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You're right. I'm sure somebody could probably come up with a pretty good system for determining a teacher's performance.
Sure. Is it impossible to figure out who those few are? Is seniority a good way to determine the best teachers?
That's fair. I know education is very unique in that the 'customer' isn't paying directly, gov't is the payee, intangible direct benefit etc. It's a unique field. I wonder how a highly-scheduled business (doctors, manufacturing etc) handle quality assurance and performance metrics. Maybe there are fields where the time constraints are analogous.
Where I work we are evaluated annually. It is based on student growth through pre and post test data as well as multiple observations by administration. We then meet with the administrator and go over every point to come to a concensus on where we stand. It's reasonable. Some of the points (the State chose the eval model) are ridiculous and its impossible to be rated as highly effective(One of the highly effective points is attending student events that are not school related - I actually think that one could be borderline creepy). However, you are doing an average job, you should no problem being labeled effective. We have had a couple teachers "quit" over the last couple years because they had too many poor reviews and had failed to take action on the recommendations for improvement.
In your opinion were those teachers below average?
While it is true that their are poor performers in every field, the difference is that management could fire the poor performers in other fields if it wished to.
I'll give you a good rating if you give me a ride home after school Mrs.....Robinson.
Several comments in this thread detailing why the teaching profession is a different dynamic. Either you haven't read this thread, or dismissed those reasons as irrelevant.
They were awful. I hated having to work with them and I found them to be an embarrassment to the school.
Most.
C'mon, man. Are you kidding me with this? EVERY profession is a "different dynamic". That doesn't excuse teachers from getting performance reviews and weeding out the poor performers - like EVERY profession. When people talk like this, it makes me think that all they want to do is sit on their ### and coast.
have to say he is spot on in my case. I was in business school. It wasnt for me. I went into teaching because it was the opposite spectrum. Now they are trying to model education after a business model. I could have just stuck with business if that is what I wanted.
Okay. I'm good with your assessment. How much can I make? Give me a ballpark for my potential maximum salary?
Whatever the market/taxpayers will bear for your profession.
I'm getting the impression that teacher's don't want to be judged based on their students. So if they have a crappy set of students then they can't be judged on their performance. The alternative is, of course, that if they do get students to improve (like in your case) they can't be judge/accept cred for that either.
I'm asking your opinion.
Not to mention that some of the dumbest human beings imaginable are school administrators. At least from what I've seen for my wife.
1) That's a tough call because i'm not really qualified. But if you want a non-qualified opinion I'd say this following would be included but not limited to:
Avg in Michigan is 60,000. So we are talking about a range of 54-66. Just to give it some real world numbers.
My kids come from a long line of great teachers on wife's side and I will do everything I can to keep them from teaching now based on the way this society values them. They can make much more coin in a much easier environment in many more places these days. It's just not worth it financially for educated people to be teachers (or coaches) these days. And its getting worse.
Yes, but as long as you don't care that much about making big money, I think it's the best job in the world.
What's 100K+? Is that a max of $199,999.99?
I'm firm believer that I'd rather be happy than rich, or even well-off. And I think a lot of other people are that way too.
Thats a very good wage given the time off. The average is about $10K higher in CA. There are some real high spots though. There are school districts in the Bay Area where the average is over $100K.
Sure. Maybe a bigger range. Thanks for having a reasonable exchange. PIK - teaching is a very solid job for many people. It's not like everyone with a BA Finance or CS degree is pulling 250+. Median income in the US for a bachelors degree is around 50k.
I gave you a number. Make as much as the market/taxpayers will bear for your services. If the market/taxpayers can support paying you 199,999.99 then that's fantastic.
Big money? Gotta at least pay the bills and its trending in a bad direction now. The environment suxors too. My wife is an art teacher in a great school. She has been there for years and her students win many awards and she is very highly regarded. She has been hating it (even though she is in denial) mostly over the last couple of years. Its really changing for the worse and its not gonna get better. The worst part for me is that the kids and families don't take any responsibility for themselves anymore. This new batch of "changes" reinforces that attitude. Every kid is a genius these days and its the teachers fault when they don't improve (Even if they are a little A How). Like I said, my kids are out.
I assume that's already happening, so the odds of me making that 100K+ salary is just your opinion and not really going to happen. That sucks.
I think you can thank the unions for that. Here in WI the teachers really hurt their cause with their behavior during the ACT 10 debate and, most recently, during the right to work debate (although, it was nothing like the ACT 10 nonsense).
What if you teach a more specialized subject? I teach AP Calculus and AP Statistics. Should I make more? If so, how much?
Well, you're the one asked me for my OPINION, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. People are answering your questions but you keep responding with what I can only assume is shtick (and sarcasm) at this point.
Holy ####, man. That's awesome!
Are you better than your peers at it? If so, sure. I do t know what your Socratic questioning is going to prove in here. None of us have all the answers. We just think the assumption that 'teaching is one example where you can't appropriateky apply performance metrics' is a bad assumption. We can hold that opinion without having a perfect performance-based compensation system worked out on paper.
Are you high? Yeah, unions don't fight for the people they represent, they hurt them. If Union workers didn't have the little bit of strength in numbers that they have now, they would be in much worse shape. I have yet to see a big business that is non union where the owners just pay the workers fairly and treat them well out of the kindness of there hearts. Stop with that. Teachers unions dont hurt teachers.
I don't think it's that ridiculous. However, I think you and I are on the same page on this subject for the most part.
Unions incite the kind of behavior we saw from them and Unions stopped representing their members DECADES ago when they became the fund-raising arm for the Democratic Party.
I'd like to pay you more for caring more.Thanks for the replies. It's partially just for fun. I'm good with what I get paid. I plan to do it for a lot longer and you'll never hear me complain. I find these discussions mildly entertaining. If you're going to be good at this job it has to come from within. A paycheck will never be a good motivator when it comes to this job. Ask all the good ones and they'll tell you the same thing. I work hard at it because I want to be able to look in the mirror and know I did my best. Knowing I've impacted some lives is a great bonus. They just have to pay me enough to keep me interested and continue to give me enough autonomy. Have a nice day.
