Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Ted Ginn (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sean Baca
- Start date
I posted a mock that had the Bucs taking Adrian Peterson and expected a lot of heat for it but leaving Ginn out of the first round was all the talk so let me hear why he is a first rounder shark pool!!!The Jacket
Footballguy
Because he has top-15 talent.
Simple, really.
Simple, really.
jurb26
Footballguy
Family Matters
Footballguy
If really think he's not getting drafted early 1st, let alone in the first, then you are on an island unto yourself. Do you really need to know why he's going in the first? This sounds more like aI posted a mock that had the Bucs taking Adrian Peterson and expected a lot of heat for it but leaving Ginn out of the first round was all the talk so let me hear why he is a first rounder shark pool!!!
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I have questions about him, but so many of the sources I trust have him pretty highly ranked, usually the #2 WR. The question is whether he is the #2 WR for fantasy purposes or for NFL purposes. Either way, I feel pretty sure he'll be going in the first.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
With the potential to fill in at D-back, Troy Brown-like, in a pinch.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
This is all that matters to me, I currently have Meacham as my #2 WR in this rookie pool and Ginn's injury does concern me juuuuuust a little.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Z30? Don't you dare!I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
The leagues I'm currently in does not count return yardage and I've currently taken Leonard off of my board, I too don't think he'll do much in the way of fantasy football. I have the 7th pick in one league and Meacham is the guy I'm looking at, unless Irons or Pittman is there then I may reconsider.I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.
Sean Baca
Footballguy
More to the point I guess would be to ask if he should be taken ahead of:MeechumThe leagues I'm currently in does not count return yardage and I've currently taken Leonard off of my board, I too don't think he'll do much in the way of fantasy football. I have the 7th pick in one league and Meacham is the guy I'm looking at, unless Irons or Pittman is there then I may reconsider.I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.This is all that matters to me, I currently have Meacham as my #2 WR in this rookie pool and Ginn's injury does concern me juuuuuust a little.
Bowe
Rice
Gonzales
Jarrett
all of whom are first round receiver talent, I mean has Devin Hester really changed team needs with his performance last year?
Last edited by a moderator:
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
What Hester did last year doesn't happen too often and probably won't for anther 25 years, but it looks good to draft "the next Hester" I'd take my chances with Meach or Bowe before Ginn..........just my two pennies.More to the point I guess would be to ask if he should be taken ahead of:MeechumThe leagues I'm currently in does not count return yardage and I've currently taken Leonard off of my board, I too don't think he'll do much in the way of fantasy football. I have the 7th pick in one league and Meacham is the guy I'm looking at, unless Irons or Pittman is there then I may reconsider.I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.
Bowe
Rice
Gonzales
Jarrett
all of whom are first round receiver talent, I mean has Devin Hester really changed team needs with his performance last year?
Blackjacks
Footballguy
In my opinion he is the 2nd coming of Peter Warrick, R. Ismail or Desmond Howard. I don't see him being anything but a return guy in the NFL for his career and get frustrated everytime I hear him going to the Rams. I know the "Rocket" had an okay career but that would be his high side.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Well, I imagine you're talking NFL needs, so maybe not. Of course, don't forget Dante Hall of a couple of years ago and maybe some GMs are thinking that one guy like that is an outlier, but two is a trend. From a fantasy perspective, Hester was the 28th ranked CB in one of my leagues last year and 51st DB. Since there are 12 teams in the league and 3 DBs started on most teams, that's not starting material. Not to mention that he had some poor scoring games when he didn't break some returns, so starting him was a wing and a prayer type of decision. But even if Ginn is just an average #3 or #4 WR next year, if he has some good success at returns, it can move his stock up quite a bit and the WR points may be consistent enough for him to be startable in a 3WR league.More to the point I guess would be to ask if he should be taken ahead of:MeechumThe leagues I'm currently in does not count return yardage and I've currently taken Leonard off of my board, I too don't think he'll do much in the way of fantasy football. I have the 7th pick in one league and Meacham is the guy I'm looking at, unless Irons or Pittman is there then I may reconsider.I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.This is all that matters to me, I currently have Meacham as my #2 WR in this rookie pool and Ginn's injury does concern me juuuuuust a little.
Bowe
Rice
Gonzales
Jarrett
all of whom are first round receiver talent, I mean has Devin Hester really changed team needs with his performance last year?
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Your jedi mind tricks won't work on me.Z30? Don't you dare!I think people forget that sometimes. You need to separate the NFL future from the fantasy future. I think Brian Leonard is another guy like that who will really help his NFL team, but may not be quite as valuable in fantasy leagues. Of course, I do have the 6th pick in a dynasty league that does count return yardage and TDs for players, so Ginn is probably a decent pick in that league.
cstu
Footballguy
It took Rocket a long time to become a good receiver, then he got injured and never fully recovered. The upside I side with Ginn is that he learns to play WR faster than Rocket and stays healthy. I can see him as a good #2 WR as well as one of the top returners in the NFL from day one. And like Andy said he's also a good CB and can fill in if needed.
-OZ-
Footballguy
edited for accuracy.I don't care if a team likes a player. That team has to prefer that player to any others available.
prefontaine
Footballguy
I guess it comes down to the fact that I would be quite surprised if he ever started a game as a WR. And it's hard for me to believe that this warrants a first round pick or makes him a top 15 talent. Return men touch the ball 6-10 times a game. The guys who consistently make big returns (ie Dante Hall), go games where they just don't kick to him. I don't want to spend a 1st round pick on a guy that if it turns out he is everything I hoped he would be, doesn't touch the ball in some games. I'm not saying there is not value in the extra 10 yards or whatever I get when they kick it away from him. But give me Meachem or Bowe and I have a better shot at a true impact player.
TheLastDispatch
Footballguy
SwampDawg
Footballguy
:X As a Miami fan I have been saying the sme things over on finheaven but some people refuse to get it.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
He reminds you guys of Peter Warrick because you want him to remind you of Peter Warrick.
He could just as easily be compared to Steve Smith by his supporters. That's because we're all only looking for examples that prove our opinions. It's the same case in the Brady Quinn discussion.
Comparing players seems like an exercise in futility to me. Each individual is different.
Oh, and Peter Warrick would have his doors blown off by Ginn. The best time I can find for Warrick is a 4.48. That's a far cry from the 4.2-something that Ginn will run when healthy.
The comparison to Ismail may be closer, but we'll never know what kind of player he could have been. Going to Canada really hurt his chances in the NFL, IMO. He was behind the curve from that point on and never recovered.
He could just as easily be compared to Steve Smith by his supporters. That's because we're all only looking for examples that prove our opinions. It's the same case in the Brady Quinn discussion.
Comparing players seems like an exercise in futility to me. Each individual is different.
Oh, and Peter Warrick would have his doors blown off by Ginn. The best time I can find for Warrick is a 4.48. That's a far cry from the 4.2-something that Ginn will run when healthy.
The comparison to Ismail may be closer, but we'll never know what kind of player he could have been. Going to Canada really hurt his chances in the NFL, IMO. He was behind the curve from that point on and never recovered.
Last edited by a moderator:
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
While I think he is WR3 (Calvin, Meachem) I certainly wouldn't cry if the Titans found him on the board when they picked. Kick returners have the ability to change a game in one play, which even if it doesn't happen more then once or twice a year is a HUGE deal. Even when they don't break them, there is a big difference between starting a drive at the 20 and at the 25.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if he was the second WR taken...everyone after Johnson appears to have comparable WR skills (in that none of them are sure-fire can't miss prospects who are going to come in and be successful Year 1). At least with Ginn, he'll provide real value as a returner his first year.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I wish I had the stones to keep to my convictions and have him mocked to the Redskins in my final draft. In the end, I chickened out.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Probably a wise decision. There's discussion about "draft range" in a couple different threads around here. I have the sense Ginn (and Levi) have the widest possible ranges. There is a strange drop off after the Packers of teams with an interest in Ginn. Could be they all expect him to be gone by then, could be they have other interests to worry about. Ginn like Lynch could be the focus of a early 2nd round team moving up to nab him if he slips into the 20s. Or not. In the mock I hope to finish before the real draft, I have him 9 to Miami.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I came very close to pulling that trigger too.
cstu
Footballguy
That was mainly a highlight reel of returns. The catches that he had were with DB's playing 10 yards off (one DB was actually walking away from the LOS with his back turned to Ginn when the play started). His speed and agility are extremely rare so I believe he'll make a big impact wherever he goes as a KR/PR, but I don't see him as much more than a gadget play/#3 WR in the NFL. Maybe in a few years he could develop but he needs a lot of work, not to mention getting bigger so he doesn't get manhandled by DB's at the LOS.
TheLastDispatch
Footballguy
Thought that too. Would have been nice to see him make a catch in coverage, but he looked amazing on returns, and he did show he could get open I guess. Still, would have been nice to see him have to make aplay when he wasn't wide open.
Ginn is a hard guy to evaluate.
He's got crazy functional football speed, reminiscent of Rocket Ismail. Ismail would have gone #1 overall, so it's easy to imagine scouts would spend a mid-first on Ginn, enticed by the same kind of potential.
Ismail didn't live up to the hype, however, and Ginn has some of the same limitations as a WR that Ismail had. Speed will only do so much for a player. He's still got to run sound patterns and catch the ball.
I have a hard time imagining Ginn as a WR1 in the NFL. He will always have a role within the offense because of his skills with the ball in the open field. He will at least be a very dangerous slot receiver, and will always be an asset to his team's offense. But who wants to spend a first-round pick on a slot receiver?
Can Ginn develop into a solid starter at WR? He's got the athleticism to do so, but he is far behind a lot of other prospects in terms of his route-running and general WR skills. A lot of guys, no matter how fast they are, never blossom into solid all-around WRs. Rocket Ismail eventually became a good WR, but it took about six years after he got to the NFL (following three(?) years in the CFL).
In fact, you know who Ginn reminds me of a bit as a WR coming out of college? Eddie Kennison. Kennison did develop into a solid starting WR, but (as with Ismail) it took many years.
As a returner, Ginn is top-notch. I guess that's where the comparisons to Desmond Howard and Peter Warrick come in, but I really don't see much similarity other than the fact that all are good returners. Howard was a much better route-runner in college than Ginn, but lacked anything close to Ginn's speed. Warrick, similarly, was more quick than fast. Ginn is super fast but, if anything, is a bit straight-line-ish, which is the exact opposite of Howard and Warrick.
In any case, I suspect it will be a while before Ginn becomes a solid starter at WR for an NFL team, if it ever happens. But he's got so much speed for scouts to fall in love with, there's no way he'll fall out of the first round. And at the very least, he'll be a dangerous threat as a kick returner and a slot receiver. I think he's got too much speed and big-play ability to be a complete bust. But I also have a hard time envisioning him ever becoming the kind of football player that Steve Smith or Santana Moss are. He doesn't seem to have the ball skills or the knack for running patterns that they do.
He's got crazy functional football speed, reminiscent of Rocket Ismail. Ismail would have gone #1 overall, so it's easy to imagine scouts would spend a mid-first on Ginn, enticed by the same kind of potential.
Ismail didn't live up to the hype, however, and Ginn has some of the same limitations as a WR that Ismail had. Speed will only do so much for a player. He's still got to run sound patterns and catch the ball.
I have a hard time imagining Ginn as a WR1 in the NFL. He will always have a role within the offense because of his skills with the ball in the open field. He will at least be a very dangerous slot receiver, and will always be an asset to his team's offense. But who wants to spend a first-round pick on a slot receiver?
Can Ginn develop into a solid starter at WR? He's got the athleticism to do so, but he is far behind a lot of other prospects in terms of his route-running and general WR skills. A lot of guys, no matter how fast they are, never blossom into solid all-around WRs. Rocket Ismail eventually became a good WR, but it took about six years after he got to the NFL (following three(?) years in the CFL).
In fact, you know who Ginn reminds me of a bit as a WR coming out of college? Eddie Kennison. Kennison did develop into a solid starting WR, but (as with Ismail) it took many years.
As a returner, Ginn is top-notch. I guess that's where the comparisons to Desmond Howard and Peter Warrick come in, but I really don't see much similarity other than the fact that all are good returners. Howard was a much better route-runner in college than Ginn, but lacked anything close to Ginn's speed. Warrick, similarly, was more quick than fast. Ginn is super fast but, if anything, is a bit straight-line-ish, which is the exact opposite of Howard and Warrick.
In any case, I suspect it will be a while before Ginn becomes a solid starter at WR for an NFL team, if it ever happens. But he's got so much speed for scouts to fall in love with, there's no way he'll fall out of the first round. And at the very least, he'll be a dangerous threat as a kick returner and a slot receiver. I think he's got too much speed and big-play ability to be a complete bust. But I also have a hard time envisioning him ever becoming the kind of football player that Steve Smith or Santana Moss are. He doesn't seem to have the ball skills or the knack for running patterns that they do.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Is the argument that Ginn wouldn't make a very good #1? I'm down with that.
But on a team that runs 3 Wr sets (for example), he'd be a deadly #3 at a minimum - thus improving the #1 and #2 guys - and would develop into a #2 over time.
Can you imagine him in Arizona running a 3 wide with Boldin & Fitzgerald. That would be almost unfair.
But on a team that runs 3 Wr sets (for example), he'd be a deadly #3 at a minimum - thus improving the #1 and #2 guys - and would develop into a #2 over time.
Can you imagine him in Arizona running a 3 wide with Boldin & Fitzgerald. That would be almost unfair.
Last edited by a moderator:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Family Matters
Footballguy
Keep in mind that Ginn has only been a WR for 3 years. He played DB in HS. If you compare his Freshman year to last year the difference is amazing. He improved his route running very nicely and as you would expect. So I think it's reasonable to expect that he would continue to improve. All the evidence of what he's done leads me to believe that. Regardless of what others have done, or not done, I can really only go by what he's done. Another thought is that Warrick, Ismial and the others have absolutely nothing to do with Ginn. It's fun to compare but at the end of the day one has nothing to do with the other. So if you evaluate Ginn with a blind towrds what others have done I think you see Ginn for what he is. A super fast guy that's played WR for 3 years that is improving each year. For evidence of how it's working you observe that he's played against top level DB's at Texas, Michigan and others he blew them away with outstanding games.Not sure what not's to like going forward.Maurile Tremblay said:
Fallerjw
Footballguy
Ginn in his last 5 games against big name teams:
Hard to say what he would have done against Florida, but I'm guessing he would have had a decent game. It's tough to say he won't produce when he's put up these numbers against some of the best competition.
Code:
2005Michigan 9 rec 89 yds 0 TDND 8 rec 167 yds 1 TD2006Texas 5 rec 97 yds 1 TDMichigan 8 rec 104 yds 1 TDFlorida 0 rec 0 yds 0 TDHe could replace Welker also. Possibly even improve their return game.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Maurile Tremblay said:
The bolded sentence represents my biggest drawback with Ginn, outside of the obvious size concerns. The really small NFL WRs that have excelled (Smith, Moss, Harrison) have lightning quickness to create seperation. I really haven't seen that with Ginn. I don't see that lateral sudden-ness and fluidity that the Smiths and Moss' have.
jurb26
Footballguy
Didn't watch the highlights huh. I'd say at least 8 of the highlights on that real contradict what you are saying here.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
My opus on Ginn is in the mock I am working on, but I have never... ever... seen a man separate like him. His quicks are different than Moss and Steve Smith, who are like Barry Sanders with the lateral stuff. I would argue he is very similar to Harrison in that regard, both track guys, both quick, both not prone to juking. Near the end of those highlights you see a corner fall when Ginn breaks in the endzone for an easy TD. You can find two other corners falling on Ginn breaks in different highlight reels, and I have vivid memory of a couple others. Gentlemen, if corners are falling down against Ginn, he is running sweet routes. It is pretty simple. I was hard on Holmes last year in part because Ginn was always doubled and still outproducing him late in the season, and Family Matters and I both discussed the great improvement in Ginn's route running a year ago.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Not that clip, no (no highspeed out here in the field), but I did see him play quite a bit in college and don't remember the Warrick/Moss "lightning in a bottle" make-people-miss ability. I remember being struck by his speed, but didn't see anything reminiscent of the Booker run vs. ND or anything similar.
prefontaine
Footballguy
So, just for arguments sake, would you trade a mid-first rounder for Az Hakim or Dante Hall (feel free to pick their primes btw)? Or do you see Ginn having significantly better skills?Andy Dufresne said:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
No. Yes.
Family Matters
Footballguy
You're right and I remember that discussion well. You make some great points here and I know this goes without saying but you can't teach speed. What can be taught is route running and he's learned well IMO. I really don't know what else he could have done to improve. And considering he was doubled often his performance is even more impressive. I do know that some of the guys he played big against are going to be high draft picks this weekend. There's no reason to think he won't be even better with a couple more years of NFL training.
Sean Baca
Footballguy
I agree that he has learned to run better routes but in every route that is not a crossing, vertical or hitch route, he runs them at an ordinary speed. When he has the ball in his hands he is as good as anyone I have ever seen and as CC said, he seperates like nobody else. The only guy I've ever seen who could seperate like him is Bo Jackson and I have NEVER said that about a player before. But my question about him is can he lose NFL corners on routes other than the three I mentioned or will he need to be game planned for and only be of great offensive value on "seven step drop" types of routes? and if not is he a first round draft pick as a return man who can be good when the QB gets time to throw the long routes?
Family Matters
Footballguy
If he can lose corners on long routes, and can seperate like Bo then why wouldn't he able to catch a short pass and lose the corner? I think you answered your own question. Guys that are fast and can seperate are totally dangerous. Route runnimg can be learned and he's learned well the last 2 years so I really think he's got what it takes. There hasn't been anything to suggest he can't. What were area of concern before have been getting addressed.
Sean Baca
Footballguy
Well, not really I think the (original) question still stands, is a guy who can run two routes, a better option than the other WR's that are in the draft? The Tampa Two defense is taylor made to stop a guy like Ginn. Yes I think his seperation is unreal but if you can sit on just few routes then coverage becomes easy. I am not asking if Ginn will be any good in the NFL, of course a guy with his talents and speed will be good. The question was will his speed get him drafted above the others in his draft class and more to the point in the first round.
