Teams in the Salary Cap Era (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

I've been researching results from the salary cap era (starting with the 1994 season). Win or lose next week, the Patriots have been to their 5th Super Bowl since the advent of the salary cap. No other team has been to more than 2.

In that time, NE has the most combined regular season wins (145 . . . 2 more than GB) and the most post season wins (18 . . . 6 more than PIT). They are tied with IND and DB with 10 playoff appearances in those 14 seasons.

Since we always hear that this is a copycat league, what haave the Pats been doing that other franchises need to adjust their model to improve their results?

Combined regular season record (1994-Present):

NE 145-79-0 0.647

GB 143-81-0 0.638

PIT 139-84-1 0.623

DEN 137-87-0 0.612

IND 134-90-0 0.598

PHI 124-99-1 0.556

KC 124-100-0 0.554

MIN 123-101-0 0.549

JAX 113-95-0 0.543

DAL 120-104-0 0.536

SEA 119-105-0 0.531

SF 118-106-0 0.522

TEN 116-108-0 0.518

MIA 116-108-0 0.518

TB 115-109-0 0.513

NYG 113-110-1 0.507

BAL 96-95-1 0.503

STL 107-117-0 0.478

BUF 107-117-0 0.478

CAR 97- 111-0 0.466

CHI 104-120-0 0.465

NYJ 101-123-0 0.451

ATL 100-123-1 0.449

WAS 100-123-1 0.449

SD 109-115-0 0.446

OAK 96-128-0 0.429

NO 94-130-0 0.420

CLE 66-110-0 0.375

CIN 86-138-0 0.374

DET 86-138-0 0.374

ARI 81-143-0 0.362

HOU 32-64-0 0.333

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

 

[David Yudkin]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

 

[dutch]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

Maybe, maybe not. NE 145-79-0 0.647- Bellickick & BradyGB 143-81-0 0.638 Holmgren & Favre PIT 139-84-1 0.623 Cowher & RothlisbergerDEN 137-87-0 0.612 Shanahan & ElwayIND 134-90-0 0.598 Dungy & ManningPHI 124-99-1 0.556 Reid & McNabb The top six winningest regular season teams since the advent of the cap all had or have a combination of hof coach and hof qb yet none of the others has been as successful as the Patriots. Gotta be more to it than that.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

They've actually had 2 HOF coaches over this period, including Parcells (94-96).They've sustained for a long period of time. Philadelphia is high on that record list, but they stunk before Reid and McNabb.Covering >10 years is the differentiator here.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

Maybe, maybe not. NE 145-79-0 0.647- Bellickick & BradyGB 143-81-0 0.638 Holmgren & Favre PIT 139-84-1 0.623 Cowher & RothlisbergerDEN 137-87-0 0.612 Shanahan & ElwayIND 134-90-0 0.598 Dungy & ManningPHI 124-99-1 0.556 Reid & McNabb The top six winningest regular season teams since the advent of the cap all had or have a combination of hof coach and hof qb yet none of the others has been as successful as the Patriots. Gotta be more to it than that.

elway hasnt played since 1999.Big Ben has only played since 2004 holmgren hasnt been in GB in a long time eitherEither way you need coach or QB at a HOF level.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

Maybe, maybe not. NE 145-79-0 0.647- Bellickick & BradyGB 143-81-0 0.638 Holmgren & Favre PIT 139-84-1 0.623 Cowher & RothlisbergerDEN 137-87-0 0.612 Shanahan & ElwayIND 134-90-0 0.598 Dungy & ManningPHI 124-99-1 0.556 Reid & McNabb The top six winningest regular season teams since the advent of the cap all had or have a combination of hof coach and hof qb yet none of the others has been as successful as the Patriots. Gotta be more to it than that.

most know that I'm an Eagles fan, but I'm not putting either of Reid or McNabb in the HOF at this point.Philly from 2000+ is solid. 24-24 the last 3 seasons, but 59-21 from 00-04. Going to 99 and earlier kills that win %.

 

[nerangers]

How about a team owner that is also a fan of the team? It seems that all the moves Kraft does is for the best of the team and not just for the best of the business. Add Scott Pioli into the formula, and you have a winning mix.

A Patriots fan since their American Football League days, he has been a season ticket holder since 1972. He bought an option on the parcel which contained Sullivan Stadium, then the home of the Patriots, in 1985. In 1988, he outbid several competitors to buy the stadium out of bankruptcy court for $25 million. It was renamed Foxboro Stadium in 1990. These transactions and Kraft's overall business success ultimately gave him the leverage to become owner of the New England Patriots.In 1992, the Patriots themselves were bought by James Orthwein, a St. Louis native. For the next two years, rumors of a Patriots move to St.Louis were rampant based on the fact that Orthwein wanted to return the NFL to a city that had lost the Cardinals in 1988. Finally, in 1994, Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to buy out the remainder of the team's lease at the Foxboro Stadium. If Kraft agreed, it would free Orthwein to move the Patriots to St. Louis. Kraft turned him down, instead making a $175 million bid to buy the team and save the Patriots from relocation. Orthwein had little choice but to accept -- up to that point in history it was the highest price ever paid for a professional team. The price was especially remarkable since the Patriots were at that time one of the least-valued teams in the NFL.Upon purchasing the team, Kraft made a commitment to Patriots fans that he would bring a Super Bowl and a state of the art facility for the team to New England. His follow-through on those promises would exceed even the wildest of expectations.The day after the NFL approved the sale in January of 1994, Patriots fans showed their appreciation by purchasing almost 6,000 season tickets en route to selling out every game for the first time in the team's 34-year history.

 

[NEUPJ]

How about a team owner that is also a fan of the team? It seems that all the moves Kraft does is for the best of the team and not just for the best of the business. Add Scott Pioli into the formula, and you have a winning mix.

It's part Kraft being a fan that helps, and the fact that he learned his lesson after the Parcells saga to stay the hell out of football operations. It only took 3 years of Pete Carroll and Grier drafting to learn that he maybe should find someone who knows how to draft and someone who knows how to run a team.

 

[womb]

Wow!!

I can almost read between the lines that drafting is luck, top teams get the benefit of being able to sign quality players for cheap and Tom&Bill were destined to be HoF material.

Come on people!!

First of all, do you know how much is put into drafting? Really?? Does any single one of you make more money than a head scout for an NFL team? Or is it absolute coincidence that the Falcons hired a scout, manely Thomas Dimitroff from the Patriots, as their new GM? I know it is not a fool proof thing, but please do give credit to where it belongs. True, the franchise would not be even close to where it is today without the well researched & well coordinated draft efforts.

Secondly, really was Bill destined to be a Hall of Famer or is it the chicken and egg story? He made a good team and fed them the humble pie. He brought together players at costs unimaginable. He is a good coach and a great strategist. More importantly though, Kraft let him run his wild horses. I am very dubious if Al Davis or Jerry Jones would have had the same effects if he were to coach say Oakland or Dallas? Maybe. My hats off to the ownership.

Third, yes Brady has been a good find, and yes if Bledsoe did not get injured where would we be now?? Those are good questions, but hey does not Romo ring the same bell?? And after just one good year how much did he settle for? I believe again hats off to Tom who never threatened to sit out or try to front load his contract. We all know he could have done it starting all the way back in 2001. I do not know the figures, but I doubt if his contract is still taking as much chunks from the cap as other QBs. To the best of my knowledge, he has so far negotiated down or back his salary twice.

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

I boil it down to this: Team effort and hard work from every component of the franchise. Thankfully, they were focused and skilled as well.

 

[Phlash]

Wow!! I can almost read between the lines that drafting is luck, top teams get the benefit of being able to sign quality players for cheap and Tom&Bill were destined to be HoF material.Come on people!! First of all, do you know how much is put into drafting? Really?? Does any single one of you make more money than a head scout for an NFL team? Or is it absolute coincidence that the Falcons hired a scout, manely Thomas Dimitroff from the Patriots, as their new GM? I know it is not a fool proof thing, but please do give credit to where it belongs. True, the franchise would not be even close to where it is today without the well researched & well coordinated draft efforts.Secondly, really was Bill destined to be a Hall of Famer or is it the chicken and egg story? He made a good team and fed them the humble pie. He brought together players at costs unimaginable. He is a good coach and a great strategist. More importantly though, Kraft let him run his wild horses. I am very dubious if Al Davis or Jerry Jones would have had the same effects if he were to coach say Oakland or Dallas? Maybe. My hats off to the ownership.Third, yes Brady has been a good find, and yes if Bledsoe did not get injured where would we be now?? Those are good questions, but hey does not Romo ring the same bell?? And after just one good year how much did he settle for? I believe again hats off to Tom who never threatened to sit out or try to front load his contract. We all know he could have done it starting all the way back in 2001. I do not know the figures, but I doubt if his contract is still taking as much chunks from the cap as other QBs. To the best of my knowledge, he has so far negotiated down or back his salary twice. Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?I boil it down to this: Team effort and hard work from every component of the franchise. Thankfully, they were focused and skilled as well.

In the Brady threads, its all about the team around him, in the BB threads, its all about how he has a HoF QB, and with Scott Pioli its all about how he has got lucky on picks/FA signings.Maybe they're all just good? Why discredit them all for being good?

 

[DawnBTVS]

The one thing that I think helps separate the Patriots is that they define roles and fill them with players. Some teams (and fans) decide that BPA is the way to win but the Patriots are satisfied making a couple big signings and spending the rest of the money on quantity role players rather than a smaller number of quality players at higher prices.

Everybody remarks that the LB corps has been aging, which has been true for the last 3-4 years it seems and yet they never pay a 1st round draft pick at LB to "fill the need" because they know they can draft a guy later or sign a UFA (ala Oscar Lua and Pierre Woods this year who have played a part in adding depth) as well as filling out other areas through free agency.

I've read in "Education of a Coach" and "Patriot Reign" that one of the biggest pieces of advice that Jimmy Johnson gave to Belichick in regards to the NFL Draft was be realistic when filling the board with players they want. "Patriot Reign" in particular offers a great insight at the 'role' of drafting and not only how a player fits into the NFL but specifically fits into the Patriots.

A rough paraphrase: They have a grade system but included in the outlining by author Michael Holley is a paraphrase that a scout won't be yelled at if a player they liked is a bust in the draft if drafted by another team, because they (Belichick, Pioli) know that he may have been a good fit for the Patriots regardless.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

It is actually a pretty well discussed known theory. Players from 20 on in the first round have much lower salaries that top 5-7 picks, but still have high talent level. Many people consider late first and early second to be the sweet spot of the draft. I will edit and add some specific examples.2006Draft slot 2Reggie Bush salary:6 years, 60 million, 26 million guaranteesDraft slot 21Laurence Maroney salary:5 years, 8.7 million, 6 million in guarantees

 

[womb]

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

It is actually a pretty well discussed known theory. Players from 20 on in the first round have much lower salaries that top 5-7 picks, but still have high talent level. Many people consider late first and early second to be the sweet spot of the draft. I will edit and add some specific examples.

Well discussed?? I am sorry, but I have never in my entire life seen a team wanting to trade down to a lower draft position straight up. Never, ever... I do not care if talent has been there at the end of the round of if the top 5 have been busts. If you were a GM, Head coach or whomever that has the authority to decide on draft day that it is better for your franchise in this salary cap era to trade down to pick 25+ from your top 5 spot straightup, just because research tells you that tere is talent for cheap there, you will get fired within the day - unless that is you are the owner. Heck, even then I believe the press along with the fans will take a deep toll on you.

 

[womb]

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

It is actually a pretty well discussed known theory. Players from 20 on in the first round have much lower salaries that top 5-7 picks, but still have high talent level. Many people consider late first and early second to be the sweet spot of the draft. I will edit and add some specific examples.2006Draft slot 2Reggie Bush salary:6 years, 60 million, 26 million guaranteesDraft slot 21Laurence Maroney salary:5 years, 8.7 million, 6 million in guarantees

Simply put, do you think Pioli would have turned down pick #2, if New Orleans said "Hey man, we think bottom 1st and top 2nd is the sweet spot of the draft, so we want to trade down to your #21 spot straight up as it is also much more cap friendly for our franchise."Or unless hell froze over, do you think New Orleans would come up with a trade like that?Seriously now.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

 

[Spike]

How about a team owner that is also a fan of the team? It seems that all the moves Kraft does is for the best of the team and not just for the best of the business. Add Scott Pioli into the formula, and you have a winning mix.

A Patriots fan since their American Football League days, he has been a season ticket holder since 1972. He bought an option on the parcel which contained Sullivan Stadium, then the home of the Patriots, in 1985. In 1988, he outbid several competitors to buy the stadium out of bankruptcy court for $25 million. It was renamed Foxboro Stadium in 1990. These transactions and Kraft's overall business success ultimately gave him the leverage to become owner of the New England Patriots.

In 1992, the Patriots themselves were bought by James Orthwein, a St. Louis native. For the next two years, rumors of a Patriots move to St.Louis were rampant based on the fact that Orthwein wanted to return the NFL to a city that had lost the Cardinals in 1988. Finally, in 1994, Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to buy out the remainder of the team's lease at the Foxboro Stadium. If Kraft agreed, it would free Orthwein to move the Patriots to St. Louis. Kraft turned him down, instead making a $175 million bid to buy the team and save the Patriots from relocation. Orthwein had little choice but to accept -- up to that point in history it was the highest price ever paid for a professional team. The price was especially remarkable since the Patriots were at that time one of the least-valued teams in the NFL.

Upon purchasing the team, Kraft made a commitment to Patriots fans that he would bring a Super Bowl and a state of the art facility for the team to New England. His follow-through on those promises would exceed even the wildest of expectations.

The day after the NFL approved the sale in January of 1994, Patriots fans showed their appreciation by purchasing almost 6,000 season tickets en route to selling out every game for the first time in the team's 34-year history.

Of high note here is that when talking about the stadium which "...Kraft made a commitment to Patriots fans...a state of the art facility...", is that he did it on his own dime. He didn't hold up Massachusetts for any of it. Not a dime.

 

[Spike]

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

It is actually a pretty well discussed known theory. Players from 20 on in the first round have much lower salaries that top 5-7 picks, but still have high talent level. Many people consider late first and early second to be the sweet spot of the draft. I will edit and add some specific examples.2006Draft slot 2Reggie Bush salary:6 years, 60 million, 26 million guaranteesDraft slot 21Laurence Maroney salary:5 years, 8.7 million, 6 million in guarantees

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Last, drafting at the bottom of each round due to success helping salary friendly quality players?? I have never heard such a theory. Yes, teams want to trade down to avert cap hits like the Dolphins, it looks to be this year for example, but one must be out of their fidgety mind if a team would rather have say a 28th pick over say a top 5 pick straight up. Trust me: drafting at the end of a round does not help! What is next? Looking back next year, shall the Patriots be blamed that they saved money towards their cap via forfeiting their pick in 1st round this year?

It is actually a pretty well discussed known theory. Players from 20 on in the first round have much lower salaries that top 5-7 picks, but still have high talent level. Many people consider late first and early second to be the sweet spot of the draft. I will edit and add some specific examples.

Well discussed?? I am sorry, but I have never in my entire life seen a team wanting to trade down to a lower draft position straight up. Never, ever... I do not care if talent has been there at the end of the round of if the top 5 have been busts. If you were a GM, Head coach or whomever that has the authority to decide on draft day that it is better for your franchise in this salary cap era to trade down to pick 25+ from your top 5 spot straightup, just because research tells you that tere is talent for cheap there, you will get fired within the day - unless that is you are the owner. Heck, even then I believe the press along with the fans will take a deep toll on you.

No one is saying that people would trade the 5th pick for the 25th pick. The picks however, must be linked to the cost, as the NFL is a hard cap league. Every $20 million that you spend in one place can't be spent anywhere else. Many teams, including the Patriots, sometimes consider that there may be more value in having the 25th pick plus forty million in cap space over the next 5 years (where you can resign your own proven players or prized free agents) than in having the first round pick- especially if you want your roster to have quality depth.

Hope this helps:

For best values, see below

By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff | April 22, 2007

"We have two No. 1 picks in the most economical part of the draft. The best value for high-quality players, if you pick right, is the second half of the first round." -- Robert Kraft, Jan. 21, 2007

In a NY Times article from 1/6/07 Kraft said this:

“The first five to eight picks are noneconomical,” Kraft said. “The sweet spot is mid to late first round, where you get players and the pay is market-friendly. We wanted to keep Adam and Deion. But if you make bad decisions, you can’t bury your errors. You have to balance that with a sense of loyalty to your players and your emotions.”

Here is an ESPN article comparing late first round wrs to early first round wrs

Link

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

 

[nerangers]

Consistency with coaching helps.

Every time a team changes the coaches, OC, DC, etc, it can be like starting back at square one. When you have young players, they need consistency. I was listening on NFL Network today and they were talking about QB Jason Campbell...every year he has somoeone new working with him, and the playbook is changed on him.

You look at a team like the Patriots, and they have stayed consistent. I did not check back on when they lost both Weiss and Crennel, but I think both positions were filled from within, leaving little overall change to the team.

Was BB a HOF coach before going to the Patriots? just curious.

 

[womb]

No one is saying that people would trade the 5th pick for the 25th pick. However, many teams, including the Patriots, sometimes consider that there is more value in having the 25th pick plus forty million in cap space over the next 5 years (where you can resign your own proven players or prized free agents) than in having the first round pick- especially if you want your roster to have quality depth.

Look man, what I am saying is simple. I can not believe it is taking this long.If someone tells me it has worked towards Patriots advantage that they picked in the "sweet spot of lower 20s" in the past few years as opposed to in the top 5, I would ask:

If they owned a spot in the top 5, would they not be able to cash it to move down to 15-30 area if they wanted?

To that question, I repeatedly find myself saying. Yes they would be able to move to that area. To the converse of the question, I find myself saying that they would need to come up with at least one more 1st rounder to move up to top 5.

Simple logic says if X can get you Y, and if Y can not get you X at any given point in time, owning X is better. Pats have owned Y for quite some time and admittedly made a killing through their choices. That still does not matter. Like everyone in the world except for maybe you and the well discussers would prefer X over Y.

So, it can not be argued that Pats were lucky to have lower 1st rounders. You have no idea in hell if they had a top 5 pick they would not trade down and build even a better franchise. They moved all over the board pretty much every draft since 2000. They may even shop this 7th out - and move down to 20s and perhaps gather a 2nd rounder. Can you possibly say "Nay, they would have been better off if the league took away #7 as opposed to pick #30+?"

Really, picking at lower 20s has not been the help they have got to get to where they have come. If you do want to give credit to how successful they used those economical picks, give it to the team.

 

[womb]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

blessed?we are not talking about a lucky 6th round pick here

from what I understand NE had tim rattay at and equal or above grade than Brady. wonder what would have happened if both were available in the 6th round

 

[David Yudkin]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

blessed?we are not talking about a lucky 6th round pick here

from what I understand NE had tim rattay at and equal or above grade than Brady. wonder what would have happened if both were available in the 6th round

I wonder what would have happened . . .2000 Draft Picks

1-18 Chad Pennington Jets Marshall

3-35 Giovanni Carmazzi 49ers Hofstra

3-13 Chris Redman Ravens Louisville

5-34 Tee Martin Steelers Tennessee

6-2 Marc Bulger Saints West Virginia

6-17 Spergon Wynn Browns Southwest Texas State

6-33 Tom Brady Patriots Michigan

6-36 Todd Husak Redskins Stanford

6-39 JaJuan Seider Chargers Florida A&M

7-6 Tim Rattay 49ers Louisiana Tech

7-8 Jarious Jackson Broncos Notre Dame

7-28 Joe Hamilton Buccaneers Georgia Tech

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

blessed?we are not talking about a lucky 6th round pick here

from what I understand NE had tim rattay at and equal or above grade than Brady. wonder what would have happened if both were available in the 6th round

I wonder what would have happened . . .2000 Draft Picks

1-18 Chad Pennington Jets Marshall

3-35 Giovanni Carmazzi 49ers Hofstra

3-13 Chris Redman Ravens Louisville

5-34 Tee Martin Steelers Tennessee

6-2 Marc Bulger Saints West Virginia

6-17 Spergon Wynn Browns Southwest Texas State

6-33 Tom Brady Patriots Michigan

6-36 Todd Husak Redskins Stanford

6-39 JaJuan Seider Chargers Florida A&M

7-6 Tim Rattay 49ers Louisiana Tech

7-8 Jarious Jackson Broncos Notre Dame

7-28 Joe Hamilton Buccaneers Georgia Tech

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

 

[thecatch]

YOUNG MAN, STEP AWAY FROM YOUR KEYBOARD FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY

No wonder people hate Patriots fans so much around here.

 

[DawnBTVS]

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

Nope. They had Brady and Rattay fairly equal but IIRC, Belichick and Pioli liked Brady's poise in the pocket and seemed to prefer him slightly more than Rattay. In "Education of a Coach" Belichick also made a reference that he liked Brady partly because he was something like 20-5 in games started in a tough conference while playing somewhat QBBC. He also noted that Brady had a leadership quality about him and that he would do well on drives, get pulled for Henson who'd struggle, go back in and do well, rinse and repeat.

 

[David Yudkin]

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

Nope. They had Brady and Rattay fairly equal but IIRC, Belichick and Pioli liked Brady's poise in the pocket and seemed to prefer him slightly more than Rattay. In "Education of a Coach" Belichick also made a reference that he liked Brady partly because he was something like 20-5 in games started in a tough conference while playing somewhat QBBC. He also noted that Brady had a leadership quality about him and that he would do well on drives, get pulled for Henson who'd struggle, go back in and do well, rinse and repeat.

IIRC, the Pats had someone on staff (a QB coach?) that suggested they take Brady and as he fell through most of the draft they finally consented and took him. So while BB and Pioli liked Brady, they weren't married to him and someone else was prompting them to take him (and that is the guy whose name escapes me).

 

[Pai Mei]

Technically Belichick has gone to 6 super bowls and 7 AFC title games with 3 different franchises in the salary cap era. Its all about him.

 

[Pai Mei]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

I seriously doubt that. Belichick had 2 rings and 3 super bowl appearances as a coach before Brady got drafted. He would have found a way.

 

[David Yudkin]

Technically Belichick has gone to 6 super bowls and 7 AFC title games with 3 different franchises in the salary cap era. Its all about him.

Hmmm . . . not sure where you are getting all those SB appearances. IIRC, BB has had the following with regard to SB appearances:1986 - NYG - Defensive Coordinator1990 - NYG - Defensive Coordinator1996 - NE - Assistant Coach2001 - NE - Head Coach2003 - NE - Head Coach2004 - NE - Head Coach2007 - NE - Head CoachHe got to the AFC title game in 1999 as an Assistant Coach with the Jets and in 2006 with the Pats. That gets the 7 AFC title games. I'm still short a SB inf the salary cap era (not that his resume is lacking).

 

[Pai Mei]

Technically Belichick has gone to 6 super bowls and 7 AFC title games with 3 different franchises in the salary cap era. Its all about him.

Hmmm . . . not sure where you are getting all those SB appearances. IIRC, BB has had the following with regard to SB appearances:1986 - NYG - Defensive Coordinator1990 - NYG - Defensive Coordinator1996 - NE - Assistant Coach2001 - NE - Head Coach2003 - NE - Head Coach2004 - NE - Head Coach2007 - NE - Head CoachHe got to the AFC title game in 1999 as an Assistant Coach with the Jets and in 2006 with the Pats. That gets the 7 AFC title games. I'm still short a SB inf the salary cap era (not that his resume is lacking).

Yah, youre right, it was before the salary cap era.

 

[BoltBacker]

Maybe they're all just good? Why discredit them all for being good?

Completely agree.It's been a perfect storm of great GM, great HC and great QB for several years.Not sure why so many people think they aren't investing anything in LB's though. One of the big reasons I put $ on them back in March was they signed Adalius Thomas and made the Wes Welker trade. Stallworth was nice too and Moss was acquired after I had already bet on them so that was just icing on the cake. IMO they realized their model of just getting by with Gaffney/Caldwell/Brown at WR and being forced to play guys at LB like Izzo and Beisel wasn't working and may have cost them the game in IND(otherwise they'd be the defending champs right now) so they were willing to be flexible and make moves to shore up in those areas.

 

[Franchise Playa]

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

Nope. They had Brady and Rattay fairly equal but IIRC, Belichick and Pioli liked Brady's poise in the pocket and seemed to prefer him slightly more than Rattay. In "Education of a Coach" Belichick also made a reference that he liked Brady partly because he was something like 20-5 in games started in a tough conference while playing somewhat QBBC. He also noted that Brady had a leadership quality about him and that he would do well on drives, get pulled for Henson who'd struggle, go back in and do well, rinse and repeat.

IIRC, the Pats had someone on staff (a QB coach?) that suggested they take Brady and as he fell through most of the draft they finally consented and took him. So while BB and Pioli liked Brady, they weren't married to him and someone else was prompting them to take him (and that is the guy whose name escapes me).

x2

 

[Tecmo]

The Patriots became a good team the instant Brady took over for Bledsoe. I like to think Belichick and Pioli would assemble playoff teams, but it's always been Brady that made them special.

The early part of this dynasty got a big boost with marginal skill players, no marquee RB, a crop a WRs to spread around and Brady consistently made it work. The Patriots had the luxery of spending high picks on quality lineman, specifically the DL. I like to think this team would of desperately needed better skill players if there was no Brady.

The team continues to win with the most important piece in place, now we got players wanting to come to this team. Dillon and Harrison were real big difference makers that wanted to come to this team to win for lesser money. The rich just got richer

Pioli and Belichick deserve lots of credit. They make good FA signings that fit their team, definitely an emphisus on playing sound defense, the trading and drafting have been stellar. The organization has been crazy-good since the salary cap, but it all started with Brady really

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Other teams have had good QBs and HOF coaches.

who else coaching is a HOF'er? Shannahan? Holmgren?Dungy? maybe Marty Schott? probably cowher. if this team didnt have brady they probably win 0 superbowls.

I seriously doubt that. Belichick had 2 rings and 3 super bowl appearances as a coach before Brady got drafted. He would have found a way.

QB is alot more improtant than you think. If you dont have a great one, you need an all time great D. Which his Giants had, the Ravens had and the Bucs had.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

Nope. They had Brady and Rattay fairly equal but IIRC, Belichick and Pioli liked Brady's poise in the pocket and seemed to prefer him slightly more than Rattay. In "Education of a Coach" Belichick also made a reference that he liked Brady partly because he was something like 20-5 in games started in a tough conference while playing somewhat QBBC. He also noted that Brady had a leadership quality about him and that he would do well on drives, get pulled for Henson who'd struggle, go back in and do well, rinse and repeat.

IIRC, the Pats had someone on staff (a QB coach?) that suggested they take Brady and as he fell through most of the draft they finally consented and took him. So while BB and Pioli liked Brady, they weren't married to him and someone else was prompting them to take him (and that is the guy whose name escapes me).

Don't know who suggest NE take Brady, but the other name to know is Mike Riley, a coach in San Diego in 2000. He pushed for the Chargers to draft Brady then and they didn't listen.Riley went on to coach at Oregon State and has helped develop and promote Derek Anderson, and now Matt Moore (Carolina).

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

blessed?we are not talking about a lucky 6th round pick here

from what I understand NE had tim rattay at and equal or above grade than Brady. wonder what would have happened if both were available in the 6th round

I wonder what would have happened . . .2000 Draft Picks

1-18 Chad Pennington Jets Marshall

3-35 Giovanni Carmazzi 49ers Hofstra

3-13 Chris Redman Ravens Louisville

5-34 Tee Martin Steelers Tennessee

6-2 Marc Bulger Saints West Virginia

6-17 Spergon Wynn Browns Southwest Texas State

6-33 Tom Brady Patriots Michigan

6-36 Todd Husak Redskins Stanford

6-39 JaJuan Seider Chargers Florida A&M

7-6 Tim Rattay 49ers Louisiana Tech

7-8 Jarious Jackson Broncos Notre Dame

7-28 Joe Hamilton Buccaneers Georgia Tech

That Tee Martin pick hurts.

 

[thecatch]

what did they do? got lucky with a 6th round QB pick and have a HOF coach

Uh uh - I don't buy it. That's like saying the guy that's got all your chips is lucky. Just because we haven't figured out what they're doing yet doesn't make it luck.

pleasethey hit the lotto in the 6th round, granted they took him. But sometimes Id rather be lucky than good

How about you man? do you feel blessed that you pulled a trade to move 1.05 to get LT? As opposed to Vick? We are not talking 6th round. We are talking 1.01 here and you guys wanted Vick, but could not pay. Things did turn out better, don't you say? Sometimes it is luck and sometimes not. Perhaps for the Chargers it can be argued that it is more of a luck to land LT, than for the Patriots Tom Brady. At least, having done their homework, they had him on their radar and took a bet he would fall. Whereas San Diego looks to have known they wanted Vick over LT at the time and I do not think it can be argued that he would have fallen to 2.01 like Brees did that year.

blessed?we are not talking about a lucky 6th round pick here

from what I understand NE had tim rattay at and equal or above grade than Brady. wonder what would have happened if both were available in the 6th round

I wonder what would have happened . . .2000 Draft Picks

1-18 Chad Pennington Jets Marshall

3-35 Giovanni Carmazzi 49ers Hofstra

3-13 Chris Redman Ravens Louisville

5-34 Tee Martin Steelers Tennessee

6-2 Marc Bulger Saints West Virginia

6-17 Spergon Wynn Browns Southwest Texas State

6-33 Tom Brady Patriots Michigan

6-36 Todd Husak Redskins Stanford

6-39 JaJuan Seider Chargers Florida A&M

7-6 Tim Rattay 49ers Louisiana Tech

7-8 Jarious Jackson Broncos Notre Dame

7-28 Joe Hamilton Buccaneers Georgia Tech

That Tee Martin pick hurts.

Well, there's a good chance that the Gio Carmazzi pick is the worst in NFL history, so it could have been worse.

 

[Workhorse]

must a had the stoy backwards as to rattay vs. brady

Nope. They had Brady and Rattay fairly equal but IIRC, Belichick and Pioli liked Brady's poise in the pocket and seemed to prefer him slightly more than Rattay. In "Education of a Coach" Belichick also made a reference that he liked Brady partly because he was something like 20-5 in games started in a tough conference while playing somewhat QBBC. He also noted that Brady had a leadership quality about him and that he would do well on drives, get pulled for Henson who'd struggle, go back in and do well, rinse and repeat.

IIRC, the Pats had someone on staff (a QB coach?) that suggested they take Brady and as he fell through most of the draft they finally consented and took him. So while BB and Pioli liked Brady, they weren't married to him and someone else was prompting them to take him (and that is the guy whose name escapes me).

It was **** Rehbein, the QB coach who died prior to the 2001 season. Story goes that Rehbein was super-high on Brady during the 2000 draft and pestered Belichick to draft him as high as the 3rd round. He was convinced that Brady was going to be the next Joe Montana after scouting him on the road at Michigan.

 

[Pat Patriot]

The Patriots became a good team the instant Brady took over for Bledsoe. I like to think Belichick and Pioli would assemble playoff teams, but it's always been Brady that made them special.

The early part of this dynasty got a big boost with marginal skill players, no marquee RB, a crop a WRs to spread around and Brady consistently made it work. The Patriots had the luxery of spending high picks on quality lineman, specifically the DL. I like to think this team would of desperately needed better skill players if there was no Brady.

The team continues to win with the most important piece in place, now we got players wanting to come to this team. Dillon and Harrison were real big difference makers that wanted to come to this team to win for lesser money. The rich just got richer

Pioli and Belichick deserve lots of credit. They make good FA signings that fit their team, definitely an emphisus on playing sound defense, the trading and drafting have been stellar. The organization has been crazy-good since the salary cap, but it all started with Brady really

According to Harrison in "America's Game", the NFL Network series, nobody else wanted him. Belichick called him and he signed almost immediately.

 

[NYRAGE]

Mo Lewis is the devil.

 

[switz]

NE 145-79-0 0.647- Bellickick & Brady (In that time, Beldsoe has played as much as Brady, Belichick has coached twice as long as either Parcells, or Carrol. Parcells really turned the team around, Carroll destroyed it, Belichick rebuilt it. Belichick & Parcells get the most credit IMO)GB 143-81-0 0.638 Holmgren & Favre (The only constant is Favre, Sherman coached longer than Holmgren in that time period. Sherman and Holmgren had an equal number of wins. Credit Favre)PIT 139-84-1 0.623 Cowher & Rothlisberger (Roeth has only been there for 64 games, about 30%, so the credit goes to Cowher.)DEN 137-87-0 0.612 Shanahan & Elway (How long ago did Elway retired ('98)? Credit Shanahan.)IND 134-90-0 0.598 Dungy & Manning (W/L % only improved slightly between Mora and Dungy. Credit Manning.)PHI 124-99-1 0.556 Reid & McNabb (Team didn't really turn it around until McNabb arrived. Reid is not a HOF coach IMO) The top six winningest regular season teams since the advent of the cap all had or have a combination of hof coach and hof qb yet none of the others has been as successful as the Patriots. Gotta be more to it than that.

It generally looks like it's one or the other. When both are together the team dominates. Look at the teams you listed. The HOF coach and QB were together only briefly for most of those teams. Brady and Belichick have been together for the longest stretch of all listed.Break it down this way:NE: Parcells = HOF coach. He had Beldsoe - was he HOF? Belichick = HOF coach. Brady = HOF QB.GB: Holmgren = HOF coach, Favre HOF QB. They were only together briefly in the salary cap era. Since Favre has not had a HOF coach.PIT: Cowher = HOF coach. He's never had a HOF QB.DEB: Shanahan = HOF coach. Elway = HOF QB. They were only together briefly at all.IND: Manning = HOF QB. I don't consider Mora or Dungy HOF coaches.PHI: I'm not sure Reid of McNabb are HOF calibre.I think it's arguable that when you match a HOF coach and QB, your team will be very good as long as they are together. One or the other keeps the team good, but not dominant.

 

[pats3in4]

The Patriots became a good team the instant Brady took over for Bledsoe. I like to think Belichick and Pioli would assemble playoff teams, but it's always been Brady that made them special.

The early part of this dynasty got a big boost with marginal skill players, no marquee RB, a crop a WRs to spread around and Brady consistently made it work. The Patriots had the luxery of spending high picks on quality lineman, specifically the DL. I like to think this team would of desperately needed better skill players if there was no Brady.

The team continues to win with the most important piece in place, now we got players wanting to come to this team. Dillon and Harrison were real big difference makers that wanted to come to this team to win for lesser money. The rich just got richer

Pioli and Belichick deserve lots of credit. They make good FA signings that fit their team, definitely an emphisus on playing sound defense, the trading and drafting have been stellar. The organization has been crazy-good since the salary cap, but it all started with Brady really

According to Harrison in "America's Game", the NFL Network series, nobody else wanted him. Belichick called him and he signed almost immediately.

Harrison, or Seau? IIRC, Rodney was getting competing offers from the Broncos and Raiders and was all set to sign with Oakland until the Pats called and said, "Don't sign until you at least meet with us." The Pats topped the Raiders' offer and the rest was history.Seau indeed wasn't wanted by anyone.

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

I had not looked at this thread and I am sick that I did.

NE 145-79-0 0.647

GB 143-81-0 0.638

PIT 139-84-1 0.623

DEN 137-87-0 0.612

IND 134-90-0 0.598

PHI 124-99-1 0.556

KC 124-100-0 0.554

MIN 123-101-0 0.549

JAX 113-95-0 0.543

DAL 120-104-0 0.536

SEA 119-105-0 0.531

Some sad facts:8 of the top 11 teams have played in a SB (KC, MIN, JAX exceptions).

Every other team of the top 11 has been to at least a conference title game in this period except KC (they did go in the last season before the cap, losing to BUF in th 1993 AFC Title game).

Every other team, except SEA has been to at least TWO Conderence title games.

Here is the final dagger. Not only has KC not been to a SB, or even a AFC Title Game (let alone two), they have not won a stinking playoff game!!!! God, that is so sickening with that regular season resume.

 

[switz]

The Patriots became a good team the instant Brady took over for Bledsoe. I like to think Belichick and Pioli would assemble playoff teams, but it's always been Brady that made them special.

This is really a load of crap.Belichick's first year was a rebuilding season, as Carroll had completely destroyed the integrity of the team. They went 5-11, the defense was horrendous, and the running game was pretty awful as well, with Kevin Faulk as their leading rusher. Still Bledsoe was decent, and Troy Brown had 944 yards.The second year, Belichick had made vast changes on defense, over the second half of the season only ONE team scored more than 16 points.. He also added Antowain Smith who was very productive.Granted, going with the younger guy is 99% of the time the smart move, but to say the team would have stunk with Bledsoe is erroneous. We don't know. What we do know is when Bledsoe was with another HOF coach, they went to the SuperBowl. When Tom Brady came in the first half of the 2001 season, the team still struggled. They were 4-4 half way through the season, with Bledsoe only playing one game, the first, which they lost. He still put up the 5th highest passing output of the entire season, but the team ran for only 68 yards, the second worst rushing output of the season. The defense allowed 23 points, the 5th worse of the season. If Bledsoe had been in there the full year, would they have been better? Maybe. But to say they were better as soon as Brady got in there is just factually wrong.

 

[Anarchy99]

Someone suggested that a team needed either a HOF QB or an all-time great defense to win the SB recently.

2006 Indianapolis Colts - Manning should meet the HOF requirement

2005 Pittsburgh Steelers - Is Big Ben HOF worthy? Was PIT an all-time great defense?

2004 New England Patriots - I guess most are giving Brady a free pass to Canton.

2003 New England Patriots - I guess most are giving Brady a free pass to Canton.

2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - No one is pimping Brad Johnson for the HOF . . . their defense was their calling card.

2001 New England Patriots - I guess most are giving Brady a free pass to Canton.

2000 Baltimore Ravens - Dilfer is not getting into Canton without a ticket, and certainly the defense was stout.

1999 St. Louis Rams - Is Warner a HOF QB (I say no). The Rams defense was nothing spectacular.

1998 Denver Broncos - Elway meets the HOF criteria

1997 Denver Broncos - Elway meets the HOF criteria

1996 Green Bay Packers - Favre will meet the HOF criteria

1995 Dallas Cowboys - Aikman meets HOF criteria, but I would contend DAL won more as a team than because of him

1994 San Francisco 49ers - Young meets the HOF proviso

It does seem like most of the time that that has beenthe case.

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

I would say considering 2005 Steelers are the only team to win three road games and then the SN tells me that they don't fit that criteria.