Teacher's Seniority (1 Viewer)

[Ilov80s]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

It's very dependent on where you live and the cost of living. That would put you in a mansion in Arkansas and maybe modest apartment in San Diego. I'll never approach that, but Michigan is reasonably affordable.

 

[PIK95]

I'd say a range of 20%. Great teachers make 10% more than the average. Below average teachers make 10% below the average. Something like that.

My kids come from a long line of great teachers on wife's side and I will do everything I can to keep them from teaching now based on the way this society values them. They can make much more coin in a much easier environment in many more places these days. It's just not worth it financially for educated people to be teachers (or coaches) these days. And its getting worse.

Yes, but as long as you don't care that much about making big money, I think it's the best job in the world.

Big money? Gotta at least pay the bills and its trending in a bad direction now. The environment suxors too. My wife is an art teacher in a great school. She has been there for years and her students win many awards and she is very highly regarded. She has been hating it (even though she is in denial) mostly over the last couple of years. Its really changing for the worse and its not gonna get better. The worst part for me is that the kids and families don't take any responsibility for themselves anymore. This new batch of "changes" reinforces that attitude. Every kid is a genius these days and its the teachers fault when they don't improve (Even if they are a little A How). Like I said, my kids are out.

I think you can thank the unions for that. Here in WI the teachers really hurt their cause with their behavior during the ACT 10 debate and, most recently, during the right to work debate (although, it was nothing like the ACT 10 nonsense).

Are you high? Yeah, unions don't fight for the people they represent, they hurt them. If Union workers didn't have the little bit of strength in numbers that they have now, they would be in much worse shape. I have yet to see a big business that is non union where the owners just pay the workers fairly and treat them well out of the kindness of there hearts. Stop with that. Teachers unions dont hurt teachers.

Unions incite the kind of behavior we saw from them and Unions stopped representing their members DECADES ago when they became the fund-raising arm for the Democratic Party.

Preach brother!

 

[Ilov80s]

I'd say a range of 20%. Great teachers make 10% more than the average. Below average teachers make 10% below the average. Something like that.

My kids come from a long line of great teachers on wife's side and I will do everything I can to keep them from teaching now based on the way this society values them. They can make much more coin in a much easier environment in many more places these days. It's just not worth it financially for educated people to be teachers (or coaches) these days. And its getting worse.

Yes, but as long as you don't care that much about making big money, I think it's the best job in the world.

Big money? Gotta at least pay the bills and its trending in a bad direction now. The environment suxors too. My wife is an art teacher in a great school. She has been there for years and her students win many awards and she is very highly regarded. She has been hating it (even though she is in denial) mostly over the last couple of years. Its really changing for the worse and its not gonna get better. The worst part for me is that the kids and families don't take any responsibility for themselves anymore. This new batch of "changes" reinforces that attitude. Every kid is a genius these days and its the teachers fault when they don't improve (Even if they are a little A How). Like I said, my kids are out.

There are things I don't like about teaching and some of the trends, but the job is great. It's fun, time flies by, there is a crazy amount of vacation time, and it's rewarding. I make plenty to pay the bills (although it helps my wife has a nice job and we have no kids).

 

[Ilov80s]

Union talk. Can we not?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Union talk. Can we not?

Yeah, sorry. I shouldn't have started that tangent. My bad.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'd say a range of 20%. Great teachers make 10% more than the average. Below average teachers make 10% below the average. Something like that.

Avg in Michigan is 60,000. So we are talking about a range of 54-66. Just to give it some real world numbers.

Thats a very good wage given the time off. The average is about $10K higher in CA. There are some real high spots though. There are school districts in the Bay Area where the average is over $100K.

What is more important that the number is the number compared to cost of living/average cost of a house.

 

[Ilov80s]

Union talk. Can we not?

Yeah, sorry. I shouldn't have started that tangent. My bad.

It's ok, we just already now how it will play out and it's not intetesting or productive.

 

[Hov34]

Can you explain why you believe that, of all professions, it is impossible to assess performance of teachers?

Several comments in this thread detailing why the teaching profession is a different dynamic. Either you haven't read this thread, or dismissed those reasons as irrelevant.

C'mon, man. Are you kidding me with this? EVERY profession is a "different dynamic". That doesn't excuse teachers from getting performance reviews and weeding out the poor performers - like EVERY profession. When people talk like this, it makes me think that all they want to do is sit on their ### and coast.

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of the "teacher's are special and can't be touched" attitude. FEAR can be a great motivator towards improvement.

Okay. I'm good with your assessment. How much can I make? Give me a ballpark for my potential maximum salary?

Whatever the market/taxpayers will bear for your profession.

You're hilarious.

 

[Paulymaggs]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

 

[RCon]

Can you explain why you believe that, of all professions, it is impossible to assess performance of teachers?

Several comments in this thread detailing why the teaching profession is a different dynamic. Either you haven't read this thread, or dismissed those reasons as irrelevant.

EDIT: To add to the other comments. Here's a reason you perhaps haven't thought of: Great teaching, not just good, is about making an emotional connection with a kid. Think back to your great teachers. The ones that had some form of impact on your life. You probably don't choose that teacher because of the facts they helped you learn. They made you think more of yourself. They made you think you had potential. Building on this idea, which is the better teacher? They one that guides you to a wealthy life, or the one that guides you to simply being a happier person? Which do we value? Almost 100% of parents would choose to have their kid have a happier life as opposed to a better test score. How do you objectively measure that? I'm all for you trying, but good luck finding a way to pay me more. Again, this is about paying me more for being successful, right?

What I keep seeing over and over again is arguments against using test scores as a performance measure. Personally, I'd agree with that. What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

I'm also in favor of paying superior teachers more. Obviously, if there's no method for determining which teachers are superior, then we can't pay those teachers more.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Can you explain why you believe that, of all professions, it is impossible to assess performance of teachers?

Several comments in this thread detailing why the teaching profession is a different dynamic. Either you haven't read this thread, or dismissed those reasons as irrelevant.

C'mon, man. Are you kidding me with this? EVERY profession is a "different dynamic". That doesn't excuse teachers from getting performance reviews and weeding out the poor performers - like EVERY profession. When people talk like this, it makes me think that all they want to do is sit on their ### and coast.

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of the "teacher's are special and can't be touched" attitude. FEAR can be a great motivator towards improvement.

Okay. I'm good with your assessment. How much can I make? Give me a ballpark for my potential maximum salary?

Whatever the market/taxpayers will bear for your profession.

You're hilarious.

Hmmm...I'm curious. Unpack this a bit for me please.

 

[AcerFC]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

both publicWife- HS Biology

Me- 8th grade social studies

 

[RCon]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

That only shows that you haven't looked. For example:

http://www.newcanaan.k12.ct.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=36300

That's before any extra-curricular duties or summer jobs.

 

[Insein]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

both publicWife- HS Biology

Me- 8th grade social studies

How many years? What degrees? State?

 

[mr roboto]

Yeah, wealthier Burbs in big metros pay 100k+ for long tenure with Masters and additional credits. My wife was making 75K at year 9 masters +5.

 

[Ilov80s]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

That only shows that you haven't looked. For example:

http://www.newcanaan.k12.ct.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=36300

That's before any extra-curricular duties or summer jobs.

CT also has the 2nd highest cost of living in the country. It's almost 50% above the national average.

 

[RCon]

Absolutely, cost of living and salary go hand-in-hand.

 

[Ilov80s]

http://www.takepart.com/photos/average-teacher-salary-by-state-teachers-salaries/1-michigan

Average teacher pay after adjustment for cost of living. Michigan is number one.

 

[jonessed]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

That only shows that you haven't looked. For example:

http://www.newcanaan.k12.ct.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=36300

That's before any extra-curricular duties or summer jobs.

CT also has the 2nd highest cost of living in the country. It's almost 50% above the national average.

That's how it works for every profession. If you want to make more you need to move to where they pay more.

 

[AcerFC]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

both publicWife- HS Biology

Me- 8th grade social studies

How many years? What degrees? State?

NY state. 40 minutes north of NYC. We both have our masters degree. I have plus 60. She has plus 75. I have been teaching 15 years, she has for 14.

 

[Ilov80s]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

That only shows that you haven't looked. For example:

http://www.newcanaan.k12.ct.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=36300

That's before any extra-curricular duties or summer jobs.

CT also has the 2nd highest cost of living in the country. It's almost 50% above the national average.

That's how it works for every profession. If you want to make more you need to move to where they pay more.

Yes. Also then spend a significant portion of that money to live in that place.

 

[AcerFC]

The top of my scale is 130,000

But we are in contract negotiations and it is not going to be pretty. Might not go up much which im sure you are all bummed about

 

[Insein]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

both publicWife- HS Biology

Me- 8th grade social studies

How many years? What degrees? State?

NY state. 40 minutes north of NYC. We both have our masters degree. I have plus 60. She has plus 75. I have been teaching 15 years, she has for 14.

Makes sense then.

 

[Soonerman]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

 

[Mario Kart]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

And, when those schools kick that kid out because that kid isn't showing improvement OR because that kid talks during the whole class and acts a fool... where does that kid go?

 

[Soonerman]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

And, when those schools kick that kid out because that kid isn't showing improvement OR because that kid talks during the whole class and acts a fool... where does that kid go?

To another school?

 

[Flying V]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

And, when those schools kick that kid out because that kid isn't showing improvement OR because that kid talks during the whole class and acts a fool... where does that kid go?

He spends a night in the box.

 

[PIK95]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

I was thinking just let the government TAKE OVER and run all the schools. That would really be great IMO.

 

[Mario Kart]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

And, when those schools kick that kid out because that kid isn't showing improvement OR because that kid talks during the whole class and acts a fool... where does that kid go?

To another school?

How many private schools are going to accept him?

Also, how many private school are going to accept him if the student doesn't bring the government check that the first school kept?

 

[Soonerman]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

And, when those schools kick that kid out because that kid isn't showing improvement OR because that kid talks during the whole class and acts a fool... where does that kid go?

To another school?

How many private schools are going to accept him?

Also, how many private school are going to accept him if the student doesn't bring the government check that the first school kept?

I would say 12 to the first question and 7 to the second.

 

[Ilov80s]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

Not a good idea IMO. You make the kids customers instead students then you deal with a lot of other issues (the customer is always right).

 

[Insein]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

Not a good idea IMO. You make the kids customers instead students then you deal with a lot of other issues (the customer is always right).

Correct. Education should not be treated like a business. What I would like is for Federal interference to stop. If it doesn't involve discrimination issues (disability act, civil rights, etc) then I would prefer the states and local municipalities to dictate what happens. The NCLB is killing a lot of good teachers and setting kids back for a full generation now. Teaching to the test is mandatory not frowned upon. Get out of the National test business and back to enhancing the curriculum based on knowledge and not how to answer a multiple choice question.

 

[Mario Kart]

Standardized tests have caused more problems than what they have solved. All they have done is make a few people rich by having to create, make, print, teach to those tests. Kids hate them. By the time they're in high school, many just click buttons without a care in the world. Yet, we still pay the test people and some citizens still think this is the way to go. What a sham.

Get the tests out of the system and I'll show you happier students.

 

[Ilov80s]

I can't like the last 2 posts enough.

 

[MCguidance]

My wife and I are both teachers

I made 107,000 this year with no coaching

My wife makes something in the 115-120,000 range. I dont remember exactly

High School? Middle School? Private School?

The only 'teachers' that clear 6 figures that I know are University types...

My high school contract maxes at $117k. Masters plus 45.

 

[mr roboto]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

Not a good idea IMO. You make the kids customers instead students then you deal with a lot of other issues (the customer is always right).

Correct. Education should not be treated like a business. What I would like is for Federal interference to stop. If it doesn't involve discrimination issues (disability act, civil rights, etc) then I would prefer the states and local municipalities to dictate what happens. The NCLB is killing a lot of good teachers and setting kids back for a full generation now. Teaching to the test is mandatory not frowned upon. Get out of the National test business and back to enhancing the curriculum based on knowledge and not how to answer a multiple choice question.

Damn right. Can't imagine why a teacher like PIK would want full fed gov't control of education. Trainwreck.

 

[Despyzer]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

 

[MAC_32]

I can't like the last 2 posts enough.

 

[MaxThreshold]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

Good point. I wonder how every other company in the world even survives giving out employee evaluations.

 

[MAC_32]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

Good point. I wonder how every other company in the world even survives giving out employee evaluations.

Nope, try again.

 

[The Big Guy]

Every teacher I know in NJ always talks about what a favorites club it is and how there would be a certain number of unemplyed if the school administration was able to target the unpopular at will. Makes a certain bit of sense to me, but how is that different than the real world and normal employment?

Judging teachers by test scores is a bad idea only for the simple reason that every school that I have ever been in has had different levels of classrooms of students, based on their abilities. The teachers in the A classrooms will all look fantastic while the C level room teachers will all look horrible. How can that be fair to the teachers, as a C class teacher will never have students who test as well as an A level room teacher, no matter who is the better one at their job.

 

[pecorino]

Seniority in private schools, well mine at least, is becoming a negative as the Heads and Boards look to cut costs. No tenure, no unions. There is still a lot of fear after the recession so we're trimming master teachers to add folks right out of college. It's a scary climate right now in private schools, one that has driven me towards administration to try to protect myself. I have 22 years of teaching experience and left my job for fear I was being slowly pushed out. No evaluations, by the way, except once every five years, no standardized tests. It's politics and Yes-men, and keep your head down.

 

[RCon]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

Are you suggesting that you don't know which teachers in your school are better/worse? I find that difficult to believe.

There are virtually no professional jobs where management directly observes the employees at work, yet somehow they all find a way to evaluate the employees. So, what makes teaching different again?

 

[AcerFC]

I can honestly say I have zero clue which teachers in my school are good or bad. I can also say that I dont even know about half of their names.

 

[MAC_32]

I can honestly say I have zero clue which teachers in my school are good or bad. I can also say that I dont even know about half of their names.

I would be surprised if this is not the case in just about every larger school.

 

[MAC_32]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

Are you suggesting that you don't know which teachers in your school are better/worse? I find that difficult to believe.

There are virtually no professional jobs where management directly observes the employees at work, yet somehow they all find a way to evaluate the employees. So, what makes teaching different again?

Not feasible until more money is funneled back into schools. The top admin are already stretched so thin that they really don't know what goes on in the classrooms day to day, week to week. If people want teachers to be appropriately evaluated by admin then you need to pony up for more bodies employed at schools.There would be other negative consequences to doing this, but the public won't approve the funding to make this a reasonable possibility so it's irrelevant anyway.

 

[Mario Kart]

When did principals become "managers" of their schools? I guess I have a different focus as to what the principals job is.

I was in high school 20 years ago and I never had a principal walk into any of my classes to sit down, observe, and write down what's going on on a sheet of paper. Never happened and I went to the best public high school in Wisconsin. Now they are supposed to do this exact thing 3-4 times a year? How stupid is that?

Principals are supposed to be at school to support the staff, take care of business that teachers can not, be the disciplinarian since teachers are there to teach. For some reason, teachers are supposed to be the disciplinarian, call parents and the principal is supposed to be the "manager" of all this? When is there time to teach?

 

[Soonerman]

What is really needed is to get the government out of operating schools. Just cut parents a check and let them pick whatever privately operated school they can afford.

Not a good idea IMO. You make the kids customers instead students then you deal with a lot of other issues (the customer is always right).

The parents not the students would be the customers, and that would be a good thing.

And since no current private school (or any other business for that matter) operates under a "the customer is always right" philosophy, we can dismiss that critique out of hand.

 

[Hooper31]

If you want to treat education like a business, who is the customer(s)?

 

[MaxThreshold]

What I haven't seen is an argument why teacher performance can't be assessed subjectively by peers and managers.

Because you are then adding a huge bureaucratic expense of offering enough evaluations to merit terminating someone's employment to where it couldn't reasonably be challenged in court. We are at the end of the third quarter where I teach, and I have been evaluated by a district employee for about ten minutes (while I was giving a test) and by an administrator for about seven minutes. If someone tried to tell me I was doing a poor job of teaching based on twelve minutes of observation out of 130 days, that person would probably have a pretty heated argument on his/her hands.

Are you suggesting that you don't know which teachers in your school are better/worse? I find that difficult to believe.

There are virtually no professional jobs where management directly observes the employees at work, yet somehow they all find a way to evaluate the employees. So, what makes teaching different again?

Not feasible until more money is funneled back into schools. The top admin are already stretched so thin that they really don't know what goes on in the classrooms day to day, week to week. If people want teachers to be appropriately evaluated by admin then you need to pony up for more bodies employed at schools.There would be other negative consequences to doing this, but the public won't approve the funding to make this a reasonable possibility so it's irrelevant anyway.

Oh, c'mon already. More money? That's all we've done here in Milwaukee is funnel billions of dollars into MPS (Milwaukee Public Schools) and what results do we get? ####ty test scores and high dropout rates. That's all we ever hear is that they need more money but year after year it's the same story.

Money isn't the issue.