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Simple Question on Tebow (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gcoast3
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FavreCo
Footballguy
Here's the deal. Do you want to sell tickets, make $ on merchandise and suck or do you want to win superbowls. The Broncos, the Panthers, the Eagles will not be winning any superbowls with their current QBs. Look at the winning SB QB's. It's either a supurb passer or a stellar D. None are like these guys. This is a passing league. When you get to the playoffs, you are facing the best. Guys like this get stomped on.
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Restricted
Footballguy
Other is the obvious winner. There should of been more choices such as "don't own and can't get", "Owned my college team multiple times" and "My wife has a poster of him on the wall and goes to bed early to stare at it" options. I've never seen such hate, last year sure, 1st rd pick and mechanics not deserving. This year, Broncos suck, Orton is no answer and even if, FA at the end. Brady Quinn, no. Gotta see what this boy can do.
shnikies
Footballguy
It's a new era. How big is the sample size to determine you can't win a championship with a 1000 yard rushing quarterback?
Hue G
Footballguy
Tebow is hardly a 1000 yard rusher, Vick has only rushed for 1000 yards once in his career and Tebow just isn't close to the runner Vick is no QB is. The era of QBs that can rush isn't new at all it's just very rarely been successful in the NFL but tried many times
Donsmith753
Footballguy
Newton could win a superbowl with a stellar D. Dilfer did.
Football Critic
Footballguy
People will dislike people for many reasons, but jealousy is always a main one.
Real question is "Why do people hate Tebow"?
Real question is "Why do people hate Tebow"?
pollardsvision
Footballguy
What is it that leads you to believe that Newton won't be a great passer one day?
FavreCo
Footballguy
I addressed that above. He will require a stellar D. Thus his only hope is that he will be the QB on a SB team that has a stellar D. I don't see great passing in Newton. I see defenses that haven't wised up to his play. You set the MLB on his ### shadowing him so he can't run. Then you actually cover the WR's. Many of these big plays are either thrown up for grabs (the steve smith one this past week where he had to jump about 5 feet in the air to get the poorly thrown pass) or totally blown coverage becasue the D was not in position (week 1 I beleive were smith is running 20 yards behind the D. Everyone, not named david carr, has some good throws, including Alex Smith.The same raves were coming in about Vince Young when he came out. Look at him now. Skip Bayless says he should be starting for the Eagles because he's a winner.
No, he was on some teams that won games while he was at QB. Huge difference.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
One of the things I love about football is the roots of the game are still there. Technically all the potential for rugby, single wing, wing-T, the flying wedge, the swinging gate, etc., they are all still there in the chromosomes of the game. And when a running QB shows up it appears again. The rules, the setup, the manner of the scrimmages, are all inherantly designed for a running QB. The issues are that the game has evolved past that and the players have become so huge and fast, and the passing game so maximized, that it is the rare player who will make a coach willing to sacrifice the passing game to any degree so the lack of such means they are typically unwilling to. And indeed a lot of fans don't like it either, they want to see star running backs and an exciting passing game. But the reality is that if there was a QB who could run and pass really, really well, and had a good stable of RB's who could gain yardage, that team would be unstoppable. Vick at his best - at his best, like vs WAS last year - was like that. Look at what Tebow did when he came in vs San Diego, the defense was running around with their heads cut off. Imagine if a coach really knew what to do with this kind of weapon. For instance what if you split out two of these QB's in the same backfield? The main problem as I see it is that QB's will get beat up in this modern day and age of huge, fast, hard hitting defenders. I get the feeling a Clark Shaughnessy or George Halas would have a better idea of what to do with a Vick or Tebow than a Reid or (for cryin' out loud) Fox. Basically there is a lost institutional knowledge affecting this whole thing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_ShaughnessyAlso for the record, as a Tiger fan I hated Tebow because he was a Gator that always stood in LSU's way, but also gained a begrudging respect.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
Have you even watched him play?He certainly has plenty of work to do. He's got to cut down on turnovers and get better in the red-zone, but for a 22 year old rookie, he's got the makings of a QB who can win alot of games with his arm.The fact that you even mention VY leads me to believe you haven't seen Newton play much. They can both run and they are both black, but their NFL similarities end there.VY won a bunch of games early, but he cleared 250 yards passing exactly once in those 2 years starting. He wasn't winning games with his arm.Newton is giving CAR chances to win games (against good teams) with his arm.I addressed that above. He will require a stellar D. Thus his only hope is that he will be the QB on a SB team that has a stellar D. I don't see great passing in Newton. I see defenses that haven't wised up to his play. You set the MLB on his ### shadowing him so he can't run. Then you actually cover the WR's. Many of these big plays are either thrown up for grabs (the steve smith one this past week where he had to jump about 5 feet in the air to get the poorly thrown pass) or totally blown coverage becasue the D was not in position (week 1 I beleive were smith is running 20 yards behind the D. Everyone, not named david carr, has some good throws, including Alex Smith.The same raves were coming in about Vince Young when he came out. Look at him now. Skip Bayless says he should be starting for the Eagles because he's a winner.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Cam Newton hasn't been a passer?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Newton hasn't looked to run first though - almost all of his runs have come while escpaing pressure, except for some of the redzone carries that were by design.I addressed that above. He will require a stellar D. Thus his only hope is that he will be the QB on a SB team that has a stellar D. I don't see great passing in Newton. I see defenses that haven't wised up to his play. You set the MLB on his ### shadowing him so he can't run. Then you actually cover the WR's. Many of these big plays are either thrown up for grabs (the steve smith one this past week where he had to jump about 5 feet in the air to get the poorly thrown pass) or totally blown coverage becasue the D was not in position (week 1 I beleive were smith is running 20 yards behind the D. Everyone, not named david carr, has some good throws, including Alex Smith.The same raves were coming in about Vince Young when he came out. Look at him now. Skip Bayless says he should be starting for the Eagles because he's a winner.
strong
Footballguy
fixed some of that for you. cam will benefit from a good D just like any other good quarterback would. he's not now, nor will he ever be, just a game manager. sure, he's got to grow, but his first five NFL games are better than any other rookie QB in the history of the NFL. let that sink in for you, a little.'FavreCo said:I addressed that above. He will require a stellar D. Thus his only hope is that he will be the QB on a SB team that has a stellar D. I don't see great passing in Newton. I see defenses that haven't wised up to his play. You set the MLB on his ### shadowing him so he can't run. Then you actually cover the WR's. Many of these big plays are either unbelievably athletic plays (the steve smith one this past week where cam was on the run, threw a dart as he was jumping off his wrong foot, and still got it to a man in single coverage) or totally blown coverage becasue the D was so confused by cam's poise, athleticism, rocket arm, and adonis features The same raves were coming in about Vince Young when he came out. Look at him now. Skip Bayless says he should be starting for the Eagles because he's a winner.
you sound like someone that will never change their mind on cam. i'm sorry. it sounds like you're going to spend the next several years hating on one of the most exciting and unique players to come along. that sucks for you.
the rest of us? enjoying the show.
Why choose merely one reason to hate Tebow when one can hold many simultaneously:
1. He has made his repugnant political views a centerpiece of his public persona
2. He is almost entirely lacking in NFL-caliber passing skills
3. He is an object of unprecedented media hype/overexposure (primarily as a consequence of #1) which, when considered in relation to his football talent, borders on absurd
4. Teb-oids who suddenly demand that John Fox "adapt the offense" to Tebow's unique "skills" were strangely silent in demanding that Fox do the same for Orton (rather than forcing Orton to play in a style that was obviously less effective than the one in which he demonstrably performed well last season).
1. He has made his repugnant political views a centerpiece of his public persona
2. He is almost entirely lacking in NFL-caliber passing skills
3. He is an object of unprecedented media hype/overexposure (primarily as a consequence of #1) which, when considered in relation to his football talent, borders on absurd
4. Teb-oids who suddenly demand that John Fox "adapt the offense" to Tebow's unique "skills" were strangely silent in demanding that Fox do the same for Orton (rather than forcing Orton to play in a style that was obviously less effective than the one in which he demonstrably performed well last season).
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
favreco is good for some 'gumpy old man' schtick, but it's not like his football evaluations are worth a hill of beans. trust me, you aren't going to get him to agree, just assume he's wrong and move on.'pollardsvision said:Have you even watched him play?He certainly has plenty of work to do. He's got to cut down on turnovers and get better in the red-zone, but for a 22 year old rookie, he's got the makings of a QB who can win alot of games with his arm.The fact that you even mention VY leads me to believe you haven't seen Newton play much. They can both run and they are both black, but their NFL similarities end there.VY won a bunch of games early, but he cleared 250 yards passing exactly once in those 2 years starting. He wasn't winning games with his arm.Newton is giving CAR chances to win games (against good teams) with his arm.'FavreCo said:I addressed that above. He will require a stellar D. Thus his only hope is that he will be the QB on a SB team that has a stellar D. I don't see great passing in Newton. I see defenses that haven't wised up to his play. You set the MLB on his ### shadowing him so he can't run. Then you actually cover the WR's. Many of these big plays are either thrown up for grabs (the steve smith one this past week where he had to jump about 5 feet in the air to get the poorly thrown pass) or totally blown coverage becasue the D was not in position (week 1 I beleive were smith is running 20 yards behind the D. Everyone, not named david carr, has some good throws, including Alex Smith.The same raves were coming in about Vince Young when he came out. Look at him now. Skip Bayless says he should be starting for the Eagles because he's a winner.'Donsmith753 said:
Deamon
Footballguy
Vick and Newton both in the top 11 in the league in Passing Yards.
footballnerd
Footballguy
I'm now all in in my leagues on Tebow, hope everyone is right
I am not sure there is one formula to win in the NFL. Vick proved he can win and the Eagle problems this year are hardly all on Vick. Tebow can win in the NFL, but Denver is no where near ready to be contend. With the right pieces in play, Tebow is capable of leading a team to a championship.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
This is always the silliest argument as to why someone in the news is disliked. By this standard all popular professional athletes would be hated because they all possess the exact set of circumstances that would create this supposed 'jealousy'. Money, fame, women, talent, etc. The more likely issue is that people who love Tebow really want everyone else to love him the same way. They wish everyone else could see what they see in their beloved football hero...they wish he would never be criticized because it hits so close to home. Its akin to a teenage girl's first crush.
There has been criticism of many young QBs over the years...harsh criticism. It was never met with such fury and distaste as it has been with Tebow fans. It really is embarrassing. He's a big boy and brings home a nice paycheck. He'll either succeed in spite of the pressure or fail in the face of it. This will happen regardless of your Tebow desktop background or the tears you shed over every tiny critique of his game.
For me it started with the media hype and Florida's success. Nothing more than hating the front runner. Lately it's been more he had the highest selling jersey and Bronco fans seem to want to run Orton out of town when Tebow has shown absolutely nothing in the NFL to justify it. It's gone above the normal fans on struggling teams always like the backup sentiment. Regardless, he has his chance to prove all of the haters wrong now.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Which of these were the 1987 Redskins? They were 18th in the league in yards against (6th in points against) and their two QBs were Doug Williams and Jay Schroeder. Or how about the 2007 Giants? They were seventh in yards against (good but certainly not "stellar") and only 17th in points against, and had Eli Manning at QB.The fact is that there's no single championship model. Fran Tarkenton was hardly a superb passer- he was a scrambler in pretty much exactly the same vein as the guys you claim can't win Super Bowls, but he came within a game of doing so three different times. Can't really say he got "stomped on" in the playoffs, can you?
The best way to win a title in a sport with a single-elimination playoff is to make the playoffs as often as possible and hope for the best when you get there. End of story.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
To be fair, much of the media attention also has to do with the fact that Tebow was arguably the most productive college football player of all time.
gandalas
Footballguy
You must be right...Career QB Rushing leaders:#3) Steve Young#6) John ElwayThere are 2 at least who seem to buck your idea.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I would like to hear that argument.
This is quite possibly the worst responsive I've ever seen on this board. Congrats!Last I checked, not only were those two guys superb passers, they were among the best passers to ever play the game. Tebow is not. At least yet.
Car = 4th in pass yardsPhil = 8th in pass yardsBoth are top 10 in Y/AEDITED TO ADD: Tebow (in a small sample size) had 8 Y/A last year... that would of been 5th last year among normal starters. His yards per game would of equaled to 13th over a 16 game schedule.
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chinawildman
Footballguy
My observations after rewatching tebow's games last year:
1) His throwing motion isn't pretty, and his delivery is slow. But he gets good velocity on the ball and is surprisingly accurate.
2) His completion percentage is bad, but when he's asked to throw downfield, he rarely dumps off and more often than not goes for it and has a decent deep ball. Lloyd definitely makes him better than he looks due to his ability to come down with the ball in traffic.
3) Alot of his points will come from screens, broken plays, and rushing yards/TDs, which isn't a bad thing.
4) He seems to start slow, and feeds off of chaos in the later stages of the game. I would definitely consider him a "feel" player, which again is not a bad thing.
5) He's not fast, but fast enough and strong enough to break tackles from DBs. Won't get explosive plays like vick, but will get his 50 yds rushing a game, which is basically a bonus TD.
Personally I was pretty sick of the media's focus on Tebow. My wife, who has no interest in football, was even sick of hearing about him (Although she thought his name was Ted Tooey). But all that aside, if you have no problems with Vick carrying you to championship, then Tebow shouldn't even be an issue in this department.
1) His throwing motion isn't pretty, and his delivery is slow. But he gets good velocity on the ball and is surprisingly accurate.
2) His completion percentage is bad, but when he's asked to throw downfield, he rarely dumps off and more often than not goes for it and has a decent deep ball. Lloyd definitely makes him better than he looks due to his ability to come down with the ball in traffic.
3) Alot of his points will come from screens, broken plays, and rushing yards/TDs, which isn't a bad thing.
4) He seems to start slow, and feeds off of chaos in the later stages of the game. I would definitely consider him a "feel" player, which again is not a bad thing.
5) He's not fast, but fast enough and strong enough to break tackles from DBs. Won't get explosive plays like vick, but will get his 50 yds rushing a game, which is basically a bonus TD.
Personally I was pretty sick of the media's focus on Tebow. My wife, who has no interest in football, was even sick of hearing about him (Although she thought his name was Ted Tooey). But all that aside, if you have no problems with Vick carrying you to championship, then Tebow shouldn't even be an issue in this department.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
I'm no particular fan of Tebow's, but you have to admit that those who genuinely dislike him are unwilling to even acknowledge the possibilities for him as a fantasy QB. You're right that many young QB's have received harsh criticism, but it's usually about their game. With Tebow though (and I know I'm making a sweeping generalization) it seems to be more about HIM. There seem to be people on both sides supporters and haters that can't fathom he will succeed/fail because of who he is and what his beliefs are as a human being. For the fringe idiots, it runs deeper than his attributes and shortcomings as a QB.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
I'm sure there are athose on the fringe that hate him for the pro-life super bowl thing or his religious views in general. However, if it was simply religious bias, then wouldn't Kurt Warner have experienced the same level of hate? This is not to mention that a majority of NFL players are christian. In reality, I think celebrities who are front and center in the media force the general population to take a side with regard to their feelings about that person. Many will love or hate. Reggie Bush went through it and still does, Aaron Rodgers was never going to be Brett Favre, Cam Newton was overrated and a maligned for the payoff controversy...and LeBron,Kobe,Vick,ARod,Manny,Favre...on and on. Heck, to bring this even closer to the situation, I don't see anyone worrying about the immense hate for Kyle Orton at Mile High every Sunday. Reason: There's a distinct lack of maniacal Orton fans to cry foul about it. I guess Tebow-like paranoia would make me assume that people have a natural bias against bearded QB's?
At the end of the day, it is the overwhelming backlash from Tebow fans to valid crtiques that ultimately fan the hatred. In other words, the hatred is not inordinate, it's the love that's kinda creepy.
Shane Falco
Footballguy
Other
he isn't very good and he is lauded like he is good (by the media but mostly by HIS fans).
college is not the NFL
he isn't very good and he is lauded like he is good (by the media but mostly by HIS fans).
college is not the NFL
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
Nope, still black. If you can't see it, you're one of the fringe people I was talking about. Seeing Tebow succeed, for you, would be a painful experience. Being proven wrong by all of the cooky Tebow fanatics.I'm sure there are athose on the fringe that hate him for the pro-life super bowl thing or his religious views in general. However, if it was simply religious bias, then wouldn't Kurt Warner have experienced the same level of hate? This is not to mention that a majority of NFL players are christian. In reality, I think celebrities who are front and center in the media force the general population to take a side with regard to their feelings about that person. Many will love or hate. Reggie Bush went through it and still does, Aaron Rodgers was never going to be Brett Favre, Cam Newton was overrated and a maligned for the payoff controversy...and LeBron,Kobe,Vick,ARod,Manny,Favre...on and on. Heck, to bring this even closer to the situation, I don't see anyone worrying about the immense hate for Kyle Orton at Mile High every Sunday. Reason: There's a distinct lack of maniacal Orton fans to cry foul about it. I guess Tebow-like paranoia would make me assume that people have a natural bias against bearded QB's?
At the end of the day, it is the overwhelming backlash from Tebow fans to valid crtiques that ultimately fan the hatred. In other words, the hatred is not inordinate, it's the love that's kinda creepy.
AmosMoses
Footballguy
He has a 8.3 ypa right now, which is higher than River and Brees. That's pretty solid for a rookie.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Bingo.Look at this very thread. Someone declared that he arguably was the most productive QB in the history of college football, which is ridiculous considering he never even led Florida to a single undefeated season, and he was the starting QB for only one BCS champion- a team that in retrospect clearly should not have been the champion (that was the year that Boise State went undefeated and trounced Alabama in the Sugar Bowl). And then you have the jersey sales and the chants calling for him in Denver based on basically nothing.I'm sure there are athose on the fringe that hate him for the pro-life super bowl thing or his religious views in general. However, if it was simply religious bias, then wouldn't Kurt Warner have experienced the same level of hate? This is not to mention that a majority of NFL players are christian. In reality, I think celebrities who are front and center in the media force the general population to take a side with regard to their feelings about that person. Many will love or hate. Reggie Bush went through it and still does, Aaron Rodgers was never going to be Brett Favre, Cam Newton was overrated and a maligned for the payoff controversy...and LeBron,Kobe,Vick,ARod,Manny,Favre...on and on. Heck, to bring this even closer to the situation, I don't see anyone worrying about the immense hate for Kyle Orton at Mile High every Sunday. Reason: There's a distinct lack of maniacal Orton fans to cry foul about it. I guess Tebow-like paranoia would make me assume that people have a natural bias against bearded QB's?
At the end of the day, it is the overwhelming backlash from Tebow fans to valid crtiques that ultimately fan the hatred. In other words, the hatred is not inordinate, it's the love that's kinda creepy.
People don't hate Tebow, or at least I don't think they do. I hope they don't, since he seems like a great guy. They hate constant over the top hype and unapologetic fanboys. Always have, always will. It's not just football or even sports. It happens in the entertainment industy, politics, basically any field in the public eye. If you hype and adoration greatly exceeds your accomplishments you're gonna get backlash.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
One, I'm actually in the tiny sliver of football fans that really have no up or down feeling for Tebow. Second, I will admit to having him in a dynasty league and will gladly be starting him after the bye, so I'm actually hoping he tears it up fantasy-wise. Lastly, this is probably the first time I've posted on here about Timmy at all, so I'm definitely not in this 'fringe' you speak of. Of course with Tebow fans, it's either you're with us or against us I guess.meh...Agree to disagree though.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
to answer you'd have to know (A) what Tebow's belief is and (B) what your own belief is
few people know A or B
few people know A or B
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Funny (odd), now that you mention it in terms of all the comparisons made out there about Tebow Tarkenton may be the best. Southern, scrambler, runner, iffy passer but capable of huge plays, a gamer, a leader, master of comebacks. And now he has the conservative coach (Fox/Grant) who has no clue how to use him to his max advantage to boot.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Dave is spot on. The creepy Tebow lovers are over the top. How many NFL players have a Christian fanbase buy billboard ads to push you into the starting lineup? This does not happen to your standard NFL player.The "Tebow Thing" was never going to go away. Broncos management should have realized this before week 1 and traded Tebow. This is a team and a fanbase that is divided by one of the most polarizing NFL players in history.I'm sure there are athose on the fringe that hate him for the pro-life super bowl thing or his religious views in general. However, if it was simply religious bias, then wouldn't Kurt Warner have experienced the same level of hate? This is not to mention that a majority of NFL players are christian. In reality, I think celebrities who are front and center in the media force the general population to take a side with regard to their feelings about that person. Many will love or hate. Reggie Bush went through it and still does, Aaron Rodgers was never going to be Brett Favre, Cam Newton was overrated and a maligned for the payoff controversy...and LeBron,Kobe,Vick,ARod,Manny,Favre...on and on. Heck, to bring this even closer to the situation, I don't see anyone worrying about the immense hate for Kyle Orton at Mile High every Sunday. Reason: There's a distinct lack of maniacal Orton fans to cry foul about it. I guess Tebow-like paranoia would make me assume that people have a natural bias against bearded QB's?
At the end of the day, it is the overwhelming backlash from Tebow fans to valid crtiques that ultimately fan the hatred. In other words, the hatred is not inordinate, it's the love that's kinda creepy.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
Oh, I don't disagree with you. Like I said, I'd seen and heard from crazies on both sides of the Tebow issue. I'm only saying it's not JUST the Tebow fanatics driving this bus.Dave is spot on. The creepy Tebow lovers are over the top. How many NFL players have a Christian fanbase buy billboard ads to push you into the starting lineup? This does not happen to your standard NFL player.The "Tebow Thing" was never going to go away. Broncos management should have realized this before week 1 and traded Tebow. This is a team and a fanbase that is divided by one of the most polarizing NFL players in history.I'm sure there are athose on the fringe that hate him for the pro-life super bowl thing or his religious views in general. However, if it was simply religious bias, then wouldn't Kurt Warner have experienced the same level of hate? This is not to mention that a majority of NFL players are christian. In reality, I think celebrities who are front and center in the media force the general population to take a side with regard to their feelings about that person. Many will love or hate. Reggie Bush went through it and still does, Aaron Rodgers was never going to be Brett Favre, Cam Newton was overrated and a maligned for the payoff controversy...and LeBron,Kobe,Vick,ARod,Manny,Favre...on and on. Heck, to bring this even closer to the situation, I don't see anyone worrying about the immense hate for Kyle Orton at Mile High every Sunday. Reason: There's a distinct lack of maniacal Orton fans to cry foul about it. I guess Tebow-like paranoia would make me assume that people have a natural bias against bearded QB's?
At the end of the day, it is the overwhelming backlash from Tebow fans to valid crtiques that ultimately fan the hatred. In other words, the hatred is not inordinate, it's the love that's kinda creepy.
FavreCo
Footballguy
I would wait for one of these 3 to win a superbowl so you could bump this thread but you'll be dead by then.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Loved this writeup of Tebow.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
It is impossible to talk normally when your smile is that big.
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