Is parity the goal?
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Subtle tanking is dynasty leagues biggest problem (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hoss_Cartwright
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Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
I like parity, but the most important reason for what I proposed is to prevent owners from affecting who makes the playoffs because of their tanking, and to prevent owners from bettering their draft position because of subtle tanking. I'm definitely against toilet bowls to determine draft order. That's not good for the long term health of the league, because bad teams don't get better, and you it makes it harder to find owners for abandoned teams.
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And that's the dilemma - sorry to just restate the obvious - isn't it? There are some good ideas in this thread for avoiding tanking, but they remove a crutch for weak teams in need of rebuilding, so you have to make a choice. I agree with you on the most important reason though. I would choose integrity of the playoffs over parity if it was me.What about an auction draft? Does anyone do this in dynasty leagues but without any contracts or salaries tied to the auction?Or maybe other benefits in the draft that help achieve parity, rather than reverse draft order - extra picks between rounds for example? There's no reason reverse draft order has to be the only means to parity, is there?
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
I personally don't like auctions, but I understand and respect those who do like them. I swear the best proposal yet (by riffraff) is the accumulation of potential points for the regular season, and the bottom 4 (least accumulated potential points) gets the top 4 picks. I suggest 5-12 (for a 12 team league) be based on wins / losses, like most leagues do today.
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I would suggest that potential points is probably a better indicator of a team's true relative strength then their win/loss record anyway. People constantly complain about the luck factor. This takes away much of that factor. I would suggest using it to seed all non-playoff teams for the rookie draft.Hoss_Cartwright said:
exactly....and one or 2 of the better teams got Slaton and/or CJohnsonneedless to say, w/15 dynasty leagues, I have my share of these issues---there will most always be that 1 guy that skirts the issue by starting a marginal player in hopes of landing the 1.1, when in reality a team that bad is usually maoe than 1 player away
I set my dynasty leagues up as 14 team---start 9
with 98 QB--RB--WR/TE's starting each week (14X7 position players), an owner is going to need more than 1 stud player comming out of the draft to make this strategy pay off
in the meantime, we collect $115-a-pop towards a $1475 payout, so the price to continually "play to lose" gets pretty high
as an aside, I've replaced more owners w/a top-3 rookie pick than owners w/strong rosters up and down, so again---in the long run--the strategy simply does not work
can I PM you w/any Misfit and Outlaw openings this offseason? Except, like Herm would say, you play to win the game. Though they overlap, scoring a lot of points and winning games are not exactly the same thing in fantasy football. The potential points thing looks like the BCS branching out into consulting fantasy leagues.Hoss_Cartwright said:
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Yeah, that sounds good (fluff), but it isn't realistic.CBower4545 said:can I PM you w/any Misfit and Outlaw openings this offseason?
well said, my friend, well said
Also, on the accumulated potential points thing, a rebuilding team that realistically can't win playoff games shouldn't be stocking its roster with the kind of depth that builds up those potential points. They should have more younger guys who may not be playing as much and thus not scoring as much. That may seem like subtle tanking in a way. How do you know if the accumulated potential points ranking is rewarding lack of talent or some particular roster strategy?
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Potential points with regards to depth only come into play if those players score more than the starters, otherwise, it doesn't matter what the depth is. If an owner is starting on a consistent basis his best players, then on average and spread out over the course of an entire season, his best potential points are in his starting lineup.
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of course we'd all like to believe we can build a league/leagues where the owners operate that way---and that it isn't 100% realisticbut I'm a "believe in karma" kinda guy...in that you:Yeah, that sounds good (fluff), but it isn't realistic.CBower4545 said:can I PM you w/any Misfit and Outlaw openings this offseason?
well said, my friend, well said
-you reap what you sow
-what goes 'round, comes 'round
and "if you play to be the worst", well, you'll be just that--the worst...and not just for that year
I know you've poo-poo'd "how's the McFadden @1.1 working out for those owners" w/a "well, the guy w/Adrian Peterson is doing pretty well" arguement
yes--AP has certainly earned his draft position more so than McFadden...but that is the roulette that goes w/1.1
and I'll restate that I've intentionally set my leagues up as 14 team--start 7 position players (9 total starters), and cap dynasty rosters @20, w/1 IR spot
no one...I mean NO ONE...has successfully worked the "I'll play for the 1.1 and rule the league for 5 years thereafter" game in any of my leagues
way too much put into this "subtle tanking" issue, and the "dynasty" it creates for the owner that plays that game
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coolnerd
Footballguy
Unfortunately, as the posts through this thread prove there is not a good way to legislate subtle tanking w/o legislating how people manage their roster, so getting as many good people is the best answer even if is not the answer you would like to see.Yeah, that sounds good (fluff), but it isn't realistic.CBower4545 said:can I PM you w/any Misfit and Outlaw openings this offseason?
well said, my friend, well said
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
You're forgetting the most important reason for discouraging subtle tanking, and that it threatens league integrity when owners give games away to teams that affect the playoff picture, all for the sake of improving their draft position.of course we'd all like to believe we can build a league/leagues where the owners operate that way---and that it isn't 100% realisticbut I'm a "believe in karma" kinda guy...in that you:Yeah, that sounds good (fluff), but it isn't realistic.CBower4545 said:
well said, my friend, well said
-you reap what you sow
-what goes 'round, comes 'round
and "if you play to be the worst", well, you'll be just that--the worst...and not just for that year
I know you've poo-poo'd "how's the McFadden @1.1 working out for those owners" w/a "well, the guy w/Adrian Peterson is doing pretty well" arguement
yes--AP has certainly earned his draft position more so than McFadden...but that is the roulette that goes w/1.1
and I'll restate that I've intentionally set my leagues up as 14 team--start 7 position players (9 total starters), and cap dynasty rosters @20, w/1 IR spot
no one...I mean NO ONE...has successfully worked the "I'll play for the 1.1 and rule the league for 5 years thereafter" game in any of my leagues
way too much put into this "subtle tanking" issue, and the "dynasty" it creates for the owner that plays that game
dirty_martini
Footballguy
PP is an interesting option. But that too can be manipulated through the composition of your bench.
Something to do before you settle on PP as your answer. Look at your current leagues PP and compare it with the standings. If your league is like mine, you might find the team with the lowest PP currently in the playoffs. That indicates to me that PP might not be the best indicator of a teams strength.
Here's a possible reason. Say I have a team full of up and down guys - the Lee Evans type - the chances of one being on my bench when he goes off is pretty high. So my PP is likely to be higher than say a team full of more steady players. Does that mean I have the stronger team? Or say I carry 4 QB's on my roster because well basically they are all marginal and I'm playing matchups. So it's fairly likely that one of my bench QBs will outscore my starter any given week. Thus my PP will be more than the actual points by a larger margin that say a team with a stud qb, and his backup. Does that mean he has the weaker team? Probably not. Now, you might think that the STUD QB will outscore the marginal qbs every week so his PP will higher. Maybe not. Look at your leagues actual scores and see. Any given week, I'll bet that about 4 of the top 10 scoring QBs were not started.
Something to do before you settle on PP as your answer. Look at your current leagues PP and compare it with the standings. If your league is like mine, you might find the team with the lowest PP currently in the playoffs. That indicates to me that PP might not be the best indicator of a teams strength.
Here's a possible reason. Say I have a team full of up and down guys - the Lee Evans type - the chances of one being on my bench when he goes off is pretty high. So my PP is likely to be higher than say a team full of more steady players. Does that mean I have the stronger team? Or say I carry 4 QB's on my roster because well basically they are all marginal and I'm playing matchups. So it's fairly likely that one of my bench QBs will outscore my starter any given week. Thus my PP will be more than the actual points by a larger margin that say a team with a stud qb, and his backup. Does that mean he has the weaker team? Probably not. Now, you might think that the STUD QB will outscore the marginal qbs every week so his PP will higher. Maybe not. Look at your leagues actual scores and see. Any given week, I'll bet that about 4 of the top 10 scoring QBs were not started.
Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Not to hijack but you pay $135 dollars for your leagues web service?
BILLY_THE_BULL
Footballguy
Does the fact that nobody responded to what I wrote mean that they feel it is ok to "subtle tank" for playoff positioning but it is not ok to "subtle tank" for a draft pick? In my opinion any and all tanking is wrong but I am not sure how you curb it other then have great owners. My main local league has had the same 12 guys for going on a decade and we have never had any tanking issues of any kind.
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Steel Dillo
Footballguy
Consolation bracket is the non-playoff teams, plus the losers of the first round (wild card week) of the championship bracket. We have an auction, so finishing last doesn't do anything to help you next year.
I know Im bringing up an old thread but we are having a tanking issue in my dynasty league and it's a lot of the same concerns that were mentioned above. I proposed the "PP" idea but one owner was vehemently against it because if a team is basically out of the playoffs, he may think there is no reason to play at all since he has no weight on his draft status since PP will figure that out for him. So then that could screw it up if he becomes stagnant and others are vying for spots around him.
Good point I hadn't thought of.How about a small cash reward for the highest score among eliminated teams? Obviously, you only start this later in the season, week 10-13 or so. The best score among the eliminated teams wins $10 or so. Just enough to make them want to put a good foot forward.In the leagues I used to run, I usually had a small weekly prize for top score, usually $10. You could have this prize open to everyone until there are two guys eliminated from the playoffs....then switch to only those eliminated. You'd be surprised how many times a bad team won this prize. One year, the last place team won it three times. His record was 4-9.
THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA
Footballguy
Thats why i use the POWER RANKS STANDINGS as formula to set my rookie draft for non playoff teams.
Takes your whole teams strenght into account.
Takes your whole teams strenght into account.
Ned
Footballguy
That's funny, because I have 2 leagues that are just like this.Yeah, that sounds good (fluff), but it isn't realistic.can I PM you w/any Misfit and Outlaw openings this offseason?
well said, my friend, well said
