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Steven Jackson (1 Viewer)

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
i do think he will be used more & more consistently with linehan...

just throwing this out there as he had more touches last year than i recalled... nearly 300 in 15 games = close to 20 per game. sometimes the low games stand out in memory... he did have a game against titans where he had just 12 CARRIES (TEN) & in two losses had 10 (NYG) & 12 (ARI) carries... but still, 20 touches per game average isn't too shabby...

things that should help...

OL is better with barron in second year & incognito looking good at interior OL...

linehan has more balanced attack...

jax should increase 4.1 average...

new TEs klopfenstein & byrd give team first viable threat from position in a while, which could loosen things up in the middle of the field...

defense should be improved (maybe a lot), which will position team to be able to run more in second half of games...

it looks like faulk might be retiring, but he will get lion's share of carries & touches regardless...

with upgrades at OL & TE, better protection schemes for bulger, improved rushing numbers, they could be visting the red zone with greater frequency than we have seen in a few years (since faulk was healthy & OL was better), which should lead to an uptick of TDs... he could double his career high (8) if he (& bulger) can stay healthy & offensive upgrades are as good as advertised...

 
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i do think he will be used more & more consistently with linehan...

just throwing this out there as he had more touches last year than i recalled... nearly 300 in 15 games = close to 20 per game. sometimes the low games stand out in memory... he did have a game against titans where he had just 12 CARRIES (TEN) & in two losses had 10 (NYG) & 12 (ARI) carries... but still, 20 touches per game average isn't too shabby...

things that should help...

OL is better with barron in second year & incognito looking good at interior OL...

linehan has more balanced attack...

jax should increase 4.1 average...

new TEs klopfenstein & byrd give team first viable threat from position in a while, which could loosen things up in the middle of the field...

defense should be improved (maybe a lot), which will position team to be able to run more in second half of games...

it looks like faulk might be retiring, but he will get lion's share of carries & touches regardless...

with upgrades at OL & TE, better protection schemes for bulger, improved rushing numbers, they could be visting the red zone with greater frequency than we have seen in a few years (since faulk was healthy & OL was better), which should lead to an uptick of TDs... he could double his career high (8) if he (& bulger) can stay healthy & offensive upgrades are as good as advertised...
Bob, what do you project would happen to Jackson's numbers if/when Bulger is injured again?
 
I'm not sure where the "myth" part of the title enters into play. Bob and I have debated this in the past, so I think some of this is indirectly pointed at me.

To be sure, yes, Jackson had 20 touches a game on average. While that may be more than some people think or remember, that is still a fair amount less than some of the big boys.

In the past, I pointed out that S-Jax would need a lot more touches and a lot more TD to enter the top tier of RB. I still think he needs both of those to happen to reach the next level, and that's where the debate starts for me . . . how likely is he to get up to the 375-400 touches that the uber studs get and can he approach 15-20 TD?

I'm not sure Faulk retiring automatically would get Jackson more carries, as Fisher IMO is probably a better backup at this point than Faulk is (no offense to the living legend).

 
i do think he will be used more & more consistently with linehan...

just throwing this out there as he had more touches last year than i recalled... nearly 300 in 15 games = close to 20 per game. sometimes the low games stand out in memory... he did have a game against titans where he had just 12 CARRIES (TEN) & in two losses had 10 (NYG) & 12 (ARI) carries... but still, 20 touches per game average isn't too shabby...

things that should help...

OL is better with barron in second year & incognito looking good at interior OL...

linehan has more balanced attack...

jax should increase 4.1 average...

new TEs klopfenstein & byrd give team first viable threat from position in a while, which could loosen things up in the middle of the field...

defense should be improved (maybe a lot), which will position team to be able to run more in second half of games...

it looks like faulk might be retiring, but he will get lion's share of carries & touches regardless...

with upgrades at OL & TE, better protection schemes for bulger, improved rushing numbers, they could be visting the red zone with greater frequency than we have seen in a few years (since faulk was healthy & OL was better), which should lead to an uptick of TDs... he could double his career high (8) if he (& bulger) can stay healthy & offensive upgrades are as good as advertised...
Bob, what do you project would happen to Jackson's numbers if/when Bulger is injured again?
not as worried about a steep decline as last season, wannabee...ferrotte (sp?), especially steeped in linehan system, will be most competent backup QB since bulger backed up warner...

not being able to pass as well could lead to more rushes, but not as effective, so the end result & net could be about the same in terms of average numbers...

 
Bob you used the words touches a few times, IE 20 touches. That's something I look for for guys like Westbrook and Barber that are super dual threats. Jackson seems more like a workhorse type back no?

254 carries seems awfully low and 320 receiving yards isn't wow-ing me.

Curious what you think about that? What you think about guys filling prototypes too? IE Westbrook you wanna see get X amount of touches? Jackson you'd like to see get how many carries? What do you look for/hope for?

 
If Faulk retires is Tony Fisher the backup/handcuff and does he have any value in deep leagues?
i'm pretty sure he would be the #2... nobody else on roster that would be as good at filling that role... he has been praised for all around skills, including receiving & blitz pickup... probably tough to add a FA as good at this point, though if faulk retires they would need to make some kind of move to get #3 RB...i think fisher's value would be highest to jackson owner... i don't see him being displaced, so fisher won't be expected to see field a lot unless jackson is injured... if jackson improves in blocking & receiving (in his draft he was touted as most complete RB in draft, with most well rounded skill set), then he shouldn't need to leave field for situational & down & distance reasons, but just to be spelled occasionally...

& if it were somewhere else, not sure that fisher has the kind of talent to emerge as long term answer for any teams out there... looks to me like a career backup... though for the rams, that is nothing to sneer at if he could step up if faulk retures & provide reliable backup RB...

 
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Real good post, Bob Magaw. I think it's fair to say there's a 'myth' here. You just have to look at all the posts about Martz in threads about Jackson or Detroit. The defense is really the key for me. Their defense got totally blown out of games early sometimes, including that Giants game you mention. Who do you see as the starters in the secondary? A lot of names in the mix between FAs, Butler coming back, and the last 2 drafts.

There were also games when they couldn't get the run game going, and I've seen that attributed to the interior line play. You mention Incognito. Do you see him pushing anyone out of the starting lineup?

 
I'm not sure where the "myth" part of the title enters into play.  Bob and I have debated this in the past, so I think some of this is indirectly pointed at me.

To be sure, yes, Jackson had 20 touches a game on average.  While that may be more than some people think or remember, that is still a fair amount less than some of the big boys.

In the past, I pointed out that S-Jax would need a lot more touches and a lot more TD to enter the top tier of RB.  I still think he needs both of those to happen to reach the next level, and that's where the debate starts for me . . . how likely is he to get up to the 375-400 touches that the uber studs get and can he approach 15-20 TD?

I'm not sure Faulk retiring automatically would get Jackson more carries, as Fisher IMO is probably a better backup at this point than Faulk is (no offense to the living legend).
hey david,i honestly wasn't thinking of you when i posted this (not that i'm not glad you weighed in)... i was actually prompted by a Q & A session with local rams insider & nationally known journalist howard balzer (used to be with usa today... maybe still is?) posted on a rams homer board (see below)...

i like balzer... he is often a contrarian, but i think he brings good sense and usually sharpens a debate... i think it is safe to say he is more pessimistic on jackson than i am... though i follow the team closely, even i am a little divided on his prospects, near & long term...

if we differed on him i don't recall (i do remember some nice exchanges about daunte culpepper & kerry collins last off-season :) )... i guess i sound pretty high on him with crazy talk like 16 TDs being possible... if i understand you right, we may be in agreement that if he doesn't get a big uptick in carries/touches that it would seem difficult for him to penetrate to elite rushing yardage producing RBs...

i do have some questions about whether he has elite skills... he used to be very fast (reportedly 10.6 100 m as prep) but he doesn't play that fast now... & he may have more build up speed than great burst, suddenness & initial acceleration... still, at 230+, an impressive size/speed combo... maybe a slower ronnie brown is comp, defenitely not as elusive as cadillac... i have questions about his instincts (runs into people, including own blockers too often) & his short yardage ability... he would imo have to improve in that department over what i have seen in first two years to get to the level of increase of TD numbers that i suggested... some of his problems may have had to do with blocking...

if there is some confusion & disconnect in that i paradoxically seem critical of some of his running attributes but nonetheless am bullish on TD numbers in 2006... i suppose that speaks to me being upbeat about linehan, liklihood bulger stays healthier (sounds important to HC), upgrade at OL by more mature barron & feisty ingognito, the infusion of talent at TE position... ie- more to do with situation he is embedded in than intrinsic talent...

the Q & A session...

http://www.ramsrule.com/theoriginalherd/dc...id=152263&page=

Smith40: Jackson should get 20-24 touches a game either through the pass or runs. 16 runs a game isn't going to cut it, and is not a true indicator of Jackson's talents. He is a moose and he seemingly gets stronger with the more carries he gets.

Howard: He averaged 19.8 touches per game.

Smith40: Most notable was 6 carries in that loss in St. Louis to Arizona. I don't diminish the accomplishment of 1000 yard seasons. It still takes a lot of skill to accomplish such a feat.

Howard: Jackson had 12 carries against Arizona, not 6. Now, 12 isn't a lot, obviously. Jackson totaled 6 yards on those carries with a long run of 6. That, of course, means he totaled 0 yards on his other 11 attempts.

Jackson fails to take responsibility for his poor running and reads on many occasions (yes, some of it was blocking). As I've noted before, if you're getting stuffed for losses on first down, it's tough to keep running.

And, yes, he exceeded that 62.5 average with an average of 69.7. Not much of a difference. The issue with Jackson is average per attempt. His was 4.1. Of the 15 other runners that had at least 1,000 yards, 11 had better averages than him.

Smith40: When Jackson gets over 20 carries, he gets 100 yards. Anyone remember the Jacksonville game last season? Jackson was knocking people on their rumps in the 4th quarter when they needed to kill the clock.

Howard: These are typical stats that don't look at the big picture. Why did Jackson get the ball so much in the fourth quarter? Because the Rams had the lead.

In most of the games the Rams lost, they fell behind, and often by a lot, which meant they weren't going to run the ball. In those games, Jackson was often stuffed consistently and that led to more passing. When he would get minus 2 yards on first down, passes followed. When he was stopped on 3rd and 1, that turned the ball over to the defense, which kept the chains from moving and fewer offensive plays.

It's interesting to note that Jackson is constantly yapping about running plays not being called, yet he had 254 carries last season. In 1999, Marshall Faulk had 253. In 2000, he also had 253 and in 2001, he had 260. In those years, Faulk averaged 5.5, 5.4 and 5.3 per attempt. Jackson averaged 4.1 last season. If he had Faulk's average, he would have gained another 330 yards.

Smith40: The run blocking, and play calling on this team was horrid in the Cardinals game. They couldn't figure out a simple safety blitz?

Howard: Well, it's interesting you bring up the safety blitz. As I recall, Bulger was injured on a play where Jackson didn't pick up a blitz. On another play, he got bowled over by Wilson. What is forgotten in this entire discussion about Jackson is that there's more to being a running back than running. You are often responsible for blitzers. And Jackson has had consistent problems doing that. It's not a matter of figuring it out, it's a matter of doing it and taking on the blitzer. Faulk was once very good at it, but not as much anymore. In that Arizona game, Arlen Harris came in the game late, because he was the only back capable of stopping Wilson on the blitz.

Smith40: The Vikings were in the top 5 in rushing when Linehan was the offensive coordinator in Minnesota

Howard: They were 18th in 2004 and 4th in 2003. Not very consistent. And, their top 2 running backs in 2003 had 281 total carries. The difference was that Culpepper had 422 rushing yards, which elevated their total rushing numbers. I don't think anyone would argue that Culpepper's rushing totals should be credited to the grounbd game, when most of them surely came on pass plays.

The Vikings threw the ball virtually as much as Martz did under Linehan. So, where is the evidence that anything will change? Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But I can assure you, Linehan is going to throw plenty, and that's why he has added tight ends that can catch.

SMITH40: In 2005, like it or not, that was Martz team. For a man who was so sick and suffering such a serious illness, he sure did a lot of string pulling behind the scenes. Those theatrics cost him his job.

Howard: Wrong. In reality, the thing that hurt Martz the most was when Mortensen reported what Martz had told him concerning statements Shaw made about the team losing money if it got to the Super Bowl.

Smith40: There appears to be calm at Rams Park, and a consensus on both draft picks and free agency. This bodes well for the team now and in the future.

Howard: Actually, there wasn't consensus in the first round. There were strong feelings by some to take Greenway

Smith40: My feelings are that the Rams had a productive offseason and did some good things that they haven't done the past several seasons. My belief is that the same individuals still in our front office who were lambasted over the Martz situation are the same ones who are pulling the triggers apparently on these good signings and draft picks.

No, there are no guarantees that any of these picks or free agent signings will work out. There are no guarantees in professional sports. What I can say with certainty is that the team was proactive, apparently did their homework and signed some players and drafted individuals that appear ready to make an immediate impact for this team, and supplied a badly needed injection of talent.

I was listening to Balzer this morning on his radio show, and he had a subject on who is a draft expert, who gave the Rams an "A" in their draft. I am curious to read commentary on this issue from others here.

Howard: That person, Rob Rang, also spoke highly of last year's draft, which was run by Martz. As for free agency, some perspective is in order. Yes, the Rams were proactive and got some players quickly. However, every year is different for different reasons. Last year, the best linebackers in free agency were Antonio Pierce and Ed Hartwell, but the Rams didn't have the salary-cap room to go for a big signing. This year, different than last, the cap went up mor than $17 million, thus the move on Witherspoon. Had Witherspoon been available last year, I'm quire certain they wouldn't have been able to sign him.

So, last year, they hoped cheaper guys like Claiborne and Coakley would help a bad linebacking corps. There was little else available.

Smith 40: The Rams have had more then adequate CAP room throughout the Martz years to sign free agents and draft properly despite the ramifications of Warner and Turley. By the way, I believe that Martz was the man behind the resigning of Warner to that hefty bonus before the 2004 season, and I thought Martz engineered the Turley trade.

Howard: They had little cap room in several years. That's a fact. Having the cap go up $5M compared to $17M is huge. Anyone can figure out that if the cap had gone up only $5M this year, many of the moves the Rams made would not have happened. Once again, you ascribe every decision to Martz. In case you didn't realize it, he didn't negotiate contracts. Actually, it was Zygmunt that decided to pay Warner the bonus. Martz, and everyone, was in favor of the Turley deal, as far as I can tell, but it was Zygmunt that negotiated the contract. No one was to blame for that. No one could predict Turley would hurt his back. BTW, in case you forgot, the Rams were 12-4 the one year Turley played.

The bottom line is this: The Rams have made moves this year that look good now, and they might turn out very good. But they were able to be aggressive because of the cap going up so much.

This is like a spinning top, because you see everything black and white, when that is not the way it is. If Martz wanted Zygmunt to sign a player, and Zygmunt doesn't get it done (like Conwell or Wistrom), was that Martz's responsibility?

How does anyone know that Martz might recommended moving on without Warner, but that Zygmunt said it was too dangerous and would create too big of a cap hit the following year?

The reality is, that the relationship between the two turned sour, and one of the reasons is that Zygmunt didn't get players signed or added that Martz wanted. The truth is they all had responsibility for the roster, not one person. We all realize you have to believe it was that way so you can blame everything on Martz. But it's simply not the way it worked (or didn't work). Martz was responsible for mistakes, but so was Zygmunt, Lovie Smith, Armey and others. Most realize that, but you have never been able to acknowledge that others also contributed.

nitwitdog: How do you think Bulger felt about the Cutler rumors? I know, it's just a business and all that, but stuff like this has got to make guys wonder how/where they stand with the team.

Howard: Bogus rumors. Just like the ones that had the Rams trading for Culpepper.

nickseiler: Howard, when you say bogus rumors, are you referring to the Rams actually being interested in Cutler at all, or simply the Rams trading up for him? Just trying to get some clarification.

Howard: The trade up rumors.

 
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As a Steven Jackson owner last year, I payed very close attention to the St. Louis games. Sometimes I thought that Martz just didn't run the ball enough, but a lot of games, it just seemed like they couldn't run the ball. Passing the ball was the only way to set up the run. That's why I'm a little leery of drafting Steven Jackson in the top 10 b/c he was just to inconsistent last year. Games that I expected him to have a great game, i.e. against the Arizona Cardinals, he was terrible. I'm not sure what to expect this year, but I won't be taking him as high as he's being drafted thus far in the mocks.

 
599 pass attempts and 342 RB carries doesn't sound like a myth to me.
its relative, joffer...i was speaking more to jax than whether as a team the martz-led rams passed a lot more than ran relative to other, more balanced teams...

i just sensed a lot of people out there were under the impression he didn't get very many touches... 20 per game not an insignificant amount...

though it is relative in other direction, as david pointed out... he has imo very little chance of getting number of carries as guys like LJ, SA & LT... & i don't think he will get enough receptions to bridge the gap? i guess this isn't earth shattering, as nobody puts jax in their class in terms of expectations...

for those out there that were fully aware he had 20 touches per game last season, there may not be a lot of revelations in this thread... but i thought it might be public service if some vaguely thought he got hardly any carries last season, & projected a monster year based on huge uptick of touches... that might not be forthcoming (at least in yards... again, i'm bullish on uptick in TDs) if he doesn't get a lot more than the 20 touches per game he ALREADY got in 2005...

 
599 pass attempts and 342 RB carries doesn't sound like a myth to me.
its relative, joffer...i was speaking more to jax than whether as a team the martz-led rams passed a lot more than ran relative to other, more balanced teams...

i just sensed a lot of people out there were under the impression he didn't get very many touches... 20 per game not an insignificant amount...

though it is relative in other direction, as david pointed out... he has imo very little chance of getting number of carries as guys like LJ, SA & LT... & i don't think he will get enough receptions to bridge the gap? i guess this isn't earth shattering, as nobody puts jax in their class in terms of expectations...

for those out there that were fully aware he had 20 touches per game last season, there may not be a lot of revelations in this thread... but i thought it might be public service if some vaguely thought he got hardly any carries last season, & projected a monster year based on huge uptick of touches... that might not be forthcoming (at least in yards... again, i'm bullish on uptick in TDs) if he doesn't get a lot more than the 20 touches per game he ALREADY got in 2005...
fair enough, i don't think many are expecting a 330+ carry season for Jackson. I'm only projecting 290 myself. What I'm hoping to see is an offense that doesn't abandon the run at the drop of a hat, and I think we'll get that with Linehan. Jackson was RB11 last year standard scoring and RB9 in ppr. He certainly doesn't need much of an increase to justify a top 8 pick.

 
Real good post, Bob Magaw. I think it's fair to say there's a 'myth' here. You just have to look at all the posts about Martz in threads about Jackson or Detroit.  The defense is really the key for me. Their defense got totally blown out of games early sometimes, including that Giants game you mention. Who do you see as the starters in the secondary? A lot of names in the mix between FAs, Butler coming back, and the last 2 drafts.

There were also games when they couldn't get the run game going, and I've seen that attributed to the interior line play. You mention Incognito. Do you see him pushing anyone out of the starting lineup?
thanx, jr...rams defense team report i wrote below (i'm upbeat, & think they will finish with top half (but probably closer to middle of pack)... with greater balance & efficiency i expect on offense in sustaining drives & red zone opps due to linehan, i think that should be good enough to get to playoffs... there should be some good battles with SEA, & i think ARI may still be a few players (OL & defense) & another year away from vying for nfc west...

incognito is technically with first team as terrell injured... my guess is he has already beaten him out... the rams want to get best OL on field, so if terrell comes back strong (wrist injury compounding pre-existing weight & conditioning issues), he could also get plugged in at C or other OG once their play slips too far... the rams interior O(L breakdowns absolutely were a big problem last season by all accounts...

i think if incognito doesn't have foolish anger management problems that plagued him before, he will surprise... he hasn't played in like three years due to disciplinary problems, clashing with coaches, broken knee cap... his pick last season was risky, but its looking like it might pan out... some scouts thought he had first round ability if healthy... they need to be stouter & get younger in the interior OL...

STL team report (defense)...

http://www.footballguys.com/06teamreport-ram.php

Team Defense

Rookie HC Scott Linehan has brought a much needed calmness and talent for consensus building to the organization which stands in stark relief to the turbulent, dysfunctional reign of exiled Mike Martz. His hiring of a former HC (the fiery Jim Haslett) with greater seniority as the new DC showed a lot of confidence, and was a clear sign that his entire focus is on making the Rams more competitive on BOTH sides of the ball. The STL front office, coaching staff and scouting department should be commended for putting together one of the the best combined free agency/draft efforts in the entire league, and one of the franchise's best in recent memory. They appear to have completely transformed the team's ability to compete within the division just one year removed from an alarming downward spiral and implosion. The Rams are now far better positioned in their hopes to be the last man standing after the divisional shootout expected in the NFC West, home of the incumbent NFC champs the Seahawks, as well as the up 'n coming Cardinals (who finally look ready to take flight after adding coveted Edgerrin James in free agency and QB of the future Matt Leinart in the draft). The personnel hondos did an excellent job increasing overall team speed and talent at every level of the defense. The Rams have not been a very good defense for a few years now, springing a lot of leaks under Martz's watch. Haslett should be a massive upgrade over his predecessor, the abyssmal Larry Marmie. He is expected to bring more competent schemes better suited to the players strengths, as well as inspire his charges to play with a greater sense of urgency. Like the customized amp in Spinal Tap, he will twist the intensity knob to 11.

Defensive Line

Starters: DE Leonard Little, DE Anthony Hargrove, DT La'Roi Glover, DT Jimmy Kennedy

Backups: DT Claude Wroten [r], DT Brian Howard, DE Victor Adeyanju [r], DE Brandon Green

Starting DL: Pro Bowler Little is still capable of being one of more explosive and dangerous pass rushers in the game (though he has regressed from the monster sack/FF numbers posted from 2001-2003). It is hard to tell if he is a player on the downside of his career (turns 32 this season), or if his uncharacteristic sluggish production of late is the result of a nightmarish past two years off the field. If he can rebound it would give a big boost to the entire defense. Little is still one of the fastest DL in pursuit in league history (at times he looks like the fastest player on the field when running down ball carriers downfield). This is a contract year, so expect him to be highly motivated. Hargrove oozes athleticism (his combine numbers were nearly indistinguishable from first rounder Will Smith), but he is very raw... former prep QB who played just two seasons of Div. I ball at Georgia Tech. Glover is one of the most prolific sack artists among DTs in NFL history. Not as fast as when he was in his prime with NO (he also turns 32 in 2006), he is still better than he showed in DAL most recently as an out of position 3-4 NT, and should be a marked upgrade in STL. His presence and anticipated inside push should make life a lot easier for Little, and he brings a much needed influx of veteran leadership to a young defense. It is too early to write off Kennedy. He is being counted on to hold up against the run with fellow first round DTs Ryan Pickett and Damione Lewis leaving in FA. Staying out of the training room would be a start.

Backup DL: The Rams war room rolled the dice on talented but tarnished rookie DT Wroten (with the high third rounder DEN paid to move from 15 to 11... the Broncos got their franchise QB and the Rams got their target Tye Hill anyway, just four picks later, effectively adding a pick for free to gamble on a huge upside player they may not have otherwise... kind of like playing with the house's money). He is reminiscent of Warren Sapp in his physical traits, atleticism, skill set as well as their well documented penchant for Cheech and Chong movies. If he can stay clean, Wroten can be a difference maker immediately and groomed to be the eventual replacement of Glover. He has an impressively fully formed and complete game for a youngster, and can both stone the run and get after the QB. Howard is strictly a rotational player and for depth. Rookie Adeyanju has size, run stuffing ability and upside. STL hopes his career continues to retrace that of a fellow Nigerian transplant and Indiana alumni with greater notoriety... Adewale Ogunleye. He will start the season backing up Little and could be his heir apparent. Green has a nice motor and also serves a rotational role.

Linebackers

Starters: WLB Pisa Tinoisamoa, MLB Will Witherspoon, SLB Brandon Chillar

Backups: SLB Raonall Smith, MLB Trev Faulk, OLB Dexter Coakley

Starting LBs: Prized new MLB Witherspoon was a gift in free agency (where some bad contracts precluded the team from being active players in recent seasons... and which saw talent flowing in the wrong direction and departing more often than joining, a state of affairs not helped by some questionable draft picks in the Martz era). He was one of the most coveted FAs from the defensive side of the ball (along with fellow LBs Julian Peterson and LaVar Arrington, but he is younger and without injury questions). He finally fills the gaping hole that was left in the wake of London Fletcher's departure several years ago. He is the consumate three down LB and can run, hit and cover. While most recently playing the Will or weak side LB role in CAR, he has the athleticism and versatility to have play the MIKE (MLB) earlier in his career with the Panthers, performing very well in one of Dan Morgan's annual injury absences. Expect Spoon to make this transition smoothly... he has similar physical traits and skill set to the Jaguars Mike Peterson, one of the top MLBs in the NFL after beginning his career as a WLB with the Colts. Tinoisamoa (Hawaii 5-0) was identified early on by Linehan and the incoming staff as one of the Rams best incumbents on defense, along with Little. He has led the Rams in tackles three years in a row. After a sensational debut in which he made a lot of All Rookie lists (with multiple sacks, INTs & FFs), he had a rough sophomore season in which he reportedly separated his shoulder more than a half dozen times... Tino had surgery prior to the 2005 campaign to clean the shoulder up and didn't appear to have a problem with it during the season. He is a gifted athlete who is only player in San Diego county history to be awarded CIF Player of the Year on both sides of the ball. He had DB like 40 splits and agility drill times at his combine, and is an explosive tackler in the open field. Like Little, he has additional motivation of a contract year. At this point, Rams LB personnel is a big upgrade for Haslett. Chillar (first player of Indian descent in league history) will battle it out with the talented but oft-injured ex-Viking Raonall Smith for the vacant SAM (strong side) LB role.

Backup LBs: Smith is the second defensive player (along with SS Corey Chavous) to come over from the Vikings where Linehan was familiar with their work. He was a relatively high pick (sixth pick in round two of the 2002 draft) whose career has been repeatedly stalled by a frightening litany of injuries... he makes Evil Knievel look like a model of health in comparison. He does represent a nice combination of size and speed (6'2" 245 and reportedly clocked close to a 4.4 earlier in his career). The Rams do have a gaping hole at SLB, so if Chillar falters, the opportunity is wide open to seize the starting gig. Faulk is not starter caliber but is a solid backup and will help on ST. Coakley was an excellent LB for many years with the Cowboys but is in the twilight of his career, returning from a nasty broken leg injury that landed him on IR last season. Along with the since cut fellow LB Chris Claiborne, in retrospect they were ill-advised signings.

Defensive Backs

Starters: SS Corey Chavous, FS Oshimogho Atogwe, CB Jerametrius Butler, CB Fakhir Brown

Backups: CB Tye Hill [r], CB Travis Fisher, CB Dejuan Groce, CB Ronald Bartell, SS Jerome Carter, SS Jon Alston [r]

Starting DBs: The secondary could easily have three new starters by the time the upcoming season rolls around. Draft savant Chavous came early in free agency. His encyclopedic knowledge of players abilities and tendencies will be a big help in getting a young secondary lined up right. The ninth year veteran has a well rounded skill set, and at various times during his career (including four year stints with the Cards and Vikings) has played CB, FS and most recently SS. He is just a few years removed from a ball-hawking 8 INT Pro Bowl season. While not a blow up tackler or as explosive as the talented but flawed Adam Archuleta who he replaces, he shouldn't whiff as much, either, and should be a steadier open field tackler and more reliable last line of defense. Atogwe is an ultra-bright former Stanford Card (where he was a biological sciences major) and has a multi-faceted skill set, too. He was a collegiate sprinter, has ball skills and led Pac-10 in FFs his junior season. Butler looked like an ascendant player before going down with a knee injury last season. Brown comes from the Saints where he alternated between playing nickle CB and starting for Haslett. He is likely to beat out incumbent Travis Fisher, and can slide back to nickle as soon as Tye Hill is ready to start.

Backup DBs: Prized first round shut down CB and future starter Tye Hill was the fastest prospect at the combine. This could prove to be an inspired choice in the pass wacky Wild, Wild (NFC) West. Tighter coverage will allow Haslett to unleash his preferred aggressive blitz packages. Fisher could start but has been constantly hurt past two years and has generally underwhelmed in that time (like Groce, he is in a contract year and may not be back with the team in 2007). Ron Bartell was the team's second round pick last year. He is a physical specimen that was both the biggest AND fastest DB at the 2005 combine. He has the athleticism and versatility to play CB or FS if needed. Small school product (Howard) with a lot of upside but also comes with level of competition concerns... still greener than a St. Patrick's Day parade, and may be another year away from making a bigger contribution. Carter is a vicious striker who has limitations in coverage, looked lost most of last season and could be the victim of a numbers game in the secondary. Third rounder WLB Alston is another former Stanford Card . After clocking a ridiculous 4.4 at combine the Rams will attempt the same WLB/SS conversion as Archuleta (and Michael Boulware), where he could be an upgrade and reunited with Atogwe after Chavous hangs up the cleats. If Tino isn't re-signed in 2007, he could also evolve into the WLB of the future.

 
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Bob, what do you project would happen to Jackson's numbers if/when Bulger is injured again?
The Rams have finally added a competent backup this year in Frerotte. This has me feeling better about drafting Jackson than I would have at the end of last year.
 
599 pass attempts and 342 RB carries doesn't sound like a myth to me.
its relative, joffer...i was speaking more to jax than whether as a team the martz-led rams passed a lot more than ran relative to other, more balanced teams...

i just sensed a lot of people out there were under the impression he didn't get very many touches... 20 per game not an insignificant amount...

though it is relative in other direction, as david pointed out... he has imo very little chance of getting number of carries as guys like LJ, SA & LT... & i don't think he will get enough receptions to bridge the gap? i guess this isn't earth shattering, as nobody puts jax in their class in terms of expectations...

for those out there that were fully aware he had 20 touches per game last season, there may not be a lot of revelations in this thread... but i thought it might be public service if some vaguely thought he got hardly any carries last season, & projected a monster year based on huge uptick of touches... that might not be forthcoming (at least in yards... again, i'm bullish on uptick in TDs) if he doesn't get a lot more than the 20 touches per game he ALREADY got in 2005...
fair enough, i don't think many are expecting a 330+ carry season for Jackson. I'm only projecting 290 myself. What I'm hoping to see is an offense that doesn't abandon the run at the drop of a hat, and I think we'll get that with Linehan. Jackson was RB11 last year standard scoring and RB9 in ppr. He certainly doesn't need much of an increase to justify a top 8 pick.
good post...as i said, he is a player i'm divided on... good ammo from the positive side...

 
I'm not sure where the "myth" part of the title enters into play. Bob and I have debated this in the past, so I think some of this is indirectly pointed at me.

To be sure, yes, Jackson had 20 touches a game on average. While that may be more than some people think or remember, that is still a fair amount less than some of the big boys.

In the past, I pointed out that S-Jax would need a lot more touches and a lot more TD to enter the top tier of RB. I still think he needs both of those to happen to reach the next level, and that's where the debate starts for me . . . how likely is he to get up to the 375-400 touches that the uber studs get and can he approach 15-20 TD?

I'm not sure Faulk retiring automatically would get Jackson more carries, as Fisher IMO is probably a better backup at this point than Faulk is (no offense to the living legend).
Why? Last year through 8 weeks he was the #2 RB in FF (tied with Alexander) despite not getting all those additional touches you're claiming he needs.Jackson has put up enough points per touch to be great without getting a ton of extra touches, and if he does get all those extra touches that's gravy.

 
I'm not sure where the "myth" part of the title enters into play.  Bob and I have debated this in the past, so I think some of this is indirectly pointed at me.

To be sure, yes, Jackson had 20 touches a game on average.  While that may be more than some people think or remember, that is still a fair amount less than some of the big boys.

In the past, I pointed out that S-Jax would need a lot more touches and a lot more TD to enter the top tier of RB. I still think he needs both of those to happen to reach the next level, and that's where the debate starts for me . . . how likely is he to get up to the 375-400 touches that the uber studs get and can he approach 15-20 TD?

I'm not sure Faulk retiring automatically would get Jackson more carries, as Fisher IMO is probably a better backup at this point than Faulk is (no offense to the living legend).
Why? Last year through 8 weeks he was the #2 RB in FF (tied with Alexander) despite not getting all those additional touches you're claiming he needs.Jackson has put up enough points per touch to be great without getting a ton of extra touches, and if he does get all those extra touches that's gravy.
We've been over this in other threads. Jackson was nowhere near the #2 back after 8 weeks. At a minimum Alexander, LT, and James were ranked higher and Barber was close. But they play 16 games, and Jackson clearly did not stay at that level of production.Jackson had 164 touches (20.5 per game) in 8 games that included 659 rushing yards, 218 receiving yards, and 8 total TD. That total came to 135 fantasy points. Expanded over a full season, that would still be 100 points behind the Alexanders of the world. This is somewhat flawed, as it includes his biggest game of his career, a 200 yard effort against the Jags.

In the second half of the season, Jackson had 133 touches (19 per game), 387 rushing yards, 102 receiving yards, and 2 total TD. That totaled 60 fantasy points.

While his first half was great, he experienced the reality of the NFL--that it's tough to put up 16 strong games. His workload was similar from the first half to the next, but his ppg went from 16.8 to 8.5.

Sure, I suppose he could do that well averaging exactly 20 touches a game, but I tend to think it would be unlikely unless he got the workload of the other premiere backs.

 
In the second half of the season, Jackson had 133 touches (19 per game), 387 rushing yards, 102 receiving yards, and 2 total TD. That totaled 60 fantasy points.

While his first half was great, he experienced the reality of the NFL--that it's tough to put up 16 strong games. His workload was similar from the first half to the next, but his ppg went from 16.8 to 8.5.
Refresh my memory Yudkin. Who was QB'ing the second half of the season when SJax stats declined?
 
I'm not sure where the "myth" part of the title enters into play. Bob and I have debated this in the past, so I think some of this is indirectly pointed at me.

To be sure, yes, Jackson had 20 touches a game on average. While that may be more than some people think or remember, that is still a fair amount less than some of the big boys.

In the past, I pointed out that S-Jax would need a lot more touches and a lot more TD to enter the top tier of RB. I still think he needs both of those to happen to reach the next level, and that's where the debate starts for me . . . how likely is he to get up to the 375-400 touches that the uber studs get and can he approach 15-20 TD?

I'm not sure Faulk retiring automatically would get Jackson more carries, as Fisher IMO is probably a better backup at this point than Faulk is (no offense to the living legend).
Why? Last year through 8 weeks he was the #2 RB in FF (tied with Alexander) despite not getting all those additional touches you're claiming he needs.Jackson has put up enough points per touch to be great without getting a ton of extra touches, and if he does get all those extra touches that's gravy.
We've been over this in other threads. Jackson was nowhere near the #2 back after 8 weeks. At a minimum Alexander, LT, and James were ranked higher and Barber was close. But they play 16 games, and Jackson clearly did not stay at that level of production.Jackson had 164 touches (20.5 per game) in 8 games that included 659 rushing yards, 218 receiving yards, and 8 total TD. That total came to 135 fantasy points. Expanded over a full season, that would still be 100 points behind the Alexanders of the world. This is somewhat flawed, as it includes his biggest game of his career, a 200 yard effort against the Jags.

In the second half of the season, Jackson had 133 touches (19 per game), 387 rushing yards, 102 receiving yards, and 2 total TD. That totaled 60 fantasy points.

While his first half was great, he experienced the reality of the NFL--that it's tough to put up 16 strong games. His workload was similar from the first half to the next, but his ppg went from 16.8 to 8.5.

Sure, I suppose he could do that well averaging exactly 20 touches a game, but I tend to think it would be unlikely unless he got the workload of the other premiere backs.
You're right to a point. He was in fact not 2nd, he was behind LT, Alexander, and Edge. To be fair though he was well ahead of Tiki. Jordan was also close.We all know the season is 16 games long, no one is arguing that. But I think it's safe to say there was more to the last 8 games then just Jackson breaking down. The whole Rams team fell apart those last 8 games. They had garbage QB play, a fill-in coach, and went 2-6 down the stretch with one of those wins being against last place Houston. To blame Jackson's drop in perfomance down the stretch mostly on Jackson himself is a major oversight.

 
Nice post Bob.

As a guy sitting on the #7 pick in a 14 team re-draft (non keeper), I've been trying/struggling to figure out the *tier* of guys below "the big 3", Portis, Tiki, and possibly Edge - all of which look to be safer plays. And I keep coming back to Jackson vs. L Jordan/Caddy/Ronnie/Rudi. (and this is not a WDIP)

I'd agree w/ most of the positive points made regarding Jackson's situation, with the most important (IMO) being the addition of Gus, and his familiarity w/ the system, and his ability to take over without sacrificing too much prodution if/when Bulger gets dinged. (worst case for SJ - they'd likely run more :thumbup: ) Nice insurance considering what happend in the 2nd half of the season last year. Glad to hear the O Line and D should be improved as well.

Jackson just looks like the safest pick in this tier for a few more reasons:

1. Holt/Ike/and even Curtis will ALWAYS keep the DBs honest - almost regardless of whose lining up behind the center, and adding some decent TE threats will only help the cause (even if they're rookies)

2. While you can argue that the #s don't lie (when evaluating his 2nd half last season), conversly I think it's ok to attempt to project what he might have done w/o the coaching and qb changes that seemed to cause a lot of problems. Would he have gone for 1500 and 16+ tds? Doubtful, but I can imagine 1300 and 12ish which is what I'm hoping for @ #7 draft wise.

3. I just like the fact that he's on a contending team (division wise) w/ very few changes (aside from the coach/playbook)- especially @ qb and wr around him. And that his opposing divisional Defenses (6 games) are pretty average w/ SEA the only top 10 D from last year. Also, he seems pretty durable thus far, w/ the size, speed and skils (and opportunity) to improve.

4. W/ Faulk being phased out and Jackson coming into his 2nd full year of "starting", combined w/ the possibility of the team running more under Linehan, if he can manage to start all 16 games I can envision 275/1265/12 type #s. And the only guy that might be considered safer (with slightly lower upside) would be Rudi. Jackson looks like a lock for 20+ touches which you MUST have to be considered a mid first rounder.

Jordan is dealing w/ a new coach and qb, and I'm not enough of a gambler @ #7 to try Ronnie or Caddy yet. Flashes of brillance are nice, but I don't want to bet my FF season on yet to be proven talent, especially w/ Simms or a banged up Dante causing more concerns.

Again, not WDIP @ #7, but anyone else here drafting 6/7/8 that has thoughts on who they like better and why for debate?

 
I like Jackson's skills and this offense , but owning him in a keeper, Ive gone over his prospects for '06 with a fine tooth comb. His schedule for weeks 6-11 will absolutely make or break anyone who owns him this year. He'll play 5 games vs top 7 rushing Ds from a year ago, and have his bye. Two games against Seattle, a home game vs KC, and ROAD games against SD and Carolina which were ranked #1 and #4 in the NFL last year and were very stingy giving up the rushing TDs. Seattle allowed a total of 5 rushing TDs all year least season. But think about that.....during that stretch, for 3 out of 4 weeks theyll have ROAD games vs Seattle, San Diego and Carolina.....all top 5 rushing Ds. Things definitely change from year to year in the NFL, but I just wanted to point that out.

 
I like Jackson's skills and this offense , but owning him in a keeper, Ive gone over his prospects for '06 with a fine tooth comb.  His schedule for weeks 6-11 will absolutely make or break anyone who owns him this year.  He'll play 5 games vs top 7 rushing Ds from a year ago, and have his bye.  Two games against Seattle, a home game vs KC, and ROAD games against SD and Carolina which were ranked #1 and #4 in the NFL last year and were very stingy giving up the rushing TDs.  Seattle allowed a total of 5 rushing TDs all year least season.  But think about that.....during that stretch, for 3 out of 4 weeks theyll have ROAD games vs Seattle, San Diego and Carolina.....all top 5 rushing Ds.  Things definitely change from year to year in the NFL, but I just wanted to point that out.
that is a sobering look at SOS against run defenses...KC might be a little suspect, though... they were #7 against run but about #30 against pass... offenses may have emphasized the pass because they were almost incentivized to by chiefs difficulties in coverage... though by that logic, that might lead to rams also passing more & running less against chiefs...

 
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For some reason, no one recalls that the Rams continued to pass a lot at the end of the season because of their horrific defense. Yes it was a passing system because of MM but really, does anyone think that the Rams defense will be good enough to actually allow Steve to get 22+ carries a game? I just think that Mike was not the only cause of a pass heavy offense. If you think that Steve will get 10+ tds thats fine, but if you think he gets over 300 attempts that might be a little much.

 
The KC game could be a great showcase game for 2 of the better young RBs in the league. I agree that it's not just that KC's run D is so strong, but that they just score so many points and run the ball so well themselves, that teams are forced to throw alot to keep up with the scoring frenzy......that the secondary of course was very generous. The Rams D scares me a little, and hopefully some of their offseason moves will pay. Im glad they let Archuletta walk.....that guy was one of the worst cover guys Ive ever seen. His replacement will be a general improvement. the Carolina LB coming over who's name escapes me will hopefully help. Tye Hill will help them tremedously in the secondary, but they really need to find a way to play some better team D so that the Rams arent forced into shootouts all the time. Jackson should have a solid year, but during that 'trial' stretch, just dont expect him to carry you.

 
the Rams D will be a big time question mark, imo. Haslett will be the D coordinator, but that guy hasnt coached a good D since his days with the Steelers several years ago, and last I checked that Steelers D has been pretty solid ever since he left, so I doubt he had a great deal to do with that. But we'll see. My gut tells me theyre a lower third D again, and will have trouble stopping the run.

 
Thanks for posting your report, Bob. Followup question (and one that has pretty much nothing to do with SJax): where do you think Bartell ends up ultimately, CB or S?

 
Hey SoloMatisse and dcbreber, I'm skeptical of the Rams defense this year too. I thought they were a weak front 7 team last year, and then they seemed to put most of their effort into upgrading the secondary. And if Butler's healthy and Hill's not starting, that's not a pick that will have a big immediate impact, as they will just be trading out someone like Fisher or Ivy (who ended up with B'More, correct?) for Hill at the nickel. And Haslett may frown a lot, but contrary to what some prognosticators seem to assume, that doesn't necessarily make a defense better. He had a lot more talent than Marmie had to work with, and his defense wasn't a lot better.

Back to SJax, another problem with the assumption that MM's "mad" offense was dragging down his productivity is that it overlooks the fact that Martz wanted to give him the ball more, yet it seemed like every time they tried to make him the workhorse he got hurt. So,

even if Linehan wants to give SJax more carries (not just touches),

& even if the Rams D improves significantly (it had better be significantly better) to let the Rams take time to "develop" the run in games where they can't initially,

SJax still may not be up to the task.

 
latest was that they were working him at both positions...

at CB, i think fisher is on the way out, but that could still leave ex-saint fakhir brown (brought by haslett), butler (if he comes back strong from knee injury) & of course the first rounder hill, who may not start immediately but has the talent to quickly push for the job...

at S, he would be behind projected starter OJ atogwe, but that isn't set in stone... if atogwe falters & bartell steps up, he could start (jerome carter could be in the mix, but i think he is better fit as chavous backup... a big hitter with questionable coverage ability)... i think in the saints scheme SS & FS are supposedly pretty interchangeable...

i'm not sure if bartell has great instincts & recognition ability, which might make him less of a fit at S than CB?

 
Bob you used the words touches a few times, IE 20 touches. That's something I look for for guys like Westbrook and Barber that are super dual threats. Jackson seems more like a workhorse type back no?

254 carries seems awfully low and 320 receiving yards isn't wow-ing me.

Curious what you think about that? What you think about guys filling prototypes too? IE Westbrook you wanna see get X amount of touches? Jackson you'd like to see get how many carries? What do you look for/hope for?
:popcorn:
 
Hey SoloMatisse and dcbreber, I'm skeptical of the Rams defense this year too. I thought they were a weak front 7 team last year, and then they seemed to put most of their effort into upgrading the secondary. And if Butler's healthy and Hill's not starting, that's not a pick that will have a big immediate impact, as they will just be trading out someone like Fisher or Ivy (who ended up with B'More, correct?) for Hill at the nickel. And Haslett may frown a lot, but contrary to what some prognosticators seem to assume, that doesn't necessarily make a defense better. He had a lot more talent than Marmie had to work with, and his defense wasn't a lot better.

Back to SJax, another problem with the assumption that MM's "mad" offense was dragging down his productivity is that it overlooks the fact that Martz wanted to give him the ball more, yet it seemed like every time they tried to make him the workhorse he got hurt. So,

even if Linehan wants to give SJax more carries (not just touches),

& even if the Rams D improves significantly (it had better be significantly better) to let the Rams take time to "develop" the run in games where they can't initially,

SJax still may not be up to the task.
I do not expect big things at all from the Rams D. I actually think they made some balanced acquistions through FA and the draft on the D side of the ball, but of course that's all currently a lab experiment. We'll have to wait and see. But theyre not typically good, so I wont be overly optimistic. There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy. Mike Martz' Offensive ingenuity revolved around WRs with speed, brilliant routes, and a RB named MARSHALL FAULK. Once Marshall's skills started to decline, the 'Greatest Show' was no more. His ingenuity certainly didnt revolve around the running game.....before or since Jackson. Martz reputation was built on the skills of 3 All Pro skills players in Faulk, Bruce and Holt. Take players of that skill level away from him, and he's just another schmoe of an offensive coach. He was overrated as a coordinator, an absolutely brutal HC, and the Rams will be a much better team if not this season, then in the very near future WITHOUT Mike Martz running the show. Martz' absence is my primary reason for optimism with Steven Jackson.

 
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Bob you used the words touches a few times, IE 20 touches. That's something I look for for guys like Westbrook and Barber that are super dual threats. Jackson seems more like a workhorse type back no?

254 carries seems awfully low and 320 receiving yards isn't wow-ing me.

Curious what you think about that? What you think about guys filling prototypes too? IE Westbrook you wanna see get X amount of touches? Jackson you'd like to see get how many carries? What do you look for/hope for?
:popcorn:
hey bri,right, some RBs don't get as many carries as others... if they don't make it up with extra receptions that could be a problem. reception can be an equalizer in terms of total touches (carries AND receptions)...

a guy like westbrook needs that kind of equalizer, as he doesn't get the big rushing work load of traditional smashmouth RB like rudi johnson or jamal lewis... an exceptional receiving RB like westbrook (probably best now for past few years with decline of faulk... tiki also very good as you noted) can more than make up the gap in lost carries, though... if he gets 70+ receptions & 800-900 receiving yards, he only needs to get 700-800 rushing yards (50 a game?) to total 1,500-1,700 combined yards... RB like jamal that gets 100 yards receiving has a lot of ground to make up...

westbrook is a huge difference maker & potential top 5 RB in some PPR leagues... compared to lewis, 900 receiving yards and 70 receptions might equal something like 160 extra points... which would = 25+ TD bonus? :)

you are right... jax may not neatly fit into either category... didn't get workhorse carries as SA, LJ & LT, or as many receptions as westbrook & tiki... though others have pointed out that he is borderline top 10 with upside even given conservative projections (not cherry picking & doubling his superior first half)... & even without needing to gloss over the poor second half, which did coincide with bulger's injury & it isn't a stretch to think it can & will be improved on.

so it may not matter if he doesn't get workhorse carries or WR-like, receiving RB receptions...

i do think he will get more carries from linehan as he has more balanced attack, i am projecting defense to be better... also, he could get more receptions, as imo martz underutilized him... he has natural hands, doesn't fight ball & can catch away from his body...

greater use of RB (& TE) would jibe with move away from martz's high risk offense with long, slow developing patterns that got QB clobbered... & towards higher percentage, quicker hitting plays that protect QB & emphasize safer ways to move the ball...

 
Hey SoloMatisse and dcbreber, I'm skeptical of the Rams defense this year too. I thought they were a weak front 7 team last year, and then they seemed to put most of their effort into upgrading the secondary. And if Butler's healthy and Hill's not starting, that's not a pick that will have a big immediate impact, as they will just be trading out someone like Fisher or Ivy (who ended up with B'More, correct?) for Hill at the nickel. And Haslett may frown a lot, but contrary to what some prognosticators seem to assume, that doesn't necessarily make a defense better. He had a lot more talent than Marmie had to work with, and his defense wasn't a lot better.

Back to SJax, another problem with the assumption that MM's "mad" offense was dragging down his productivity is that it overlooks the fact that Martz wanted to give him the ball more, yet it seemed like every time they tried to make him the workhorse he got hurt. So,

even if Linehan wants to give SJax more carries (not just touches),

& even if the Rams D improves significantly (it had better be significantly better) to let the Rams take time to "develop" the run in games where they can't initially,

SJax still may not be up to the task.
I do not expect big things at all from the Rams D. I actually think they made some balanced acquistions through FA and the draft on the D side of the ball, but of course that's all currently a lab experiment. We'll have to wait and see. But theyre not typically good, so I wont be overly optimistic. There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy. Mike Martz' Offensive ingenuity revolved around WRs with speed, brilliant routes, and a RB named MARSHALL FAULK. Once Marshall's skills started to decline, the 'Greatest Show' was no more. His ingenuity certainly didnt revolve around the running game.....before or since Jackson. Martz reputation was built on the skills of 3 All Pro skills players in Faulk, Bruce and Holt. Take players of that skill level away from him, and he's just another schmoe of an offensive coach. He was overrated as a coordinator, an absolutely brutal HC, and the Rams will be a much better team if not this season, then in the very near future WITHOUT Mike Martz running the show. Martz' absence is my primary reason for optimism with Steven Jackson.
responding to both JR & solo matisse here,as to improvements mostly confined to secondary...

they added glover who may be old but will be improvement over pickett & lewis... he is one of most prolific sack artists from interior DL in NFL history... not sure he gets DD sacks anymore, but they will be better... hargrove was very raw (prep QB only played two years in college) and even some of the greats didn't take off until third or fourth year... he could be primed for a big year (has same measurables as will smith)... little may be on way down, but he had potential long prison sentence hanging over him from 2004 until before last season, then his brother was murdered in season last year... he should be at his most focused since... 2001-2003, when he was pro bowl caliber... claude wroten might have been top 20 overall pick... it was risky, but the payoff could be huge... he could be better 3 technique DT than bunkley, ngata & mccargo, the first rounders...

i thought rams would be improved last year & was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG... so it would be hard to not question whether i am wrong this time, too... but i think by just about any measure, witherspoon is a huge upgrade over likes of robert thomas, jamie duncan, chris claiborne... he was very coveted FA by a lot of teams, probably on par with julian peterson & more than lavar arrington... i'm not sure how much one guy can elevate a defense (they had other additions), but he could have mike peterson like ability, skills & projection to MLB... barring injury, that HAS to help a lot... this doesn't factor in big impact by alston, who could be a good one, but i don't have a good sense of what his role & contribution will be this year...

as to questioning hill... dropping down did allow them to scoop up wroten, too, which has to be factored in... sure, when you have as many holes as they did you could make a case that greenway or lawson or jason allen would have helped, also, who they could have gotten with #15 pick...

but imo secondary was a need... hill has talent to quickly push for starting role & become the rams top CB...

concept of BPA was a little fuzzy this year, when about 30 prospects from mid-first to mid-second carried roughly same grade... that observation came up a lot that many teams were filling needs & plugging holes... & when a team like rams has many holes, clearly there are multiple directions by which you could still satisfy criteria of filling a need well... STL could have used DT (though they got wroten later), SLB, FS... but also CB... remember they are in same division as SEA & ARI...

i like fact that rams in past three drafts have filled needs AND arguably got best BPA at respective position... jax in 2004 was consensus #1 RB (with mcgahee injured) and faulk was nearly done, 2005 barron was arguably #1 OT (jamaal brown also highly thought of... ironically they have switched sides... LT at RT & RT at LT) & RT had been revolving door with unexpected "retirement" of turley, hill probably #1 CB (if huff, whitner & allen are safeties... some would say cromartie or jimmie williams, but they had injury, experience or character questions & hill was cleaner)...

i agree haslett didn't have great defensive record at NO (or DC there venturi)... but i keep telling myself that he HAS to be better than marmie... doesn't he? :)

NO had great talent on DL, but rams may be good with little, hargrove, glover & wroten...

NO had terrible LBs in recent seasons, & imo witherspoon & tino HUGE upgrade for him...

rams have questions at CB, but at least chavous is heady & experienced, & atogwe, butler & hill have promise... & its not like NO had awesome secondary past few years...

i'll have to get back to solo matisse later...

but i would just add that a cursory look at recent season stats makes me think it isn't THAT rare to have good RB with bad defense... KC had bad defense in recent years & priest was stellar... LT & barry sanders are examples deeper back... but i don't think we have to go that far... rudi pretty good though CIN having bad run defense... colts had poor defense for long time... edge succeeded in spite of that due to defense being spread out... but jackson could enjoy similar defensive distraction with guys like bulger, holt, bruce, curtis, good looking rookie TEs... that has to be one of deepest set of receiving weapons in NFL...

 
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There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy.
Seriously? Because I don't have to think back very far to come up with quite a list of them.How'd the Rams defense rank in Faulk's hey-day? Wasn't it pretty much historically bad during his 2000+ yds, 26 TD year? The KC defense was equally poor during Priest's hey-day, and if I recall SD wasn't exactly shutting opponents out throughout the first 4 years of LT's career in which he was certainly a premiere RB. The same applies to Alexander (like SD Seattle's D has improved recently but it was still quite poor during several of Alexander's years as a remiere RB). Likewise, the Indy defense only just got better this year yet Edge has been a premiere RB for years. Deuce was a premiere RB prior to his injury problems and he's never played with anything better than an awful defense. Jordan put up some pretty nice numbers last year with a pathetic Oakland defense.
 
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There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy. 
Seriously? Because I don't have to think back very far to come up with quite a list of them.How'd the Rams defense rank in Faulk's hey-day? Wasn't it pretty much historically bad during his 2000+ yds, 26 TD year? The KC defense was equally poor during Priest's hey-day, and if I recall SD wasn't exactly shutting opponents out throughout the first 4 years of LT's career in which he was certainly a premiere RB. The same applies to Alexander (like SD Seattle's D has improved recently but it was still quite poor during several of Alexander's years as a remiere RB). Likewise, the Indy defense only just got better this year yet Edge has been a premiere RB for years. Deuce was a premiere RB prior to his injury problems and he's never played with anything better than an awful defense. Jordan put up some pretty nice numbers last year with a pathetic Oakland defense.
Dont even try throwing Deuce and Jordan in that 'premier' category. You gave me four names....Faulk, Tomlinson, Alexander and Edge. Those are 4 premier guys and 4 future HOFers. One more in Priest, who is a guy that ran behind the league's best Oline for several years. Not a HOFer, but there was obvious dominance there. Strong rush D....DOMINANT Oline.....you get the point. Are you seeing any of this in StLouis?? Like I said, very FEW........For the record, KC's rush D was ranked 7th last year, Seattle's was ranked 5th and San Diego ranked 1st in the league. Forget about Indy's......and in the Rams heyday, atleast the year they won the SB, they were ranked 6th in the league overall, but that's irrelevant because to compare other RBs to Faulk .....or any of the other RBs on this list here is pointless. Again, those are HOFers.....Jackson needs to prove his worth before entering a rightful conversation here...........and IM a Jackson owner.

Im not all about splitting hairs, man. I said there were few....there are few.

 
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There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy. 
Seriously? Because I don't have to think back very far to come up with quite a list of them.How'd the Rams defense rank in Faulk's hey-day? Wasn't it pretty much historically bad during his 2000+ yds, 26 TD year? The KC defense was equally poor during Priest's hey-day, and if I recall SD wasn't exactly shutting opponents out throughout the first 4 years of LT's career in which he was certainly a premiere RB. The same applies to Alexander (like SD Seattle's D has improved recently but it was still quite poor during several of Alexander's years as a remiere RB). Likewise, the Indy defense only just got better this year yet Edge has been a premiere RB for years. Deuce was a premiere RB prior to his injury problems and he's never played with anything better than an awful defense. Jordan put up some pretty nice numbers last year with a pathetic Oakland defense.
Dont even try throwing Deuce and Jordan in that 'premier' category. You gave me four names....Faulk, Tomlinson, Alexander and Edge. Those are 4 premier guys and 4 future HOFers. One more in Priest, who is a guy that ran behind the league's best Oline for several years. Not a HOFer, but there was obvious dominance there. Strong rush D....DOMINANT Oline.....you get the point. Are you seeing any of this in StLouis?? Like I said, very FEW........For the record, KC's rush D was ranked 7th last year, Seattle's was ranked 5th and San Diego ranked 1st in the league. Forget about Indy's......and in the Rams heyday, atleast the year they won the SB, they were ranked 6th in the league overall, but that's irrelevant because to compare other RBs to Faulk .....or any of the other RBs on this list here is pointless. Again, those are HOFers.....Jackson needs to prove his worth before entering a rightful conversation here...........and IM a Jackson owner.

Im not all about splitting hairs, man. I said there were few....there are few.
while jax may not be premier RB by your definition, he could still be VERY, VERY good for fantasy purposes (#11 in FBG scoring in 2005 & ranked #7 in FBG consensus for 2006)...as to four premier RBs you mentioned (guess it was five with priest :) )... that is most of them recently, right? while those kind of RBs may be rare in comparison to ALL RBs (including non-premier)... your point was that it is pretty rare for premier RB to be coupled with poor defense... whereas, it seems like with a lot of these guys (on percentage basis), that was the case... its not like there were 20-30 premier RBs in recent years... by definition, it would be a very rare group...

looking at your examples...

KC was #7 against rush... but that could have been because how easy they were to throw against (#30), & fact that offense was so good, it forced opposing offenses to throw... they were #16 in total (scoring) defense... not terrible on latter stat, but not great...

SEA was #5 against rush but #23 IN 2004, #28 against pass (#14 total)

SD was great last season, but LT was great long before last season... citing a 2005 stat doesn't disprove that LT had some great years when SD had a mediocre defense...

why forget about IND? they are an excellent example of great RB coupled to bad defense (prior to 2005, which is most of edge's career)... & i think edge & IND point the way for a very important distinction to make when looking at how, & to what extent defenses play a role in allowing a RB to become premier (or if there is a connection at all?)...

imo, a better way to break down whether a given team will facilitate & support stats for a great RB is whether or not they were a WINNING team (or even, not losing... close to .500 better than losing)...

when viewed through this lens, it resolves some of these questions, & shows that maybe looking at whether the defense was great or not is the wrong question...

there is more than one way to win, & not all of them include having defense as good as NE or PIT... for instance, giving up 24 points every week is devestating if you average 20 yourself... not so bad if you average 30... if you are winning 30-20 late in the game, you can sit on the lead by running the ball... for that matter, even if it is tied 30-30 (or you are down by less than a TD in third quarter, etc) you can keep running...

this state of affairs describes colts & chiefs in recent years very well... the rams USED to be good enough to maintain a rushing attack if they chose even giving up 24+ points... but they haven't been that good for a few years... for a few reasons... poor drafting (on OL), salary cap problems (mismanagement?) precluding getting help in FA, injuries... led to revolving door at RT after ryan tucker & before & after turley... & age-related decline & injuries have caused a lot of attrition in interior OL... faulks knees have disintegrated... risky protection schemes & slow developing deep passing patterns have taking a toll on warner & bulger since the super bowl glory days (warner almost lost ability to stare down the gun barrell & ignore rush toward end of his STL tenure... didn't notice this with bulger, but they both missed time with injuries)...

anyway, their offense hasn't been good enough for a few years to overcome poor defense... another problem is they amassed great yardage totals throughout martz era, but since super bowl era of 1999 & 2001 (& probably coinciding with QB injuries, OL problems, erosion of faulk's skills) have traditionally struggled in red zone... we touched on THAT elsewhere in thread...

so while it would be great if defense got a lot better (or at least competent, middle of the pack), it might not matter if their OFFENSE gets better (& specifically not just at moving ball but in red zone, too), & good enough to win more, or at least be competitive and still in games in second half... that has been the MO of IND & KC in recent years...

as for dominant OLs, nobody called SD a dominant OL when LT broke into league... & IND may have no pro bowlers (did tarik glenn ever win? i really don't know, & he is clearly their best OL)... it seems like a few of the IND interior OL (OGs?) that got paid decent money in FA have been nothing special & were arguably proven system players... having great talent at QB, RB & three deep at WR puts tremendous pressure on defenses, & the rams appear to have that... another way to look at how great IND OL is or isn't is to see how thoroughly dismantled they were by PIT in playoffs last season... not sure tiki's line could be called great (your point is well taken that KC & SEA no doubt have had dominant OLs for priest, LJ & SA)...

if barron plays up to his potential, & until pace goes downhill, STL could have one of better bookend OT tandems in the NFL... guys like incognito will help reload & solidify the aging interior OL core (ie - timmerman & mccollum)...

 
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Bob youre making some good points here. regarding the Indy reference, I meant to say 'forgot' rather than 'forget'.....as in I forgot what their ranking was. And I wasnt suggesting they had a dominant line....I was referring to that Chiefs line while Priest was putting up the monster #s. Clearly though, unless a player is a very rare all-world talent like Tomlinson, who is a player that comes along about once every ten years, then the key factors for a back's success are not hard to identify.....good line, good defense, balanced O......all of these elements generally result in the wins you were speaking of. While its important to be able to identify each of these elements within the respective teams, its equally important not to generalize too much......Im as guilty of this as anyone.

 
There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy.
Seriously? Because I don't have to think back very far to come up with quite a list of them.How'd the Rams defense rank in Faulk's hey-day? Wasn't it pretty much historically bad during his 2000+ yds, 26 TD year? The KC defense was equally poor during Priest's hey-day, and if I recall SD wasn't exactly shutting opponents out throughout the first 4 years of LT's career in which he was certainly a premiere RB. The same applies to Alexander (like SD Seattle's D has improved recently but it was still quite poor during several of Alexander's years as a remiere RB). Likewise, the Indy defense only just got better this year yet Edge has been a premiere RB for years. Deuce was a premiere RB prior to his injury problems and he's never played with anything better than an awful defense. Jordan put up some pretty nice numbers last year with a pathetic Oakland defense.
Dont even try throwing Deuce and Jordan in that 'premier' category. You gave me four names....Faulk, Tomlinson, Alexander and Edge. Those are 4 premier guys and 4 future HOFers. One more in Priest, who is a guy that ran behind the league's best Oline for several years. Not a HOFer, but there was obvious dominance there. Strong rush D....DOMINANT Oline.....you get the point. Are you seeing any of this in StLouis?? Like I said, very FEW........For the record, KC's rush D was ranked 7th last year, Seattle's was ranked 5th and San Diego ranked 1st in the league. Forget about Indy's......and in the Rams heyday, atleast the year they won the SB, they were ranked 6th in the league overall, but that's irrelevant because to compare other RBs to Faulk .....or any of the other RBs on this list here is pointless. Again, those are HOFers.....Jackson needs to prove his worth before entering a rightful conversation here...........and IM a Jackson owner.

Im not all about splitting hairs, man. I said there were few....there are few.
Ok seriously....you're making a very very odd argument here. You're saying it's rare for a RB to be a premiere RB on a team with a bad defense, but writing off the guys that did that because they were premiere. They're future hall of famers as you said.....NO KIDDING. You were looking for "premiere" RBs, right?Yes..KC, SD, and Seattle all had solid defenses this year. I said that....but they also had seasons as premiere RBs when their defenses were awful.

How is that list relevant to only a few? That was only off the top of my head and only recently. Considering you're not calling a guy like Deuce a "premiere" RB a few years back, there are very few RBs that fall into your category of "premiere". And as such, listing off 4 or 5 is a large percentage of them. How many "premiere" RBs have their been by your seemingly strict definitely of "premiere" the last few years? 10? So listing off 4 or 5 of those seems to indicate that there isn't really a correlation between defenses and "premiere" RBs. Considering you don't consider 2000 yards (Deuce) or 1600/11 (Jordan) premiere, it seems to me the point to be made here is that there are few premiere RBs period, not that there are few premiere RBs with poor defenses because it would appear that of the limited number of premiere RBs out there, just as many of them had poor defenses as had good ones.

Let's not forget that you mentioned you've rarely EVER (with "ever" nice and big in all caps) seen premiere RBs with poor defenses, yet we only have to go back a few years (not forever) to find a whole handful of them.

And of course as you said Jackson isn't a Priest or Alexander yet. That has no relevance to the arguement at hand. At this point in their careers Priest or Alexander weren't either. Heck, they hadn't accomplished a fourth of what Sjax has accomplished at this point in his career at the same point in theirs. We're predicting the future here, who knows if 5 years from now Jackson will be regarded as better or worse than them. But even that point aside it doesn't really matter, because that's not the arguement at hand.

 
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Bagel-

Listen my good man. Im not in here to argue with anyone. You mention the word "arguement" a couple of times. Im only here to make points and acquire information. There's a big difference. If I wanted to get into an arguement with someone over team rush D and its implications on the success of RBs, Id roll on down to the barber shop. In here, it aint happenin'. Thats not my schtick, so if you wanna argue with yourself, go on. Im just not in. But the point I made in the original post which you keep revisiting is so unbelievably simple that Im not clear on why youd want to 'argue' it anyway. I stated, in regards to Steven Jackson's chances at hitting 'premier' RB status this year, which we'll say for the sake of your "arguement" and the list of studs you dropped is top 5 status, was the following, "There are very FEW premier RBs that Ive EVER seen whose Defenses are so sketchy". Youre on me about this line? So, Ive stated what I view premier as. I'll define sketchy in this case as 30th overall in the NFL....THIRTIETH! The Rams had the 30th ranked total D last year, 28th vs the run and 23rd vs the pass. Thats 'sketchy'. Why is that hard to figure? So, if you feel like doin' some research, go right ahead. Find some premier RBs over the past 20 years whose Ds were as sketchy.....or 30th overall in the NFL or 28th vs the run. Id save you the time, and tell you not to bother, but Im curious now. So, if you come up with more than a "FEW", you'll have won this "arguement". The 4 teams last year whose run D was worse than the Rams were the Jets, Cleveland, Buffalo, and the Niners. No premier guys there. Look at what that awful rush D did for Willis McGahee's stats last year. The Bills were 29th overall and 31st vs the run in '05. We know how well McGahee did. The year before that, when Willis rushed for 1100plus yds in limited starts with 13 or 14 TDs, Buffalo's D was 2nd overall and 7th vs the run. And I wouldnt consider him a premier guy. But clearly you see the implications. Why is that hard to understand? Im up before the chickens here, so Im crawling back in, but Id love to see what you come up with when you find the time.

 
greater use of RB (& TE) would jibe with move away from martz's high risk offense with long, slow developing patterns that got QB clobbered... & towards higher percentage, quicker hitting plays that protect QB & emphasize safer ways to move the ball...
interesting post Bob.If you've got time, I wouldn't mind reading the differences between a Martz and Linehan scheme and trying to project how the players will do.

Off the top of my head-I figure TE actually gets used in STL for a change. Holt should be fine/similar and play the more classic type #1 role. Bruce/Curtis whoever is 2 will take a big hit and Jax should get more carries(like you said).

 

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