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The #2 WR becomes the #1 WR phenomenon (1 Viewer)

Joe T

Footballguy
I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year. He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me. He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense. How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

 
I just dealt Evans and Battle

for Lelie, McMichael and a 2007 #1 pick

in my dynasty league.

I don't understand the hype at all.

Losman ?

 
Im gonna have to join in on the non-hype for Lee Evans. I think he does have some talent, but I dont like the Bills offense at all. I also dont like any of the three choices they have at QB.

 
I'm sure the theory is that they will throw for X # of yards and they have to go to someone. He's the best available wr so he will get the lionshare of the yards/td's. I'll pass on him and take Horn probably around the same spot.....

 
Losman was terrible early in the year, was benched, and then played much better after replacing an injured Holcomb and leading the Bills to a win over the Chiefs.

From that Chiefs game up until the Patriots game in week 14, Losman was the QB for nearly 5 complete games. During that time period, Evans had 21 rec for 380 yards and 5 TDs.

Obviously, it is a very limited sample and I'm not suggesting we read too much into it, but those numbers prorated over a full season would be: 67 rec, 1216 yards, and 16 TDs.

:excited:

Losman winning the QB job would be the best thing for Evans.

 
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Evans has the talent to back up the hype, but I don't see the offensive support being enough to make it happen.

 
We covered some of this in this thread. Here are some high (or low) lights:

I really like Lee Evans this year. He's young (25 years old, 3rd year in the league). He's averaging 16.5 yards per catch and 8 touchdowns per season over his first two seasons, with just 48 receptions per year.

This year, he's finally the number one receiver, and I think he has a good passer throwing him the ball. When he played last year, Holcomb had a 67.4% completion percentage... In the seven games in which he had more than six attempts, he threw at least one touchdown in all seven games, and two touchdowns in three of those games. I admit Holcomb is fragile, but if he plays all 16 games, Lee Evans might be ranked too low on my list.

Evans' modest production thus far may just be lack of opportunity. In his first two years, he's had 12 games in which he's caught four or more passes:

2004 - WK 4 - 4 rec, 93 yds, 0 td

2004 - WK 9 - 5 rec, 64 yds, 1 td

2004 - WK 12 - 6 rec, 70 yds, 1 td

2004 - WK 13 - 4 rec, 110 yds, 2 td

2004 - WK 14 - 4 rec, 33 yds, 1 td

2004 - WK 15 - 5 rec, 101 yds, 1 td

2004 - WK 16 - 8 rec, 92 yds, 2 td

2005 - WK 11 - 4 rec, 69 yds, 0 td

2005 - WK 12 - 5 rec, 45 yds, 0 td

2005 - WK 13 - 5 rec, 117 yds, 3 td

2005 - WK 14 - 4 rec, 83 yds, 0 td

2005 - WK 16 - 5 rec, 107 yds, 1 td

TOTAL: 12 games, 59 rec, 984 yds, 12 td

Now, as the number one WR, I think 60 receptions is the low end for him...he'll probably be somewhere between 60 and 80 receptions. I doubt his level of touchdown production will increase much, but his yardage certainly should... Do you think 60-80 receptions, 1000-1200 yards, and 10 tds is out of the question?
Regarding Lossman providing Evans with his best games...
All the 2004 games listed, of course, were with Bledsoe...but you're right, aside from the week 16 game, all the 2005 games listed were with Lossman.
Regarding Lee Evans being ranked above Roy Williams...
There's not much of an argument really, I think it's just a matter of receptions. I see Evans as getting the bulk of receptions in Buffalo, but I see the ball more spread around in Detroit. Perhaps I don't want to give up on Charles Rogers and Mike Williams, and perhaps I'm giving too much credit to Scotty Vines...but, either way, I have Roy Williams projected at 15 receptions fewer than Evans because there seem to be more viable receivers in Detroit.
 
I'm sure the theory is that they will throw for X # of yards and they have to go to someone.  He's the best available wr so he will get the lionshare of the yards/td's

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That same theory was used for Peerless Price's production in 2003 I think it was. He had 1200 & 9 and it had to go SOMEWHERE. As it turns out, the Bills passing stats decreased almost exactly the amount that Price had put up the year before.One potentially key difference was that the Bills were near top of the league in every passing stat that year, so a big collapse with the loss of Price wasn't a huge stretch. Last year, the Bills were near the bottom of the league in every passing stat so they don't really have much more to go down.

I think some of Moulds production should go to Evans, but if none if it does, and it just gets spread out over the rest of the other WRs/TEs that shouldn't be a totally unexpected outcome.

I'm neutral on Evans.

It pretty much comes down to whether or not you think Evans can be a Santana Moss/Steve Smith/Joey Galloway "I account for damn near the entire passing offense, have no other receiving threats around me and I STILL get it done."

If the answer is yes, you can be high on Evans.

If not, you are down on him.

 
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On a horrible offensive team, in his first two years he gets

96 catches 1,580 yards and 16 TDs.

#1 WR is now gone. To me it's his TDs that matter. AJ had more yards/catches, far fewer TDs. In his best 4 games, Evans has had 3 tds, 2 tds, 2 tds 2 tds. The guy is a big play WR. On a garbage offense.

Even with Lossman, he'll get 60-80 catches. A lock for 1,000 yards. And I don't see his TDs dropping. He averaged 8 as the #2, so he should get 8-10 again.

And if the QB play improved at all, Evans will get most of that production.

If you look at Moose when SS went down, Driver when Walker went down. (and no real #2 behind them) Someone will get the production. Bills QBs won't throw for 6 tds all year. Someone is gonna get the yards and TDs. (yes Favre/Delhomme are better QBs, which is why I don't rank Evans in the top 12)

And.... *drumroll*....

He's entering his 3rd year! For whoever believe in that theory. :hophead:

 
On a horrible offensive team, in his first two years he gets

Even with Lossman, he'll get 60-80 catches. A lock for 1,000 yards. And I don't see his TDs dropping. He averaged 8 as the #2, so he should get 8-10 again.

And if the QB play improved at all, Evans will get most of that production.

If you look at Moose when SS went down, Driver when Walker went down. (and no real #2 behind them) Someone will get the production. Bills QBs won't throw for 6 tds all year. Someone is gonna get the yards and TDs. (yes Favre/Delhomme are better QBs, which is why I don't rank Evans in the top 12)

And.... *drumroll*....

He's entering his 3rd year! For whoever believe in that theory.  :hophead:

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Please pass me whatever it is you are smoking.Lock for 1,000 yards on that offense is a stretch.

8 TD's as a lock ? What about him moving to the #1 WR and having tougher coverage and more double teams?

SS and Driver both have far better QB's than Evans does. The comparison doesn't even make sense.

Maybe no one gets Moulds yards because they can't pass. Moulds as the #1 WR on the team only finished as the #28 WR in the league last year.... I'd say you'd have to have an improvement in the overall Bills offense to have their new #1 WR move higher than 28 and I just don't see that.

:no:

 
I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year.  He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

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I understand where you are coming from, and you may well be right. I do think it's possible however.Eli Manning in his first year as a starter was even worse than Losman. Burress moved to the Giants and became the number one receiver. I wouldn't bet on it, but Losman could improve significantly and Evans could see a spike in his numbers as a result. Unlike Burress, he is playing on the same team as when he was the WR2.

 
On a horrible offensive team, in his first two years he gets

Even with Lossman, he'll get 60-80 catches. A lock for 1,000 yards. And I don't see his TDs dropping. He averaged 8 as the #2, so he should get 8-10 again.

And if the QB play improved at all, Evans will get most of that production.

If you look at Moose when SS went down, Driver when Walker went down. (and no real #2 behind them) Someone will get the production. Bills QBs won't throw for 6 tds all year. Someone is gonna get the yards and TDs. (yes Favre/Delhomme are better QBs, which is why I don't rank Evans in the top 12)

And.... *drumroll*....

He's entering his 3rd year! For whoever believe in that theory.  :hophead:

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Please pass me whatever it is you are smoking.Lock for 1,000 yards on that offense is a stretch.

8 TD's as a lock ? What about him moving to the #1 WR and having tougher coverage and more double teams?

SS and Driver both have far better QB's than Evans does. The comparison doesn't even make sense.

Maybe no one gets Moulds yards because they can't pass. Moulds as the #1 WR on the team only finished as the #28 WR in the league last year.... I'd say you'd have to have an improvement in the overall Bills offense to have their new #1 WR move higher than 28 and I just don't see that.

:no:

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:goodposting:
 
Evans has 1/2 the equation ... opportunity. Some WRs can have all the talent in the world but never get the opportunity.

Him having the chance instantly bumps his rankings.

 
As mentioned above, he does score his fair share of TD's. I don't see him catching anything less than 7 TD's this year.

 
I'm a Lee Evans guy, but I share your concern regarding:

- The Bills QB being potentially terrible again

- Inexperience being the #1 guy. Moulds drew the attention of defenses. Without Moulds, Evans will have a tougher road to hoe.

There have been players on both sides of the fence that have struggled and thrived when put into the #1 role.

Players who struggled have been mentioned already. Peerless Price, Burleson, Drew Bennett, etc.

Steve Smith, Donald Driver and Keenan McCardell are a few that come to mind that thrived when thrown into a #1 role after losing the team's previous go-to WR via free agency or injury.

I'll say this much.. Evans has all the talent needed to be a terrific WR, but my concern with him has nothing to do with his talent and mostly to do with the talent surrounding him.

 
I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year.  He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

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i initially ranked him at #14 but have since bumped him down to #30.thank you.

 
I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:hey: How much have you actually seen him play?

#2's that became #1

Terrell Owens (granted, a MUCH better offense)

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lol at comparing him to T.O.
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You're right, Evans was graded much higher coming out of college. Would have been a top 10 pick if not for an injury, while TO was a prospect.They aren't good comparisons, but Steve Smith or Santana Moss sure are.

 
Not speaking of Evans specifically but just generally WR#2 becoming WR#1 it seems to me that there is a pretty high failaur rate in living up to the promotion. Has anyone ever done a study on this? I think of guys like Peerless Price as mentioned before. I remember when I can't even think of his name but the Cowboys WR that was #2 to Irvin who was signed by another team to be their #1 guy and failed. It just seems to happen a lot. Maybe the switching teams to be #1 on a new team is more accurate. Does anyone have any data supporting success/failure for this? I do not.

 
I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year.  He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

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i initially ranked him at #14 but have since bumped him down to #30.thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:lmao: at JoeT's apprentice.
 
I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:hey: How much have you actually seen him play?

#2's that became #1

Terrell Owens (granted, a MUCH better offense)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
lol at comparing him to T.O.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're right, Evans was graded much higher coming out of college. Would have been a top 10 pick if not for an injury, while TO was a prospect.They aren't good comparisons, but Steve Smith or Santana Moss sure are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You put Evans into the offense Smith and Moss were in and have the same QB they had and I'd say you might be on to something.
 
Losman was terrible early in the year, was benched, and then played much better after replacing an injured Holcomb and leading the Bills to a win over the Chiefs.

From that Chiefs game up until the Patriots game in week 14, Losman was the QB for nearly 5 complete games. During that time period, Evans had 21 rec for 380 yards and 5 TDs.

Obviously, it is a very limited sample and I'm not suggesting we read too much into it, but those numbers prorated over a full season would be: 67 rec, 1216 yards, and 16 TDs.

:excited:

Losman winning the QB job would be the best thing for Evans.

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Who will be the #2, Roscoe Parrish or Josh Reed?
 
I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:hey: How much have you actually seen him play?

#2's that became #1

Terrell Owens (granted, a MUCH better offense)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
lol at comparing him to T.O.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're right, Evans was graded much higher coming out of college. Would have been a top 10 pick if not for an injury, while TO was a prospect.They aren't good comparisons, but Steve Smith or Santana Moss sure are.

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You put Evans into the offense Smith and Moss were in and have the same QB they had and I'd say you might be on to something.
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Fair enough.2003: 74 1105 10

Jets ranked #23 in scoring, #21 in yardage.

ETA: I guess Pennington was a complete stud.

 
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I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:hey: How much have you actually seen him play?

#2's that became #1

Terrell Owens (granted, a MUCH better offense)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
lol at comparing him to T.O.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're right, Evans was graded much higher coming out of college. Would have been a top 10 pick if not for an injury, while TO was a prospect.They aren't good comparisons, but Steve Smith or Santana Moss sure are.

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You put Evans into the offense Smith and Moss were in and have the same QB they had and I'd say you might be on to something.
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Fair enough.2003: 74 1105 10

Jets ranked #23 in scoring, #21 in yardage.

ETA: I guess Pennington was a complete stud.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what did the Bills rank in scoring and yardage last year?And, I think Santana's 2003 season would be Lee Evans' ceiling. But, I dont think he will get there.

 
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I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year.  He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

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i initially ranked him at #14 but have since bumped him down to #30.thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
:lmao: at JoeT's apprentice.
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:confused: it was a testimonial.

 
You put Evans into the offense Smith and Moss were in and have the same QB they had and I'd say you might be on to something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fair enough.2003: 74 1105 10

Jets ranked #23 in scoring, #21 in yardage.

ETA: I guess Pennington was a complete stud.

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what did the Bills rank in scoring and yardage last year?And, I think Santana's 2003 season would be Lee Evans' ceiling. But, I dont think he will get there.

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24 / 29Is it so hard to believe that a new coach will help them reach 23 / 21?

You call it his ceiling, I'll call it his probable high side.

I don't quite see him reaching those stats either, but 65/1000/8 seemsabout right.

FWIW, that ranks somewhere around #20 in my leagues.

 
You put Evans into the offense Smith and Moss were in and have the same QB they had and I'd say you might be on to something.

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Fair enough.2003: 74 1105 10

Jets ranked #23 in scoring, #21 in yardage.

ETA: I guess Pennington was a complete stud.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what did the Bills rank in scoring and yardage last year?And, I think Santana's 2003 season would be Lee Evans' ceiling. But, I dont think he will get there.

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24 / 29Is it so hard to believe that a new coach will help them reach 23 / 21?

You call it his ceiling, I'll call it his probable high side.

I don't quite see him reaching those stats either, but 65/1000/8 seemsabout right.

FWIW, that ranks somewhere around #20 in my leagues.

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Not hard to believe the new staff will help them reach 23 / 21 at all. Its also not hard to believe they will do slightly worse under the new staff. your seemsabout right statline is in the same ballpark as mine btw.

 
I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?
I don't think you watch many Bills games? The guy is really fast with very good hands. The QB situation hurts him a lot as does no other option could lead him to be doubled. Finally guys going from #2 to #1 usually struggle. That being said he is very talented and the Bills will be behind a lot throwing so he could get a lot of garbage yards. He deserves a look, how high will be up to you.
 
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Since I felt like being a hijacker today, is there any rationale as to why the Bills emptied the vault to sign Peerless Price when most if not all other NFL teams would not even give him the time of day? Could he possibly be a real starter at this point or is he destined to be as productive as he was last year in DAL?

 
That being said he is very talented and the Bills will be behind a lot throwing so he could get a lot of garbage yards.
Being behind does not necessarily get you better passing or receiving stats. The Bills were behind a lot last year and ranked 26th in passing attempts and 29th in passing yards.
 
Since I felt like being a hijacker today, is there any rationale as to why the Bills emptied the vault to sign Peerless Price when most if not all other NFL teams would not even give him the time of day?  Could he possibly be a real starter at this point or is he destined to be as productive as he was last year in DAL?

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If Peerless Price had been on an auction block, I could've seen the Bills bidding several times in a row while everyone else just looked at each other :confused:
 
Not speaking of Evans specifically but just generally WR#2 becoming WR#1 it seems to me that there is a pretty high failaur rate in living up to the promotion.  Has anyone ever done a study on this?  I think of guys like Peerless Price as mentioned before.  I remember when I can't even think of his name but the Cowboys WR that was #2 to Irvin who was signed by another team to be their #1 guy and failed.  It just seems to happen a lot.  Maybe the switching teams to be #1 on a new team is more accurate.  Does anyone have any data supporting success/failure for this?  I do not.

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This is a very interesting question I did some quick research on and will do some more on tomorrow.But off the top of my head:

Since 1980, the leading receiver on a team in terms of yardage has left his team the following season 92 times.

Of those 92 times a #1 WR has left his team, here's a look at who has taken over as the #1 WR the following season.

31 times it was a player not on the team the prior year (or possibly on the team with zero catches, but I bet this is rare).

24 times the #2 WR from the prior year took over as the #1.

20 times the #3 WR from the prior year took over as the #1.

10 times the #4 WR from the prior year took over as the #1.

3 times the #5 WR from the prior year took over as the # 1.

4 times the #6 WR from the prior year took over as the #1 (a couple of these could be due to injury).

It may be interesting to look at all of the 24 players who went from the #2 to #1 WR to see if there are any common threads. It might also be interesting to look at all the #2 WR's who did not make it to #1 after the #1 left.

:thumbup:

 
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Well in 1999 Torry Holt of the Rams was the #2 WR with 52-788-6. The next year he became the #1 with 82-1635-6. Bruce was the #1 but he didn't leave.

In 1994, Flipper Anderson was the #1 WR for the Rams with 46-945-5. Bruce had 21-272-3 as the WR4. He then became the leader in 1995 with 119-1781-13 after Anderson left.

2001 was the year D.Jackson took over in Sea for a guy named Sean Dawkins. Dawkins was the WR1 in 2000 and Djax was the WR3 as a rookie. Djax became the WR1 and has been pretty good since.

So there's some recent examples and I didn't have to look hard.

 
I really haven't researched this yet, but I'm seeing Lee Evans upgrades a lot this year.  He finished as the #33 WR in PPR scoring leagues.... below Moulds who finished #28.

Why do people give #2 WR's such an upgrade when they are unproven as #1's?

I haven't seen Lee Evans do one thing to impress me.  He has a terrible QB and is on a bad offense.  How are some people putting him in the top 20?

Nate Burleson comes to mind here from '05 but maybe there are some other examples I'm missing.

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Peerless Price.
 
Since I felt like being a hijacker today, is there any rationale as to why the Bills emptied the vault to sign Peerless Price when most if not all other NFL teams would not even give him the time of day?  Could he possibly be a real starter at this point or is he destined to be as productive as he was last year in DAL?

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#1 Nobody knows why they felt the need to give him a contract that big. I can't imagine there was much demand for him.#2 Early reports have indicated that he is the favorite to start. But, he also missed the most recent voluntary minicamp.

#3 As for whether he can be productive, I'm very skeptical. I think it was a bad signing but hope I'm wrong.

 
Kind of a silly premise. Receivers almost never start off as #1 receivers as rookies. They work their way up to it. Some never get the shot to be #1, some get the shot and become great, some fail miserably, and some are in between. Depends primarily on the player's talent level.

So to say guys who become #1 always do this or that just doesn't work. You either like the guy and the rest of his situation or you don't.

Also, I habe NO idea how you can look at a guy like Evans and say nothing impresses you. He may or may not become a good #1 receiver, but to say you didn't see anything impressive just shows a lack of knowledge. A 16.5 YPC avg doesn't impress you? A 4.7 career YAC doesn't impress you? 1600 yards and 16 TDs in his 1st two season doesn't impress you? Watching hime totally BLOW BY solid cornerbacks doesn't impress you? More than half of his catches going for first downs doesn't impress you? How bout the fact the almost NEVER drops the ball? (5 drops on 167 targets)?

Over-rated? Maybe he is. But NOTHING about him is impressive? Yikes.

 

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