Speed that is neither 40 time or build up, down-the-field kind. (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

Competitive, game speed.

Marqise Lee prompted this thought.

The most artificial thing about the 40 is it is from a stop. Sometimes it works that way, but Lee seems to have an extra gear when he is going after the ball or being chased by defenders in the open field. Perhaps there are other good examples that are vets or from the rookie class, and from other positions.

 

[ghostguy123]

You mean the 40, a Sprint from a stand still in shorts in a straight line is worthless?? I agree.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I loved reading Road and Track and all those other car mags as a kid. Everytime they do a review, they'd do a 0-60 and 5-60 rolling start times. Maybe they should do something like this for players. Also, it would be a good idea for the combine to recreate as much game type situations as possible, like making the WRs run through a dummy so they can simulate an attempted jam. But any of these ideas are just synthetic since ultimately game performance is the most important and it can't be replicated outside of a game.

 

[EBF]

I don't think Lee has an extra gear on the field. He's not some kind of a burner. He had a long catch-and-run against Arizona in 2012 where he caught the ball in stride with about a yard of separation between him and the chasing defender. He proceeded to take it about 50 yards to the house, but during that time the gap between him and the DB didn't really grow it all. He was juuust fast enough to stay out of reach. When you see a real sprinter like Thomas Tyner or Ted Ginn get into space, forget about it. Once they hit their stride they pull away from everyone on the field. I don't think Lee is like that.

I think there are a few things at work though. 40 times are run out of a track stance. Receivers come off the line in a much different stance. So if you have someone with legitimate speed, but horrible starting technique out of a track stance, it's going to kill his time in the 40. I think that probably explains how guys like Chad Johnson and Bernard Berrian could run pedestrian 40 times and then consistently burn people deep on the football field. Chad Johnson averaged something like 21 yards per catch in his one season at Oregon State. I think he ran something like a 4.61 at the combine. That time doesn't make any sense and isn't an accurate reflection of his game speed. Another example would be Andre Ellington last year. His time was a total lie.

The other issue is that 40 times measure 40 yard speed, whereas football is really played in smaller windows. You're not going to run a lot of 40 yard routes in a football game. If you're a wide receiver, a lot of the work you do will be within the first 10-15 yards of the LOS. That means that acceleration and quickness are a lot more important than flat out speed. It's more about how quickly you get up to a decent speed than it is about being the fastest guy on the field. I think that's why a guy like Keenan Allen can be successful despite having a slow top speed. He accelerates quickly and has good quickness/fluidity in his routes.

Finally, it's important to remember that there aren't as many elite sprinters out there as we sometimes think. If you run a 4.50, you're going to be faster than almost every linebacker you'll ever face. You'll be faster than a lot of safeties and even a fair amount of corners. In any given week, there may only be 2-3 guys on the other side of the ball who can catch you in a dead sprint. So if you get a little bit of space, you're still going to be break a lot of big plays.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I don't think Lee has an extra gear on the field. He's not some kind of a burner. He had a long catch-and-run against Arizona in 2012 where he caught the ball in stride with about a yard of separation between him and the chasing defender. He proceeded to take it about 50 yards to the house, but during that time the gap between him and the DB didn't really grow it all. He was juuust fast enough to stay out of reach. When you see a real sprinter like Thomas Tyner or Ted Ginn get into space, forget about it. Once they hit their stride they pull away from everyone on the field. I don't think Lee is like that.

I think there are a few things at work though. 40 times are run out of a track stance. Receivers come off the line in a much different stance. So if you have someone with legitimate speed, but horrible starting technique out of a track stance, it's going to kill his time in the 40. I think that probably explains how guys like Chad Johnson and Bernard Berrian could run pedestrian 40 times and then consistently burn people deep on the football field. Chad Johnson averaged something like 21 yards per catch in his one season at Oregon State. I think he ran something like a 4.61 at the combine. That time doesn't make any sense and isn't an accurate reflection of his game speed. Another example would be Andre Ellington last year. His time was a total lie.

The other issue is that 40 times measure 40 yard speed, whereas football is really played in smaller windows. You're not going to run a lot of 40 yard routes in a football game. If you're a wide receiver, a lot of the work you do will be within the first 10-15 yards of the LOS. That means that acceleration and quickness are a lot more important than flat out speed. It's more about how quickly you get up to a decent speed than it is about being the fastest guy on the field. I think that's why a guy like Keenan Allen can be successful despite having a slow top speed. He accelerates quickly and has good quickness/fluidity in his routes.

Finally, it's important to remember that there aren't as many elite sprinters out there as we sometimes think. If you run a 4.50, you're going to be faster than almost every linebacker you'll ever face. You'll be faster than a lot of safeties and even a fair amount of corners. In any given week, there may only be 2-3 guys on the other side of the ball who can catch you in a dead sprint. So if you get a little bit of space, you're still going to be break a lot of big plays.

You are right, it has been documented, CIN took Johnson because his game speed was more like a sub-4.4, they realized he didn't have the start technique of an experienced track sprinter and wisely accounted for that.

Torry Holt was faster than many DBs tasked with covering him because he could cut at full speed and maintain it throughout the route.

Some faster 40-types might be running full out in drills but they might not be able to do that under control in game conditions. Lee might be able to replicate his speed in games and remain able to run under control as a functional WR. That is more important than the running in a straight line on a track in shorts variant.

 

[Milkman]

The other issue is that 40 times measure 40 yard speed, whereas football is really played in smaller windows. You're not going to run a lot of 40 yard routes in a football game. If you're a wide receiver, a lot of the work you do will be within the first 10-15 yards of the LOS. That means that acceleration and quickness are a lot more important than flat out speed. It's more about how quickly you get up to a decent speed than it is about being the fastest guy on the field. I think that's why a guy like Keenan Allen can be successful despite having a slow top speed. He accelerates quickly and has good quickness/fluidity in his routes.

That's why Allen Robinson's 4.6 doesn't kill his value. He ran 7.00 in the cone, 4.00 in the 20 yard shuttle, 11.36 in the 60 yard shuttle, and his 10 yard split in the 40 was 1.54.........the same as Speedy Paul Richardson. Plus he's nearly 6'3 and he can jump out of the gym. LOL I have three 1st round picks and it doesn't feel like enough. Just a sick WR class.

 

[EBF]

The other issue is that 40 times measure 40 yard speed, whereas football is really played in smaller windows. You're not going to run a lot of 40 yard routes in a football game. If you're a wide receiver, a lot of the work you do will be within the first 10-15 yards of the LOS. That means that acceleration and quickness are a lot more important than flat out speed. It's more about how quickly you get up to a decent speed than it is about being the fastest guy on the field. I think that's why a guy like Keenan Allen can be successful despite having a slow top speed. He accelerates quickly and has good quickness/fluidity in his routes.

That's why Allen Robinson's 4.6 doesn't kill his value. He ran 7.00 in the cone, 4.00 in the 20 yard shuttle, 11.36 in the 60 yard shuttle, and his 10 yard split in the 40 was 1.54.........the same as Speedy Paul Richardson. Plus he's nearly 6'3 and he can jump out of the gym. LOL I have three 1st round picks and it doesn't feel like enough. Just a sick WR class.

Yea. It was interesting watching him sprint without the pads on. Most tall guys start slow and then build up speed as their long strides open up, but his stride doesn't really open. It's almost like he doesn't have the flexibility in his legs/hips to fully extend. So for a tall guy, I'd guess that his measured stride length during his peak speed would be very bad. But, as you said, his ten yard speed is adequate. So he's quick initially. He just doesn't build any speed once he gets going.

And that's consistent with the scouting reports and also the game clips, where he would get caught from behind.

 

[Milkman]

Yeah I just keep remembering the long TD he had against Ohio State (I think) where he reversed field, then cut across the field again, and beat the safety and DB to the end zone. That's why I thought he would run a little faster but he is def not a burner. Still those other times are really good and he's 220 pounds. It's going to be hard to defend what he does well.

 

[Xue]

They don't need to have players do a rolling start. You simply need to look at the 10-40 and 20-40 segments to get a better sense of their "true" speed.

A really bad start in the 10-yard will really destroy an overall 40 time.

Marqise Lee had a really good 10-yard split in my measurements, the same as Brandin Cooks, he just lost form after the last half.

Watkins had the same 10-40 and 20-40 splits as Cooks, but the same 10-yard split as Evans.

The guys with track experience have an advantage with the start. Cooks and Beckham probably had the best form out of the WRs.

The shorter guys, who we already knew were fast, also have an added advantage in the 10-yard. These guys who I have measured as legit 4.27 or better: Dri Archer, Jacoby Ford, Marquise Goodwin = All 5'9" or under.

Allen Robinson had horrible form throughout both his runs. I wouldn't put too much stock into it.

Most of these guys don't have really good "sprinting" form. They're basically using distance running form with a higher pace.

I'd simply have them run from a two-point stance. But then again, DL/OL and rush LBs operate primarily from a 3-point stance.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I loved reading Road and Track and all those other car mags as a kid. Everytime they do a review, they'd do a 0-60 and 5-60 rolling start times. Maybe they should do something like this for players. Also, it would be a good idea for the combine to recreate as much game type situations as possible, like making the WRs run through a dummy so they can simulate an attempted jam. But any of these ideas are just synthetic since ultimately game performance is the most important and it can't be replicated outside of a game.

Instincts definitely one of the most important traits at any position, and they can't be measured or tested at the combine, but only inferred through hints and glimmerings from their body of work and film.

 

[Bri]

For a couple years, Albert Haynesworth was freakishly fast in a manner you describe yet he weighed around 330-340. He once caught each Reggie Wayne and Greg Jennings from behind when he lined up as a DT. He could hit some QBs still in their drop and was a type of quickness you had to see the replay to appreciate.

Friends and I discuss young Michael Vick every now and then and how he just ran straight ahead and beat every Giant to the end zone. Literally no one could catch him and it was like instant speed.

Dante Hall is the fastest change of direction player ever IMO.

I've never seen a defender as "game speed fast" as Lawrence Taylor. Darrell Green or whomever ya want to throw out there...still think LT.

 

[Bob Magaw]

One bad thing about changing how they run the 40 is that it would break the continuity and linkage with historical times, which in part helps guide comp identification (of course we would still have the other drills and film for that)..

 

[Bri]

One bad thing about changing how they run the 40 is that it would break the continuity and linkage with historical times, which in part helps guide comp identification (of course we would still have the other drills and film for that)..

I'd like to see some Olympic stuff. Javelin throw, shotput, hurdles ...most of all (non olympic) an obstacle course. Re-enact a military or police academy one.

 

[ghostguy123]

Maybe they should have a madden tournament. Seems more relevant.

 

[Bad_Mo]

Kind of ridiculous how many just train for the combine events and most if them have nothing to do with football ability. Funny to see a big old lineman in spandex setting up on the 40 start line like he is Usain Bolt. Arizona Performance gets them ready to look the part though!

I've been a proponent of a second running drill measuring speed on routes for WRs and hitting holes for RBs. Who really cares about linemen and their times? LBs maybe doing a sideline to sideline drill.

 

[Xue]

Kind of ridiculous how many just train for the combine events and most if them have nothing to do with football ability. Funny to see a big old lineman in spandex setting up on the 40 start line like he is Usain Bolt. Arizona Performance gets them ready to look the part though!

I've been a proponent of a second running drill measuring speed on routes for WRs and hitting holes for RBs. Who really cares about linemen and their times? LBs maybe doing a sideline to sideline drill.

10-yard split is important for Lineman.

 

[jurb26]

The people who over think the 40 are media and fans. It's a standard baseline measure for which all players can be evaluated from. It's not meant to sway opinions of prospects. It's meant to confirm what is seen in game footage or pick up reasons for revaluation.

The positional drills are what matter most.

 

[Bob Magaw]

The people who over think the 40 are media and fans. It's a standard baseline measure for which all players can be evaluated from. It's not meant to sway opinions of prospects. It's meant to confirm what is seen in game footage or pick up reasons for revaluation.

The positional drills are what matter most.

For scheme reasons, scouts weren't sure how fast CB Dennard was. This was a reason he was one of the most anticipated prospects to see run at the combine. Scouts knew Greg Robinson was athletic, but not THAT athletic, so the 40 revealed additional information in his case.* Some organizations may weight the 40 more (Al Davis being the most cliched example).

 

[Gandalf]

I think players should run 40s in full pads.

 

[voiceofunreason]

Seems to me you have acceleration and top-end speed. Not sure there's a 3rd kind of speed.

If they really want to measure the top-end speed, I guess a radar detector or some kind of software should be able to track it. I'm not convinced that teams are as enamored with 40 times as the internet is though. I'm sure they have enough money to figure it out if they are though.

 

[Da Guru]

Anquin Boldin ran a 4.71 coming out of college, I doubt he could break 5.0 now. Somehow he is always open though.

I don`t understand getting into a track sprinters start, since the players are never in that position on the field. The DBs, RBs and WRs should have a standing start like they do in games. The OL and DL should only do a 20 or 10 yard time. If you saw Clowney his last 20 was his fastest. How many times is he going to be 30-40 yards down the field chasing a player?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

The Eagles (and possibly other teams) use tracking sensors on their players during practice and motion-sensor cameras that can continually record player movement (among other things) that would enable them to drill down to very specific data. The cameras are used in all NBA games in order to collect data, as well. I would think that the combine or individual teams would try to incorporate this as well.

 

[jurb26]

Anquin Boldin ran a 4.71 coming out of college, I doubt he could break 5.0 now. Somehow he is always open though.

I don`t understand getting into a track sprinters start, since the players are never in that position on the field. The DBs, RBs and WRs should have a standing start like they do in games. The OL and DL should only do a 20 or 10 yard time. If you saw Clowney his last 20 was his fastest. How many times is he going to be 30-40 yards down the field chasing a player?

I don't know how often it will happen, but Clowney did run down guys from 20+ yds on multiple occasions in college.

 

[Bri]

who can push the most weight on blocking dummy sled would be fun to see