could be based on what people have seen briefly on TV.
You can read the details of what this man did here but I will print what I think is fairly easy to understand but maybe is slipping the minds of some folks when they speak out about Simone.
Nasser admitted that as a doctor, he was in a position of authority over his victims, and that he used that position to coerce them to submit to the penetration. All of the victims in the Michigan cases were under the age of 16 and three were younger than 13.
Nassar is serving a 60 year sentence in a FedPrison in Florida. He is also serving a 125 year sentence from Eaton County and a 175 year sentence in Ingham County in Michigan where he was employed by Michigan State in case anyone forgets, he had the backing of a UNIVERSITY behind him when he was forcing these girls and women into being penetrated.
Part of the issue here for me and something I wanted to get more discussion going on was the lack of JUSTICE we create as a society. Hundreds if not thousands of women were sexually abused, molested, assaulted, and it looks like a hefty prison sentence but when you divide by the number of lives he ruined and other lives impacted from having to help these victims like immediate family. Her boyfriend Jonathan Owens, he probably has to deal with and be understanding of what Simone has gone thru, he didn't ask for this spotlight but I loved what he wrote in support of her.
Rachel Denhollander was a big part of helping put away Nassar and you all might want to also read about her journey as well.
My opinion is some folks don't understand or know the heinous acts that were committed by someone who was thought to be helping and healing, working for a major University, backed by a lot of authority which put pressure on the athletes and girls to comply and go along with it. Then we have even fewer people apparently that know how to react or handle situations when bad things happen.
Ask yourself if you really think what happened with Simone Biles and women's gymnastics is unique, think that is happening in any other women's sports? Especially the ones where men have a lot of control. I don't think men should be coaching young girls in anything and men have proven throughout history that we cannot be trusted. Adults of both genders but especially men have been sexually assaulting children/teens for thousands of years and it's never going to change I'm sad to say.
The penalty for touching a minor sexually should be LIFE with no parole and I would support execution, don't laugh because it's sad what we have created. These sexual assaulters get a couple years most of the time, register on the list, then go out and commit the same crimes again...why would we as a society allow for that to happen? Because as I stated in another thread in the PF, the lawmakers know if they make it a Life sentence they might be putting themselves or a family member away forever.
Last edited by a moderator:
GoBirds
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
What an utterly bizarre statement. She's the greatest gymnast of all time, the defending Olympic gold medalist and had just come in first at the trials. And she's supposed to just pull out because of an "inkling of doubt"? Should Mahomes have pulled out of last year's Super Bowl because there was inkling of doubt that his toe would hold up? Also, I'm sure the people who are now criticizing her for waiting too long would have been falling over themselves to praise her for bowing out because she might not have been able to to perform well.
As you say, we don't know what she was dealing with, but the most plausible scenario is that she and everyone else knew that, if she was at the top of her game, she gave the US its best chance to win. So it certainly makes sense that she would try to push through and hope the situation would improve. At a certain point, she concluded that she was not at her best, and that continuing would not put the US in the best position to win (while also putting herself in grave physical danger), so she pulled out.
I swear, it feels like people are just looking for reasons to criticize her at this point.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Relax, Strapper....I'm pretty much on her side. That being said, if what one does is dangerous and your head is not in game wholeheartedly.....you can put yourself in significant risk. The great Nariyoshi Kesuke Miyagi once said,
" Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later,....... get squish, just like grape. Here karate, same thing. Either you karate do, yes, or karate do, no. You karate do, guess so,........just like grape.”
I'm just glad she didn't hurt herself.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
OK, I might have overreacted. And I totally agree that she should have pulled out at the point where it got dangerous. I think that last vault she did really made it apparent. But I don't blame her for doing everything she could to get past it before finally realizing it just wasn't going to happen. I've never had the yips or the twisties, but I suspect one aspect of it is that it feels like something you should easily be able to overcome. Why shouldn't Mackey Sasser be able to throw the ball back to the pitcher? Why shouldn't Biles be able to land the same jumps she's been doing for years? Realizing that you can't, and that you have to give up on the dream you've been single-mindedly pursuing for five years, has to be an incredibly tough barrier to break through.
Related story on a much smaller scale: a few years ago my wife's friend was running the NYC Marathon. Since we lived near the route, we hosted a brunch that morning for her friends and family so we could all cheer her on when she ran by at around Mile 8. We went outside well before the time we expected her, and waited ... and waited ... and waited. Finally we see her walking slowly up to where we were. Turned out she had been having stomach problems since the beginning of the race. I had previously run a bunch of marathons, so I huddled with her and her dad to figure out what she should do. I remember feeling so sympathetic for the torture she must be going through, knowing on the one hand how difficult it was going to be to finish the remaining 18 miles, but at the same time how hard it would be to give up on the goal she had spent months training for. I also knew from experience that, once you're feeling better, it's easy to look back on that moment and think, "Was I really that bad off or could I have fought through it?" Long story short, she pulled out, and when she got to work the next day she discovered that half of her coworkers had also gotten sick over the weekend from the Chinese food they had eaten together at lunch on Friday.
Regarding the bolded statement.......bowing out because you "might not be able to perform well" is a problem. There are many times when an athlete just doesn't have it and they shouldn't just quit. Work through it and give your best for that particular day and win or lose you did what you could. That is what sport is about.
However, bowing out because you are mentally drained that could lead to significant physical injury is a different situation. I am not a gymnast and have no idea about the rigors and risks of competing with the "twisties". I can understand this could be a huge risk with the tasks that gymnasts need to complete. This is different than just not feeling your best.
This is basically knowing the difference between "injured" and "hurt". It's a fine line but it is a line that all athletes need to figure out at some point in their careers.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Totally agree, and to clarify, I was saying that in the hypothetical situation where she pulled out because she had an inkling of doubt, she would have gotten way more criticism than what she is getting now.
Your post helped me realize one of the other challenges faced by athletes with mental-health problems: If it's something physical, both she and her trainers have a pretty good idea of where the injury/hurt line is, and how much risk she's taking on. With mental health, it's much trickier. She might not have a lot of experience dealing with these types of situations, and it's not like the trainer can measure the range of motion for her brain the way they could for a sprained ankle. Which is all the more reason she deserves the benefit of the doubt for thinking before the Olympics that she could get through this as well as for realizing this week that she couldn't. This s##t is really hard.
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Mental health is tricky and knowing "injured" from "hurt" is basically impossible for that type of thing. Mental toughness is also a component and part of being an elite athlete is being able to fight through the doubt and pressure (yips/twisties/etc). How do you really measure injured vs hurt for that type of thing? I have no idea.
This situation is really dancing a really fine line because the less mentally strong (not those with mental illness or issues but just not very strong mentally) can start to use this situation as an excuse to give up when they shouldn't and there is no test, as you said, to find that "range of motion" to know if it's ok to proceed or not. It's basically an impossible thing to do.
This has been good to start discussion but I can also see it leading to a negative of people using this as a bit of a crutch to not push themselves to strive to new levels. Sports is about doing that. Pushing through pain/hardship/etc to see where you can get to. Those that can usually end up as much better people on the other side. My worry is if people stop pushing themselves because it's too hard and lose that possibility. It's a very fine line and very hard to know whether your are injured or hurt.
Just saw this article. If she was unable to take her meds this could have been the cause of her problem.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/simone-biles-adhd-meds-banned-japan-impacting-performance-2021-7%3famp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/simone-biles-adhd-meds-banned-japan-impacting-performance-2021-7%3famp
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
I definitely get your point, but the Lions haven't found a way to replace Sanders in over 20 years. What makes you think they would have found a way to do it in the 1999 draft if he retired in April instead of July? As I pointed out earlier, they botched every single pick that year and in most drafts since that time.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Welp, the best tennis player in the world and possibly the goat bowed out of the bronze medal match in mixed doubles. He lost his last three matches. Two in singles and one in mixed doubles. He was overwhelmed in his last two singles matches. So frustrated he threw one racket 14 rows into the stands and destroyed another on the net post. His mixed doubles partner is a very good friend and I'm sure she supported his decision but it was the only shot at a medal she will ever have. He quit.
Last edited by a moderator:
GoBirds
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I'm confused. Is your point that Biles doesn't have a monopoly on quitting? Or something else?
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I don’t think she should be praised for dropping out.
I’m also not going to criticize her. If she isn’t right she could end up paralyzed or worse. This isn’t basketball or football.
I do worry that while these emotions are real and should be acknowledged - why are people today so mentally fragile?
I’m also not going to criticize her. If she isn’t right she could end up paralyzed or worse. This isn’t basketball or football.
I do worry that while these emotions are real and should be acknowledged - why are people today so mentally fragile?
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
lol... what I mean? I have to mean something?
I just shared a current related story. Seemed relevant. Both considered goats by many. Both struggling at these Olympics. Both quit while seemingly okay physically. No point. Just a story I watched play out over several days that seemed appropriate for this discussion.
update - when I posted the story here his departure was reported as mental frustration and exhaustion. he has since cited a shoulder injury. so, i guess not so relevant after all. seemed so for a few hours. sure some will question the injury since he was blasting 135 mph aces in the last set and hitting the ball pretty crisp. I love Novak and don't question it.
Carry on
Last edited by a moderator:
Caveman33
Footballguy
Novak bailing on the team event after under performing during singles seems worthy of some criticism. His shoulder may have hurt but that wasn't his biggest issue. Simone remained honest about her situation, and the risk of serious injury was much higher. I still think the public adulation she received was over done but I don't see anything selfish in her decision.Chaos Commish said:
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
There are people who can take the heat and there are people who can’t. If you can’t take the heat get the #### out of the kitchen.
The Olympics is the kitchen.
I couldn’t disagree with you more about it being properly handled today. I could agree that it’s starting to be properly addressed and then eventually we should probably open back up the metal facilities and take care of people- unlike they used to do, as you say, just forget about them.
On a general scope, not an Olympic athlete, 99.99% of mentally challenged people are just handed the keys to a efficiency condo, a free bus pass and prescriptions to the local pharmacy. That’s not handling things properly.
Last edited by a moderator:
said very well and this is 100% where I am at....I am struggling to think of the "twisties or yips" as really a "mental health issue" in terms of what we (at least I) think of when having serious "mental health issues"....
I think this semi new "mental health awareness" thing is awesome but I'm just not sure the twisties is what we are really intending it to mean so to speak...not sure she should be praised for quitting because she has the twisties which in a way in my mind is kind of like choking under pressure or the shanks in golf...I realize it puts her at risk, and that is fine she should pull out, but I am struggling to really correlate it with a serious mental health issue....she had a couple of bad routines and then says she got the twisties/mental health issues....the timing is curious...
if she has mental health issues because of Nassar or whatever, that is one thing.....but I am struggling to correlate twisties with serious mental health issues....the moment may have just gotten too big for her even though she is the best of all time....it can happen...if your mind "wasn't right" because you cracked under pressure just come out and say that....don't say you have "mental health issues".....I can see how some might think its an excuse/crutch and an easy way out with the new "movement".....nobody can really question you without coming off as a jerk and insensitive....
Last edited by a moderator:
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I get what you're saying. Ultimately, none of us know what is really going on with her. My view is that if anyone has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's her. So if she says she's unable to continue, I accept that without sweating the details.
As for what it means if it's "just" a case of the twisties, I'm not a sports psychologist, but when people like Knoblauch and Mackey Sasser had their issues, I don't recall anyone saying they cracked under pressure. My semi-informed opinion is that the yips are their own (mysterious) category, something athletes seem to come down with periodically for unknown reasons that renders them incapable of performing at their best. And of course, Biles' case put her at risk of serious bodily harm, whereas with Knoblauch, the only one who was at risk was Keith Olbermann's mom.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
1. She's proven over and over to be able to take the heat.
2. Isn't a bit of what she did realizing she wasn't 100%, maybe couldn't "take the heat" this time, and stepped away? Seems like she did what you are suggesting, but then she is being called weak for doing so.
Can't it be both the right thing to do and a sign of weakness when it comes to competing? I think this is where I struggle a bit and her trying to do the beam event makes me lean towards the weakness aspect and it not being truly a "mental health" issue as @Stinkin Refoutlined above. To me (and this is just me thinking out loud with no real knowledge of the situation) if she had truly debilitating mental health issues going on there is no way she should try any event (let alone balancing on a 4" beam while doing flips). If she had the twisties where she just had a mental block and she has practiced and worked through it then that is like every other athlete that struggles with confidence and has to work through it. To me these are two very different things.
Biles has been applauded for stepping away for "mental health issues" but getting back on the beam should be given less credence to her situation as it is seeming more like a confidence issue that she couldn't handle the big stage this time.
I have no idea the right answer to this very complicated situation but it seems like it is leaning more to just be a lack of confidence that all athletes have to battle through if they want to be the GOAT.
Last edited by a moderator:
she is being lauded for removing herself for "mental health issues" and helping bring mental health awareness to the forefront or whatever.....for having the (apparently now temporary) case of the "twisties"....
if she wants to come out and say, "hey little gymnast's that watch me, if you find yourself with the twisties, quit until they are gone so you don't hurt yourself".....thats fine....but does that really qualify as the serious "mental health issues" we are really trying to talk about/advocate for/bring to the forefront here....I don't know....maybe I'm being cold, callous, and insensitive....but she had a couple bad days at the office and it got in her head and then she came out and said I need to focus on my "mental health"....when maybe it just was the moment got too big for her....the promotion, pressure, and face of the Olympics is all part of the package....she will be cashing those endorsements checks with no mental health issues....and now when she wins gold on the beam, she will be lauded for pushing through her "mental health issues" and overcoming them and be a great "example" to all those with "mental health issues"....when really all she maybe did was lose her confidence for a while.....
the spin that is being put on this and the timing after she had a couple bad days at the office just doesn't feel right....
Last edited by a moderator:
IMO.....big difference between losing your confidence for awhile and having mental health issues.....
Which is why I really figured she wouldn't compete at all (if it was a true mental health issue and not just loss of confidence). The fact that she is competing now really diminishes the mental health take as a hero to the mental health community.
HellToupee
Footballguy
This doesn’t seem like enough time. I hope she wasn’t pushed along to make a reckless decision. It just feels wrong
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
There isn't anything left for her to prove/accomplish. Seems the US women's gymnastics org has been through enough with Nassar/Karoly's to be involved. There are a lot of other possibilities, just hope it was really just her decision. If she is still having issues with her orientation/balance it's a dumb to go on the beam-not courageous. Would be unfair to other gymnasts, regardless of nation, if judges give Biles any benefit of the doubt.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Nice finish by Simone.
Caveman33
Footballguy
I think loss of confidence is considered a mental health issue. Low self esteem leads to other mental health issues. In Simone's case, loss of confidence in her abilities after that bad jump may have exasperated other existing issues and caused a mental health crisis. Given a few days to work through it, she got her mind and confidence strong enough to win bronze.Gally said:
I can already see the girls huddled together for the daytime talk shows. In addition to the team silver, I think they all got an individual medal, at least 1 of whom was directly because Simone withdrew. And Simone demonstrated perseverance in coming back for bronze. It's a good PR ending for USA gymnastics.
it could also be that she just simply had some bad performances......it happens....there doesn't always have to be an excuse....sometimes you just stumble or fall cause you sucked that day....even the best have bad days....if you just had a bad day it's okay to say I made some mistakes....I over rotated or whatever.....you don't have to take it as far as saying "I have mental health issues"....and tossing around the words mental health "crisis" seems a little over the top here.....not sure she was ever in "crisis"....kind of doing a disservice to people that truly do have mental health issues and are in real crisis...
if you feel temporary loss of confidence in sports = "mental health issues".....I'm not sure what to say except you are falling for the spin she put on this and the narrative she is trying to sell.....just IMO
bigbottom
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Well, you referenced the “spin she is trying to put on this” and “the narrative she is trying to sell.” Here is a link to the transcript of the interview she gave after pulling out of the competition. She seems to be pretty straightforward about the situation and not lamenting a mental health crisis. She was also team-focused and fully supportive of her teammates.
https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021683296/in-her-words-what-simone-biles-said-after-her-withdrawal
Loss of confidence happens to every athlete at some point in their careers. That doesn't cause them to quit an event because they weren't as good as they they thought they should be. It's part of being an elite athlete (or actually any athlete) and it is part of what makes some elite and some not so much (how they handle the adversity of competition). Using this as an excuse to stop until you figure it out on your own shouldn't be tied to a "mental health crisis". That is something completely different and a serious issue for those that experience that type of thing.
This smells like a couple bad performances and then stopping to try and work through the confidence issues (nothing inherently wrong with that if it was needed in a sport that can be very dangerous). However, trying to tie it to a more critical issue of mental health is a bit disingenuous. Twisties or yips or whatever you may call it happens and if you are an elite athlete it's part of what you signed up for. It's far different than a true mental health crisis.
Its great she was able to get through it and get back out there. That shows great perseverance but she should not be praised for backing out because of the lack of confidence (that is what it appears to be after the return to competition). If she was truly having a "mental health crisis" she should not have been allowed to go back and compete.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I feel like there are a whole lot of people in this thread drawing conclusions about Biles based on nothing more than speculation. I'll repeat it again: We don't actually know what she's going through and the exact reason she pulled out of some events, nor do we know what led her to return for the beam. My position has been that it's none of our business, but that based on both her career and the traumas she's experienced she has more than earned the benefit of the doubt.
Anyway, I'm glad for her that she was able to come back and medal.
Anyway, I'm glad for her that she was able to come back and medal.
Last edited by a moderator:
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
The fact that she had to change her beam routine to change her dismount so that she didn't perform a mid-air twist says a lot. Not sure she could have done that in her other events while competing at a high level, and that quickly. She didn't quit, she was injured, evaluated and adjusted to accommodate.