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Sir Peyton Williams Manning (1 Viewer)
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Jimmy James
Footballguy
John Madden, is that you? I'm glad to see you have discovered the Internet in your retirement.
Manning at once revealed his talent and serious flaws in his own team tonight. He and that offense deserve better from the defense, and I hope he gets it. I'm not sure I understand the extreme fawning, though. This is not the best competition, and his team very nearly lost.
Manning at once revealed his talent and serious flaws in his own team tonight. He and that offense deserve better from the defense, and I hope he gets it. I'm not sure I understand the extreme fawning, though. This is not the best competition, and his team very nearly lost.
It's the perfect time for extreme fawning
His team's defense sucks so bad and he just continues to carry them to wins. Two weeks, two comebacks. It's amazing because the guy is so in control of the game, if he has the ball at the end of the game and a chance to win it, spy cameras aside, he usually does. He's just a joy to watch and this game highlighted why he's so great.
I do think that sometimes Peyton Manning is a little bit underappreciated. I think that when we're given the benefit of hindsight, we'll tell our kids one day that we all got to see one of the top three QBs of all time in action. There aren't a whole lot of players in the game today that we'll be able to make that claim about someday. Randy Moss, Tony Gonzalez, and Derrick Brooks, for sure. I'd argue for Champ Bailey, but my biases on that subject are well documented. Brian Dawkins probably makes it, but I think that the competition is a lot thinner at safety. Walter Jones? Kevin Mawae?
A lot of people will quickly bring up Brady as his equal or superior, but I don't think history will remember it that way. Brady's spot in Canton is secure, but given the benefit of hindsight, whenever anyone talks about the top 5 QBs of all time they mention names like Unitas (10 pro bowls, 5 All Pros), Young (7/3), and Montana (8/3). I think history will remember Manning's 3 regular-season MVPs a lot more fondly than Brady's 2 SB MVPs and 1 regular season MVP. Sure, Brady had that one dominant season... but Manning's best year was significantly better than Brady's in pretty much every way. Brady's still young enough that he'll have a shot to change all of this, but as it stands, I think Manning goes down as the better QB.
A lot of people will quickly bring up Brady as his equal or superior, but I don't think history will remember it that way. Brady's spot in Canton is secure, but given the benefit of hindsight, whenever anyone talks about the top 5 QBs of all time they mention names like Unitas (10 pro bowls, 5 All Pros), Young (7/3), and Montana (8/3). I think history will remember Manning's 3 regular-season MVPs a lot more fondly than Brady's 2 SB MVPs and 1 regular season MVP. Sure, Brady had that one dominant season... but Manning's best year was significantly better than Brady's in pretty much every way. Brady's still young enough that he'll have a shot to change all of this, but as it stands, I think Manning goes down as the better QB.
switz
Footballguy
The Colts had the ball for less than 25% of the time, which had nothing to do with Manning, and everything to do with their defense. Yet, in only that little time, Manning led his team to nearly 30 points. And a 4th quarter comeback to win.People drooled all over Brady for coming back against Buffalo two weeks ago. Yet Mannings performance last night was far more impressive. Plenty of reason for fawning.
Ok, don't want to hijack or get caught up in a long discussion with SSOG, but NOBODY talks about Young when discussing the top 5 QB's of all time.
drfeelgood
Footballguy
I think P. Manning is one of the best QBs, if not the best, to ever play the game.
shader
Footballguy
The best part about Peyton is when the playoffs start, and he falls apart!
He's the "Atlanta Braves" of football. A bunch of playoff collapses, and one lucky ring.
If his defense wasn't great that year, he never would have won the ring because he wasn't very good in that post-season.
He's the "Atlanta Braves" of football. A bunch of playoff collapses, and one lucky ring.
If his defense wasn't great that year, he never would have won the ring because he wasn't very good in that post-season.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
If it makes you feel better, I have never fawned over Brady.Manning could have taken care of his defense a little better by stretching out drives. It's not really his job, but he has the talent to be able to do it and I'm sure they could have used the assist.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
good lord
RUSF18
Footballguy
It's like the guys at ESPN have a bet going to see how deep into a guy's career can they come up with a nickname and still get it to stick.Unless I've just been asleep at all the right times of his career.
Sammy Traveller
Footballguy
Tanner9919
Footballguy
guy can't win playoff games...you cannot consider a person with a losing post-season record as being on the same level as Starr, Bradshaw, Brady or even Roethlisberger when considering Manning's post-season failures.Say what you want about Big Ben, he has one of the best post-season records of all-time. won 2 SB's.
this article describes it beautifully:
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Artic...orant_simp.html
1999
The Indy defense surrendered 20.8 PPG in the regular season. The Indy offense averaged 26.4 PPG. Manning posted a regular-season passer rating of 90.7.
The Colts bowed out of the playoffs with a 19-16 loss to Tennessee. Manning posted a passer rating of 60.9 – his worst game of the season.
2000
The Indy defense surrendered 20.4 PPG in the regular season. The Indy offense averaged 26.8 PPG. Manning posted a regular-season passer rating of 94.7.
The Colts bowed out of the playoffs with a 23-17 overtime loss to Miami. Manning posted a passer rating of 82.0 – the best performance of his career in a playoff loss, but fifth worst of the season.
2002
The Indy defense surrendered 19.6 PPG in the regular season. The Indy offense scored 21.8 PPG. Manning posted a regular-season passer rating of 88.8.
The Colts bowed out of the playoffs with a 41-0 loss to the New York Jets. Manning posted a passer rating of 31.2 – the single worst game of his career.
2003
The Indy defense surrendered 21.0 PPG in the regular season. The Indy offense scored 27.9 PPG. Manning posted a regular-season passer rating of 99.0.
The Colts bowed out of the playoffs with a 24-14 loss to New England. Manning posted a passer rating of 35.5 – his worst game of the season and third worst of his career.
2004
The Indy defense surrendered 21.9 PPG in the regular season. The Indy offense scored 32.6 PPG. Manning posted an NFL-record regular-season passer rating of 121.1.
The Colts bowed out of the playoffs with a 20-3 loss to the New England. Manning posted a passer rating of 69.3 – his worst game of the season.
***
A simple look at the Cold, Hard Football Facts makes clear that Manning and the offense, and not the Colts defense, is the source of Indy’s playoff failures.
• In four of five playoff losses, the Indy defense has played very well compared with its regular-season performances
• In four of five playoff losses, Manning played his single worst game of the season
• In all five playoff losses, the Indy offense was held below its regular-season scoring average
• Only once in five playoff losses did the Indy defense surrender more than 24 points
• Only once in five playoff losses did Manning post a passer rating of better than 70.0
• In its five playoff seasons, the Indy defense has surrendered an average 20.7 PPG
• In its five playoff losses, the Indy defense has surrendered an average of 25.4 PPG (with 41 scored in a single game)
• In its five playoff seasons, the Indy offense has averaged 27.1 PPG
• In its five playoff losses, the Indy offense has averaged a woeful 10.0 PPG (and just 5.7 PPG in the last three seasons)
The most damning indictment is this: If the Indy offense had merely replicated its regular-season scoring average in its five playoff losses, the Colts would be 4-1 in those five games.
So riddle us this, friends of the Cold, Hard Football Facts: Is the Indy defense the problem, or is it Peyton Manning?
switz
Footballguy
Defense isn't just about points allowed, it's also about getting the other offense OFF the field, so that the offense has a shot at scoring. As we saw last night, the Colts defense allowed Miami to control the clock, practically for 75% of the game. The fact Manning could put up nearly 30 points in only 15 minutes is amazing.Now in the playoffs, Manning has typically faced far tougher defenses than Miami, and so only having 15 minutes of possession would make it much harder to score too many points.That Cold Hard Facts article far oversimplifies things. Has Manning had some bad games? Sure, but that was because he had to force plays so as to make something happen since the D couldn't stop the other team.Brady, Roethlisberger, etc. have had horrible performances but their defense won the games for them. Manning has never had that luxury.Any objective person can see the difference there.
cst2006
Footballguy
Love all the shots taken at Brady in here.. Admittedly bias because of my team loyalty, but I can recognize that Peyton is one of the best to play the game also, but there's no way you can compare the two as far as postseason performance is concerned. Tom Brady is 14-3 in the postseason, I could run off all the incredible games and comebacks he was responsible for, but its best you just take a look for yourself:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...00_playoffs.htm
Also not sure how anyone could say Peyton's comeback last night was more impressive than Brady's against the Bills, guy is in his first live game action in a year and a half and orchestrates that kind of comeback against a division rival, slightly more impressive in my book..
djcolts
Footballguy
How about winning drive of 80 yards vs. 30 yards for starters? Road game vs. Home game? Colts were missing their #2 WR while the Pats were not? I hate Brady/Manning arguments in general - but the argument this time can be made that Manning's comeback yesterday was at least as impressive as Brady's last week.
switz
Footballguy
Tom Brady won because the defense held the opponent down in most of those games. The average opponents score was 18 points, in 6 of the 17 games opponents were held to 14 points or less. In only 4 games did the opponent score more than 21 points.On the other hand, Indy's defense has allowed an average of 22 points per game by the opponent. Only 3 out of 15 times did they hold the opponent under 14 points, and in 8 of the game the opponent scored over 21 points.
They've each thrown 1.5 TDs per playoff game, but Manning has thrown slightly more INTs, but he's also thrown more passes per game. They are nearly identical in completion percentage, Brady having a 1% edge, though Manning threw downfield more averaging a full yard per attempt more than Brady.
W-L record doesn't tell the whole story.
SuperGreen
Footballguy
i used to hate him, being the golden boy and all but over time i have grown to appreciate what a stud he is. true professional.
plus he films a mean commercial.
plus he films a mean commercial.
Plenty of people talk about Young when discussing the top 5 QBs of all time (I can provide links, if you want). And the ones that don't are making a HUGE oversight. His aggregate numbers are low because he sat on the bench for a huge chunk of his career, but he was without question the single most dominant QB in NFL history when he was starting. Absurdly dominant. I think he has a very strong case for #1 overall. If you gave me 5 years of any QB in his prime in NFL history, I'd take Young without hesitating... and I'm an Elway homer.zed2283 said:
thekidd2009
Footballguy
One of the dumbest arguments i've heard in awhile. You're comparing Terry ####### Bradshaw and Ben Roethelisberger to Peyton Manning? Really? Because of playoff records. Remember, there are 11 on defense and 11 on offense and football is the ultimate team sport. Big Ben really tore it up in that first superbowl win. Haha...he got a ring for that but his team carried his ### for that one. The whole "he has more rings" argument is stupid because you don't take into account the difference between the two teams. Terry Bradshaw was not a very good quarterback. He seemed to play well in the "big" games but his defense carried him. The difference between Manning and the two steelers qb's is that Manning carried his team to a championship while the defense carried those other two qb's.Tanner9919 said:
thekidd2009
Footballguy
Young was a great QB, but a system QB nonetheless. Guy couldn't hack in Tampa and found a great fit in the west coast offense. Not trying to take anything away from him but Young was lucky to get into Walsh's system.
Borat
Footballguy
It's a tribute to Brady that he's brought up every time Manning is brought up (and likewise when it's the other way around), but it gets tiresome.
Yet I don't hear people downgrading Montana for being a system QB (despite the fact that he was even MORE of a system QB than Young- by the time Young was running the WCO it was a staple of every NFL offense in the league, whereas Montana was the only guy running it for the majority of his career). Also, the "couldn't hack it in TB" comment is ludicrous. He played two seasons in TB. Plenty of QBs have been bad in their first two seasons as a starter, especially when those first two seasons were for a terrible team.I don't care what "system" he played in... Steve Young was the most dominant QB to ever play the game.
switz
Footballguy
You would be inaccurate. If you eliminate defensive TDs (7), the Pats offense averaged 22.3 points per game. Meanwhile the Indy defense has never scored a TD in the playoffs during Manning's career. Manning's offenses have scored 22.8 points per game during that time.
I'm absolutely flabbergasted by the people who still try to paint Manning as a loser. Most of them are the same people that paint Ray Lewis and Farve as winners despite having the same number of rings. The dude had to toss the stretch play last year because of his knee and still performed very well. Yet he is still a "loser" while Bret Farve would be considered a "warrior" for doing that. The guy deserves more respect than he gets.
The sad thing is that the Colts will probably put up a good amount of wins and make an early exit in playoffs like last year. The Colts don't look that good this year and will probably lose to a better team in the playoffs; Manning, of course, will get all of the blame. People forget that it takes a team to win and Manning is only one part of the equation.
The sad thing is that the Colts will probably put up a good amount of wins and make an early exit in playoffs like last year. The Colts don't look that good this year and will probably lose to a better team in the playoffs; Manning, of course, will get all of the blame. People forget that it takes a team to win and Manning is only one part of the equation.
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parrot
Footballguy
My bad, solid point.
azgroover
Footballguy
FWIW, Montana didn't disappoint in KC at the end of his career too.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
If someone wants to call Manning the best QB ever, I'd have no problem with that.
One of the things about him and his offenses that has always amazed me was his ability to put together a monster drive to end the game (with a lead). For all his ability to come up with the quick score, I've always been more impressed that if you give him a lead, the ball, and 6 minutes left in the game, there's a good chance you'll never see the ball again.
One thing I feel is a certainty, if you look at all of the great offenses ever and hypothetically sub in an average QB, the Manning era Colts would see the biggest drop off.
Btw, imo, we're looking at 2 of the 3 greatest QBs of all-time right now (along with Elway), in Manning and Brady.
One of the things about him and his offenses that has always amazed me was his ability to put together a monster drive to end the game (with a lead). For all his ability to come up with the quick score, I've always been more impressed that if you give him a lead, the ball, and 6 minutes left in the game, there's a good chance you'll never see the ball again.
One thing I feel is a certainty, if you look at all of the great offenses ever and hypothetically sub in an average QB, the Manning era Colts would see the biggest drop off.
Btw, imo, we're looking at 2 of the 3 greatest QBs of all-time right now (along with Elway), in Manning and Brady.
This is probably the most rediculous post I have ever seen on this website. You have got to be kidding right?
Jimmy James
Footballguy
We're talking about knighting the guy, per the thread title. He showed no regard for his defense last night and very nearly paid the price with a defeat. I understand my criticism is pretty extraordinary, but so is the praise that is being heaped on him here.
ETA: Let's not forget here that Manning has an extraordinary role in terms of play calling on this offense. Would we criticize an offensive coordinator for a strategy that nearly led to defeat because his team held the ball for an absurdly low amount of time? Yes. Manning de facto holds much of the role of an offensive coordinator.
ETA: Let's not forget here that Manning has an extraordinary role in terms of play calling on this offense. Would we criticize an offensive coordinator for a strategy that nearly led to defeat because his team held the ball for an absurdly low amount of time? Yes. Manning de facto holds much of the role of an offensive coordinator.
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TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
Manning is money when it comes filming commercials. Brady is money when it comes to dating super models.
switz
Footballguy
LOL! No, we'd praise an OC whose game plan provided quick strikes, knowing that the opponent played a ball control offense, and that it wasn't likely for the Colts to have many possessions. Either way, Manning only calls plays at the line, he doesn't formulate the game plan. I don't think you really know what you are talking about here.
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
I agree 100% with Switz. Manning has the option of changing the play at the LOS, he doesn't create the game plan. As far as Jimmy James' remark "he showed no regard for his defense", is borderline a moronic statement. Not calling the poster a moron, but it's ridiculous to think that way.
parrot
Footballguy
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
Considering the Bills are known for monumental collapses when they have the game won, it isn't all that impressive. (See MNF game against Dallas). And Brady didn't look good until the last 2 drives. You can credit him for that all you want. But if you watched the game from beginning to end, I don't think many people would drool over it. The Bills gave that one away, he finally started to beat the Cover 2 and they never switched it up or got any pressure on him. I don't think he did anything special. And he followed that week up with the one against the Jets. But I figured people (especially the media) would make him out to be a god for coming back against the Bills.
parrot
Footballguy
Peyton definitely had some playoff bumps earlier in his career, and some that can't be put on his defense. In the 02 4 pick debacle against the Pats he got picked on their first two drives, including a pick from the NE 5. That said, he put any questions I had to rest in the 06 AFCCG against the Pats. That game looked over at halftime, but Peyton put that team on his back in the second half.
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DAMAC3
Footballguy
Obviously, I am a HUGE Peyton fan being a Colts fan. I've watched just about every game of his career on TV or in person. The guy is amazing and should definately be in the discussion at least with the greatest ever. There is no suger-coating some of his playoff performances, though. He has been very average to bad in several of his playoff games. The 2004 AFC championship game in NE was one of the worst. Honestly, I wouldn't call any of his playoff performances since then a choke (except for the first half of the 2006 AFC Championship game). The Steelers put ridiculous pressure on him in 2005, and the o-line did not do their job (which Peyton has been blasted for saying). The Baltimore defense was so stout in the 2006 divisional game (which the Colts won). And he didn't play terrible in either of the losses to the Chargers the last two year. Our defense couldn't stop anything the Chargers were doing in those games.
The playoff losses the last four years have been a COLTS problem, not just a Manning problem. Although, Peyton hasn't done what he did last Monday night (and so many other times in big REGULAR season games) and carry his team to a victory (other than the second half of the 2006 AFC Championship game). There is definately room for major post-season improvement.
The playoff losses the last four years have been a COLTS problem, not just a Manning problem. Although, Peyton hasn't done what he did last Monday night (and so many other times in big REGULAR season games) and carry his team to a victory (other than the second half of the 2006 AFC Championship game). There is definately room for major post-season improvement.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It is scary how often you and I think alike sometimes. I would also take Young in that scenario.
Oh. I must have imagined that INT return for a TD in their Super Bowl win.
