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Systemic Racism And The Real Problem Behind Policing -- A Reckoning Or Were We Just Fine? (1 Viewer)

I was thinking a bit about the +/-s of those points today at work.  

1.  This was right in the first reply from @glvsav37 - I think anything more than marijuana is an extremely hard sell for a lot of people, so I am not sure how this one would get done.  I was going to start a thread about our most extreme political positions, and I think is mine, so I don't have a big issue with it.   IMO this one this addressing a ton of things that effect poor communities and especially black communities - most of the jail time, more fathers around, way less police interactions on a daily basis, etc.   

2.  I want to read more about this one, but I like that it's addressing function of school that doesn't require a huge overhaul and influx of money.  This is the one I am least sure about, which is why I picked up the book about reading he suggested.   I do like that something to do with education is talked about though.  

3.  I agree 100%, BUT - this is coming at a time when we are seeing a lot of these additional jobs going the way of automation.  I still think the premise is correct though and we need to be more realistic about 4 years schools.  

 
It confuses me how Asians, and other immigrants from places such as Africa, are able to enjoy success in our system, and yet this notion of "systemic racism" continues to be given credence as if sacrosanct. 

I wonder, do we presume that we are helping people by pretending its the world that is the problem?  :oldunsure:

 
Interesting. I think harris is behind a paywall now so I have not listened to him in a while. But when I did, he was def an alternative voice that I respected.

I'm in favor of all 3 to some degree. 

2. IDK what program is in place now vs Phonics, or when it changed. But along with that we need to make education as whole "Cool." And thats a culture thing. Many in black culture look down on learning or at those who aspire to be educated. Its a mindset change that needs to happen. We should be investing heavy in inner city schools, cleaning them up, modernizing them. Keep them open at night and on weekends so students have a place to go safely and get off the streets. 

I believe that a lot of the issues in professional diversity that we are discussing today are bc minority students just were not introduced to these career options at an early age.  I use the example of my friends kid who wants to be a pilot. His parents are middle class, Caucasian and have disposable income, so he can get flying lessons that are not offered in school and cost $$. He has a leg up already on anyone in the innner city. But instead where companies are looking to hire them over my friends kid b/c of "Diversity" we should instead be looking to bring those programs to more minority schools. Strip out the BS classes like Trigonometry and Chemistry and let these kids tailor thier course track. Maybe they spend a semester shadowing a local aerospace college, or at a functioning airport? Exposure is the path to learning. 
 
Most is behind a paywall, correct.

As far as the reading, my initial understanding was the shift has been away from phonics, and more to sight words and recognizing words.    I think both of my kids had a focus on sight words.    Anyway, during the talk it was less about the culture aspect and more that kids who aren't around books at home for whatever reason have a harder time with the newer method vs. being taught phonics.   

 
It confuses me how Asians, and other immigrants from places such as Africa, are able to enjoy success in our system, and yet this notion of "systemic racism" continues to be given credence as if sacrosanct. 

I wonder, do we presume that we are helping people by pretending its the world that is the problem?  :oldunsure:
It's been discussed a lot as to why an immigrant population might succeed vs. people who grew up here in poverty and other conditions.   

 
It confuses me how Asians, and other immigrants from places such as Africa, are able to enjoy success in our system, and yet this notion of "systemic racism" continues to be given credence as if sacrosanct. 

I wonder, do we presume that we are helping people by pretending its the world that is the problem?  :oldunsure:
The short of it is(and this has been discussed at length so hit the search button or google for great studies) that typically the people who immigrate are the best from their countries(meaning they are usually better educated, etc) and also highly motivated( as shown by them making the leap in the first place).  This gives them advantages.   Children of Immigrants from almost all countries in fact have higher upward mobility rates than all americans. 

 
The short of it is(and this has been discussed at length so hit the search button or google for great studies) that typically the people who immigrate are the best from their countries(meaning they are usually better educated, etc) and also highly motivated( as shown by them making the leap in the first place).  This gives them advantages.   Children of Immigrants from almost all countries in fact have higher upward mobility rates than all americans. 
I think this is all true, but it is of course only part of the fact pattern.

The immigrants also come here without being inundated 24/7 with messaging that they are repressed and systemic racism will hold them back.  From the stories I’ve read they dont see racism (yes stories, not quantitative polling).

The fact that these minorities can not only succeed, but have higher upward mobility rates in many cases than white people is evidence that whatever racism the system has not only doesn’t keep them down but actually allows them to enjoy more success than the aversge American.  That is powerful.

Its not just an “oh they’re already educated” or “come here with higher incomes” things.  Asian Americans in NYC have on average less income than than black and Hispanics in NYC, they’re not going to the $50k/yr private schools yet their children score higher than all races in school testing.  Hard work, studying.

So there are are reasons to say immigrants are not the same as “natives”.  But it would be myopic to think there is not a lot of evidence in their outcomes to support it’s not “racism” that prevents success in America.

 
I think this is all true, but it is of course only part of the fact pattern.

The immigrants also come here without being inundated 24/7 with messaging that they are repressed and systemic racism will hold them back.  From the stories I’ve read they dont see racism (yes stories, not quantitative polling).

The fact that these minorities can not only succeed, but have higher upward mobility rates in many cases than white people is evidence that whatever racism the system has not only doesn’t keep them down but actually allows them to enjoy more success than the aversge American.  That is powerful.

Its not just an “oh they’re already educated” or “come here with higher incomes” things.  Asian Americans in NYC have on average less income than than black and Hispanics in NYC, they’re not going to the $50k/yr private schools yet their children score higher than all races in school testing.  Hard work, studying.

So there are are reasons to say immigrants are not the same as “natives”.  But it would be myopic to think there is not a lot of evidence in their outcomes to support it’s not “racism” that prevents success in America.
What is the evidence then?  
 

They are skipping that whole systemic part that has impacted their family for generations.  That’s the huge impact and discouraging weight and that over generations part is key as over time it gets worse.  I think i read a stat that half of the immigrants that come have college degrees. And we have seen studies that show that having a parent that is educated leads to better upward mobility for children.  These are people that are already succeeding in their home countries.  Versus kids who everyone they know and who is in their family going back 100s of years have had nothing and little hope in life even while trying their best.
 

These folks are more comparable to those exceptions who despite barriers do have upward mobility.  but I’m not seeing how immigrant success proves racism isn’t a problem that prevents success.  
 

I’ll also add that just because they have success does not mean they aren’t subject to systemic barriers still once here.  It’s just that they have more tools to prevail like i did for example.

 
What is the evidence then?  
 

They are skipping that whole systemic part that has impacted their family for generations.  That’s the huge impact and discouraging weight and that over generations part is key as over time it gets worse.  I think i read a stat that half of the immigrants that come have college degrees. And we have seen studies that show that having a parent that is educated leads to better upward mobility for children.  These are people that are already succeeding in their home countries.  Versus kids who everyone they know and who is in their family going back 100s of years have had nothing and little hope in life even while trying their best.
 

These folks are more comparable to those exceptions who despite barriers do have upward mobility.  but I’m not seeing how immigrant success proves racism isn’t a problem that prevents success.  
 

I’ll also add that just because they have success does not mean they aren’t subject to systemic barriers still once here.  It’s just that they have more tools to prevail like i did for example.
The evidence is the outcomes.  What the variables are that drive those outcomes is where the subjectivity is.  There are different variables and you and I for sure perceive different weights to them.  

When there is a hypothesis and then I see evidence of success across large populations that contradict that hypothesis…you can either look solely for reasons to dispel why it is happening or consider that there is data that at least in part calls into question the absolute basis of the hypothesis.

We’ve had this conversation before no need to re-hash again…I don’t say that in a bad way just that there’s literally no need to spend time typing the same words again with the same conclusions.

 
I think this is all true, but it is of course only part of the fact pattern.

The immigrants also come here without being inundated 24/7 with messaging that they are repressed and systemic racism will hold them back.  From the stories I’ve read they dont see racism (yes stories, not quantitative polling).

The fact that these minorities can not only succeed, but have higher upward mobility rates in many cases than white people is evidence that whatever racism the system has not only doesn’t keep them down but actually allows them to enjoy more success than the aversge American.  That is powerful.

Its not just an “oh they’re already educated” or “come here with higher incomes” things.  Asian Americans in NYC have on average less income than than black and Hispanics in NYC, they’re not going to the $50k/yr private schools yet their children score higher than all races in school testing.  Hard work, studying.

So there are are reasons to say immigrants are not the same as “natives”.  But it would be myopic to think there is not a lot of evidence in their outcomes to support it’s not “racism” that prevents success in America.
I have a few thoughts about your post:

  • you seemed to place a lot of blame on the media.  I 100% agree that is an issue now, but was that messaging there as much decades ago when these groups started moving to the country more?  
  • piggybacking on that idea, is we have to keep in mind that our parents and grandparents went through this stuff.  It's not some far off colonial concept that we've had 100s of years to heal from.  What I am getting at is we don't need the media - stories of their repression and exclusion from the country were passed on by their families and neighbors.  IMO people underestimate the psychological toll that took on a community and some immigrant communities we point to passed over that history and largely came here after we got to a point were we started giving black people more rights.  
  • I agree that certain groups, we can say it - Asian, are culturally different - more family oriented, more submissive, etc..    But missing from your point about the hard work and studying (I agree on that point) is that in those households there is a way higher starting education level.   Two sets of parents can instill as much hard working ethic as possible on a kid - but if one set of parents can't read past an elementary level, don't read themselves so don't have books around the house, live by worse schools, etc...   I think you understand where I am going.
  • It's been pointed out before that when immigrants come here, they probably aren't going to plop down in the worst neighborhood in Chicago, and not surprisingly carve out little communities on their own.   So again, even if they have the same income or even less - it's possible they avoid the worst of the worst areas that were already gutted from the previous decades.  


All that said, my overall point as usual is that it's a factor of a ton of things.  I don't think that it's 100% RACISM!, and I don't think differences in these groups and hard work explain everything either.   But often in these topics it feels like we are choosing one or the other of these factors.  

 
Also, a common theme in these discussions and a major thing that is pointed to when talking about income and success is ownership.   I am curious - what are the stats around home and business ownership in these immigrant communities vs. AA communities?      Even in our neck of the woods in my small town - we have Latin run businesses and restaurants, Asian as well.  I can't think of a black owned business.  IMO, that is an important factor that should be looked into more for the discussion. 

 
I have a few thoughts about your post:

  • you seemed to place a lot of blame on the media.  I 100% agree that is an issue now, but was that messaging there as much decades ago when these groups started moving to the country more?  
  • piggybacking on that idea, is we have to keep in mind that our parents and grandparents went through this stuff.  It's not some far off colonial concept that we've had 100s of years to heal from.  What I am getting at is we don't need the media - stories of their repression and exclusion from the country were passed on by their families and neighbors.  IMO people underestimate the psychological toll that took on a community and some immigrant communities we point to passed over that history and largely came here after we got to a point were we started giving black people more rights.  
  • I agree that certain groups, we can say it - Asian, are culturally different - more family oriented, more submissive, etc..    But missing from your point about the hard work and studying (I agree on that point) is that in those households there is a way higher starting education level.   Two sets of parents can instill as much hard working ethic as possible on a kid - but if one set of parents can't read past an elementary level, don't read themselves so don't have books around the house, live by worse schools, etc...   I think you understand where I am going.
  • It's been pointed out before that when immigrants come here, they probably aren't going to plop down in the worst neighborhood in Chicago, and not surprisingly carve out little communities on their own.   So again, even if they have the same income or even less - it's possible they avoid the worst of the worst areas that were already gutted from the previous decades.  


All that said, my overall point as usual is that it's a factor of a ton of things.  I don't think that it's 100% RACISM!, and I don't think differences in these groups and hard work explain everything either.   But often in these topics it feels like we are choosing one or the other of these factors.  
Why are you assuming that the Asian population in NYC that has on average less income than the black population is better educated or even speaks English?

Overall though I agree with the direction of your post 100%, gonna observe the conversation lol

in our neck of the woods in my small town - we have Latin run businesses and restaurants, Asian as well.  I can't think of a black owned business.  IMO, that is an important factor that should be looked into more for the discussion. 
Agree and it is sort of chicken and the egg.  Is the fact that they own businesses making them more successful or the fact that they own businesses evidence of the ability to succeed.  Did all these Latin families pour over the border with cash and restaurants strapped to their backs?

 
Also, it's not an either-or proposition.  At least for me personally, I think it's very hard to dispute that 1) systemic racism exists and 2) cultural differences among population groups exist.  These are both causal factors that can partially explain population-level differences in educational attainment, labor market outcomes, and so on. 

IMO, too many people approach this issue as if it has to be 100% about systemic racism or 100% about culture, but there's no reason to commit ourselves to a 100-0 or 0-100 set of weights.  If you think of it instead as being an argument about whether it's 50-50 or 70-30 or whatever, it becomes easier to disinvest yourself from having to ignore a significant part of the puzzle.

 
Why are you assuming that the Asian population in NYC that has on average less income than the black population is better educated or even speaks English?

Overall though I agree with the direction of your post 100%, gonna observe the conversation lol

Agree and it is sort of chicken and the egg.  Is the fact that they own businesses making them more successful or the fact that they own businesses evidence of the ability to succeed.  Did all these Latin families pour over the border with cash and restaurants strapped to their backs?
Honestly - I don't know.  I think I blended the stats of immigrants from Asia/Africa having a higher starting education and income with your point above of Asian Americans having less average income in NYC.   That would be something that would be interesting to dig into farther.  

 
Also, it's not an either-or proposition.  At least for me personally, I think it's very hard to dispute that 1) systemic racism exists and 2) cultural differences among population groups exist.  These are both causal factors that can partially explain population-level differences in educational attainment, labor market outcomes, and so on. 

IMO, too many people approach this issue as if it has to be 100% about systemic racism or 100% about culture, but there's no reason to commit ourselves to a 100-0 or 0-100 set of weights.  If you think of it instead as being an argument about whether it's 50-50 or 70-30 or whatever, it becomes easier to disinvest yourself from having to ignore a significant part of the puzzle.
Exactly, and this was what I was trying to drive at with that first post to djmich.   

Despite thinking it's probably closer to 70-30 or 60-40, I also realize that I am usually debating with people who think there is very little or no systemic issues, so the optics is probably that I think it's all systemic as I argue with them.    

 
The short of it is(and this has been discussed at length so hit the search button or google for great studies) that typically the people who immigrate are the best from their countries(meaning they are usually better educated, etc) and also highly motivated( as shown by them making the leap in the first place).  This gives them advantages.   Children of Immigrants from almost all countries in fact have higher upward mobility rates than all americans. 


I agree that motivation is the key and difference.   A couple guys I work with came from India.  One is a good friend of mine who said he had a thousand dollars when he came here. Stayed with friends a couple months and said he took a fast food job the second day he was and worked at a car wash his days off, and did anything to make $$$.  On top of that he had to retake some classes to get his degree here and paid his own tuition.

This was 18 years ago and now he has a good job, married, has 2 kids and a very nice home.

 
Also, it's not an either-or proposition.  At least for me personally, I think it's very hard to dispute that 1) systemic racism exists and 2) cultural differences among population groups exist.  These are both causal factors that can partially explain population-level differences in educational attainment, labor market outcomes, and so on. 

IMO, too many people approach this issue as if it has to be 100% about systemic racism or 100% about culture, but there's no reason to commit ourselves to a 100-0 or 0-100 set of weights.  If you think of it instead as being an argument about whether it's 50-50 or 70-30 or whatever, it becomes easier to disinvest yourself from having to ignore a significant part of the puzzle.
Yeppers.  And how about this, the percentage actually changes over time too!

The hardest part in analysis of this is separating income/class and race.  Imo, the former is by far the bigger input into outcomes.  But of course there is also a dirty history of slavery and racism that has driven a lot of overlap within low income and black populations.

 
Yeppers.  And how about this, the percentage actually changes over time too!

The hardest part in analysis of this is separating income/class and race.  Imo, the former is by far the bigger input into outcomes.  But of course there is also a dirty history of slavery and racism that has driven a lot of overlap within low income and black populations.
Yep, this is a great point and I think one that bogs down a lot of the conversation.   Yes - 100 years ago it was probably 100/0 or 90/10 systemic.     Now we have made a lot of improvements and it's not that, but IMO people argue too much that it's 0/100 or 10/90 the other way I don't think it's nearly that and it's realistically closer to the middle or slightly off.  

 
The evidence is the outcomes.  What the variables are that drive those outcomes is where the subjectivity is.  There are different variables and you and I for sure perceive different weights to them.  

When there is a hypothesis and then I see evidence of success across large populations that contradict that hypothesis…you can either look solely for reasons to dispel why it is happening or consider that there is data that at least in part calls into question the absolute basis of the hypothesis.

We’ve had this conversation before no need to re-hash again…I don’t say that in a bad way just that there’s literally no need to spend time typing the same words again with the same conclusions.
If we just look at outcomes we aren’t comparing apples to apples.  That’s really my point.  The key to all of this that you and i and i think everyone in this thread wants to know is what is the key to success and upward mobility.  My point is that one them we can all agree is education.  Another is motivation.  And if immigrants are largely coming with those things they have a leg up on folks that have lived in poverty for generations.  So maybe we look at how we get our populations with poor upward mobility those things to mirror that success.

and yea all good i know we have discussed before.  It’s always good to have this friendly discourse though. 

 
Yeppers.  And how about this, the percentage actually changes over time too!

The hardest part in analysis of this is separating income/class and race.  Imo, the former is by far the bigger input into outcomes.  But of course there is also a dirty history of slavery and racism that has driven a lot of overlap within low income and black populations.
this is the challenge because i think poverty and outcomes are linked.  So when certain races have more poverty it’s very hard to discern is it income and class? is it race?  Something else?  is it a mixture of all of these things?  And i think each has barriers associated with them.  None of which make it impossible to be successful, but they do make it harder and the overall statistics reflect this. 

 
Also, it's not an either-or proposition.  At least for me personally, I think it's very hard to dispute that 1) systemic racism exists and 2) cultural differences among population groups exist.  These are both causal factors that can partially explain population-level differences in educational attainment, labor market outcomes, and so on. 

IMO, too many people approach this issue as if it has to be 100% about systemic racism or 100% about culture, but there's no reason to commit ourselves to a 100-0 or 0-100 set of weights.  If you think of it instead as being an argument about whether it's 50-50 or 70-30 or whatever, it becomes easier to disinvest yourself from having to ignore a significant part of the puzzle.
If you settle on anything other than 100 percent racism then there are expectations for black people to behave differently. 

Thats pretty frowned upon to discuss. 

 
I think this is all true, but it is of course only part of the fact pattern.

The immigrants also come here without being inundated 24/7 with messaging that they are repressed and systemic racism will hold them back.  From the stories I’ve read they dont see racism (yes stories, not quantitative polling).

The fact that these minorities can not only succeed, but have higher upward mobility rates in many cases than white people is evidence that whatever racism the system has not only doesn’t keep them down but actually allows them to enjoy more success than the aversge American.  That is powerful.

Its not just an “oh they’re already educated” or “come here with higher incomes” things.  Asian Americans in NYC have on average less income than than black and Hispanics in NYC, they’re not going to the $50k/yr private schools yet their children score higher than all races in school testing.  Hard work, studying.

So there are are reasons to say immigrants are not the same as “natives”.  But it would be myopic to think there is not a lot of evidence in their outcomes to support it’s not “racism” that prevents success in America.
Your argument seems to come down to: it’s not the systemic racism, it’s the media telling everyone there is systemic racism. The implication being that if the media didn’t tell us about all this, we wouldn’t think about it. Actually that’s probably true. Most of us who aren’t black wouldn’t think about it if the media didn’t report it. Black people, though, would think about it; they don’t need the media to tell them about racism. 
 

You and so many others are so eager to blame the media, as if they are the source of the problem. All they are is the messenger. 

 
I don't think we in here have an issue talking about this.  I think para was getting that in general or on SM there are people who would feel that way.  We probably could find some examples of people saying white people shouldn't be talking about it at all.  

 
I don't think we in here have an issue talking about this.  I think para was getting that in general or on SM there are people who would feel that way.  We probably could find some examples of people saying white people shouldn't be talking about it at all.  
ah ok. 
 

I must have read it wrong.  I thought Para was basically saying that the issue is that black people need to behave differently(hinting that maybe black people who are say poor are poor because they dont behave correctly) or that we blame racism and dont take responsibility for our successes/failures and just blame racism as 100% of the cause. 

 
What is the evidence then?  
 

They are skipping that whole systemic part that has impacted their family for generations.  That’s the huge impact and discouraging weight and that over generations part is key as over time it gets worse.  I think i read a stat that half of the immigrants that come have college degrees. And we have seen studies that show that having a parent that is educated leads to better upward mobility for children.  These are people that are already succeeding in their home countries.  Versus kids who everyone they know and who is in their family going back 100s of years have had nothing and little hope in life even while trying their best.
 

These folks are more comparable to those exceptions who despite barriers do have upward mobility.  but I’m not seeing how immigrant success proves racism isn’t a problem that prevents success.  
 

I’ll also add that just because they have success does not mean they aren’t subject to systemic barriers still once here.  It’s just that they have more tools to prevail like i did for example.
Do you think that illegal border crossers from Mexico are succeeding here?  I honestly don’t know if they have it worse or better.  

 
Do you think that illegal border crossers from Mexico are succeeding here?  I honestly don’t know if they have it worse or better.  
Good question.  No idea.  I would guess they do have upward mobility and likely do better than they do in Mexico since so many know to come here and then send money back.  But I’ll have to take a look.  I’m curious now.  Not sure if they differentiate illegal vs legal immigrants.  I would guess legal has better success.  

 
Good question.  No idea.  I would guess they do have upward mobility and likely do better than they do in Mexico since so many know to come here and then send money back.  But I’ll have to take a look.  I’m curious now.  Not sure if they differentiate illegal vs legal immigrants.  I would guess legal has better success.  
My business owners from India, Pakistan, etc despise the illegals because they did it the right way.  I would think the undocumented are not included - they don’t want to be tracked until they can get a path to citizenship  or become legal to work I imagine.  I agree that the legal ones had more money to go thru the process, more likely to succeed also. 

 
My business owners from India, Pakistan, etc despise the illegals because they did it the right way.  I would think the undocumented are not included - they don’t want to be tracked until they can get a path to citizenship  or become legal to work I imagine.  I agree that the legal ones had more money to go thru the process, more likely to succeed also. 
I fully understand that POV.  On the flip side, we also have to keep in mind people from those countries didn't have a choice.  Would their thoughts and actions be different if it was India and Pakistan at our border and they had different "options"?  

 
Do you think that illegal border crossers from Mexico are succeeding here?  I honestly don’t know if they have it worse or better.  
Like Pinky said, I think they have to be overall or else they wouldn't make all the sacrifices to get here.   It has to be better than where they come from for the most part.   Their upside is capped for obvious reasons, but $ and quality of life as a whole is better even on the lower rungs here.  

Small sample size, but what I have witnessed at our store is banding together to help each other succeed.   A couple years ago I think we had maybe 3 Latino workers at our store.  Now we have a core of 10-12, and most are friends/family of a couple of them that we hired on.   It's been interesting to see and eye opening talking to the couple who speak English about their POV and backgrounds.  

 
I fully understand that POV.  On the flip side, we also have to keep in mind people from those countries didn't have a choice.  Would their thoughts and actions be different if it was India and Pakistan at our border and they had different "options"?  
I think anyone would see that POV if faced with the choice of coming to the US when they have nothing.  One of my biggest beefs was people having to close (and lose) their businesses, social distancing, mandatory mask wearing and vax - but we leave a border basically unsecured in a global pandemic. 

 
I think anyone would see that POV if faced with the choice of coming to the US when they have nothing.  One of my biggest beefs was people having to close (and lose) their businesses, social distancing, mandatory mask wearing and vax - but we leave a border basically unsecured in a global pandemic. 
I disagree with you on how "unsecured" the border is and why.   

I think we can at least agree that it was dumb to not have the same covid protocols and testing in place at those stations during the past couple years if we were going to turn back some of those policies. 

 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/...ingSource=articleShare&smid=nytcore-ios-share

America's reality in a nutshell

Home Appraised With a Black Owner: $472,000. With a White Owner: $750,000.​

Last summer, Nathan Connolly and his wife, Shani Mott, welcomed an appraiser into their house in Baltimore, hoping to take advantage of historically low interest rates and refinance their mortgage.
They believed that their house — improved with a new $5,000 tankless water heater and $35,000 in other renovations — was worth much more than the $450,000 that they paid for it in 2017. Home prices have been on the rise nationwide since the pandemic; in Baltimore, they have gone up 42 percent in the past five years, according to Zillow.com.
But 20/20 Valuations, a Maryland appraisal company, put the home’s value at $472,000, and in turn, loanDepot, a mortgage lender, denied the couple a refinance loan.

Dr. Connolly said he knew why: He, his wife and three children, aged 15, 12 and 9, are Black. A professor of history at Johns Hopkins University, Dr. Connolly is an expert on redlining and the legacy of white supremacy in American cities, and much of his research focuses on the role of race in the housing market.

Months after that first appraisal, the couple applied for another refinance loan, removed family photos and had a white male colleague — another Johns Hopkins professor — stand in for them. The second appraiser valued the house at $750,000.
This week, Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott sued loanDepot, which is based in Foothill Ranch, Calif., as well as 20/20 Valuations and Shane Lanham, the owner of 20/20 Valuations. Mr. Lanham is the appraiser who conducted the first appraisal.
“We were clearly aware of appraisal discrimination,” said Dr. Connolly, 44. “But to be told in so many words that our presence and the life we’ve built in our home brings the property value down? It’s an absolute gut punch.”
The home appraisal industry, which relies partly on subjective opinions to translate home values into dollars and cents, has faced a firestorm of criticism over the past two years.

More than 97 percent of home appraisers are white, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and since the summer of 2020, when conversations on race and discrimination in America rose to the forefront following the murder of George Floyd, dozens of Black homeowners have alleged discrimination in the home valuations they received. Some have filed lawsuits, and the Biden administration in March announced a set of planned reforms to overhaul the appraisal industry and dismantle systemic bias.

Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott live in the North Baltimore neighborhood of Homeland, known for its strong public schools and colonial architecture, which has earned it a place on the National Register of Historic Places. A majority of their neighbors are white. According to their complaint, which was filed in Maryland District Court on Monday, the couple applied to refinance their mortgage with loanDepot in May 2021. The lender approved a loan at a rate of 2.25 percent and, according to the complaint, told the couple that their home was likely now worth $550,000 or more.
To conduct the appraisal, loanDepot hired 20/20 Valuations as a subcontractor.
Mr. Lanham conducted the inspection himself on June 14, 2021. According to the complaint, Dr. Connolly, Dr. Mott and their three children were home during the visit, and their house was also filled with family photos, children’s drawings of figures with dark skin, a poster for the film “Black Panther” and literature by Black authors (Dr. Mott lectures on literature and Africana studies).
“It would have been obvious to anyone visiting that the home belonged to a Black family,” the complaint reads. The appraisal came back just $22,000 more than they had paid, and loanDepot based its rejection of the couple’s application on the low number.
The couple criticized the way Mr. Lanham came up with his appraisal. Home appraisers frequently rely upon the sales comparison approach, in which they weigh real estate against the sale prices of similar nearby homes to determine value.
In Mr. Lanham’s appraisal, he selected three homes with values ranging from $435,000 to $545,000 (a fourth comparable, which sold for $650,000, was ultimately not used in his valuation).
The first home used, the complaint argues, would be considered a “fixer-upper,” which the home of Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott is not.


The second is outside the boundaries of the Homeland neighborhood, amid a majority-Black census block of homes.

In the third, he deducted $50,000 from the comparison amount because Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott’s home faces a busy street — a deduction, the complaint says, that “is excessive and is inconsistent with proper appraisal practices.” Another $20,000 was deducted for the quality of construction.
All of the selected comparable homes, the complaint says, were of lower quality than Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott’s home, and the appraisal incorrectly stated that their home had not received any updates for 15 years.
According to the complaint, Mr. Lanham “cherry-picked low value homes as comps,” and by doing so, he “ignored legitimately comparable homes with much higher sales prices.”
When reached by phone on Tuesday, Mr. Lanham declined to comment.
Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott wrote a letter to Christian Jorgensen, a lending officer at loanDepot who had been their main point of contact up to that point, challenging the appraisal. According to the complaint, the loan officer then stopped responding to their calls.
Mr. Jorgensen did not respond to requests for comment.
Several months later, the couple applied for a new loan with Swift Home Loans, which partnered with Rocket Mortgage. This time they underwent a “whitewashing experiment,” removing indications of Blackness from their home and replacing them with signifiers that a white family might live there instead. They cleared their bookshelves of works by Black authors. They asked white friends to share family photos and placed those in picture frames around the house; on their walls, they hung art bought at Ikea that showed white people.
An American flag that was presented to Dr. Mott 10 years ago after the death of her father, a Vietnam War veteran, was removed from storage, framed and placed on the mantel.

“We had to have a conversation with our kids about why we’re pulling down all their drawings,” Dr. Connolly said. “It’s very humiliating to strip yourself of your own home.”

On the day of the second appraisal, they left their home and had the white colleague answer the door. The second appraiser provided the $750,000 estimate.
The homes pulled by the second appraiser were of significantly higher value than those selected by Mr. Lanham, selling from $749,000 to $785,000. And while Lanham docked $50,000, or 10 percent, from the comparable homes that were not on a busy road, the second appraiser deducted $15,000, or 2 percent. The complaint says that the 2 percent adjustment is consistent with industry standards.
Race has long played a role in housing policy in the United States, and Black Americans are denied mortgages at disproportionate rates. The impact of redlining, a racist Depression-era housing policy, continues to drive down home values in Black neighborhoods and deprive resources for communities of color.
But Dr. Mott and Dr. Connolly do not live in a Black neighborhood. The disparity in their two appraisals echoes a lawsuit brought by Tenisha Tate-Austin and Paul Austin, a Black couple in California’s Bay Area who have accused an appraiser of lowballing their home’s value by $500,000. That case, said Mr. Austin, is scheduled for mediation — a chance to resolve the matter before heading to court — in September.
“We’re looking to hold people accountable,” Mr. Austin said.
The Department of Justice made the unusual move in February of issuing a statement of interest in the Austin case, underscoring the fact that appraisers, who are bound by the Fair Housing Act of 1968 to not discriminate, can be held legally liable if they do.
Mr. Austin said it was a big step for President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris to say that they want the appraisal industry to be overhauled. “But I do believe it is going to take quite a few more lawsuits in order for appraisers to stop devaluing Black and brown properties,” he said. “It’s a historical aspect of how people value Black and brown lives.”

The Justice Department’s move in the Austin case came several months after Mr. Biden announced the creation of the Interagency Task Force on Property Appraisal and Valuation Equity, which aims to evaluate the causes of appraisal bias and execute an action plan to root it from the industry. The task force is led by Susan E. Rice, the White House domestic policy adviser, and Marcia L. Fudge, the secretary of housing and urban development. One year in, say senior HUD officials, they are working to bolster its governance over the Appraisal Foundation, which sets standards for appraisers.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/...ingSource=articleShare&smid=nytcore-ios-share

America's reality in a nutshell

Home Appraised With a Black Owner: $472,000. With a White Owner: $750,000.​

Last summer, Nathan Connolly and his wife, Shani Mott, welcomed an appraiser into their house in Baltimore, hoping to take advantage of historically low interest rates and refinance their mortgage.
They believed that their house — improved with a new $5,000 tankless water heater and $35,000 in other renovations — was worth much more than the $450,000 that they paid for it in 2017. Home prices have been on the rise nationwide since the pandemic; in Baltimore, they have gone up 42 percent in the past five years, according to Zillow.com.
But 20/20 Valuations, a Maryland appraisal company, put the home’s value at $472,000, and in turn, loanDepot, a mortgage lender, denied the couple a refinance loan.

Dr. Connolly said he knew why: He, his wife and three children, aged 15, 12 and 9, are Black. A professor of history at Johns Hopkins University, Dr. Connolly is an expert on redlining and the legacy of white supremacy in American cities, and much of his research focuses on the role of race in the housing market.

Months after that first appraisal, the couple applied for another refinance loan, removed family photos and had a white male colleague — another Johns Hopkins professor — stand in for them. The second appraiser valued the house at $750,000.
This week, Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott sued loanDepot, which is based in Foothill Ranch, Calif., as well as 20/20 Valuations and Shane Lanham, the owner of 20/20 Valuations. Mr. Lanham is the appraiser who conducted the first appraisal.
“We were clearly aware of appraisal discrimination,” said Dr. Connolly, 44. “But to be told in so many words that our presence and the life we’ve built in our home brings the property value down? It’s an absolute gut punch.”
The home appraisal industry, which relies partly on subjective opinions to translate home values into dollars and cents, has faced a firestorm of criticism over the past two years.

More than 97 percent of home appraisers are white, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and since the summer of 2020, when conversations on race and discrimination in America rose to the forefront following the murder of George Floyd, dozens of Black homeowners have alleged discrimination in the home valuations they received. Some have filed lawsuits, and the Biden administration in March announced a set of planned reforms to overhaul the appraisal industry and dismantle systemic bias.

Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott live in the North Baltimore neighborhood of Homeland, known for its strong public schools and colonial architecture, which has earned it a place on the National Register of Historic Places. A majority of their neighbors are white. According to their complaint, which was filed in Maryland District Court on Monday, the couple applied to refinance their mortgage with loanDepot in May 2021. The lender approved a loan at a rate of 2.25 percent and, according to the complaint, told the couple that their home was likely now worth $550,000 or more.
To conduct the appraisal, loanDepot hired 20/20 Valuations as a subcontractor.
Mr. Lanham conducted the inspection himself on June 14, 2021. According to the complaint, Dr. Connolly, Dr. Mott and their three children were home during the visit, and their house was also filled with family photos, children’s drawings of figures with dark skin, a poster for the film “Black Panther” and literature by Black authors (Dr. Mott lectures on literature and Africana studies).
“It would have been obvious to anyone visiting that the home belonged to a Black family,” the complaint reads. The appraisal came back just $22,000 more than they had paid, and loanDepot based its rejection of the couple’s application on the low number.
The couple criticized the way Mr. Lanham came up with his appraisal. Home appraisers frequently rely upon the sales comparison approach, in which they weigh real estate against the sale prices of similar nearby homes to determine value.
In Mr. Lanham’s appraisal, he selected three homes with values ranging from $435,000 to $545,000 (a fourth comparable, which sold for $650,000, was ultimately not used in his valuation).
The first home used, the complaint argues, would be considered a “fixer-upper,” which the home of Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott is not.


The second is outside the boundaries of the Homeland neighborhood, amid a majority-Black census block of homes.

In the third, he deducted $50,000 from the comparison amount because Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott’s home faces a busy street — a deduction, the complaint says, that “is excessive and is inconsistent with proper appraisal practices.” Another $20,000 was deducted for the quality of construction.
All of the selected comparable homes, the complaint says, were of lower quality than Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott’s home, and the appraisal incorrectly stated that their home had not received any updates for 15 years.
According to the complaint, Mr. Lanham “cherry-picked low value homes as comps,” and by doing so, he “ignored legitimately comparable homes with much higher sales prices.”
When reached by phone on Tuesday, Mr. Lanham declined to comment.
Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott wrote a letter to Christian Jorgensen, a lending officer at loanDepot who had been their main point of contact up to that point, challenging the appraisal. According to the complaint, the loan officer then stopped responding to their calls.
Mr. Jorgensen did not respond to requests for comment.
Several months later, the couple applied for a new loan with Swift Home Loans, which partnered with Rocket Mortgage. This time they underwent a “whitewashing experiment,” removing indications of Blackness from their home and replacing them with signifiers that a white family might live there instead. They cleared their bookshelves of works by Black authors. They asked white friends to share family photos and placed those in picture frames around the house; on their walls, they hung art bought at Ikea that showed white people.
An American flag that was presented to Dr. Mott 10 years ago after the death of her father, a Vietnam War veteran, was removed from storage, framed and placed on the mantel.

“We had to have a conversation with our kids about why we’re pulling down all their drawings,” Dr. Connolly said. “It’s very humiliating to strip yourself of your own home.”

On the day of the second appraisal, they left their home and had the white colleague answer the door. The second appraiser provided the $750,000 estimate.
The homes pulled by the second appraiser were of significantly higher value than those selected by Mr. Lanham, selling from $749,000 to $785,000. And while Lanham docked $50,000, or 10 percent, from the comparable homes that were not on a busy road, the second appraiser deducted $15,000, or 2 percent. The complaint says that the 2 percent adjustment is consistent with industry standards.
Race has long played a role in housing policy in the United States, and Black Americans are denied mortgages at disproportionate rates. The impact of redlining, a racist Depression-era housing policy, continues to drive down home values in Black neighborhoods and deprive resources for communities of color.
But Dr. Mott and Dr. Connolly do not live in a Black neighborhood. The disparity in their two appraisals echoes a lawsuit brought by Tenisha Tate-Austin and Paul Austin, a Black couple in California’s Bay Area who have accused an appraiser of lowballing their home’s value by $500,000. That case, said Mr. Austin, is scheduled for mediation — a chance to resolve the matter before heading to court — in September.
“We’re looking to hold people accountable,” Mr. Austin said.
The Department of Justice made the unusual move in February of issuing a statement of interest in the Austin case, underscoring the fact that appraisers, who are bound by the Fair Housing Act of 1968 to not discriminate, can be held legally liable if they do.
Mr. Austin said it was a big step for President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris to say that they want the appraisal industry to be overhauled. “But I do believe it is going to take quite a few more lawsuits in order for appraisers to stop devaluing Black and brown properties,” he said. “It’s a historical aspect of how people value Black and brown lives.”

The Justice Department’s move in the Austin case came several months after Mr. Biden announced the creation of the Interagency Task Force on Property Appraisal and Valuation Equity, which aims to evaluate the causes of appraisal bias and execute an action plan to root it from the industry. The task force is led by Susan E. Rice, the White House domestic policy adviser, and Marcia L. Fudge, the secretary of housing and urban development. One year in, say senior HUD officials, they are working to bolster its governance over the Appraisal Foundation, which sets standards for appraisers.
I've posted study after study after study in these threads supporting this. It all goes ignored. It is a CURRENT problem regardless of what some want you to believe.
 

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