Speculation - I can’t get excited about football anymore. IMO games are manipulated. (1 Viewer)

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

ETA - that this is only my opinion, pure speculation and I have no proof of wrongdoing. 

Ive come to the conclusion that the games aren’t entirely on the level. Being a Cowboys fan (beat you to it!), the rule changes and this years playoff games I just have lost the love for the game.

Im sure most will laugh this off and call me a nutter but once I found this it confirmed it. I’m not suggesting all the players are in on it but I’m  it sure how you could watch this years games and not think something is off. Most of you will think they were so awesome, the best you’ve ever seen!!!!

Its WWE to me.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/02/when-its-legal-to-rig-a-sports-game-and-why-it-shouldnt-be/273152/

“The web of laws applicable to sports, such as the Sports Bribery Act of 1964, only prohibits gambling-related corruption. There is no federal law explicitly preventing the clandestine manipulation of sporting events to enhance suspense. This gap is problematic. As with certain televised quiz shows decades ago, the in-game action of sporting events can be contrived in profit-maximizing ways. The federal law passed in the wake of the Quiz Show Scandal does not explicitly include televised sports; it only forbids deception of the public in connection with contests of an "intellectual" nature. Wheel of Fortune, Jeopardy!, and Who Wants to Be A Millionaire are covered by the law. Football, basketball, and baseball are not.”

 

[dkp993]

Nutter.

* I kid I kid

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

While I don’t agree with your conclusion or everything in your premise, I have to say it’s kind of incredible how coincidental some of the penalties are that are called in sports. Especially late and close in NFL games. Phantom calls that cost teams wins or losses or send games to overtime. 

i think back to Super Bowls of yore - the penalty for a Darrell Jackson phantom push-off that cost the Seahawks a ring. Or the non-call in the Steelers Super Bowl for a blatant block in the back on the game-winning touchdown. Or 3 straight non-calls for DPI/DHolding against the Ravens in the  Harbowl.  Those were 3 game-changing, Super Bowl deciding calls/non-calls for sure. And if you go back and watch those games, they’re pretty obvious/blatant to even the casual observer. 

Happens in Basketball as well. Lakers/Warriors last Saturday, Dubs are up 3, there’s a few seconds on the clock, LeBron has the ball. Steph Curry runs straight to LeBron & immediately grabs his waist after he caught it, a clear intention to send him to the line for 2, where to have any shot he’d have to intentionally miss the 2nd free throw - a difficult & low % play. 

LeBron catches the ball, Steph clearly fouls him, and a full second later LaBron throws up a brick as time expires. And then a whistle’s blown for 3 free throws. 

wut

Steph Curry may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but let’s all agree that he is a very good basketball player with an extremely high basketball IQ. The chances of Curry fouling a 3 point shot there, up 3, at home, with time expiring in the 4th, are approximately 1 in 9 million. 

Ref was standing right there, too. The look on Steph’s face (and Kerr’s) could only be described as “incredulous”, and I was yelling “that’s BS!!” at my television.

It just seemed blatant that the red was trying to get the game to overtime. Fortunately ball don’t lie - LeBron missed the 1st free throw, the Lakers lost, and all was karmically right with that game.

All that said, I have not completely lost faith in football. I do not think the shenanigans rise to WWE level.

I am dismayed when teams tank, but I also understand why they do. If the NFL takes serious action against Ross for attempting to fix games, I’ll be more confident. 
 

ETA: just found this video. I’d forgotten there was also a bogus holding call in that Seahawks/Pittsburgh game. Madden was baffled by both calls. 
https://youtu.be/ZyQ2QLiZ4vU

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Cowboy’s fan

* I kid I kid

FIFY

*I also kid

 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Im sure most will laugh this off and call me a nutter but once I found this it confirmed it.

I'm not calling you a nutter, but I admit I am confused what was confirmed for you by an editorial from nine years ago in which the author says, "To be sure, this concern is as of now hypothetical. Outside of areas like World Wrestling Entertainment matches—which are obviously scripted—evidence of sports outcomes being manipulated to juice fans' reactions is scant."  

 

[Chapelboy]

I lean towards the refs are lousy because the NFL's bloated rulebook has  possibly caused these guys to brainlock at key times.  I believe they're still part time as well, not sure if that plays a role.  Also the game is so much bigger and faster than before, a lot of refs seem too young or too old...I don't know, just spitballin here.  If the fix is in, it just seems too perfect for them to be able to orchestrate when to make a bad call or not, what with these 3 point games.

Sidenote: as a Cowboy fan, I ALWAYS feel unexcited and done with football about this time of year..

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Sidenote: as a Cowboy fan, I ALWAYS feel unexcited and done with football about this time of year..

Remember back in the day when your cowboys & my Niners were battling out NFC championships & we’d be sitting around in February heckling each other about which of our teams would be in the Super Bowl next season? 

Good times.  

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm not calling you a nutter, but I admit I am confused what was confirmed for you by an editorial from nine years ago in which the author says, "To be sure, this concern is as of now hypothetical. Outside of areas like World Wrestling Entertainment matches—which are obviously scripted—evidence of sports outcomes being manipulated to juice fans' reactions is scant."  

We don’t have any concrete evidence. There has been no admission. At least not by anybody with rock solid proof. You can Google and find out former players such as Dwight Smith, Benny Cunningham and Larry Johnson all suggesting that games are manipulated. 

I don’t think players and coaches would be involved because many of them can’t see past next week and they would absolutely let the cat out of the bag. If players were involved it wouldn’t be all of them.

I mean I said in my original post, I can’t prove it but the feeling that the games are manipulated is enough that the little boy in me just can’t be bothered with it anymore.

Im not alone. Credible or not there are thousands of comments on the dozens and dozens of YouTube videos saying what I am saying. I dont even think most of them show evidence but a very few do. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

If it was rigged for excitement they probably would've let America's Team take one more shot at the end zone on Wild Card Weekend after their QB inexplicably ran a 15-second play with 14 seconds left in the game.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

If it was rigged for excitement they probably would've let America's Team take one more shot at the end zone on Wild Card Weekend after their QB inexplicably ran a 15-second play with 14 seconds left in the game.

 The ref did play around with the ball quite a bit.
 

The Cowboys don’t need to win anything to get extra eyeballs. If we wanna go full nutter- Goodell prolly didn’t take kindly to Jerry questioning his salary. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

 The ref did play around with the ball quite a bit.
 

The Cowboys don’t need to win anything to get extra eyeballs. If we wanna go full nutter- Goodell prolly didn’t take kindly to Jerry questioning his salary. 

I remember back when Dallas used to get calls, but now it seems like the worms have turned. Against each other that is.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

 The ref did play around with the ball quite a bit.

only because Dak seemingly forgot the rules of football.  

a discussion for another topic that was already  but I don’t see that as an example of a rigged game. 

 

[identikit]

Remember back in the day when your cowboys & my Niners were battling out NFC championships & we’d be sitting around in February heckling each other about which of our teams would be in the Super Bowl next season? 

Good times.  

They were all rigged...

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

They were all rigged...

 

 

[Dr_Zaius]

I would put the chance of the NFL being rigged in a WWE-style, we know the outcome way to be almost nil, simply because there would be too many people who would have to know and keep their mouths shut.  That being said, I think out of the major sports leagues the NFL is probably the one where it would be easiest for a rogue referee to affect the outcome of a game in a way that would be almost completely undetectable.  There are so many subjective calls that have to be made or not made during a game, and in some of these situations the decision has a large amount of leverage on the outcome.  Think of the defensive hold that negates an interception or extends a drive on 3rd and 20.  Or the offensive hold that shuts down a promising looking drive in its tracks.  It's a cliche that there's holding on every play, so when the replay is shown there's going to be something there that you can at least argue should be called.  The penalty stats don't even have to look one sided - sprinkle in a defensive hold against the team you want to win at a time where it's almost meaningless (e.g., 1st and 10 at your own 25).  Only someone who watched the game extremely closely would be able to see the pattern, and even then would probably just be accused of being biased / a homer.  I think a referee could easily move a 50/50 game to 70/30 or 80/20 if for some reason he was so inclined.  That isn't to say that it is occurring with regularity, just that it is possible. 

A lot of what people think indicates rigging could just be refs being human and being caught up with the crowd.  How many times in basketball do you see a team on a big run, and the team that's reeling has someone drive the lane and there is bang-bang contact as he scores?  From my experience this is called a charge an absolutely ridiculous amount of the time compared to a similar play in any other circumstance.  You can almost see the ref winding up in your mind's eye as the play unfolds, getting ready to signal the charge as the crowd goes crazy with excitement.

 

[skol asylum]

Like most conspiracy theories this one has the tiniest of chances to be true because people can't keep their mouths shut and keep a secret.

 

[Chaka]

I think the simplest answer is being a referee is an incredibly difficult and highly subjective job.

There are good, bad & missed calls in every NFL game. Probably every play.

Far more likely than a conspiracy.

A conspiracy involving more than one person will always be uncovered.

ETA: To be fair maybe the unreleased 60k WFT emails contain the paper trail for game manipulation. So let's all root for the Congressional investigation.

 

[-OZ-]

I think the simplest answer is being a referee is an incredibly difficult and highly subjective job.

There are good, bad & missed calls in every NFL game. Probably every play.

Far more likely than a conspiracy.

A conspiracy involving more than one person will always be uncovered.

Exactly this. 
How many here, if we’re being completely honest, can say they’ve never made a mistake at work? Now imagine everything is happening at the speed of an NFL game. I know I’ve made mistakes in the middle of a hearing or misspoke while providing advice. It doesn’t happen often but it has happened. The good thing for me is those are fixable, I simply correct myself and move on. 
that was the biggest issue with the bengals TD in the super bowl. Botched call can happen, but that it wasn’t reviewable is ridiculous. 

As for the games being scripted, I don’t buy it. There are problems to fix and I do understand falling out of love with watching a sport. It happened to me with baseball a long time ago, hockey and the NBA a while ago. I’ll watch my Jayhawks but almost only in March. If not for FF I could see losing interest in the NFL. 

 

[-OZ-]

We don’t have any concrete evidence. There has been no admission. At least not by anybody with rock solid proof. You can Google and find out former players such as Dwight Smith, Benny Cunningham and Larry Johnson all suggesting that games are manipulated. 

I don’t think players and coaches would be involved because many of them can’t see past next week and they would absolutely let the cat out of the bag. If players were involved it wouldn’t be all of them.

I mean I said in my original post, I can’t prove it but the feeling that the games are manipulated is enough that the little boy in me just can’t be bothered with it anymore.

Im not alone. Credible or not there are thousands of comments on the dozens and dozens of YouTube videos saying what I am saying. I dont even think most of them show evidence but a very few do. 

Otoh, Aaron Rodgers is probably getting wealthy betting against himself in the Playoffs. 
 

kidding! 

 

[belljr]

If the NFL is rigged to keep Dallas irrelevant then I'm all for it

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

What I don't get about these conspiracy theories is how exactly does the manipulation work? Is Goodell sitting in his office with a magic button like in the old Buffalo Wild Wings commercials? Do they tell the refs ahead of time to give a certain team a close call late in the game? And how do they know it will be decisive? Like in the SB, let's assume that the holding call on Kupp was the league's way of rigging the ending to ensure the Rams won. First of all, if that were the case, why would they call offsetting penalties a few plays later when they could have just let Kupp's TD stand? Also, the Bengals very nearly drove down the field to win/tie the game in the final seconds, and it was only two superhuman plays by Donald, with no help from the refs, that clinched the win. What would have happened if they had gone through all that effort to fix the game and then Burrow had blown up their plans by hitting Chase for a bomb TD?

I think ultimately there is no way to rig a high-profile sporting event that wouldn't be obvious in the moment and easily discoverable afterward. Consider that the 1919 World Series took place in a very different era in which organized crime was much more powerful, and it was still a huge anomaly. Rumors of the fix abounded before the Series even began, observers spotted lots of shady plays as they were happening, and the conspiracy quickly unraveled. Yet we're supposed to believe that, in a world where there are far more digital paper trails and any insider with a phone can become a celebrity overnight by exposing a scandal, no one has ever produced a shred of proof regarding match fixing? 

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

What I don't get about these conspiracy theories is how exactly does the manipulation work? Is Goodell sitting in his office with a magic button like in the old Buffalo Wild Wings commercials? Do they tell the refs ahead of time to give a certain team a close call late in the game? And how do they know it will be decisive? Like in the SB, let's assume that the holding call on Kupp was the league's way of rigging the ending to ensure the Rams won. First of all, if that were the case, why would they call offsetting penalties a few plays later when they could have just let Kupp's TD stand? Also, the Bengals very nearly drove down the field to win/tie the game in the final seconds, and it was only two superhuman plays by Donald, with no help from the refs, that clinched the win. What would have happened if they had gone through all that effort to fix the game and then Burrow had blown up their plans by hitting Chase for a bomb TD?

I think ultimately there is no way to rig a high-profile sporting event that wouldn't be obvious in the moment and easily discoverable afterward. Consider that the 1919 World Series took place in a very different era in which organized crime was much more powerful, and it was still a huge anomaly. Rumors of the fix abounded before the Series even began, observers spotted lots of shady plays as they were happening, and the conspiracy quickly unraveled. Yet we're supposed to believe that, in a world where there are far more digital paper trails and any insider with a phone can become a celebrity overnight by exposing a scandal, no one has ever produced a shred of proof regarding match fixing? 

A few timely penalties here and there can drastically change a game. I don’t think games are fixed- just manipulated in real time for suspense. I think it’s possible they do things when opportunities present themselves. 
 

All I’m saying is something smells fishy and I think they’re getting sloppy. 

 

[Da Guru]

I know a former SEC official very well. We have talked for hours about game and calls. The guy now is a replay official for the BIG.

I remember he told me that Les Miles when he was at LSU thought my friend was always making bad calls against LSU on purpose.  He told me when he and the crew are doing games they never talk about who is playing, of if Bama is losing or winning at the time of a call.   Said they all are filmed and graded every game and that he never cared who won or lost just that he made the right call in his mind. I have  to think most if not all refs are the same.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I know a former SEC official very well. We have talked for hours about game and calls. The guy now is a replay official for the BIG.

I remember he told me that Les Miles when he was at LSU thought my friend was always making bad calls against LSU on purpose.  He told me when he and the crew are doing games they never talk about who is playing, of if Bama is losing or winning at the time of a call.   Said they all are filmed and graded every game and that he never cared who won or lost just that he made the right call in his mind. I have  to think most if not all refs are the same.

A member of my league is a local baseball umpire. He takes his job very, very seriously. I made him my co-commish because he’s absolutely unimpeachable. 

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I know a former SEC official very well. We have talked for hours about game and calls. The guy now is a replay official for the BIG.

I remember he told me that Les Miles when he was at LSU thought my friend was always making bad calls against LSU on purpose.  He told me when he and the crew are doing games they never talk about who is playing, of if Bama is losing or winning at the time of a call.   Said they all are filmed and graded every game and that he never cared who won or lost just that he made the right call in his mind. I have  to think most if not all refs are the same.

Most dudes won’t admit that they cheat on their spouse either. 
 

 

[barackdhouse]

Yeah it is all for the honor and the love of the game until a gangster offers you a choice you can't refuse. I kid because even the mob knows it is actually really difficult to influence games in a meaningful way *and get away with it.* Sure it is easy (enough) to get to a ref and get them onboard but tougher to pull it off successfully. And especially on such a large stage. But not a crazy possibility.

The NBA had a few refs do it for a few years and I don't think it is out of the question for the NFL. At all. 

 

[Bigboy10182000]

The NBA had a few refs do it for a few years and I don't think it is out of the question for the NFL. At all.

Tim Donaghy comes to mind. His allegations and what he’s talked about in his book are eye opening. It would be incredibly naive to think this doesn’t happen in all sports IMO. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

A few timely penalties here and there can drastically change a game. I don’t think games are fixed- just manipulated in real time for suspense. I think it’s possible they do things when opportunities present themselves. 

Manipulated by who? Goodell?

Let's actually think through the mechanics here: Roger Goodell, who earns $63.9M per year to run the nation's most popular sport, is worried that, left to their own devices, football games will be boring. So he engages in a grand conspiracy with members of an adversarial unionized workforce (don't you think having enormous blackmail leverage over the commissioner might come in handy the next time the league tries to lock out the refs?) to make certain phantom calls during games, just to gin up excitement? All this despite knowing that, if word ever got out, it could jeopardize his enormous salary, destroy the sport for a generation, and expose him to enormous civil and criminal liabilities? And he's taking all those risks to ensure that a sport that already has plenty of excitement -- it's not like the Chiefs and Bills needed help from the refs to give us one of the most exciting games of our lifetimes -- has just a teeny bit more? Do I have that right?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Tim Donaghy comes to mind. His allegations and what he’s talked about in his book are eye opening. It would be incredibly naive to think this doesn’t happen in all sports IMO. 

Donaghy was a corrupt ref who manipulated games at the margins -- ensuring certain players got more free throws, etc -- in order to enrich himself. I seem to recall reading a piece a few years later, I think on ESPN.com, arguing that the league got away with blaming it all on Donaghy and sweeping evidence that other refs may have participated under the rug, which I find plausible. But that's still a far cry from a sports league actively engaging in a conspiracy to manipulate games.

 

[renesauz]

 The ref did play around with the ball quite a bit.
 

You lose no small amount of credibility with this statement. The REF MUST, by rule, touch the ball and declare it ready for play...and the Cowboys practically boxed him out and tried to snap it without him doing his job. That's 100% ON THE COWBOYS, not the zebras. Dumb play call, even worse execution.

The games aren't fixed. The refs are simply human. It's pretty obvious they tend to swallow the whistle late in big games, and as such there have been some bad no-calls on obvious penalties, but I think this is a misguided attempt to NOT influence the game, not to influence it. The bad calls happen in every quarter of every game, big and small. They don't happen any more often at the end of big games then they do at the beginning of the unimportant games.

Full time refs MIGHT help a little with it, but I doubt it would make much difference. They're human

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

You lose no small amount of credibility with this statement. The REF MUST, by rule, touch the ball and declare it ready for play...and the Cowboys practically boxed him out and tried to snap it without him doing his job. That's 100% ON THE COWBOYS, not the zebras. Dumb play call, even worse execution.

The games aren't fixed. The refs are simply human. It's pretty obvious they tend to swallow the whistle late in big games, and as such there have been some bad no-calls on obvious penalties, but I think this is a misguided attempt to NOT influence the game, not to influence it. The bad calls happen in every quarter of every game, big and small. They don't happen any more often at the end of big games then they do at the beginning of the unimportant games.

Full time refs MIGHT help a little with it, but I doubt it would make much difference. They're human

Yes, I know dude. It was tongue in cheek. I’m not a blind homer to my Cowboys, they stink. 
 

I don’t gain/lose anything for having an opinion. I’m not here to sway others. I made my declaration. The NFL is not 100% on the level. 
 

Believe it…..or not.  
 

 

[bro1ncos]

If you believe that referees at any level above high school can be involved in play, watch all the keys they are responsible for, make multiple split second decisions during a play AND time to decide to make those decisions on which way to enforce that call so it benefits the proper team that they are cheating for to win, then the accuser has never officiated above a pee wee league level.

I am also amazed that being a referee/umpire for multiple years and multiple sports at the collegiate level,  I have came across 100s of teams/coaches complain that they never get any calls. Always the same. I have yet to come across a team/coach that says they get all the calls. There has to be one or two teams out there that is getting all these calls. It is impossible for all teams to have all the calls be against them.

 

[habsfan]

I can certainly see how these sentiments persist. There are the late game calls that have been mentioned and that's against the backdrop of the sometimes inexplicable momentum shifts that happen in games. It has to be hard for casual fans to reconcile how offences / defences can dominate for long stretches and then suddenly can't make a single play. To be clear, I don't believe this is happening but games like KC - CIN where Mahomes comes back after half time and seemingly can't remember which shoe goes on which foot do leave the door open for some to speculate.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

-Let's start with the NFL outlawing hits to the head which extended into a WR now being able to catch the ball, secure it and take a step before they can be touched by a DB or at least it would appear that way. When that started happening we started a trend where close games or most NFL games become a circus of mystery in the final minutes of so many football games. Even down 1 score or less most teams abandon the run late in football games and assume they have a decent chance of drawing DPI on one of there throws, automatic FD. 

-Yellow laundry or personal flags for numerous violations which extend to the QB taking almost any touch foul and gets a call for 15 yards. These flags or calls can be manipulated by the Offense and yes sometimes the Defense. 

I would aim your fire at Roger Goodell and focus on what would fix this problem vs trying to prove the NFL is rigging football games although i liked your OP and stand with you that something seems off. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

You lose no small amount of credibility with this statement. The REF MUST, by rule, touch the ball and declare it ready for play...and the Cowboys practically boxed him out and tried to snap it without him doing his job. That's 100% ON THE COWBOYS, not the zebras. Dumb play call, even worse execution.

The games aren't fixed. The refs are simply human. It's pretty obvious they tend to swallow the whistle late in big games, and as such there have been some bad no-calls on obvious penalties, but I think this is a misguided attempt to NOT influence the game, not to influence it. The bad calls happen in every quarter of every game, big and small. They don't happen any more often at the end of big games then they do at the beginning of the unimportant games.

Full time refs MIGHT help a little with it, but I doubt it would make much difference. They're human

I took a class in college that talked about games and officials.   There are always 3 aspects to every game.  The teams playing and the officials or umpires.  Any one of the 3 can have impact on the outcome. Be it with great plays by the players and good calls, or bad plays and errors by the players and bad calls. 

Players do not want to drop a sure TD pass, or a sure INT (Like SF did) that impacts the outcome.

 I highly doubt any official or umpire wants to make an incorrect call that impacts the results of games as well.

 

[sheerterror]

I can see this either way.  

On one hand, the idea of 'fixing' a game like football that involves the randomized acts of 22 different players simultaneously seems completely implausible.  Sure, refs could make calls to influence situations better, especially late in games, but much like fixing a basketball game where the player still has to make the shot, these players - "in on it" or not, still have to execute some sort of highly skilled athletic feat for the influence to even end up mattering.  

On the other hand, nothing surprises me anymore.  This has [almost] always been a multibillion dollar enterprise, and how many of those exist without some form of nefarious activity?  I've got a friend that was a coach on the sidelines in the NFL/Power 5 NCAA for over 15 years.  He swears that throughout his career, he's seen completely inexplicable things - coaching decisions, calls/non calls, player execution or lack thereof - both for and against his teams, that has him believing that manipulation may take place.  I just came across a book published in 1989 called Interference - How Organized Crime Influences Professional Football.  It's 700+ pages. 

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

that something seems off. 

This is all Im saying. I cant prove it. I cant point to anything definitively. Im just saying my intuition (which is pretty good, IMO), says something is off. 

 

[daveR]

I think the simplest answer is being a referee is an incredibly difficult and highly subjective job.

There are good, bad & missed calls in every NFL game. Probably every play.

Far more likely than a conspiracy.

A conspiracy involving more than one person will always be uncovered.

ETA: To be fair maybe the unreleased 60k WFT emails contain the paper trail for game manipulation. So let's all root for the Congressional investigation.

Angles.  Officiating is all about angles and being in the right place to make a call, looking the right direction.  Then, after you get it all right, someone passes between you & the action!  

 

[Chaka]

This is all Im saying. I cant prove it. I cant point to anything definitively. Im just saying my intuition (which is pretty good, IMO), says something is off. 

When was the last time you had your intuition calibrated?

 

[Da Guru]

Tim Donaghy comes to mind. His allegations and what he’s talked about in his book are eye opening. It would be incredibly naive to think this doesn’t happen in all sports IMO. 

That is not a bad call, that was gambling for personal gain.  A criminal offense.

 

[Chaka]

The human brain is essentially a pattern recognition machine. It's how we came to be the dominant species on the planet.

It also commonly manufactures patterns that don't exist.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Which owners sign off on allowing their team the inability to pull away and win a lopsided contest in order for the game to be suspenseful to the fans watching?? And how much money are the owners being allotted in return for throwing their players under the bus?

 

[Joe Schmo]

Also curious where Goodell fits into this smoke show...

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The NBA had a few refs do it for a few years and I don't think it is out of the question for the NFL. At all. 

Tim Donaghy - yeah, that dude was a problem.

but worth noting, on some of the most controversial games, Donaghy wasn’t reffing.

My dad is convinced that the NBA was rigged. I’ll never forget watching the Lakers/Kings game 6 in 2002 with him (a Dubs fan who grew up in Sac, so he has a soft spot for the kings) - the 4th quarter was so, so, sooooo badly officiated, all in heavy favor of the Lakers. Scot Pollard had fouled out in only 11 mins of play, every one a ticky tacky nothing foul. That was bizarre & impactful.   The most egregious non-call was on an inbounds by the Kings with seconds on the clock, Derek Fisher essentially tackled (I forget who the recipient of the inbound was) and no whistle was blown. It was insane. Fisher took him to the hardwood and the refs swallowed their whistles. He turned to me & said, “the fix is in”. That was the most disgusted I’ve ever seen my father, and I’m pretty sure he skipped game 7 & never watched another basketball game. 

The officiating in that game was so poor and so heavily favoring the Lakers in the 4th quarter that Ralph Nader later called for an investigation.

Now - Donaghy was a criminal POS who got caught, and it’s hard to take all of his allegations at face value, because he was a scumbag who had every reason to allege that the NBA had instructed him to officiate badly (and “star treatment” was a widely accepted concept of officiating back then).

But I have no doubt that some of Donaghy’s allegations were true, at least for that era, and that particular game 6 seems to be validation of the desire of the NBA to have incredibly lucrative game 7s. 

I’m not sure it rose to the level of a massive conspiracy within basketball to rig games, as Donaghy alleged, but there was definitely some shady #### going on back in the day.

As for the NFL, the best thing they could do would be to eliminate the non-reviewable judgement call. DPI should absolutely be reviewable. It’s a clearly defined penalty that either did or did not happen. And when the resulting penalty yardage could be a 50, 60, 70+ yard advance of the ball to the opponent’s 1 yard line, that has to be reviewable by an off-field judge. I’d go so far with that one to make every DPI call automatic review just like turnovers and touchdowns. Because they can be just as impactful to a game’s outcome, and shouldn’t rest in the sole hands of the official who made a judgement call from 20’ away.

It’s certainly possible for an NFL ref to rig a game, but like Donaghy, I don’t believe there’s a vast conspiracy to rig games. As others have stated - too many people would have to stay silent, and as the adage goes, the only way for 3 people to keep a secret is if 2 of them are dead. 
 

ETA: while trying to find a clip of that play, I found this pretty well written analysis of the calls in that game 6 kings/lakers. It’s a good read, and the TLR conclusion was that it was badly officiated, but not rigged. 
http://www.82games.com/lakerskingsgame6.htm

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Tim Donaghy - yeah, that dude was a problem.

but worth noting, on some of the most controversial games, Donaghy wasn’t reffing.

My dad is convinced that the NBA was rigged. I’ll never forget watching the Lakers/Kings game 6 in 2002 with him (a Dubs fan who grew up in Sac, so he has a soft spot for the kings) - the 4th quarter was so, so, sooooo badly officiated, all in heavy favor of the Lakers. Scot Pollard had fouled out in only 11 mins of play, every one a ticky tacky nothing foul. That was bizarre & impactful.   The most egregious non-call was on an inbounds by the Kings with seconds on the clock, Derek Fisher essentially tackled (I forget who the recipient of the inbound was) and no whistle was blown. It was insane. Fisher took him to the hardwood and the refs swallowed their whistles. He turned to me & said, “the fix is in”. That was the most disgusted I’ve ever seen my father, and I’m pretty sure he skipped game 5 & never watched another basketball game. 

The officiating in that game was so poor and so heavily favoring the Lakers in the 4th quarter that Ralph Nader later called for an investigation.

Now - Donaghy was a criminal POS who got caught, and it’s hard to take all of his allegations at face value, because he was a scumbag who had every reason to allege that the NBA had instructed him to officiate badly (and “star treatment” was a widely accepted concept of officiating back then).

But I have no doubt that some of Donaghy’s allegations were true, at least for that era, and that particular game 6 seems to be validation of the desire of the NBA to have incredibly lucrative game 7s. 

I’m not sure it rose to the level of a massive conspiracy within basketball to rig games, as Donaghy alleged, but there was definitely some shady #### going on back in the day.

As for the NFL, the best thing they could do would be to eliminate the non-reviewable judgement call. DPI should absolutely be reviewable. It’s a clearly defined penalty that either did or did not happen. And when the resulting penalty yardage could be a 50, 60, 70+ yard advance of the ball to the opponent’s 1 yard line, that has to be reviewable by an off-field judge. I’d go so far with that one to make every DPI call automatic review just like turnovers and touchdowns. Because they can be just as impactful to a game’s outcome, and shouldn’t rest in the sole hands of the official who made a judgement call from 20’ away.

It’s certainly possible for an NFL ref to rig a game, but like Donaghy, I don’t believe there’s a vast conspiracy to rig games. As others have stated - too many people would have to stay silent, and as the adage goes, the only way for 3 people to keep a secret is if 2 of them are dead. 
 

ETA: while trying to find a clip of that play, I found this pretty well written analysis of the calls in that game 6 kings/lakers. It’s a good read, and the TLR conclusion was that it was badly officiated, but not rigged. 
http://www.82games.com/lakerskingsgame6.htm

I am a ardent Kobe Bryant fan and at that time a Laker fan and even I knew that game was shady AF. I certainly turned a blind eye to it because my team and favorite player one but many years later I have no issue saying how incredibly lopsided it was. The kings got robbed.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The kings got robbed.

10000%

That was their last, and best chance at winning it all, and they got hosed. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's can sometimes be dangerous to assume reasonable behavior. But that's my reason why I put zero stock in there being anything fishy going on.

There are billions upon billions of dollars to lose if they get caught.

And in today's world with every single person having a camera and recorder in their pocket, I don't see any way they wouldn't be caught. 

The upside of possibly making the game more exciting simply is dwarfed by the downside of being caught. 

So I don't see any way.

One note, this is pretty serious stuff. I don't want this forum to be a place where we accuse people and businesses of highly illegal and damaging things based just "because". Please don't. Ask questions and have a discussion. But please be careful there. 

 

[Gally]

As for the NFL, the best thing they could do would be to eliminate the non-reviewable judgement call. DPI should absolutely be reviewable. It’s a clearly defined penalty that either did or did not happen. And when the resulting penalty yardage could be a 50, 60, 70+ yard advance of the ball to the opponent’s 1 yard line, that has to be reviewable by an off-field judge. I’d go so far with that one to make every DPI call automatic review just like turnovers and touchdowns. Because they can be just as impactful to a game’s outcome, and shouldn’t rest in the sole hands of the official who made a judgement call from 20’ away.

Wasn't this tried for a year or two and it failed miserably?  I think there was some debate on how "clearly defined" it really was for the purposes of replay review.  Basically every deep ball thrown has PI by the letter of the law.  

 

[zed2283]

While I don’t agree with your conclusion or everything in your premise, I have to say it’s kind of incredible how coincidental some of the penalties are that are called in sports. Especially late and close in NFL games. Phantom calls that cost teams wins or losses or send games to overtime. 

i think back to Super Bowls of yore - the penalty for a Darrell Jackson phantom push-off that cost the Seahawks a ring. Or the non-call in the Steelers Super Bowl for a blatant block in the back on the game-winning touchdown. Or 3 straight non-calls for DPI/DHolding against the Ravens in the  Harbowl.  Those were 3 game-changing, Super Bowl deciding calls/non-calls for sure. And if you go back and watch those games, they’re pretty obvious/blatant to even the casual observer. 

Happens in Basketball as well. Lakers/Warriors last Saturday, Dubs are up 3, there’s a few seconds on the clock, LeBron has the ball. Steph Curry runs straight to LeBron & immediately grabs his waist after he caught it, a clear intention to send him to the line for 2, where to have any shot he’d have to intentionally miss the 2nd free throw - a difficult & low % play. 

LeBron catches the ball, Steph clearly fouls him, and a full second later LaBron throws up a brick as time expires. And then a whistle’s blown for 3 free throws. 

wut

Steph Curry may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but let’s all agree that he is a very good basketball player with an extremely high basketball IQ. The chances of Curry fouling a 3 point shot there, up 3, at home, with time expiring in the 4th, are approximately 1 in 9 million. 

Ref was standing right there, too. The look on Steph’s face (and Kerr’s) could only be described as “incredulous”, and I was yelling “that’s BS!!” at my television.

It just seemed blatant that the red was trying to get the game to overtime. Fortunately ball don’t lie - LeBron missed the 1st free throw, the Lakers lost, and all was karmically right with that game.

All that said, I have not completely lost faith in football. I do not think the shenanigans rise to WWE level.

I am dismayed when teams tank, but I also understand why they do. If the NFL takes serious action against Ross for attempting to fix games, I’ll be more confident. 
 

ETA: just found this video. I’d forgotten there was also a bogus holding call in that Seahawks/Pittsburgh game. Madden was baffled by both calls. 
https://youtu.be/ZyQ2QLiZ4vU

Call on Jackson was correct.  Maybe a little ticky-tacky, but it was OPI.

The holding call was bad, but if I remember correctly when they showed the replay from the referees angle it totally looked like holding.  Like someone said in the thread, much of officiating is angles (which is why I've never understood why they allow basketball referees trailing directly behind a play to call a foul on breakaways.  Every time.).

 

[Gally]

Call on Jackson was correct.  Maybe a little ticky-tacky, but it was OPI.

The holding call was bad, but if I remember correctly when they showed the replay from the referees angle it totally looked like holding.  Like someone said in the thread, much of officiating is angles (which is why I've never understood why they allow basketball referees trailing directly behind a play to call a foul on breakaways.  Every time.).

Maybe because they can see something from that angle that the ref in front of the play cannot see (push to back for example)?