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Softball Rant (1 Viewer)

Cjw_55106

Cjw_55106

Footballguy
I coach my daughter’s 12u fastpitch softball team. We had our state tournament this past weekend. 21 teams in our tier and I “know” we can’t beat 3-4 of the teams. I say this because we were 0-6 or 0-7 against them this year combined and none of them had more than a couple losses on the season. We are a decent, but not great team.

We had a great Saturday, going 3-0. We were back Sunday morning to play one of the teams mentioned (who happen to be the host for the tournament). We were down 11-7 in the last inning and had the bases loaded with two outs. Our hitter hit a hard ground ball that ended up going through the legs of the shortstop and hitting the runner going to third. The other team is complaining that the runner is out, which I know from recent experience is not the rule. The umpire calls the runner out, saying the ball hit her. Game over. I was coaching first and I came down to discuss the issue. By nature, I’m not much of a yeller. I don’t yell at the girls and rarely argue with the umpires.

The umpire tells me she made the call and cannot change it. I told she certainly can change it as it isn’t a judgment call. She simply doesn’t know the rule. I tell her exactly how the rule reads and tell her we don’t need to argue, I’ll show her in the rule book. While I’m getting the book the tournament director comes out and the two discuss the issue.  

At this point, I’ll mention what the rule says. I don’t carry the book around, so this is not verbatim: The runner is not out if a batted ball travels past a fielder, other than the pitcher and is struck with the ball so long as no fielder has a chance to make a play.

It’s also debatable if the shortstop touched the ball, which would make all of this moot.

I return to the field and the director meets me halfway saying the call has been made, she doesn’t need to see the book. She said in the umpire’s judgment, the SS could have made a play had the ball not hit the runner. At this point, I am absolutely livid. I ask her how the SS could make a play on a ball that went through her legs and is in left field (as it would have been had it not hit the runner)? The only thing she would say over in over is that it’s her judgment.  :rant:

 
Are you sure that's the rule? Is it different in softball than baseball? In baseball, I know you're out if you get hit by a batted a ball in the field of play.

 
Awful situation. I was actually going to make fun of you because it was a girls softball question, but after reading it, it reminded me so much of a time where my son's team got royally screwed. Not much you can do. In my situation I at least calmed down by saying to myself this ref had reffed several of my sons games over the years and he was always a pretty fair dude. He made a mistake, didn't understand the rules, which change based on grade level, and that was that. This being a tourney, you may have never seen the umps before, so maybe that doesnt help. 

That is one of those moments that you simply wont forget as an athlete. So maybe try and associate all of the really good plays from the day prior with it and perhaps those memories, being tied to bad call, wont be forgotten either.

 
If it makes you feel any better, down by 4 with two outs to a team you "know" you can't beat, you're probably losing the game either way.  It's not like she botched the call on a game-winning dong.  

 
Sounds like you were screwed.  If you coach or play baseball/softball long enough it is going to happen.  Not much you can do about it but provide a good example for the kids.

 
IF you care enough to eliminate this in the future. Carry a rule book, mount a GOPRO to the dugout to capture the whole field (lens is surprisingly wide angle). Can stream/rewind footage on phone. 

Takes about 30 seconds to set up at start of game, and has added bonus of having game footage to review with kids post game. 

A buddy did it here in town at a tourney after getting screwed over by a "local favorite" team who had "cousins" heavily embedded into the ump ranks. It took one disputed call and showing the ump he was wrong, then actually led to a game being called pretty cleanly and them upsetting this team that hadn't lost in 2-3 years. 

 
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Satan Vows to Make a Comeback

By Philip Wedge

Yeah, they're sending me down to the lowest

of the low, some bush-league team, the Pandas.

I tell you it's a monopoly, man.

Isn't there some law against owning all

the teams? God is sure off base this time.

What’s the point of having a World Series

if you're set up to lose from the outset?

We sure had them on the ropes though, didn't

we? Those Angels couldn't do it by themselves,

so God tells Christ to warm up in the pen.

Was that supposed to scare us or what? When

Belial, that great Sultan of Sloth,

came up-and the bases full-he slugged that

little old sphere clean out of the ballpark

to tie the game. And God lets Michael throw

one more pitch to Big Mammon the Cannon

and they're down by one with me up next. God

couldn't stand to be down by two in His

ballpark, especially not in the top

of the Ninth, my favorite number. So

he calls up the Super Star Himself to

pitch to me, saying, “J.C. can outshine

even Lucifer. “ I mean, where does He

get off saying that? What a spectacle

Christ made of Himself too. Only He would

need a Fiery Chariot instead

of just jogging in from the bullpen.

Why, those wheels of fire singed half the infield.

And then that s.o.G. sends the players

to the dugout and says He can do it

all Himself. Who does He think He is? God?

When I hit the first pitch downtown, what does

John Milton shout? Foul ball! If ever we

needed proof that umpires are blind as bats,

that was it. And of course I protested,

but God doesn't allow replays to change

a judgment call. The game must remain pure.

Naturally, I was really mad as Hell,

so when Christ tries to throw his thunderbolt

screwgie under my chin and I eat dust,

I have to charge the mound myself and kick

some dirt in His face. So His Immaculate

Self got soiled, so what? Milton kicks me out

of the game for that and we lose it all,

not only the Series but we're out of

the League for good, no comeback, no nothing.

God thinks He has us down for good. Well, I've

got news for Him-the game's not over yet.

I'm talking Unions, man. All my boys

are behind me on this one; the system's

got to go. Once we get Adam and his

lot on our side, we've got God licked for sure.

The Union won't stand for less than equal

shares all round. Man, I'm talking Equity.

 
I don't know whether the rule is right or wrong, but will say nothing is more annoying to me than an ump/ref sticking with a call they know is incorrect and has been proven incorrect, just because they made it in the heat of the moment. People make mistakes, if you can undo it and make things right then do it. 

 
Thsts not how I remember the rules. Okay, let's go over the ground rules. You can't leave first until you chug a beer. Any girl scoring has to chug a beer. You have to chug a beer at the top of all odd-numbered innings. Oh, and the fourth inning is the beer inning.
 

 
bigmarc27 said:
I don't know whether the rule is right or wrong, but will say nothing is more annoying to me than an ump/ref sticking with a call they know is incorrect and has been proven incorrect, just because they made it in the heat of the moment. People make mistakes, if you can undo it and make things right then do it. 
Click to expand...
This is what angered me the most. She simply didn't care about getting the call right, as long as she didn't have to admit she was in the wrong. 

For those asking, yes, I know for sure this is the rule. 

 
Originally I thought the OP was ocrrect cause that's how I always remembered it being called.  However according to this website , it could go either way:

"The runner is out when hit by a batted ball before it passes an infielder. (Rule 5.09(f) and 7.08(f) and 7.09(k)). If it passes one infielder and another fielder who is on the outfield side of the basepath had a possible play on the ball, the runner could still be called out. This is a judgment by the umpire. "

Take it for what it is worth...

 
Sorry to hear that.  There's not much more frustrating than having a season end on a bad call.

That's one of the things I like about the 15s set up at Babe Ruth.  With two umps on the field, they have the benefit of being able to talk to each other, giving them the out of not having to be wrong, but allow another person's impartial perspective.  I only saw one play overturned this season after an ump conference, but that's as many as I've seen in over a decade of coaching youth sports in situations with only one ref/ump.

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
If it makes you feel any better, down by 4 with two outs to a team you "know" you can't beat, you're probably losing the game either way.  It's not like she botched the call on a game-winning dong.  
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Yeah but his daughter was up next, and she should have had the chance to get that dong.  I know girls softball isnt all about the dongs, and a lot of them would rather hit a slippery one up the gap.  Some girls just swing that way, kind of like ladies golf.  But it doesnt matter how you swing if you get a big enough dong, and his daughter would have had a chance to get the biggest dong of them all.  I can understand why the father of a girls softball player would want his little girl to get just a taste of that kind of dong.  The feeling could literally have changed her life.  

 
Godsbrother said:
Originally I thought the OP was ocrrect cause that's how I always remembered it being called.  However according to this website , it could go either way:

"The runner is out when hit by a batted ball before it passes an infielder. (Rule 5.09(f) and 7.08(f) and 7.09(k)). If it passes one infielder and another fielder who is on the outfield side of the basepath had a possible play on the ball, the runner could still be called out. This is a judgment by the umpire. "

Take it for what it is worth...
Click to expand...
Yes, I addressed that. The ump said, in her judgement, the shortstop could have made a play. Not only is the notion nonsense, but that isnt what she said originally...until she was told of the rule. 

 
I corrected an incorrect backcourt call I had made earlier this year in a HS summer game.  The wronged coach argued and my partner confirmed he was correct.  I realized I was wrong and awarded the ball back to the correct team.  

My favorite was the other coach who would have benefitted asking if I agreed with the other coach and then again asking if I was sure.  That is why refs hesitate to change calls because everyone in the building now gives the "are you sure?" comments for the rest of the game.

If you are wrong and have been shown you are wrong, I would rather get it right.  However, on judgement calls, everyone can just go pound sand.  Sometimes you make a bad judgement call, as crap just happens and you blink or you lose concentration for a bit.  Every ref does it on occasion.  You just pray it doesn't happen in a big game/big moment.

 
sorry man, that sucks.  i know how frustrating it is to know that you're right but can't do anything about it because someone else has the power to make the change and is being stubborn.

 
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Cjw_55106 said:
Yes, I addressed that. The ump said, in her judgement, the shortstop could have made a play. Not only is the notion nonsense, but that isnt what she said originally...until she was told of the rule. 
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Okay if she said the SS and the ball went to the outfield then she is full of baloney.  On the other hand if she felt the runner interfered with an outfielder's ability to make a play on the ball that could be a legitimate call.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Yes, I addressed that. The ump said, in her judgement, the shortstop could have made a play. Not only is the notion nonsense, but that isnt what she said originally...until she was told of the rule. 
Click to expand...
It reminds me of the time I had a basketball ref call an intentional foul on my son.  He was chasing a player down the court who was dribbilng the ball.  Player dribbling stops suddenly, and my son stumbles trying to stop and runs into the player.  Whistle blows, and I expect a foul to be called as he knocked him over.  Ref calls intentional foul.  I call him over to discuss and this is how it goes:

Me: How is that intentional?

Ref: Your player needs to be in control of himself

Me: The other player stopped right in front of him. Obviously it is a foul, but he didn't try to run him over.

Ref: I can judge intent.  I can only call what I see.

Me: You can't judge intent?  It's right in the name, intentional foul!?

Ref: Then that's my call, he intended to do it.

 
Godsbrother said:
Okay if she said the SS and the ball went to the outfield then she is full of baloney.  On the other hand if she felt the runner interfered with an outfielder's ability to make a play on the ball that could be a legitimate call.
Click to expand...
She never mentioned any interference as the runner was well behind (3ft?) the short stop. 

 
Bull Dozier said:
It reminds me of the time I had a basketball ref call an intentional foul on my son.  He was chasing a player down the court who was dribbilng the ball.  Player dribbling stops suddenly, and my son stumbles trying to stop and runs into the player.  Whistle blows, and I expect a foul to be called as he knocked him over.  Ref calls intentional foul.  I call him over to discuss and this is how it goes:

Me: How is that intentional?

Ref: Your player needs to be in control of himself

Me: The other player stopped right in front of him. Obviously it is a foul, but he didn't try to run him over.

Ref: I can judge intent.  I can only call what I see.

Me: You can't judge intent?  It's right in the name, intentional foul!?

Ref: Then that's my call, he intended to do it.
Click to expand...
Intentional and flagrant are interchangable.  He may have seen it as a hard foul.  He was taking a ####ty ####### angle if the dribbler stopped and he ran into his back.

 
listen i normally follow the path of the brohan but there are a few things that make me want to just shout man confront you on street he is enemy and then sweep the leg but hey this is not one of them this is just a softball game tell your team they had a great end of the season they are getting better practice a lot this offseason keep working keep getting better you can do it and then next year we will dominate and by the way that call was crummy but focus on the getting better keep them coming back out for the team and maybe work in a mr myagi nose honk or something that guy had all the moves take that to the bank bromigo 

 
Short Corner said:
Intentional and flagrant are interchangable.  He may have seen it as a hard foul.  He was taking a ####ty ####### angle if the dribbler stopped and he ran into his back.
Click to expand...
Not worth the hijack, but just two points.  First, I believe, all intentional fouls are flagrant fouls, but not all flagrant fouls are intentional.

Second, its a little hard to explain, but he was following the dribbler up the court in transition.  My son started in the corner, turnover was closer to the mid line.  The angles of the players line of trajectory up the court was different.  As my son was passing behind the offensive player to get towards the middle of the court, he suddenly stopped.

 
If the kid had been coached up to run on contact, she'd have been past the shortstop and likely would have scored.  Your team would have completed the comeback, won the game, and tourney.

Way to go coaching your kids to a humiliating and unnecessary loss. 

 
James Daulton said:
If the kid had been coached up to run on contact, she'd have been past the shortstop and likely would have scored.  Your team would have completed the comeback, won the game, and tourney.

Way to go coaching your kids to a humiliating and unnecessary loss. 
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. Perhaps you should consult the layout of a field and where players play the positions. 

 
jon_mx said:
why is the SS playing three feet in front of the base path? 
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I was gonna ask the same thing. And why especially are you playing that shallow up 4 runs and only needing 1 out with a force at any base? Would help to know where all the infielders are positioned here, cuz if the SS plays that shallow, maybe the 3B plays behind the base (it would be idiotic not to in this scenario), and has a shot to backup the SS.

 
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pantagrapher said:
I was gonna ask the same thing. And why especially are you playing that shallow up 4 runs and only needing 1 out with a force at any base? Would help to know where all the infielders are positioned here, cuz if the SS plays that shallow, maybe the 3B plays behind the base (it would be idiotic not to in this scenario), and has a shot to backup the SS.
Click to expand...
Again, very common. The score doesn't matter. If you play much deeper, you'll never get a girl out if they hit anything soft. 60 ft bases dont give you much time at all. 

 
Bull Dozier said:
Not worth the hijack, but just two points.  First, I believe, all intentional fouls are flagrant fouls, but not all flagrant fouls are intentional.

Second, its a little hard to explain, but he was following the dribbler up the court in transition.  My son started in the corner, turnover was closer to the mid line.  The angles of the players line of trajectory up the court was different.  As my son was passing behind the offensive player to get towards the middle of the court, he suddenly stopped.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'd never call an intentional in that situation.  Basketball is a contact sport.  Especially with younger kids and even more so with girls, they will run into each other on accident.  Sometimes it needs to be a foul, but intentional and flagrant fouls are for situations where excessive force was used when it could have been avoided and increased the possibility for injury. 

 
It's pretty simple, tournament director either didn't see the play or didn't have a clear view of it. He talked to the ump and the ump said the runner interfered with the play by touching the ball. Batter's out. Whether the runner interfered with the play or whether the SS had no play regardless is indeed a judgement call on the Ump regardless of how clear the call was to you. You probably would have lost either way, no need to get upset over it. This stuff happens all the time in sports and the runner should ALWAYS try not to get hit by the ball.

 
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