Supporting green energy means you promote slave and child labor (1 Viewer)

[FairWarning]

I do support nuclear energy. We need to find ways to make it safer, and a better solution for the waste, but I’m all for it, 

Of all the things the left has been wrong about over the years, nuclear energy might be the worst. We should be way ahead on the technology right now than we are. 

I live 5 miles from a nuclear plant.  I have never felt threatened in 50 years.  The jobs there pay very well.

 

[sho nuff]

I would hope the administration increases tariffs so we move move solar panel mfg back to United States. 

It hasn’t worked yet…why would more tariffs do it?

https://www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/why-us-solar-tariffs-almost-worked-and-why-they-dont-now

 

[kwille]

I would hope the administration increases tariffs so we move move solar panel mfg back to United States. 

Alternatively, we could subsidize domestic manufacturing as an investment to keep the jobs here. I'd view this as investing in the present with clear future benefits. 

 

[FairWarning]

It hasn’t worked yet…why would more tariffs do it?

https://www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/why-us-solar-tariffs-almost-worked-and-why-they-dont-now

Agree, they never really seem to work.

 

[The Commish]

I would hope the administration increases tariffs so we move move solar panel mfg back to United States. 

Let's say we get the manufacturing back here in the US....where are the raw materials going to come from to make those panels?  Making panels isn't the issue here.  I already pointed out that China is part of the "other" category on where we get the panels from.  The issue here is the mining of the raw materials that are of concern and that concern doesn't go away because we are making the panels here in the US. 

All you're doing with tariffs is jacking up the price and ignoring the issue.  I hardly see how that's helpful in any way.

 

[timschochet]

So you support making of the above items cheaper so we can consume more that translates into more slave and child labor needed.  

This question was not directed to me but actually yes I do. 
Again we have to look at this within the context of what conditions existed for those who perform this child and slave labor prior to the creation of these industries: for the vast majority it was far worse because they had NO livelihood. Many simply died young, or of starvation. 
If we cut these people off, or impose tariffs, we’re consigning them to worse conditions, or death. The only way to better their lives is to continue and actually INCREASE trade with the hope that increased spending power over time creates better conditions. 

 

[FairWarning]

This question was not directed to me but actually yes I do. 
Again we have to look at this within the context of what conditions existed for those who perform this child and slave labor prior to the creation of these industries: for the vast majority it was far worse because they had NO livelihood. Many simply died young, or of starvation. 
If we cut these people off, or impose tariffs, we’re consigning them to worse conditions, or death. The only way to better their lives is to continue and actually INCREASE trade with the hope that increased spending power over time creates better conditions. 

Would you want your 12-YO child working 48 hours/week?

 

[timschochet]

Would you want your 12-YO child working 48 hours/week?

No. I also wouldn’t want her or him starving to death. Given the choice between the two, I’ll take the 48 hours. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Do you own an IPad? A smartphone of any brand? Have you ever owned Nike sneakers? Do you know who makes Ivanka Trump brand clothing?

Are you ready to condemn and vow to never buy any of the above? Or are you willing to support child labor and women's sweatshops?

These are exactly the questions I'm asking myself.   I boycotted Nike for 20+ years.  Along with a whole host of other companies....

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Would you want your 12-YO child working 48 hours/week?

One of my best friends grew up in Bangladesh.  He lived in the States for a long time, but moved back home a few years ago.  I remember having a debate with him about child labor years ago.  His position was simple:  child labor in a place like Bangladesh seems awful to us, but many families in poor countries would be deeply grateful if their kids could find paying jobs to help prevent their family from starving.

I still struggle with that viewpoint, but had to acknowledge that my friend had a better perspective on the issue than I do.

 

[kface]

One of my best friends grew up in Bangladesh.  He lived in the States for a long time, but moved back home a few years ago.  I remember having a debate with him about child labor years ago.  His position was simple:  child labor in a place like Bangladesh seems awful to us, but many families in poor countries would be deeply grateful if their kids could find paying jobs to help prevent their family from starving.

I still struggle with that viewpoint, but had to acknowledge that my friend had a better perspective on the issue than I do.

Two things

1. Child labor is one thing. Locking doors, chaining people up, having no safety standards is all another

2.  Contrary to Tim's thoughts this still starts with us.  It's not an either or situation.  There can be still be standards that we demand for products sold in our country. 

 

[FairWarning]

One of my best friends grew up in Bangladesh.  He lived in the States for a long time, but moved back home a few years ago.  I remember having a debate with him about child labor years ago.  His position was simple:  child labor in a place like Bangladesh seems awful to us, but many families in poor countries would be deeply grateful if their kids could find paying jobs to help prevent their family from starving.

I still struggle with that viewpoint, but had to acknowledge that my friend had a better perspective on the issue than I do.

It’s probably similar to child labor involving the immigrants here in the late 1800’s - which ended up creating unions.  

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Two things

1. Child labor is one thing. Locking doors, chaining people up, having no safety standards is all another

2.  Contrary to Tim's thoughts this still starts with us.  It's not an either or situation.  There can be still be standards that we demand for products sold in our country. 

No disagreement here.

 

[Sweet J]

I live in a nudist colony. 

I've been away for over six months. Are we still tolerating disingenuous threads/responses? I guess so. 

 

[Sweet J]

meh.....these people are "supporting slave labor" as much as people who have a cordless drill in their work bench.  If this is the line we are drawing for "support" then I am willing to bet every single person who's posted in this thread is "supporting slave labor".  That should give us pause and maybe look at the initial argument and evaluate validity OR just add it to the list of things people like to point fingers on and are guilty of themselves.

ETA:  And to be clear....this is NOT an argument one way or the other on green energy, rather on the arbitrary line people draw when they think they have a "gotcha" of sorts only to realize that line makes them complicit as well.

This response should be pinned at the top. 

 

[timschochet]

Two things

1. Child labor is one thing. Locking doors, chaining people up, having no safety standards is all another

2.  Contrary to Tim's thoughts this still starts with us.  It's not an either or situation.  There can be still be standards that we demand for products sold in our country. 

You come up with a solution that wouldn’t make things worse and I’m on board. 

 

[kface]

You come up with a solution that wouldn’t make things worse and I’m on board. 

How about enacting labor standards for products sold in this country?

 

[timschochet]

How about enacting labor standards for products sold in this country?

That would, in my judgment, cause the countries in question to reduce their exports to us. They would not change their practices; instead they would reduce their workforce or shut down their industry and the people working there would starve to death. 
 

 

[kface]

That would, in my judgment, cause the countries in question to reduce their exports to us. They would not change their practices; instead they would reduce their workforce or shut down their industry and the people working there would starve to death. 
 

I disagree.  These are big international companies paying them, not local companies (I understand the big use local contractors to avoid any responsibility).  You're tell me we can't demand nike use a factory that doesn't lock the doors and has no open windows and people literally die at their chair?  Give me a break.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/04/30/extreme-pricing-at-what-cost-retailer-joe-fresh-sends-reps-to-bangladesh-as-death-toll-rises/?sh=7e971f025b83

I think it would be very easy to implement.  Harder to enforce.  But you might get positive outcomes just based on the scared straight principle.

 

[Dickies]

How about enacting labor standards for products sold in this country?

Or at least make the labor practices used in the products we buy more transparent.  I honestly assume most of what I buy is produced using labor practices that are substandard, but I would be willing to pay a premium to support companies that treat their production workers better.

 

[Stealthycat]

Does the the end result (saving the planet) justify the exploitation of humans?

heck yes

Of the estimated 52 billion masks manufactured globally in 2020, it's believed 1.56 billion will enter our oceans this year, resulting in an additional 4,680 to 6,240 metric tonnes of marine plastic pollution

Solar panels are composed of photovoltaic (PV) cells that convert sunlight to electricity. When these panels enter landfills, valuable resources go to waste. And because solar panels contain toxic materials like lead that can leach out as they break down, landfilling also creates new environmental hazards.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

So you support making of the above items cheaper so we can consume more that translates into more slave and child labor needed.  

I get that it seems impossibly out in the future to suggests this, but as China's economy grows the increases in wealth and how those are shared will make slave and child labor more and more expensive.  I think this happens if China keeps the wealth in the hands of a few and eventually faces constant uprisings that wash away the veneer of  that 80+% government approval rating.  I think that also happens if China generously spreads the wealth, just a different mechanism.   Sure this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but I think child and slave labor eventually become prohibitively expensive.  That of course doesn't mean we shouldn't hasten the process where we can.  Nor does it mean we don't care about what is happening today.

This is opinion, take it for what it is worth.

 

[kface]

I get that it seems impossibly out in the future to suggests this, but as China's economy grows the increases in wealth and how those are shared will make slave and child labor more and more expensive.  I think this happens if China keeps the wealth in the hands of a few and eventually faces constant uprisings that wash away the veneer of  that 80+% government approval rating.  I think that also happens if China generously spreads the wealth, just a different mechanism.   Sure this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but I think child and slave labor eventually become prohibitively expensive.  That of course doesn't mean we shouldn't hasten the process where we can.  Nor does it mean we don't care about what is happening today.

This is opinion, take it for what it is worth.

The contrast to that opinion is that as world we have enjoyed a period of being free from child and slave labour for what....maybe 80 years in most first world countries.  That is such a small window considering some form of economy has been humming along for 100s of years.  Think of kings and serfs etc...

So there is also a strong argument to be made that with decreasing labor standards, the elimination of unions, stagnant wages and the consolidation of wealth that we are moving back towards a world where everyone is here to serve the rich few and they control all the mechanisms that make their wealth grow.  

I was reading this article the other day.  There have been a number on the USA as well as corporate takeover of real estate has become a booming industry

https://www.dw.com/en/house-prices-wall-of-money-hits-european-real-estate/a-57765308

It got me thinking that we are heading towards a world where the common person doesn't own anything.  

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

The contrast to that opinion is that as world we have enjoyed a period of being free from child and slave labour for what....maybe 80 years in most first world countries.  That is such a small window considering some form of economy has been humming along for 100s of years.  Think of kings and serfs etc...

I prefer to be an optimist that we are "progressing" into a better world rather than stuck in endless repeating cycles. Sure there are such cycles but we don't begin and end in the same places.   But then again I do listen to Pink Floyd at times.

As for kings and serfs, if only Marx would have stopped writing once this was penned...

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles… Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstruction of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes....

I don't think this is too controversial.  Societies rise and fall based on the ability of the have's to keep the have not's from taken what they want.  Sometimes this is done with fences and weaponry other times it is done by providing for the masses.  Usually of course it is a mix of the two as some form of cost-benefit balancing act.    The US and first world countries have largely avoided this conflict by how it ( the US at least) shared the opportunities and then when that became less effective how it spread the wealth (social safety net programs).  But then the "job provider class" re-exerted itself a little over forty years ago and we prioritized guns over bread and we have fallen into-

So there is also a strong argument to be made that with decreasing labor standards, the elimination of unions, stagnant wages and the consolidation of wealth that we are moving back towards a world where everyone is here to serve the rich few and they control all the mechanisms that make their wealth grow.

But I hope to believe that the new generation of "robber barons" are more likely to "buy off the revolution" then to try to protect their unimaginable wealth with higher fences and bigger security forces.  And I hope to believe that this solution is eventually forced upon the Chinese government.  Not because they are all that benevolent but because the alternatives are ultimately too expensive.

 

[kface]

I prefer to be an optimist that we are "progressing" into a better world rather than stuck in endless repeating cycles. Sure there are such cycles but we don't begin and end in the same places.   But then again I do listen to Pink Floyd at times.

As for kings and serfs, if only Marx would have stopped writing once this was penned...

I don't think this is too controversial.  Societies rise and fall based on the ability of the have's to keep the have not's from taken what they want.  Sometimes this is done with fences and weaponry other times it is done by providing for the masses.  Usually of course it is a mix of the two as some form of cost-benefit balancing act.    The US and first world countries have largely avoided this conflict by how it ( the US at least) shared the opportunities and then when that became less effective how it spread the wealth (social safety net programs).  But then the "job provider class" re-exerted itself a little over forty years ago and we prioritized guns over bread and we have fallen into-

But I hope to believe that the new generation of "robber barons" are more likely to "buy off the revolution" then to try to protect their unimaginable wealth with higher fences and bigger security forces.  And I hope to believe that this solution is eventually forced upon the Chinese government.  Not because they are all that benevolent but because the alternatives are ultimately too expensive.

I like it.  Perfect response

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I like it.  Perfect response

 

By the way.  That guns and fences versus bread and butter is pretty much how I see the "defund the police" argument.  We have gotten out of balance with our limited resources by militarizing the police and profiting from incarcerating people versus providing them opportunities and for their needs.  The problem with the "defund the police" as a label is it doesn't suggest trying to find a new balance but to go out of balance the opposite way.   

I think our right wing friends like to point out Marxist backgrounds in the groups advocating "defund the police".  I don't know (or care) how much this is true, but I think there are certainly aspects of Marx's thoughts in this idea.  Or the Bolshevik slogan "Peace, Land and Bread".   But as the crazy liberal quoting Marx and Bolsheviks I think that I am really advocating for balance.  To re-center our efforts.

ETA:  I'll keep this here, but I lost track of which thread I was in.

 

[Terminalxylem]

These are exactly the questions I'm asking myself.   I boycotted Nike for 20+ years.  Along with a whole host of other companies....

How do you decide who to boycott? If you look hard enough, it seems every big company has skeletons in their closet.

 

[kface]

How do you decide who to boycott? If you look hard enough, it seems every big company has skeletons in their closet.

Move away from big companies though. There are 1000s of american companies that employ our neighbors that make great products.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

Move away from big companies though. There are 1000s of american companies that employ our neighbors that make great products.  

As a general rule, it makes sense to choose the little guy. But big businesses keep swallowing them up, and the pandemic ain’t helping matters.

Another strategy is minimizing consumption, though that’s downright unamerican.

 

[BladeRunner]

Move away from big companies though. There are 1000s of american companies that employ our neighbors that make great products.  

Those big companies ALSO employ your neighbors - or maybe even you. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

How do you decide who to boycott? If you look hard enough, it seems every big company has skeletons in their closet.

I focus on boycotting market leaders who have the power to drive change (but are failing to do so).  It’s a long story.   It was a bigger part of my life years ago.

 

[zoonation]

Why?  I offer links from your beloved msm that shows the vast majority of solar panels mfg in China uses force/slave labor and raw materials in electric cars batteries use child labor. Care to counter or just use the dismiss button? 

The fact that China uses slave labour doesn’t support your premise.  I can’t believe I had to type that. 

 

[Opie]

This is what I'm talking about.

How many references were made to the "END OF THE WORLD" when it comes to failing to adopt green technology.
Either do it...OR DIE!!

You people really have to stop banking your existence on those doomsday prophets....they have been wrong EVERY DAMN TIME!

I know that they only have to be right, once...but come on....this has gotten stupid.

 

[stlrams]

The fact that China uses slave labour doesn’t support your premise.  I can’t believe I had to type that. 

Does China use slave or force labor to manufacture solar panels?