Star Wars III SPOILERS discussion thread (2 Viewers)

[BGP]

New thread for SPOILER talk.

 

[BGP]

SkyRattlers asked in another thread about what I meant when I said Episode III opened up new possibilities.+ The origin of Anakin Skywalker is murkier than ever. As far as we knew he had no father. But Sidious told Anakin about how he had learned to make the midichlorians create life. This suggests that Anakin was in fact created by Sidious (or his master). HOWEVER, right at the end of the film we are told that Qui-Gon was actually much more powerful than anyone had realized - that he had mastered eternal life, never really died, and would be able to TRAIN Obi-Wan. It suggests that Qui-Gon actually had the powers that Sidious thought only belonged to him. It therefore opens up a possibility that Anakin was in fact created by Qui-Gon.+ The Jedi council beacon on Coruscant was reprogrammed by Obi-Wan. Instead of telling any remaining jedi to return to Coruscant, it now broadcasted a warning to stay away. Obi-Wan also noted that it will be incredibly difficult for the Empire to discover the reprogramming. Therefore, it opens up a world of possbilities for other Jedi to still be operating in secret.

 

[FinHead]

SkyRattlers asked in another thread about what I meant when I said Episode III opened up new possibilities.

+ The origin of Anakin Skywalker is murkier than ever. As far as we knew he had no father. But Sidious told Anakin about how he had learned to make the midichlorians create life. This suggests that Anakin was in fact created by Sidious (or his master). HOWEVER, right at the end of the film we are told that Qui-Gon was actually much more powerful than anyone had realized - that he had mastered eternal life, never really died, and would be able to TRAIN Obi-Wan. It suggests that Qui-Gon actually had the powers that Sidious thought only belonged to him. It therefore opens up a possibility that Anakin was in fact created by Qui-Gon.

+ The Jedi council beacon on Coruscant was reprogrammed by Obi-Wan. Instead of telling any remaining jedi to return to Coruscant, it now broadcasted a warning to stay away. Obi-Wan also noted that it will be incredibly difficult for the Empire to discover the reprogramming. Therefore, it opens up a world of possbilities for other Jedi to still be operating in secret.

+ He never verified that the other Sith Master that he was talking about (P.. something), was his... of course I thought he was also. But I thought he was talking about a Dark Force power to return someone to life or keep them alive... maybe like a Zombie. I think Qui-Gon discovered a Light Force power to communicate and keep his essence/soul around.+ The other Jedi probably leads to the Jedi Purge story, where Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader hunts down and destroy's the last of the Jedi.

 

[Mario Kart]

Anakin did not have a father. Shmi was never laid in order to have a child. The fact Palpatine eludes to the possibilities of someone controlling Midichrloians is in two parts. The first part is to give Anakin hope that he in essence has a father in the normal sense of the word and the other part is to deceive him. Palpatine is all about deception... even Anakin. We never see Palpatine's master as he had killed him in his sleep not that far before taking Maul as his apprentice but the timeline would make sense that Palpatine's master was in fact the person to control Shmi in creating Anakin. Qui-Gonn could not have done that as Shmi would have recognized him and this power would have to be done in close quaters... agreed?The Jedi beacon thing was never in doubt that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only Jedi left. The Galaxy is a big place and Jedi were all over. The Outer Rims were probably filled with many potentials as Anakin had been. Had Anakin been born in the Republic he would have been recognized early on... Qui-Gonn said this in Ep1. Jedi are all over but most do not have the control of the Force that the others have since they were never taught in the "proper" way.

 

[BGP]

Anakin did not have a father. Shmi was never laid in order to have a child. The fact Palpatine eludes to the possibilities of someone controlling Midichrloians is in two parts. The first part is to give Anakin hope that he in essence has a father in the normal sense of the word and the other part is to deceive him. Palpatine is all about deception... even Anakin. We never see Palpatine's master as he had killed him in his sleep not that far before taking Maul as his apprentice but the timeline would make sense that Palpatine's master was in fact the person to control Shmi in creating Anakin. Qui-Gonn could not have done that as Shmi would have recognized him and this power would have to be done in close quaters... agreed?

The Jedi beacon thing was never in doubt that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only Jedi left. The Galaxy is a big place and Jedi were all over. The Outer Rims were probably filled with many potentials as Anakin had been. Had Anakin been born in the Republic he would have been recognized early on... Qui-Gonn said this in Ep1. Jedi are all over but most do not have the control of the Force that the others have since they were never taught in the "proper" way.

I think you assume too much.Before Episode III, we were told that Anakin had no father. After episode III, we have officially opened up new possibilities. Either Qui-Gon, Sidious, or Sidious' master could have created Anakin. I did not say it all couldn't have been a lie -- I said this is now a possibility. You also cannot presume that Shmi would have recognized Qui-Gon. We don't know the mechanics of manipulating the midichlorians to create life. Yes, its possible it would have to be done in close quarters. But perhaps not. Perhaps it could be done far away. Perhaps Qui-Gon didn't even have to be on the same planet nor target Shmi in particular. Qui-Gon could have created several "chosen ones" and finally ran into one of his creations.

I don't understand your second paragraph.

 

[Night Hawks]

Already? Why not wait at least until the weekend?

 

[Night Hawks]

Already? Why not wait at least until the weekend?

And also, isn't there a thread right down the page to discuss?

 

[BGP]

Already? Why not wait at least until the weekend?

And also, isn't there a thread right down the page to discuss?

I didn't see any that specified SPOILERS, which is just a BIT important.

 

[snorlax]

Based on Qui-Gon's response upon finding out Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians, I highly doubt he was responsible.

 

[BGP]

Amazingly enough, the actual plot to Revenge of the Sith is extremely thin despite it being two and a half hours long. Basically, we start with Palpatine being "captured" and rescued. Then Anakin turns, Palpatine is exposed, the stormtroopers turn on the jedi, Palpatine becomes the Emperor as the Empire is offically created, lots of fights, and we set up for Episode IV.

If you know me, you know I believe that a great film makes sure to maintain the credibility of everyone involved. In particular, the bad guys need to be shown as strong and score key victories.

Let's look at the bad guys. The separatists get their butts kicked. Battle droids are dispatched with ease. Even R2D2 destroys two super battle droids, who were once so mighty they helped defeat jedi in Episode II. Anakin, still a padawan, defeats Darth Tyrannus cleanly. He is still a good guy at this point. So Tyrannus looks weak. Tyrannus does immobilize Obi-Wan, however, a point in his favor. Grieveous is a total pansy. He doesn't do anything but cough chronically and lose battles. Instead of fighting the jedi on the battleship, he cuts and runs. Later Obi-Wan meets him on another planet and kills him cleanly, and Grieveous had 4 lightsabers spinning!!! Sidious has to fight 4 jedi in a lightsaber battle. He kills 3 right at the start which are the equivalent of Star Trek cadets in red suits. Now its 1 on 1 vs Jedi Master Mace Windu. Mace Windu BEATS Sidious cleanly. But as he goes to strike the killing blow, Anakin surprises him by cutting off Mace's hand that holds his lightsaber. Now Sidious unleashes a terrifying shower of bolts and throws him out the window, dead. That was NOT a clean victory - he had to use trickery. Mace, in effect, got punked like a #####. I would have been more impressed if Anakin cut down Mace in a clean fight. Instead he backstabbed him. Next we come to the slaughter of the Jedi. Again this isn't clean, as the stormtroopers backstab all the Jedi and overwhelm them by numbers. Next is Yoda vs Sidious. This battle ends in a sort of draw, as both ended up falling out of control and out of sight of each other. Finally, we come to Vader vs Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan cuts him down cleanly. The beating is so bad he even gets to stand over Vader and give him one last lecture before walking off with his lightsaber.

So what do we have. Obi-Wan looks like a god. He beats Grieveous and Vader. Vader gets to backstab Mace Windu, the separtist commanders, and jedi children and loses his one staight-up fight vs Obi-Wan. Sidious fights to a loss and a draw.

You walk away from this feeling that the Sith are weak and the storyline isn't compelling.

If it was me, I'd have Vader seal his pact with Sidious by cutting down Mace Windu in a straight up fight. I would most definitely NOT have had Obi-Wan beat Vader cleanly like that. That's just horrible and makes Vader look like a weak character. I perhaps could have gone with Anakin cutting off Obi-Wan's hand/foot or something, winning the battle. However, something happens to separate them before Vader can finish the kill. Perhaps he is fated to being almost burned alive to seal his life as Vader.

Grade: C-, and I'm closer to giving it a D+ than a C.

 

[Night Hawks]

Already? Why not wait at least until the weekend?

And also, isn't there a thread right down the page to discuss?

I didn't see any that specified SPOILERS, which is just a BIT important.

Ahhh. I didn't click into the SW III and politics and just saw spoilers on the bottom. Didn't figure a SW thread was going to attempt to correlate our politics and SW with actual spoilers from the movie.Anyway, I guess the multiple threads should be expected considering it's been an anticipated movie for a few years.

 

[Mario Kart]

I think you assume too much.

I dont assume to much in this sense. On the contrary it sounds as if you need to have everything "told" to you or "explained" in order for you to believe it to be true. There are two possibilities in the creation of Anakin. The first is being Sideous as you pointed out but this possibility is rightly flawed by the fact Sidious learned everything from his Master. Thus the conclusion that his Master created Anakin using his new powers through the Dark Side. It is said plain as day in Episode III during the Opera scene, I belive it was that scene. Vader has a father but not in the sense that we all have fathers. Vader was created by a power attributed to the Dark Side and was not created in the same way Luke and Leia were. Sidious has learned nothing new from the Dark Side. He was taught everything but also failed in some aspects as well that his Master had not failed in. Thus the Master is more powerful then the apprentice with those two. My original 2nd paragraph is easy to understand. Jedi (kids with the ability) are born all over the galaxy but a fraction of them are only in the Republic and trained as such. Anakin was not born in the Republic and was found by virtual luck as probably many other Jedi were also born... in the more traditional sense of Jedi banging and not being created by the Sith. Is that hard to understand?

 

[Fallerjw]

+ He never verified that the other Sith Master that he was talking about (P.. something)

Darth Plagueis was Sidious' (Palpatine's) master and had control of the midichlorians enough to create life and prevent death.....at least that's the story.

 

[BGP]

Based on Qui-Gon's response upon finding out Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians, I highly doubt he was responsible.

I disagree. His expression was one of shock. But what was he thinking? Perhaps he was thinking, "Oh wow, did my experiment in manipulating the midichlorians to create life actually work?" He obviously would tell no-one. Possibly he wanted to make sure he took the boy as his padawan for that reason.

 

[BGP]

I think you assume too much.

I dont assume to much in this sense. On the contrary it sounds as if you need to have everything "told" to you or "explained" in order for you to believe it to be true.

But you must be open-minded like that. The first rule of fiction is "if there is no body, the person isn't dead". In other words, if things aren't explicitly spelled out for you, don't assume it.

 

[BGP]

+ He never verified that the other Sith Master that he was talking about (P.. something)

Darth Plagueis was Sidious' (Palpatine's) master and had control of the midichlorians enough to create life and prevent death.....at least that's the story.

Sidious says Plagueis has two special powers unique to him and his apprentice. The first one is to manipluate the midichlorians to create life. The second power is eternal life. However, Yoda reveals that Qui-Gon has mastered eternal life and will be able to train Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon is incredibly powerful, and we must consider that if he has eternal life, he may very well have the mastery over the midichlorians as well.

 

[Mario Kart]

Based on Qui-Gon's response upon finding out Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians, I highly doubt he was responsible.

I disagree. His expression was one of shock. But what was he thinking? Perhaps he was thinking, "Oh wow, did my experiment in manipulating the midichlorians to create life actually work?" He obviously would tell no-one. Possibly he wanted to make sure he took the boy as his padawan for that reason.

Shock in that he may have found the one to bring balence to the Force. A prohecy that was long standing and a virtual myth. Not that he created the boy.

 

[BGP]

Based on Qui-Gon's response upon finding out Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians, I highly doubt he was responsible.

I disagree. His expression was one of shock. But what was he thinking? Perhaps he was thinking, "Oh wow, did my experiment in manipulating the midichlorians to create life actually work?" He obviously would tell no-one. Possibly he wanted to make sure he took the boy as his padawan for that reason.

Shock in that he may have found the one to bring balence to the Force. A prohecy that was long standing and a virtual myth. Not that he created the boy.

We dont know why he looked shocked. We can't assume anything because its not expressly stated. Your version may be true, but as I said the possibility now exists that Qui-Gon was being sneaky. Don't forget - Qui-Gon was portrayed as very rebellious and someone who bends the rules quite often.

 

[Fallerjw]

+ He never verified that the other Sith Master that he was talking about (P.. something)

Darth Plagueis was Sidious' (Palpatine's) master and had control of the midichlorians enough to create life and prevent death.....at least that's the story.

Sidious says Plagueis has two special powers unique to him and his apprentice. The first one is to manipluate the midichlorians to create life. The second power is eternal life. However, Yoda reveals that Qui-Gon has mastered eternal life and will be able to train Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon is incredibly powerful, and we must consider that if he has eternal life, he may very well have the mastery over the midichlorians as well.

Qui-Gon was an average Jedi. I think what really happened was he figured out how to communicate after he died, not how to live eternally. Qui-Gon didn't appear in episodes 4-6 IIRC. That leads me to assume he didn't figure out eternal life. Also, doesn't Obi-Wan communicate with Luke after death? I think that's the power that Yoda was refering to.

 

[BGP]

+ He never verified that the other Sith Master that he was talking about (P.. something)

Darth Plagueis was Sidious' (Palpatine's) master and had control of the midichlorians enough to create life and prevent death.....at least that's the story.

Sidious says Plagueis has two special powers unique to him and his apprentice. The first one is to manipluate the midichlorians to create life. The second power is eternal life. However, Yoda reveals that Qui-Gon has mastered eternal life and will be able to train Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon is incredibly powerful, and we must consider that if he has eternal life, he may very well have the mastery over the midichlorians as well.

Qui-Gon was an average Jedi. I think what really happened was he figured out how to communicate after he died, not how to live eternally. Qui-Gon didn't appear in episodes 4-6 IIRC. That leads me to assume he didn't figure out eternal life. Also, doesn't Obi-Wan communicate with Luke after death? I think that's the power that Yoda was refering to.

In Episode I, Obi-Wan tells Qui-Gon that he would be on the Jedi council if he would stop being so rebellious. Your average jedi is not on the council. He's way above average.Yoda specifies Qui-Gon has learned the power of eternal life.

We don't know the mechanics of forming as an apparition. Can't assume anything from absence of an appearance.

 

[Twilight]

Obviously the eternal life was in spirit. Think to Star Wars. The fight between Obi-wan and Vader. At the end of the fight, Obi-wan tells Vader that if he strikes him down, he will become more powerful than he could imagine. That is the final result of Obi-wan's "training" that Yoda put him on the path to while watching Luke, and it requires death to transcend to the spiritual form.

 

[SkyRattlers]

BGP, I think you are in error giving Sidious a loss in his fight with Windu. It was pretty clear to me that he was merely setting the stage for Anakin. He could have killed Mace anytime he wanted to.How sad was Grievous though? A coughing droid? One who thinks he can be taught the Jedi lightsabre arts. You could almost see Obi-wan grin when the four lightsabres came out. How bad is the real estate market if they have to set up bases on volcanic planets?

 

[Fallerjw]

BGP, I think you are in error giving Sidious a loss in his fight with Windu. It was pretty clear to me that he was merely setting the stage for Anakin. He could have killed Mace anytime he wanted to.

I think you are right about that. Pretty clever, and I thought it was amazing that Palpatine was able to manipulate the Senate, the Separatists, Anakin and especially the Jedi all at the same time.

 

[BlueOnion]

All so interesting...

The creation of Anakin...It is strongly implied that Anakin was created and I assume it was by a Sith. Based on the story, I am fairly sure Sidious betrayed Plagueis long before Episode I even started so I don't think Plagueis created Anakin. I also don't think Qui-Gon created Anakin; I believe much of his path was 'thinking outside the box', which is far from mastering these 'outside the box' concepts. I am fairly sure Sidious created Anakin as part of his plan to overthrow the Republic. But those are just my thoughts.

Eternal Life...It is unclear how the Sith cheat life, but it is strongly implied. For the jedi, it is simply allowing the attachment of love into their lives, something Yoda and the Jedi Master's before him viewed as forbidden. And consequently was the reason Anakin, in the end, did bring balance to the galaxy (and force) and because of his love for his son, was able to transcend death.

Other Jedi... I don't think having the ability to use the force automatically makes somebody a Jedi. The Jedi are a sect of individuals who have force ability and believe in using the force in a certain manner. Certainly there are other individuals (outer rim???) who also have force ability, but this does not make them jedi. I view it a lot like martial arts; somebody who trains to the level of master in jiu-jitsu does not also incur the title master of martial arts nor a master of Kung Fu - he is simply a master of Jiu-Jiutsu. All theory and speculation on my part.

The villians of the movie (BGP)....So much of the struggle of the movie was Anakin and his battle with his inner dragon. There is also the battle of the Galaxy within the Senate; trust vs control. I never attached individuals with the villians.

 

[BlueOnion]

BGP, I think you are in error giving Sidious a loss in his fight with Windu. It was pretty clear to me that he was merely setting the stage for Anakin. He could have killed Mace anytime he wanted to.

I have to agree with this too. In the book, it is quite clear that Mace Windu is defeated prior to Anakin even showing up.

 

[Fallerjw]

After watching the movie last night, I have a greater appreciation for the Darth Vader character. He actually went through a lot. - his mother died in front of him- was constantly called "the chosen one" but felt held back by the Jedi and the council - wasn't trusted by Mace and some of the other jedi- fell in love but had to hide it- tried to keep his allegiance with the republic, but was being played by Sidious and the Jedi- was told by the Jedi council to be wary of Palpatine, when Palpatine seemed to be the one always sticking up for him- was told if he joined the dark side that he could save his wife, but his wife died anyhow- ended up in a "life suit" that kept him a liveHe went through a lot of crap.....but it was cool to see all the things that shaped him and made him who he was.

 

[BlueOnion]

After watching the movie last night, I have a greater appreciation for the Darth Vader character. He actually went through a lot.

- his mother died in front of him

- was constantly called "the chosen one" but felt held back by the Jedi and the council

- wasn't trusted by Mace and some of the other jedi

- fell in love but had to hide it

- tried to keep his allegiance with the republic, but was being played by Sidious and the Jedi

- was told by the Jedi council to be wary of Palpatine, when Palpatine seemed to be the one always sticking up for him

- was told if he joined the dark side that he could save his wife, but his wife died anyhow

- ended up in a "life suit" that kept him a live

He went through a lot of crap.....but it was cool to see all the things that shaped him and made him who he was.

This is what I think the movie is all about.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If it was me, I'd have Vader seal his pact with Sidious by cutting down Mace Windu in a straight up fight. I would most definitely NOT have had Obi-Wan beat Vader cleanly like that. That's just horrible and makes Vader look like a weak character. ....

I'm sorry BGP, I know (think?) you're being serious but that just struck me as hilarious. Give Lucas a ring, I'm sure he'd love for you to help him salvage this... J

 

[Joe Bryant]

After watching the movie last night, I have a greater appreciation for the Darth Vader character. He actually went through a lot.

- his mother died in front of him

- was constantly called "the chosen one" but felt held back by the Jedi and the council

- wasn't trusted by Mace and some of the other jedi

- fell in love but had to hide it

- tried to keep his allegiance with the republic, but was being played by Sidious and the Jedi

- was told by the Jedi council to be wary of Palpatine, when Palpatine seemed to be the one always sticking up for him

- was told if he joined the dark side that he could save his wife, but his wife died anyhow

- ended up in a "life suit" that kept him a live

He went through a lot of crap.....but it was cool to see all the things that shaped him and made him who he was.

Hi Faller,Yes, I think you're right. I'm nowhere near as up on it as you guys but the one clip I saw of Lucas said basically that. The "twist" is that you look at Episode 4 differently now.

When you start at Episode 4, you see Vader as the cold killer with no heart.

When you've seen Episode 3, you see Vader in Episode 4 and think, "poor guy, he's still in that suit".

J

 

[Joseph]

Another possibility that hasn't been mentioned Re: Palpatine possibly creating anakin is that he was just toying with the boy. At that point he practically had Anakin in his back pocket, wanting to become powerful to save padme. Surely the Sith Lord had heard of Anakin's "fatherless" background, and the suspicion that he was created by the midi-chlorians to balance the force. I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Palpatine knew this and threw the comment out there to give Anakin something more to think about and further confuse him.

 

[Fallerjw]

Another possibility that hasn't been mentioned Re: Palpatine possibly creating anakin is that he was just toying with the boy. At that point he practically had Anakin in his back pocket, wanting to become powerful to save padme. Surely the Sith Lord had heard of Anakin's "fatherless" background, and the suspicion that he was created by the midi-chlorians to balance the force. I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Palpatine knew this and threw the comment out there to give Anakin something more to think about and further confuse him.

I'm sure Palpatine not only knew of it, but he possibly had something to do with it. I might be the only one here, but I almost felt some of the Jedi were "pushing" Anakin toward the dark side. He saw them breaking the Jedi code, not trusting him or the leader of the Republic, then having him spy on Palpatine, forcing him to hide his love for Padme, etc, etc. Any thoughts?

 

[Joseph]

Amazingly enough, the actual plot to Revenge of the Sith is extremely thin despite it being two and a half hours long. Basically, we start with Palpatine being "captured" and rescued. Then Anakin turns, Palpatine is exposed, the stormtroopers turn on the jedi, Palpatine becomes the Emperor as the Empire is offically created, lots of fights, and we set up for Episode IV.

If you know me, you know I believe that a great film makes sure to maintain the credibility of everyone involved. In particular, the bad guys need to be shown as strong and score key victories.

Let's look at the bad guys. The separatists get their butts kicked. Battle droids are dispatched with ease. Even R2D2 destroys two super battle droids, who were once so mighty they helped defeat jedi in Episode II.

Yeah, that was weak

Anakin, still a padawan, defeats Darth Tyrannus cleanly. He is still a good guy at this point. So Tyrannus looks weak. Tyrannus does immobilize Obi-Wan, however, a point in his favor.

Anakin has been made a Jedi Knight at this point, and it is widely considered among the jedi that his skills rival even the greatest jedi masters... He is not granted the rank of master however, as he hasn't mastered control...

Grieveous is a total pansy. He doesn't do anything but cough chronically and lose battles. Instead of fighting the jedi on the battleship, he cuts and runs. Later Obi-Wan meets him on another planet and kills him cleanly, and Grieveous had 4 lightsabers spinning!!!

In the novels that take place between EPII and III, Grevious is developed much better. He defeats many jedi (where do you think he got his lightsabers from), but again, Obi-Wan is among the most powerful jedi masters. When he ran, it was from one of the most powerful council masters and a knight who has been ravaging the droid forces for years. You can't quite blame him for that.

Sidious has to fight 4 jedi in a lightsaber battle. He kills 3 right at the start which are the equivalent of Star Trek cadets in red suits. Now its 1 on 1 vs Jedi Master Mace Windu. Mace Windu BEATS Sidious cleanly. But as he goes to strike the killing blow, Anakin surprises him by cutting off Mace's hand that holds his lightsaber. Now Sidious unleashes a terrifying shower of bolts and throws him out the window, dead. That was NOT a clean victory - he had to use trickery. Mace, in effect, got punked like a #####. I would have been more impressed if Anakin cut down Mace in a clean fight. Instead he backstabbed him.

I was a bit disappointed by this too. Again, Mace is probably the baddest Jedi (next to Yoda), so him competing with Sidious is not unexpected. Remember though, that Sidious had his mind on finding himself a new apprentice. He's supremely confident, and only wavers in his blasting of mace with force lightning when anakin comes in. I wouldn't be surprised if (in the novelization this will be more clear) he was putting on a little show for Anakin. "Look, the mean jedi is going to kill weak, defenseless old me, help me and join the dark side."

Next we come to the slaughter of the Jedi. Again this isn't clean, as the stormtroopers backstab all the Jedi and overwhelm them by numbers.

How did you expect this to go down? Darth Vader singlehandedly dueling and killing every jedi? The army was created for a reason, and that was to enable the 2 sith to do battle with the thousands of jedi.

Next is Yoda vs Sidious. This battle ends in a sort of draw, as both ended up falling out of control and out of sight of each other.

Yoda had lost his lightsaber, Palpatine had the "high ground". He wasn't exactly defeated, but staying around probably wouldn't have been in his best interests either. Remember, Palpatine has his army waiting around the corner that could bust in and finish off Yoda at any point. Yoda realizes this, realizes that he's been badly outmanuvered, and goes off to wait for a time when he won't be so disadvantaged. Recall all the questions after the original trilogy "If Yoda was so powerful that he trained Luke, why didn't he and Obi-Wan just walk in and beat the emperor and vader?" Now we can see that its because the Emperor had a pretty ginormous army of stormtroopers to stand in the way. Even if Yoda could have taken Palpatine at some point in the 20 years between the movies, could he have done it after going through thousands of clones?

Finally, we come to Vader vs Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan cuts him down cleanly. The beating is so bad he even gets to stand over Vader and give him one last lecture before walking off with his lightsaber.

Recall though that "When last they met Vader was but the learner". This battle had to end that way.

So what do we have. Obi-Wan looks like a god. He beats Grieveous and Vader. Vader gets to backstab Mace Windu, the separtist commanders, and jedi children and loses his one staight-up fight vs Obi-Wan. Sidious fights to a loss and a draw.

You walk away from this feeling that the Sith are weak and the storyline isn't compelling.

If it was me, I'd have Vader seal his pact with Sidious by cutting down Mace Windu in a straight up fight. I would most definitely NOT have had Obi-Wan beat Vader cleanly like that. That's just horrible and makes Vader look like a weak character. I perhaps could have gone with Anakin cutting off Obi-Wan's hand/foot or something, winning the battle. However, something happens to separate them before Vader can finish the kill. Perhaps he is fated to being almost burned alive to seal his life as Vader.

Grade: C-, and I'm closer to giving it a D+ than a C.

 

[BlueOnion]

I might be the only one here, but I almost felt some of the Jedi were "pushing" Anakin toward the dark side. He saw them breaking the Jedi code, not trusting him or the leader of the Republic, then having him spy on Palpatine, forcing him to hide his love for Padme, etc, etc. Any thoughts?

In some ways I agree with you, just not your wording. Fear is the first step towards dark side and with the grating war, the deceipt and mistrust in the Republic...a case can be made that the Jedis started to fester feelings of fear; which could be intrepreted to pushing Anakin towards the dark side.

 

[Fallerjw]

I might be the only one here, but I almost felt some of the Jedi were "pushing" Anakin toward the dark side. He saw them breaking the Jedi code, not trusting him or the leader of the Republic, then having him spy on Palpatine, forcing him to hide his love for Padme, etc, etc. Any thoughts?

In some ways I agree with you, just not your wording. Fear is the first step towards dark side and with the grating war, the deceipt and mistrust in the Republic...a case can be made that the Jedis started to fester feelings of fear; which could be intrepreted to pushing Anakin towards the dark side.

Good point...your wording makes more sense. Clearly Anakin has anger, confusion, fear of loss and desire for power in him. Those things are pushing him to the dark side. I guess I just thought the Jedi could have handled him differently if they really thought he was the chosen one. I thought Obi-Wan did a nice job though. Giving him praise when it was needed and trying to teach patience and discipline. I guess Mace Windu is really the one I am thinking of. He seemed to rub Anakin the wrong way quite a bit, and I thought that pushed him toward trusting Palpatine that much more. Then when Windu was going to kill Palpatine when he had no weapon (I know this was set up by Palpatine, just saying what it looked like from Anakin's POV) Anakin thought he was breaking the Jedi code and it pushed him over the edge.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Other Jedi... I don't think having the ability to use the force automatically makes somebody a Jedi. The Jedi are a sect of individuals who have force ability and believe in using the force in a certain manner. Certainly there are other individuals (outer rim???) who also have force ability, but this does not make them jedi. I view it a lot like martial arts; somebody who trains to the level of master in jiu-jitsu does not also incur the title master of martial arts nor a master of Kung Fu - he is simply a master of Jiu-Jiutsu. All theory and speculation on my part.

As the mythology goes, there are FORCE SENSITVE people and Jedi. The first being the raw unrealized talent, the second being the trained sect member.Some of this is captured in the long line of StarWars video games.

 

[tommy300]

Couple quick things. I really hated how most of the Jedi went out. Not a good way to go and I couldn't help but think Sidious was a ##### to have the clones take out most of the Jedi. Smart move, yes, but I hated seeing it go down like that. With this, we also saw that Vader didn't take down any of the strong Jedi himself. Even if the Jedi Purge happened, it cannot be the way I always imagined it in my head.Anakin was shown to be a total POS. Of course his weakness led him to the dark-side and made him do some nasty things. Unreal that he could take out the room full of younglings. Anyways, it shows how really weak-minded he was to be played like that. This leads us to the big question on how he was really "created"? It appears to me that he was "conceived" by Sidious or Sidious's Master. From here it looks like they might have put these visions in his head all along. Sidious played Anakin to the point where he took care of Padme himself. I don't think she was going to die at all, until the events before the big battle. Got a lot to say, stuck at work though. Will check this thread later. We see that Obi-Won is the true hero of the prequels.

 

[Joseph]

I might be the only one here, but I almost felt some of the Jedi were "pushing" Anakin toward the dark side. He saw them breaking the Jedi code, not trusting him or the leader of the Republic, then having him spy on Palpatine, forcing him to hide his love for Padme, etc, etc. Any thoughts?

In some ways I agree with you, just not your wording. Fear is the first step towards dark side and with the grating war, the deceipt and mistrust in the Republic...a case can be made that the Jedis started to fester feelings of fear; which could be intrepreted to pushing Anakin towards the dark side.

Good point...your wording makes more sense. Clearly Anakin has anger, confusion, fear of loss and desire for power in him. Those things are pushing him to the dark side. I guess I just thought the Jedi could have handled him differently if they really thought he was the chosen one. I thought Obi-Wan did a nice job though. Giving him praise when it was needed and trying to teach patience and discipline. I guess Mace Windu is really the one I am thinking of. He seemed to rub Anakin the wrong way quite a bit, and I thought that pushed him toward trusting Palpatine that much more. Then when Windu was going to kill Palpatine when he had no weapon (I know this was set up by Palpatine, just saying what it looked like from Anakin's POV) Anakin thought he was breaking the Jedi code and it pushed him over the edge.

Yeah, Mace, for being one of the wisest Jedi, was pretty stupid throughout the series. In EPI he doubts Anakin as the "chosen one" and doesn't want to let him into the jedi order. I would imagine that through the years (offscreen) that relationship deteriorated to the point where he didn't trust Anakin. Palpatine knew this and played on it. He trusted Anakin to be his voice on the council, trusted him to find grevious, trusted him to become the most powerful jedi ever. He set himself up as the polar opposite to the Jedi, gave anakin the recognition the jedi didn't, gave him the advice he wanted to hear, etc. When it came time for anakin to make the choice, it was already over.

 

[BlueOnion]

Good point...your wording makes more sense. Clearly Anakin has anger, confusion, fear of loss and desire for power in him. Those things are pushing him to the dark side. I guess I just thought the Jedi could have handled him differently if they really thought he was the chosen one. I thought Obi-Wan did a nice job though. Giving him praise when it was needed and trying to teach patience and discipline. I guess Mace Windu is really the one I am thinking of. He seemed to rub Anakin the wrong way quite a bit, and I thought that pushed him toward trusting Palpatine that much more. Then when Windu was going to kill Palpatine when he had no weapon (I know this was set up by Palpatine, just saying what it looked like from Anakin's POV) Anakin thought he was breaking the Jedi code and it pushed him over the edge.

This was probably touched on much more in the script, as it was documented in the book. However, in 2.5 hours, some things have to be edited out. Mace Windu's role in the force was recognizing 'shatter points' in the force; Anakin was a 'shatter point', which way he broke was unclear.

 

[tommy300]

Adding, especially with Gen. Grevious, everyone should watch the Clone Wars DVD. It shows events of the Clone Wars that take place between Episode 2 and 3. Very well done for a cartoon. There are several different missions with many of the main Jedi, and Grevious appears to be a total bad-###.

 

[BlueOnion]

Anakin was shown to be a total POS.  Of course his weakness led him to the dark-side and made him do some nasty things. Unreal that he could take out the room full of younglings.  Anyways, it shows how really weak-minded he was to be played like that. 

This was the story line. Anakin, in all his greatness was strong-willed; unlike the Jedi who are strong-minded. The story is the clean delineation of these attributes and the polarization of these two attributes between the dark side and the light side.

This leads us to the big question on how he was really "created"?  It appears to me that he was "conceived" by Sidious or Sidious's Master.  From here it looks like they might have put these visions in his head all along.  Sidious played Anakin to the point where he took care of Padme himself.  I don't think she was going to die at all, until the events before the big battle. 

Certainly there is a battle over Anakin's will; between the dark side and the light side. In the end though, the decision to turn to the darkside was certainly Anakins'.

Got a lot to say, stuck at work though.  Will check this thread later.  We see that Obi-One is the true hero of the prequels.

Depends on your perspective. One could look at Obi-Won's short comings as a jedi master; relative to the strengths of the Sith Lord; as the breaking point of Anakin ultimately choosing the dark side.But if you want to look at Obi-One as the hero of the prequels, you definitely have to view Anakin as the hero of the whole saga. Ultimately he was the choosen one and the only one with the power to destroy Darth Sidious. Just as Mace Windu was blindsided by Anakin's betrayal...it is this same lesson Darth Sidious learns as he is blindsided by Anakin when Darth Sidious is about to detroy Luke.

 

[Fallerjw]

Anakin was shown to be a total POS. Of course his weakness led him to the dark-side and made him do some nasty things. Unreal that he could take out the room full of younglings. Anyways, it shows how really weak-minded he was to be played like that.

This was the story line. Anakin, in all his greatness was strong-willed; unlike the Jedi who are strong-minded. The story is the clean delineation of these attributes and the polarization of these two attributes between the dark side and the light side.

This leads us to the big question on how he was really "created"? It appears to me that he was "conceived" by Sidious or Sidious's Master. From here it looks like they might have put these visions in his head all along. Sidious played Anakin to the point where he took care of Padme himself. I don't think she was going to die at all, until the events before the big battle.

Certainly there is a battle over Anakin's will; between the dark side and the light side. In the end though, the decision to turn to the darkside was certainly Anakins.

Got a lot to say, stuck at work though. Will check this thread later. We see that Obi-Won is the true hero of the prequels.

Depends on your perspective. One could look at Obi-Won's short comings as a jedi master; relative to the strengths of the Sith Lord; as the breaking point of Anakin ultimately choosing the dark side.But if you want to look at Obi-Won has the hero of the prequels, you definitely have to view Anakin as the hero of the whole saga. Ultimately he was the choosen one and the only one with the power to destroy Darth Sidious. Just as Mace Windu was blindsided by Anakin's betrayal...it is this same lesson Darth Sidious learns as he is blindsided by Anakin when Darth Sidious is about to detroy Luke.

I'm not convinced. Through the 6 movies, Anakin doesn't scream hero to me anymore. He betrayed the Jedi and his teacher to try to save his wife (which didn't work). He was able to beat Mace Windu, but with the help of Darth Sidious. He lost the battle against his teacher (and he was the chosen one?). He then "lives" on, but only with the help of machines. Really you could look at him as the biggest failure of the whole series.

 

[Dentist]

and it makes for Sidious' death by falling down a shaft even more ####

 

[BlueOnion]

I'm not convinced. Through the 6 movies, Anakin doesn't scream hero to me anymore. He betrayed the Jedi and his teacher to try to save his wife (which didn't work). He was able to beat Mace Windu, but with the help of Darth Sidious. He lost the battle against his teacher (and he was the chosen one?). He then "lives" on, but only with the help of machines. Really you could look at him as the biggest failure of the whole series.

Or the biggest hero. The events that pushed the galaxy into the clone wars were sent into motion well before Anakin arrived. In essence, he was the only one in the Universe who could destory Darth Sidious, restore balance to the galaxy (and to the force) and restore the fractured Republic. In the end, the prophecy was correct; though cloudy, the future was.

 

[BlueOnion]

and it makes for Sidious' death by falling down a shaft even more ####

Good morning Dentist.

 

[tommy300]

Anakin was shown to be a total POS.  Of course his weakness led him to the dark-side and made him do some nasty things. Unreal that he could take out the room full of younglings.  Anyways, it shows how really weak-minded he was to be played like that. 

This was the story line. Anakin, in all his greatness was strong-willed; unlike the Jedi who are strong-minded. The story is the clean delineation of these attributes and the polarization of these two attributes between the dark side and the light side.

This leads us to the big question on how he was really "created"?  It appears to me that he was "conceived" by Sidious or Sidious's Master.  From here it looks like they might have put these visions in his head all along.  Sidious played Anakin to the point where he took care of Padme himself.  I don't think she was going to die at all, until the events before the big battle. 

Certainly there is a battle over Anakin's will; between the dark side and the light side. In the end though, the decision to turn to the darkside was certainly Anakins.

Got a lot to say, stuck at work though.  Will check this thread later.  We see that Obi-Won is the true hero of the prequels.

Depends on your perspective. One could look at Obi-Won's short comings as a jedi master; relative to the strengths of the Sith Lord; as the breaking point of Anakin ultimately choosing the dark side.But if you want to look at Obi-Won has the hero of the prequels, you definitely have to view Anakin as the hero of the whole saga. Ultimately he was the choosen one and the only one with the power to destroy Darth Sidious. Just as Mace Windu was blindsided by Anakin's betrayal...it is this same lesson Darth Sidious learns as he is blindsided by Anakin when Darth Sidious is about to detroy Luke.

I knew I should have left this thread alone. Thanks for the comments B.O. you made good points to what I said, and yes it ultimatly was Anakin's decision to go to the darkside. I guess many things in the series depend on your point of view. Yes Obi-Won failed as a Jedi Master to Anakin, but he possibly didn't have a chance to succeed, Anakin had issues right fromthe start. Ends up that they probably shouldn't have trained him except for Qui-Gon's insistance. Anakin's will was so strong, and his eventual hunger for power drove him far past the option of remaining a Jedi. At first it was the power to save life, couldn't lose Padme like he did his mother, but that hunger was growing fast. With what he said to Padme, I'm suprised that he never made a move on Sidious himself, unless he thought all along that he couldn't take him (EDIT, after being put in the suit, of course he thought he could take Sidious before that)? He wanted to rule with Padme, but then as Vader, never really went against Sidious until the end of ROTJ....to save his son.

 

[Dentist]

I'm not convinced. Through the 6 movies, Anakin doesn't scream hero to me anymore. He betrayed the Jedi and his teacher to try to save his wife (which didn't work). He was able to beat Mace Windu, but with the help of Darth Sidious. He lost the battle against his teacher (and he was the chosen one?). He then "lives" on, but only with the help of machines. Really you could look at him as the biggest failure of the whole series.

I agree hereDoes the movie not leave you wishing that obi won had just chopped anakin's head off right there and END it???

I mean... how can obi-won live knowing he left that beast around.

I always thought in 4-6 that Obi Won's character was wack.. he wasn't that great... what a sham to kill off a character that "important' that quick.

After these first 3... He proves his immense power, and you look on him differently in episode 4

 

[Fallerjw]

and it makes for Sidious' death by falling down a shaft even more ####

I don't understand why they can move huge objects by waving their hands, but can't stop themselves when they are falling? Any help?

 

[tommy300]

I'm not convinced.  Through the 6 movies, Anakin doesn't scream hero to me anymore.  He betrayed the Jedi and his teacher to try to save his wife (which didn't work).  He was able to beat Mace Windu, but with the help of Darth Sidious.  He lost the battle against his teacher (and he was the chosen one?).  He then "lives" on, but only with the help of machines.  Really you could look at him as the biggest failure of the whole series.

I agree hereDoes the movie not leave you wishing that obi won had just chopped anakin's head off right there and END it???

I mean... how can obi-won live knowing he left that beast around.

I always thought in 4-6 that Obi Won's character was wack.. he wasn't that great... what a sham to kill off a character that "important' that quick.

After these first 3... He proves his immense power, and you look on him differently in episode 4

 

[BlueOnion]

Ends up that they probably shouldn't have trained him except for Qui-Gon's insistance.

Who really knows, it is Lucas' story after all.But who is to say the clone wars would have ended any differently if they did not train him? And if they did not train him, would there have been a Luke and Leia and if not, what hope would the Rebels in Episode IV, V and VI truly have of overthrowing Darth Sidious and whoever his apprentice was at the time?

 

[Joseph]

Anakin was shown to be a total POS. Of course his weakness led him to the dark-side and made him do some nasty things. Unreal that he could take out the room full of younglings. Anyways, it shows how really weak-minded he was to be played like that.

This was the story line. Anakin, in all his greatness was strong-willed; unlike the Jedi who are strong-minded. The story is the clean delineation of these attributes and the polarization of these two attributes between the dark side and the light side.

This leads us to the big question on how he was really "created"? It appears to me that he was "conceived" by Sidious or Sidious's Master. From here it looks like they might have put these visions in his head all along. Sidious played Anakin to the point where he took care of Padme himself. I don't think she was going to die at all, until the events before the big battle.

Certainly there is a battle over Anakin's will; between the dark side and the light side. In the end though, the decision to turn to the darkside was certainly Anakins.

Got a lot to say, stuck at work though. Will check this thread later. We see that Obi-Won is the true hero of the prequels.

Depends on your perspective. One could look at Obi-Won's short comings as a jedi master; relative to the strengths of the Sith Lord; as the breaking point of Anakin ultimately choosing the dark side.But if you want to look at Obi-Won has the hero of the prequels, you definitely have to view Anakin as the hero of the whole saga. Ultimately he was the choosen one and the only one with the power to destroy Darth Sidious. Just as Mace Windu was blindsided by Anakin's betrayal...it is this same lesson Darth Sidious learns as he is blindsided by Anakin when Darth Sidious is about to detroy Luke.

I knew I should have left this thread alone. Thanks for the comments B.O. you made good points to what I said, and yes it ultimatly was Anakin's decision to go to the darkside. I guess many things in the series depend on your point of view. Yes Obi-Won failed as a Jedi Master to Anakin, but he possibly didn't have a chance to succeed, Anakin had issues right fromthe start. Ends up that they probably shouldn't have trained him except for Qui-Gon's insistance. Anakin's will was so strong, and his eventual hunger for power drove him far past the option of remaining a Jedi. At first it was the power to save life, couldn't lose Padme like he did his mother, but that hunger was growing fast. With what he said to Padme, I'm suprised that he never made a move on Sidious himself, unless he thought all along that he couldn't take him? He wanted to rule with Padme, but then as Vader, never really went against Sidious until the end of ROTJ....to save his son.

One of the big sith things is to have an apprentice waiting in the wings. Vader didn't make a move on Palpatine because he didn't have anyone to become his apprentice (and possibly because Sidious learned from his master's mistake, and didn't teach Vader all his secrets). As soon as Vader found a possible apprentice in Luke, he made a play to have Luke sign up alongside and join the BG club.