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Some of these "coaching" decisions are killing me. (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
At least once a week I almost spit my beer out while I am watching these games. Be it a ridiculous onside kick when you are ahead with less than 5:00 to go(that's not a misprint), be it the 5th grade math level skills of some of these head coaches, be it time management or when to go for two, they really make some questionable calls constantly. Fake FGs when they could just take the 3 points and add to their lead, this league is getting worse and worse.

My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins. When you're a kid you don't follow all 28 teams(at my time) as often as you do once you start playing FF. Marino and Shula were great at managing the clock. Marino inparticular could milk and bleed the clock better than almost anyone I ever saw. Dan could get down the field easily with 1:00 left on the clock. The Miami Dolphins were one of the best 2:00 offenses I ever got to see. They knew when to burn the timeouts, they didn't waste time on plays that would not maximize yds for time. That is a major gripe of mine is watching an NFL starting QB, with a bevy of offesive coaches around them and they think a 5 yd dump off with :50 left that ends up burning 23 seconds off the clock, that play should never happen. If the pass isn't there(down the field), throw it away and save the time. Time management is about the worst in the NFL, and the QBs/teams that actually do manage the time well tend to win a lot more games. Peyton is by far the best at working game clock right now in the NFL, he's so far ahead of everyone else it's just a shame he is heading into the twilight of his career. Manning's brain works even better now than when he entered the NFL, always had the skills, rocket arm, but he is so fluid at reading defenses and working the clock, just fun to watch as a fan.

There are lots of other factors in clock mamnagement besides just the 2:00 warning. How about Jeff Fisher not wanting to burn 3 timeouts when he had the Phins pinned back inside their 5 yd line yesterday late in the 1st half? Miami just wanted to get to the locker room and Tennessee was all too willing to help them. Lots of bad things can happen to an offense and good things to a defense when the offense is trapped inside the 5 with essentially a rookie QB under center. Terrible use of timeouts, clock, and just overall bad thinking IMO by Fisher and I love him as a coach.

Let's discuss the 2 point conversion which was like deregulating the mortgage business for the NFL. They allowed these guys to be like college and have the 2 point conversion finally. It was put in probably over a decade ago, not sure if it is 15-20 years old at this point but essentially when it was put in, the hope was when teams were down 8 that fans would continue to watch. When I was a kid, if your team was down 28-20 they were in pretty bad shape late in a football game because it meant there was no going for 2. They were going to have to score a TD, onside kick, then get in FG range...rarely happened back then sort of like now.

What has happened is they have opened up pandora's box for head football coaches to look about as dumb as a box of rocks. I have one coach to highight that actually did the right thing yesterday when his team was down 24-6 and that was Miami Dolphins' Head Coach, Tony Sporano, a pretty conservative Head Coach I might add. It was 4th and 3, Miami was on about the 28 yd line of Tennessee and they were driving, it was getting into the final 1/3rd of the 3rd quarter roughly. Down 18, instead of going for it which many coaches would have and media would never question, but instead Sporano kicked the FG and I am sure Miami fans in the bars throughout South Florida were booing the guy. But what he did was extend the game and allow Miami to make it a 2 score game down 15 now. He understood they would get more chances to score, whether they cut it to a 1 score game early in the 4th, the midway point of the 4th, towards the end, whenever it might happen he had extended the game for Miami. They did in fact march up and down the field in the 4th quarter and finally tied the game up, made the important 2 point conversion and got to OT. Sure, they lost the game but they would have never had a chance to win if they didn't follow a path to get there. and it starts a lot of times by taking points when they are given to you. Miami is a well coached team no matter what their record.

So many coaches blow games by not being able to figure out basic math. I see this scenario a lot and I agree with Phil Simms 100% on this. Team is ahead 24-13, team that is down scores a TD at some point in the 3rd quarter, maybe even early 4th and they go for 2 points...why? If they kick the XP, they are down 24-20 and yes they need another TD, but that is assuming you can shut the other team down completely and most teams that have socred 24 can and will drive again. If you hold them to a FG, you are only down 7 and still have time to tie the football game and get it to overtime. The 2 point conversion IMO has made the game worse in many aspects. The benefits don't seem to be there for me. It does allow for a team down 16 to score 2 TDs and 2 two point conversions but how often does that happen? It was used more for the fans and I think the fans are getting an inferior product because of it. I'm not suggesting taking it away yet but coaches need a class and why its there and how to use it. They all need a clock management specialist that works their sidelines, I for one would like to volunteer.

And finally, how about some of these calls? Mike Tomlin should be shot from a cannon for making that call yesterday, totally dumb call and he deserved to lose. Fortunately for him he has one of the best 4th quarter QBs in the NFL hands down, Big Ben saved his butt yesterday and he should buy him a big steak dinner for it with all the trimmings...500 yds passing??? Are you kidding me and against one of the better defenses in the NFL, please!!!

But it doesn't take away the risky calls I see lately. Sean Payton a couple weeks ago going for it with a fake FG when he could have taken the 3 points in a close game where they needed everything they could get....what was up with that? I could kinda live with BB's decision against the Colts a few weeks back but these coaches are taking a lot of silly risks. How bout JDR asking MJD to fall down at the 1 yd line, just terrible teaching IMO. Take the points anytime you can get them.

That's all for my Archie Bunker impersonation tody. Please chime in with your gripes.

 
Well put. I'm in agreement with you.
I think folks in the 30s or older like myself simple remember a different era when coaches seemed to take a lot more ownership over their decisions. It almost seems like some coaches cannot be bothered with this stuff, but its the little things which in fact I believe is a major thing that makes all the difference. How many Head Coaches are truly successful that cannot manage the game clock?
 
what I saw a lot of this year were Qbs with very little time left in the half or game throwing less than 10 yard passes...stupid...better off throwing it away than killing 15 or so seconds to line up for another play.

 
This isn't your father's NFL anymore.I like the risky calls. :lmao:
There's a big difference between being aggressive and risky (i.e. wreckless). Coaches who make too many wreckless decisions eventually get run out of the league. Tomlin hasn't made too many.....but he definitely had one yesterday. He's probably still kissing the ground for the fact it didn't come back to bite him. Next time, it probably will.
 
At least once a week I almost spit my beer out while I am watching these games. Be it a ridiculous onside kick when you are ahead with less than 5:00 to go(that's not a misprint), be it the 5th grade math level skills of some of these head coaches, be it time management or when to go for two, they really make some questionable calls constantly. And finally, how about some of these calls? Mike Tomlin should be shot from a cannon for making that call yesterday, totally dumb call and he deserved to lose. Fortunately for him he has one of the best 4th quarter QBs in the NFL hands down, Big Ben saved his butt yesterday and he should buy him a big steak dinner for it with all the trimmings...500 yds passing??? Are you kidding me and against one of the better defenses in the NFL, please!!!
Don't get me started about the Tomlin call, I'm exhausted from being about the only one that thinks it was a bad call in another thread. Vince Lombardi would roll over in his grave.I totally agree with the Peyton all too. The guy should have went up by 6. Yes, a TD beats you but a field goal doesn't tie you and Atlanta had a backup QB and running back in the game......BAD CALL.
 
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Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Ministry of Pain said:
At least once a week I almost spit my beer out while I am watching these games. Be it a ridiculous onside kick when you are ahead with less than 5:00 to go(that's not a misprint), be it the 5th grade math level skills of some of these head coaches, be it time management or when to go for two, they really make some questionable calls constantly. And finally, how about some of these calls? Mike Tomlin should be shot from a cannon for making that call yesterday, totally dumb call and he deserved to lose. Fortunately for him he has one of the best 4th quarter QBs in the NFL hands down, Big Ben saved his butt yesterday and he should buy him a big steak dinner for it with all the trimmings...500 yds passing??? Are you kidding me and against one of the better defenses in the NFL, please!!!
Don't get me started about the Tomlin call, I'm exhausted from being about the only one that thinks it was a bad call. Vince Lombardi would roll over in his grave.
:lmao:
 
theplayer11 said:
what I saw a lot of this year were Qbs with very little time left in the half or game throwing less than 10 yard passes...stupid...better off throwing it away than killing 15 or so seconds to line up for another play.
absolutely, QBs throwing 10 yd middle of the field routes when they are down big and need to score TDs, what is the thinking here? If you can't throw the ball downfield please get out of the way and let someone else try.
 
I don't think they should even let the coaches on the field during the game. Let the players figure it out. The NFL is overcoached.

 
JJP said:
beavers said:
This isn't your father's NFL anymore.I like the risky calls. :lmao:
There's a big difference between being aggressive and risky (i.e. wreckless). Coaches who make too many wreckless decisions eventually get run out of the league. Tomlin hasn't made too many.....but he definitely had one yesterday. He's probably still kissing the ground for the fact it didn't come back to bite him. Next time, it probably will.
Reed was kicking to the 35 all game for kickoffs. Rogers could have easily moved the ball into FG range and killed the clock while doing so. Green Bay walks away with the win. Instead, Tomlin did anything he could for the win. It was a very risky call that was within a half yard of working. I give Tomlin credit for trying to win at all costs. I would almost guarantee you that the Steelers defense would not have stopped Green Bay from scoring. History was repeating itself yesterday.I just read on how onside kicks are 60% successful if they have an element of surprise (there's a thread on it in the SP). But I can see how traditionalists would get angry over this call.
 
theplayer11 said:
what I saw a lot of this year were Qbs with very little time left in the half or game throwing less than 10 yard passes...stupid...better off throwing it away than killing 15 or so seconds to line up for another play.
absolutely, QBs throwing 10 yd middle of the field routes when they are down big and need to score TDs, what is the thinking here? If you can't throw the ball downfield please get out of the way and let someone else try.
Yes, throw that interception right away into that umbrella coverage which is guarding against the deep ball and the sideline pass.
 
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If Wade Phillips or Jim Zorn would have done that, tried an onside kick after just taking the lead with 5 mins to play, they would have been fired before night's end, that's how bad of a call I thought it was.

 
One of my pet peeves is the two point conversion as well. I think it should only be tried in the last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. Any other time just kick the extra point.

With 12:26 left in the fourth quarter, the Panthers scored to take a 12 to 7 lead. An extra point would make it 13-7 but they decided to go for two instead and didn't make it. 12 1/2 minutes is a lot of football left. Suppose the Vikings did score and made a two point conversion which would have made the score 15 to 12. Now Carolina needs a field goal to tie it at 15 instead of a field goal to win it 16-14. Luckily it was a moot point but 12 1/2 minutes is too early to go for two in my opinion.

 
If Wade Phillips or Jim Zorn would have done that, tried an onside kick after just taking the lead with 5 mins to play, they would have been fired before night's end, that's how bad of a call I thought it was.
Agree 100% but you bring up a great point or question, does a Head Coach's resume or body of work entitle them to make riskier decisions? Wade had no leeway I would think vs Tomlin who just wona Super bowl last year. What are the odds the media crucifies him? Not high I would think.
 
Two things have changed since your father's NFL:

1) Passing, and thus come from behind scoring, is much easier than it used to be. A 14-point lead with 8 mins left can be easily overcome by a good QB, whereas it was close to certain doom in the '70s.

2) Coaches have begun optimizing team strategy at the expense of "letting the players play." What I mean is some decisions may be the right call, but they change the scapegoat from the player to the coach. If you're up 3 late in the game, and it's 4th and 1 from inside the opponent's 5 yard line, the right move may be to go for it. But the old thinking was "take the points, let the other team beat you. Let them make a bunch of big plays. Let's not beat ourselves; let's make it so that unless our defense collapses, we in." That was the mantra, even if it was suboptimal. Now, coaches are inching more towards making the right call even if it is risky. Miss the 4th down conversion, and now the coach is the goat if the team loses.

It's not much different than if before the game, someone asked a HC to spin a wheel where 60% of the time the ball would land on "team win" and 40% on "team loss." If you have two evenly matched teams, spinning the wheel is the right move. But you're not "giving your team a chance to play hard and win."

 
Jimmy Raye has been an offensive co-ordinator (career average of 19th ranked) on 8 different occasions for 7 different teams and sucked everywhere he has gone yet still gets employment. It doesn't take much brains to coach in this league. Many owners now are totally senile. They don't even know that they are employing coaches that suck.

 
I would have rather lost to ATL in OT then Dallas this week because of that call by Payton.

 
I've never understood why teams burn a time out in the 2nd half to avoid a delay of game penalty. Unless it's a huge 3rd or 4th and short, wouldn't you rather just lose 5 yards than give up a TO? 2nd and 7 around midfield, play clock winding down and the team burns one? Just take the penalty, make it 2nd and 12 and save the time out for when you're really going to need it.

 
One of my pet peeves is the two point conversion as well. I think it should only be tried in the last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. Any other time just kick the extra point.With 12:26 left in the fourth quarter, the Panthers scored to take a 12 to 7 lead. An extra point would make it 13-7 but they decided to go for two instead and didn't make it. 12 1/2 minutes is a lot of football left. Suppose the Vikings did score and made a two point conversion which would have made the score 15 to 12. Now Carolina needs a field goal to tie it at 15 instead of a field goal to win it 16-14. Luckily it was a moot point but 12 1/2 minutes is too early to go for two in my opinion.
Perfect example. I did not watch a minute of that game last night but this is exactly what I was talking about, drives me nuts.
 
I've never understood why teams burn a time out in the 2nd half to avoid a delay of game penalty. Unless it's a huge 3rd or 4th and short, wouldn't you rather just lose 5 yards than give up a TO? 2nd and 7 around midfield, play clock winding down and the team burns one? Just take the penalty, make it 2nd and 12 and save the time out for when you're really going to need it.
I've been thinking this for years. But coaches and QBs still seem content to save the 5 yards and burn the timeout.
 
One of my pet peeves is the two point conversion as well. I think it should only be tried in the last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. Any other time just kick the extra point.With 12:26 left in the fourth quarter, the Panthers scored to take a 12 to 7 lead. An extra point would make it 13-7 but they decided to go for two instead and didn't make it. 12 1/2 minutes is a lot of football left. Suppose the Vikings did score and made a two point conversion which would have made the score 15 to 12. Now Carolina needs a field goal to tie it at 15 instead of a field goal to win it 16-14. Luckily it was a moot point but 12 1/2 minutes is too early to go for two in my opinion.
Perfect example. I did not watch a minute of that game last night but this is exactly what I was talking about, drives me nuts.
:hophead: Another way to look at it is if Carolina gets the ball and gets a FG late in the 4th. Kick the extra point and it's two scores they are down by. Miss the 2 point conversion and a TD can tie the game.
 
One of my pet peeves is the two point conversion as well. I think it should only be tried in the last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. Any other time just kick the extra point.
Why don't coaches understand this? I mean how hard can this concept be if a bunch of football monkeys on the internet can get it?
 
Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Don't get me started about the Tomlin call, I'm exhausted from being about the only one that thinks it was a bad call in another thread. Vince Lombardi would roll over in his grave.
Vince won football games when toughness was the be-all-end-all instead of athleticism and scheme...when neither team had the ability to make spectacular game-changing plays at the drop of a hat, and where thus games were virtually always won by the team that was more disciplined.Today, every team has thirty players with skills that Vince never saw in his worst nightmares. Today, by virtue of these same advances in scheme and athleticism, every coach faces a dozen situations every game more strategically harrowing than Vince ever faced even once in his career.Vince was the perfect coach for the perfect era, but comparing his brand of discipline and strategy to the one needed in today's NFL is a mistake, IMO. A coach who came in as a reincarnation of Lombardi would be a washout today.
 
One of my pet peeves is the two point conversion as well. I think it should only be tried in the last 5 minutes of the fourth quarter. Any other time just kick the extra point.
Why don't coaches understand this? I mean how hard can this concept be if a bunch of football monkeys on the internet can get it?
Agreed. Nutty!I'm not completely against going for it on fourth down in formerly-unconventional scenarios, BUT I'm left wondering if an unintended consequence is players not treating third down with the same sense of urgency as they did in years past. If you knew coach was going to call a punt or a FG try on fourth down, no matter what... Just sayin' is all...
 
Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Don't get me started about the Tomlin call, I'm exhausted from being about the only one that thinks it was a bad call in another thread. Vince Lombardi would roll over in his grave.
Vince won football games when toughness was the be-all-end-all instead of athleticism and scheme...when neither team had the ability to make spectacular game-changing plays at the drop of a hat, and where thus games were virtually always won by the team that was more disciplined.Today, every team has thirty players with skills that Vince never saw in his worst nightmares. Today, by virtue of these same advances in scheme and athleticism, every coach faces a dozen situations every game more strategically harrowing than Vince ever faced even once in his career.Vince was the perfect coach for the perfect era, but comparing his brand of discipline and strategy to the one needed in today's NFL is a mistake, IMO. A coach who came in as a reincarnation of Lombardi would be a washout today.
I guess there is no room for disciplined teams that play good sound football. The game is the same, you are either blocking or tackling if you do not hold the ball. And since only 1 person out of 22 can have their hands on the football, I would say you need to be doing of the 1 of the aforementioned 2 things-blocking and tackling. Yes the game is much different as far as the plays that are run, but its the big uglies upfront that allow those things to transpire. I would rather have the best OL and DL in the NFL with so so players at the skill positions, but that's me. Seems like New England managed to win 3 Super Bowls with very iffy talent at WR and RB, when they were explosive with moss and Welker and crew they failed.
 
JJP said:
beavers said:
This isn't your father's NFL anymore.I like the risky calls. :goodposting:
There's a big difference between being aggressive and risky (i.e. wreckless). Coaches who make too many wreckless decisions eventually get run out of the league. Tomlin hasn't made too many.....but he definitely had one yesterday. He's probably still kissing the ground for the fact it didn't come back to bite him. Next time, it probably will.
Reed was kicking to the 35 all game for kickoffs. Rogers could have easily moved the ball into FG range and killed the clock while doing so. Green Bay walks away with the win. Instead, Tomlin did anything he could for the win. It was a very risky call that was within a half yard of working. I give Tomlin credit for trying to win at all costs. I would almost guarantee you that the Steelers defense would not have stopped Green Bay from scoring. History was repeating itself yesterday.I just read on how onside kicks are 60% successful if they have an element of surprise (there's a thread on it in the SP). But I can see how traditionalists would get angry over this call.
Somebody made up that 60% number. The percentage of times that the kicking team recovers an onsides kick is 15%. And just who is define "element of surprise"?
 
Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Don't get me started about the Tomlin call, I'm exhausted from being about the only one that thinks it was a bad call in another thread. Vince Lombardi would roll over in his grave.
Vince won football games when toughness was the be-all-end-all instead of athleticism and scheme...when neither team had the ability to make spectacular game-changing plays at the drop of a hat, and where thus games were virtually always won by the team that was more disciplined.Today, every team has thirty players with skills that Vince never saw in his worst nightmares. Today, by virtue of these same advances in scheme and athleticism, every coach faces a dozen situations every game more strategically harrowing than Vince ever faced even once in his career.Vince was the perfect coach for the perfect era, but comparing his brand of discipline and strategy to the one needed in today's NFL is a mistake, IMO. A coach who came in as a reincarnation of Lombardi would be a washout today.
Though i think i understand what you're trying to say, you are SO wrong with that last sentence. The thing that makes any coach great is the ability to adapt his system to the talent he has, and the conditions of contest at the time. Lombardi was the perfect coach at the time, but that same qualities would make him a great coach today or in the next century. The ability to motivate and lead, understand his players and their abilities, and apply them to whatever the conditions were or are, dont know anyone that has done that like Lombardi. Don Shula a pretty close second, though. I just look at a coach who had his qb throw 7 passes total in a super bowl game in one era, then coach a player like Dan Marino to all the passing records he attained in a ifferent era. Thats aapting to the talent you have.
 
I've never understood why teams burn a time out in the 2nd half to avoid a delay of game penalty. Unless it's a huge 3rd or 4th and short, wouldn't you rather just lose 5 yards than give up a TO? 2nd and 7 around midfield, play clock winding down and the team burns one? Just take the penalty, make it 2nd and 12 and save the time out for when you're really going to need it.
Totally depends on the situation but I agree they should probably take the delay more than they do. Like Dallas for instance against New Orleans. At the end of the game, Wade takes a timeout with 1 second on the play clock instead of the delay. They were on the 5 or 10, something like that. The 5 yard penalty added on to the kick doesn't effect the kick and you can save your timeout just in case you need it.Now, Dallas STILL missed the field goal AND burned the timeout but Nick Folk is an entirely different subject.
 
Ministry of Pain said:
At least once a week I almost spit my beer out while I am watching these games. Be it a ridiculous onside kick when you are ahead with less than 5:00 to go(that's not a misprint), be it the 5th grade math level skills of some of these head coaches, be it time management or when to go for two, they really make some questionable calls constantly. Fake FGs when they could just take the 3 points and add to their lead, this league is getting worse and worse.

My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins. When you're a kid you don't follow all 28 teams(at my time) as often as you do once you start playing FF. Marino and Shula were great at managing the clock. Marino inparticular could milk and bleed the clock better than almost anyone I ever saw. Dan could get down the field easily with 1:00 left on the clock. The Miami Dolphins were one of the best 2:00 offenses I ever got to see. They knew when to burn the timeouts, they didn't waste time on plays that would not maximize yds for time. That is a major gripe of mine is watching an NFL starting QB, with a bevy of offesive coaches around them and they think a 5 yd dump off with :50 left that ends up burning 23 seconds off the clock, that play should never happen. If the pass isn't there(down the field), throw it away and save the time. Time management is about the worst in the NFL, and the QBs/teams that actually do manage the time well tend to win a lot more games. Peyton is by far the best at working game clock right now in the NFL, he's so far ahead of everyone else it's just a shame he is heading into the twilight of his career. Manning's brain works even better now than when he entered the NFL, always had the skills, rocket arm, but he is so fluid at reading defenses and working the clock, just fun to watch as a fan.

There are lots of other factors in clock mamnagement besides just the 2:00 warning. How about Jeff Fisher not wanting to burn 3 timeouts when he had the Phins pinned back inside their 5 yd line yesterday late in the 1st half? Miami just wanted to get to the locker room and Tennessee was all too willing to help them. Lots of bad things can happen to an offense and good things to a defense when the offense is trapped inside the 5 with essentially a rookie QB under center. Terrible use of timeouts, clock, and just overall bad thinking IMO by Fisher and I love him as a coach.

Let's discuss the 2 point conversion which was like deregulating the mortgage business for the NFL. They allowed these guys to be like college and have the 2 point conversion finally. It was put in probably over a decade ago, not sure if it is 15-20 years old at this point but essentially when it was put in, the hope was when teams were down 8 that fans would continue to watch. When I was a kid, if your team was down 28-20 they were in pretty bad shape late in a football game because it meant there was no going for 2. They were going to have to score a TD, onside kick, then get in FG range...rarely happened back then sort of like now.

What has happened is they have opened up pandora's box for head football coaches to look about as dumb as a box of rocks. I have one coach to highight that actually did the right thing yesterday when his team was down 24-6 and that was Miami Dolphins' Head Coach, Tony Sporano, a pretty conservative Head Coach I might add. It was 4th and 3, Miami was on about the 28 yd line of Tennessee and they were driving, it was getting into the final 1/3rd of the 3rd quarter roughly. Down 18, instead of going for it which many coaches would have and media would never question, but instead Sporano kicked the FG and I am sure Miami fans in the bars throughout South Florida were booing the guy. But what he did was extend the game and allow Miami to make it a 2 score game down 15 now. He understood they would get more chances to score, whether they cut it to a 1 score game early in the 4th, the midway point of the 4th, towards the end, whenever it might happen he had extended the game for Miami. They did in fact march up and down the field in the 4th quarter and finally tied the game up, made the important 2 point conversion and got to OT. Sure, they lost the game but they would have never had a chance to win if they didn't follow a path to get there. and it starts a lot of times by taking points when they are given to you. Miami is a well coached team no matter what their record.

So many coaches blow games by not being able to figure out basic math. I see this scenario a lot and I agree with Phil Simms 100% on this. Team is ahead 24-13, team that is down scores a TD at some point in the 3rd quarter, maybe even early 4th and they go for 2 points...why? If they kick the XP, they are down 24-20 and yes they need another TD, but that is assuming you can shut the other team down completely and most teams that have socred 24 can and will drive again. If you hold them to a FG, you are only down 7 and still have time to tie the football game and get it to overtime. The 2 point conversion IMO has made the game worse in many aspects. The benefits don't seem to be there for me. It does allow for a team down 16 to score 2 TDs and 2 two point conversions but how often does that happen? It was used more for the fans and I think the fans are getting an inferior product because of it. I'm not suggesting taking it away yet but coaches need a class and why its there and how to use it. They all need a clock management specialist that works their sidelines, I for one would like to volunteer.

And finally, how about some of these calls? Mike Tomlin should be shot from a cannon for making that call yesterday, totally dumb call and he deserved to lose. Fortunately for him he has one of the best 4th quarter QBs in the NFL hands down, Big Ben saved his butt yesterday and he should buy him a big steak dinner for it with all the trimmings...500 yds passing??? Are you kidding me and against one of the better defenses in the NFL, please!!!

But it doesn't take away the risky calls I see lately. Sean Payton a couple weeks ago going for it with a fake FG when he could have taken the 3 points in a close game where they needed everything they could get....what was up with that? I could kinda live with BB's decision against the Colts a few weeks back but these coaches are taking a lot of silly risks. How bout JDR asking MJD to fall down at the 1 yd line, just terrible teaching IMO. Take the points anytime you can get them.

That's all for my Archie Bunker impersonation tody. Please chime in with your gripes.
I think some things need to be taken into account here:

- the speed of the game has increased dramatically, as have the responsibilities;

- the recycling of coaches (for instance, Wade Phillips is in his FOURTH head coaching gig right now) and there were never that many great coaches to begin with, even in the old days;

- the complexity of the game has increased, but meanwhile it's still a game of gut instinct (sorry, Tomlin had a gut feeling that "now" was the time to go for the onsides, and you would have told him then and there he, NFL Championship Head Coach Of The Steelers Mike Tomlin, was wrong???)

Yes, I see some boneheaded calls. There was one a few weeks ago when Reid had the Eagles punt when they were behind by maybe 1-2 scores but probably not enough time to punt and get the ball back. I remember a playoff game a few years back when he did exactly the same thing. That tells me that though maybe the pure numbers suggested he did the wrong thing, he had a strategy (maybe a flawed one) or maybe an instinct (albeit a consistent one) that he was following.

The Saints/Payton fake field goal reminded me of the Wayne Fontes call several years back when out of nowhere he called for a fake pount from his own 20, they blew it and they lost (a game that had playoff implications I think). But in Payton's case the play was wide open, Brunell had two open receivers (one a lineman admittedly), so it was a question of execution not the call itself.

Belichick went for that 4th down vs the Colts - but Belichick was a genius with 4 AFC and 3 NFL titles but all of a sudden he's a moron?

No, of course not.

To the bold go the victories and spoils.

I'm a Saints fan, I've seen more bad football than many people can shake a stick at. The bad coaching happens (a) the week before the game, and (b) (ESPECIALLY) at halftime.

 
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Ministry of Pain said:
My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins.
The foundation for multiple championship teams... I'm glad many of the NFL's 'givens' are being challenged. It's about damn time. For years people complained that NFL coaches were way too conservative - now, people (and it's not just you) are complaining about coaches being to daring. Ridiculous.
 
For the supporters of the onside kick theory by Pittsburgh, did Green Bay blow the game by scoring a TD?

Why did they score a TD when they did? Why did they attack so far down field? Why didn't the guy catch the ball at the 10 yard line and go down so that they could kneel down and burn clock? Why kneel, because of course Pittsburgh would just let them walk into the endzone without tackling him right so that they could get the ball back?

Is this what the NFL has turned out to be? Everything we were taught not to do? To play defense but not really?

If this is the case, the NFL needs to look at the rules because what I have outlined is an absolute joke at the professional level. Fall down, let guys score, kneel down because other teams won't tackle, you have to be freaken kidding me.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins.
The foundation for multiple championship teams... I'm glad many of the NFL's 'givens' are being challenged. It's about damn time. For years people complained that NFL coaches were way too conservative - now, people (and it's not just you) are complaining about coaches being to daring. Ridiculous.
Punting the ball when it's 4th and 1 at midfield is being too conservative in the 2nd quarter. What we're seeing is not only not on the same page but not in the same book.
 
Ministry of Pain said:
My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins.
The foundation for multiple championship teams... I'm glad many of the NFL's 'givens' are being challenged. It's about damn time. For years people complained that NFL coaches were way too conservative - now, people (and it's not just you) are complaining about coaches being to daring.

Ridiculous.
Personally, I would love to see teams do more with the possible formations.Why not have mcNabb and Vick split behind the center (i.e. not directly behind him)?

I did see the Eagles run a play that I loved several weeks back with maybe just 3 true lineman in traditional scrimmage formation (2 on either side of the center) and the remaining players lined up across the field. Teams should do more of this.

 
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Personally, I would love to see teams do more with the possible formations.

Why not have mcNabb and Vick split behind the center (i.e. not directly behind him)?

I did see the Eagles run a play that I loved several weeks back with maybe just 3 true lineman in traditional scrimmage formation (2 on either side of the center) and the remaining players lined up across the field. Teams should do more of this.
Me, too. I just don't think it's a great idea on 4th and 4 from your own 43 on your opening drive in a scoreless game.
 
Ministry of Pain said:
My measuring stick is Dan Marino, Don Shula, and the 1980s-mid 1990s Miami Dolphins.
The foundation for multiple championship teams... I'm glad many of the NFL's 'givens' are being challenged. It's about damn time. For years people complained that NFL coaches were way too conservative - now, people (and it's not just you) are complaining about coaches being to daring. Ridiculous.
I could have said from Griese to Marino under Shula...Shula did go to 3 straight Super Bowls, Coached in 5 of them, won back to back NFL Championships and both of these guys were 1st ballot HoF inductees, so yes it was part of the Championship discussion, if you can't accept that then I don't know what else to say.
 
If you want to see some terrible coaching decisions on a weekly basis, watch the last 2 minutes of each half of Redskin games, especially when they have the ball. I don't even know where to begin in describing it. Slowing down playcalls, sending in calls that don't fit the players that were just sent it, a QB standing there signaling for a call which the play clock winds down, letting the play clock wind all the way down and calling a timeout, to then call the same stretch play they always call after a timeout. It's like deliberate sabotage.

 
JJP said:
beavers said:
This isn't your father's NFL anymore.

I like the risky calls. :thumbup:
There's a big difference between being aggressive and risky (i.e. wreckless). Coaches who make too many wreckless decisions eventually get run out of the league. Tomlin hasn't made too many.....but he definitely had one yesterday. He's probably still kissing the ground for the fact it didn't come back to bite him. Next time, it probably will.
Reed was kicking to the 35 all game for kickoffs. Rogers could have easily moved the ball into FG range and killed the clock while doing so. Green Bay walks away with the win. Instead, Tomlin did anything he could for the win. It was a very risky call that was within a half yard of working. I give Tomlin credit for trying to win at all costs. I would almost guarantee you that the Steelers defense would not have stopped Green Bay from scoring. History was repeating itself yesterday.I just read on how onside kicks are 60% successful if they have an element of surprise (there's a thread on it in the SP).

But I can see how traditionalists would get angry over this call.
Somebody made up that 60% number. The percentage of times that the kicking team recovers an onsides kick is 15%. And just who is define "element of surprise"?
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=513137
 

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