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I disagree. I know it is Favre.
Manning has already locked his place in the all time great QBs... he will NOT be forgotten even if he dies tomorrow in a car accident. That's hilarious.
Manning is in the era of high flying offense. An era where running backs are being diminished somewhat, and passing offenses are the norm. For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years. Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
He's in the top 5 at best right now. But as the poster mentioned, give another generation of QB's a chance to put Peyton's stats to shame in an increasingly aerial NFL, and Peyton's stats won't be nearly as impressive as they are now...and if he doesn't win another super bowl, it's very likely that in 20 years, he's not mentioned in anyone's top 5 QB's of all time.
Wow, the Manning hatred runs deep.... you can always tell when a player is GREAT - because he elicits such strong reactions.
the results here seem to contradict this statement.he's no Montana, but he's in the group right behind him with a lot of support for a #2 ranking.
Case in point here is that Shoob managed to put up the 6th highest all-time yardage total in NFL history this year. Matt Freaking Shaub. Regular season passing stats will not be the way any QB is measured long term. Maybe today when someone tries to project Manning versus players in prior eras, but as literally dozens of people destroy Manning's record(s) all he would have left would have been rings that he either will or won't earn the rest of his career.Manning is in the era of high flying offense. An era where running backs are being diminished somewhat, and passing offenses are the norm. For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years. Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
I have no idea how anyone could right now have Manning as the number 2 QB of all-time.
OK, now I'm getting confused..Peyton Haters, Is it stats or wins? Make up your minds...shader said:Manning is in the era of high flying offense. An era where running backs are being diminished somewhat, and passing offenses are the norm.
For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years.
Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.
Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
At best?shader said:He's in the top 5 at best right now. But as the poster mentioned, give another generation of QB's a chance to put Peyton's stats to shame in an increasingly aerial NFL, and Peyton's stats won't be nearly as impressive as they are now...and if he doesn't win another super bowl, it's very likely that in 20 years, he's not mentioned in anyone's top 5 QB's of all time.switz said:
Wow, the Manning hatred runs deep.... you can always tell when a player is GREAT - because he elicits such strong reactions.
Because we all know that all Manning has done in his career is passed for a lot of yards..culdeus said:Case in point here is that Shoob managed to put up the 6th highest all-time yardage total in NFL history this year. Matt Freaking Shaub. Regular season passing stats will not be the way any QB is measured long term. Maybe today when someone tries to project Manning versus players in prior eras, but as literally dozens of people destroy Manning's record(s) all he would have left would have been rings that he either will or won't earn the rest of his career.shader said:
Stats matter and yards aren't the only stats.. Plus, the fact that Manning was really the first to master the type off offense he runs from the field has already cemented him as a lock in all time great QB discussions...
And nobody has any idea how you could potentially rank him outside of top 5.. so I guess we're even..shader said:
It is a team effort. But when such a great QB has such a dropoff in playoff performance then you can't be too suprised when folks knock him. Some like their guys to "step up". And if it's a team effort, then also say that about the regular season. Don't say the Colts are doing so well because of him, but when they lose then blame the team....especially when you can point directly to the QB for a dip in production. Not saying you are doing this but a lot are.switz said:
Wow, the Manning hatred runs deep.... you can always tell when a player is GREAT - because he elicits such strong reactions.
OK, let me back it up and I'll try to be be more exact. I think in a hypothetical game Manning's 2007 Super Bowl team (his only championship winner) would have a pretty good chance to beat Montana's first Super Bowl team, (the '81/'82 team that got there via The Catch). But those other Montana lead Niner champions, '85, '89 and '90 would all dominate a team like the '07 Colts. That seems pretty obvious.
Its about not choking in big games! Hence the title of this thread!Is it possible all the people critisizing Manning, is doing it because a player built up to his status, should not make the big mistakes he did in the SB?OK, now I'm getting confused..Peyton Haters, Is it stats or wins? Make up your minds...shader said:Manning is in the era of high flying offense. An era where running backs are being diminished somewhat, and passing offenses are the norm.
For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years.
Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.
Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
I think his point is that EITHER would be nice, if you want to call him GOAT. The regular season numbers he's compiled over his career look great historically, because he's been at it as a full-time starter for a long time, and has done it all in the big-numbers passing era. But among his contemporaries...e.g. Brees...he's coming up short in both stats AND big wins.OK, now I'm getting confused..Peyton Haters, Is it stats or wins? Make up your minds...shader said:
For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years.
Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.
Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
Pretty sure they have the same amount of SB rings. Peyton has a better QB rating, 20, 000 more yards (although less per game), and 104 more TD's.I think his point is that EITHER would be nice, if you want to call him GOAT. The regular season numbers he's compiled over his career look great historically, because he's been at it as a full-time starter for a long time, and has done it all in the big-numbers passing era. But among his contemporaries...e.g. Brees...he's coming up short in both stats AND big wins.OK, now I'm getting confused..Peyton Haters, Is it stats or wins? Make up your minds...shader said:
For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years.
Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.
Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
Brees by his consistent play, 83.2 lowest rating in 6 playoff games with never more than 1 pick, and his elite play this year has so far accomplished more in the playoffs than Manning. He just hasn't had a bad playoff game. However, the gap in regular season success is huge right now and Brees will have a hard time catching up overall unless he continues to play well in the future playoffs.
I am by no means saying Brees is a better QB then Manning, but i just wonder what the talk would be like if Brees started his career in New Orleans with S. Payton as his head coach. There are also so many other things that the subjective observer takes into account other than the play of the QB. QBs with decent defenses that do get turnovers are going to make a QB look better. QBs with a dominant defense won't have the gaudy stats as a QB with absolutely no defense (Look at Brees last year). Also, I don't see how Manning can be blamed for some of his playoff loses. The play of the Colts defense and coaching has kept them from another SB championship.
Points scored in each of the Colts playoff losses with Manning1617014 318241717I don't think you can argue that the Colts defense has cost them titles. Especially since the Colts defense carried the Colts to their first title with the exception of a good offensive game versus the Patriots.vs KC - 8 pa 151 yavs BAL - 6 pa 256 ya vs NE - 34 pa 325 ya - 1 td by NE defensevs CHI - 17 pa 276 ya - 1 td by CHI special teams - 1 td by Colts defense
Yes, but with a better defense or coaching the Colts do not lose this game against the Saints and a lot of folks around here would have a different opinion on Payton's performance in the playoffs.
That's pretty much the argument in a nutshell. If the game had never gotten close, then Manning probably wouldn't have made mistakes. But pinning this loss on the Colts D is silly. Manning led the team to 17 points (and Addai was a big part of the points they did score). He also threw a pick six. So basically, if the Colts D had held the Saints to 9 or fewer points, then the pick 6 wouldn't have mattered, and the Colts still would have won. Is it the defense's fault that they couldn't hold the Saints to 9 or fewer points, or Manning's fault for throwing the pick six?ATC1 said:
Again, you're comparing career stats that are incomparable. Peyton's been at it longer than Brees, so of course his CAREER numbers are "better." But looking at the year-to-year snapshots, he is consistently coming out on the short end of every measurable stick. This was an "MVP" year for Manning. Yet, he was behind Brees statistically, and behind him in big wins. (And over the stretch of Manning's whole career, he has nothing to match Brees's performance on Sunday in the "big wins where he played well in the win" department.) If we take that same comparison over the stretch of Brees's entire productive era? Same thing. Manning doesn't match up. What about over Brady's career? Same thing. Manning doesn't match up. Warner? How deep does it go?The longer Peyton continues, the more and more he looks like a compiler, and the less and less he looks like the elite team leader who wills his team to titles and performs his best on the biggest stages.fissure man said:Pretty sure they have the same amount of SB rings. Peyton has a better QB rating, 20, 000 more yards (although less per game), and 104 more TD's.Happy Ragnarok said:I think his point is that EITHER would be nice, if you want to call him GOAT. The regular season numbers he's compiled over his career look great historically, because he's been at it as a full-time starter for a long time, and has done it all in the big-numbers passing era. But among his contemporaries...e.g. Brees...he's coming up short in both stats AND big wins.Carolina Hustler said:OK, now I'm getting confused..Peyton Haters, Is it stats or wins? Make up your minds...shader said:
For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years.
Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.
Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
He led his team to 17 points and threw a pick 6 in which the DB ran straight ahead for the score. If they had better defense or coaching, Manning probably would have had a chance to win the game in the end. He instead had a chance to tie and messed up. You do know that the defense held the Saints to 24 points including a goal line stand and the Saints were the best offense in the league this year. It was an even game until the pick 6.ATC1 said:
It's the defense and special teams (Payton has no control over ST either) that only gave Manning 8 possessions in the entire game. Brees controlled the ball, while the Saints defense was giving the Colts the running lanes. But still Manning was able to move the ball through the air. Also, in my post I mention coaching as well. The coaches decision to kick a 51 yard FG instead of either pinning the Saints deep. They would of had a better shot at just going for it with the ball in Peyton's hand.
Sorry, Manning overall has been the better regular season QB.
GREAT posting...People love to ignore that winning a game is a TEAM effort.Career QB Rating Y/A AY/A ANY/AManning 95.2 7.7 7.5 7.1 Brees 91.9 7.4 7.1 6.8And a great play by Porter. Just goes to show you how one play can make or break the subjectivity of a guys career. he goes from possibly the greatest QB ever to the playoff choker.
IMO, he had no chance to become the greatest QB ever no matter what happened in that game. Manning called the same route combination that he had run on a earlier 3 down with a similar distance. As soon as Porter saw the Collie slant, he exploded to cut off the earlier ran route. Manning rushed his defensive read and quickly threw it right at the charging Porter. Wayne was beat on the route although I do think he could have made an attempt to break the pass up and no doubt Porter made a great play. But that was the second occasion on that drive that Manning threw the ball into the hands of the defender and he deserves a significant portion of the blame on that play.If he would have led the Colts to victory, he would have for the first time played well enough to carry his team to a title. Never before had he played multiple playoff games and played well in each game. That would have changed his legacy a lot but still put him no where near a Montana who matched his regular season brilliance with repeated post season brilliance. IMO, the top echelon of quarterbacks right now is Montana and Graham. A lot of players can make a case for #3 right now and Manning is one of them. His case would be much stronger if he didn't fail in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.
He is definitely one of the greatest QB to play the game. I just have a hard time saying he is THE best when he has been able to lead teams with great regular season records to only one championship. Many people here think that winning championships are not important when evaluating a QB. I disagree, no one is right or wrong -- it is just differing opinions.
Porter made a great play. It was a bad decision by Manning. Bill Walsh>Caldwell/Dungy1989 SF defense = 3rd in scoring defense, 4th in YPG2006 Colts defense = 23 in scoring defense, 21 in YPG
You can't blame the coaches for the field goal/punt/go for it decision, which is one of the closest decisions in the game. It's not more their fault than it is Manning's that the drive sputtered in the first place. In fact, the coaches had just give Manning the opportunity to convert a fourth and two in that same drive. Then they started with a two yard run that put them at 48 yard field goal distance. Then he threw a pass for a 3 yard loss, and misfired on the next pass, and it was 4th and 11, too close to punt, and too far to go for it. If Manning doesn't throw twice for -3 yards, maybe they make that field goal, or go for it again. You can't blame the coaches for that.
Don't bring regular season stats into a postseason party.2006 Colts Playoff Defensevs KC - 8 pa 151 yavs BAL - 6 pa 256 yavs NE - 34 pa 325 ya - 1 td by NE defensevs CHI - 17 pa 276 ya - 1 td by CHI special teams - 1 td by Colts defenseSo, the Colts defense allowed 252 ypg and the defense/special teams allowed 14.5 ppg while scoring a TD of their own.1989 49ers Playoff Defensevs MIN - 13 pa 424 ya - 1 td by SF defensevs LA - 3 pa 167 yavs CIN - 16 pa 250 ya - 1 td by CIN special teamsSo, the 49ers defense allowed 280 ypg and the def/st allowed 10.7 ppg while scoring a TD of their own.You know and I know that the 2006 Colts defense was a different animal in the playoffs with Sanders and Booger McFarland playing at an All Pro level. They played just about as well as the 1989 49ers defense allowed 28 less yards per game and 3.8 more points per game.How about Montana versus Manning?Manning completed 63%, averaged 258 ypg, threw 3 touchdowns and 7 picks. His QB ratings: 71, 39, 79, 81Montana completed 78%, averaged 266 ypg, threw 11 touchdowns and 0 picks. His QB ratings: 142, 125, 147
Sorry, please post the rule ahead of time next time so we know to follow them.
He also led the NE to a go ahead TD against Carolina with less than 3 minutes to go in the game- which is a similar situation to Manning.No one wants to remember that. Carolina tied with 1:08 remaining and NE scored again- this time a field goal.Brady has been in four SB games. In two, he was never behind in the 4th quarter. In the other 2, he led the Patriots to go ahead TD's with less than three minutes left in the game. So Brady can comfortably be place in this conversation.Super Bowl 42 - Brady has an 80 yard drive resulting in a TD to put the Pats up by 4 with 2:42 left. Too bad their D crumbled.Had me until Brady. Colts needed more than a FG.You had me until you got to Warner...He didn't take it over and win it, either.You aren't necessarily to blame for a loss if you don't rise up and take the Super Bowl over on the strength of your own talent and leadership. But you aren't the GOAT, either. Montana comes through there. Brady comes through there. Warner comes through there. Manning didn't. Again.
This article captures it perfectly:> There's 2:24 left in the Super Bowl and the Colts are down by seven and driving. They're faced with a third and five. Manning drops back and throws an ill-advised inaccurate pass to a NOT-AT-ALL-OPEN Reggie Wayne (while Austin Collie was almost so open over the middle that he could have used a pair of binoculars to spot the nearest Saint DB). Tracy Porter for the Saints picks it off and goes 74 yards to the house. Saints 31, Colts 17. And as the freaky puppet says in the Saw movies... GAME OVER.
The point was that great defenses don't always play well in a short postseason run and sometimes average defenses raise their play. Sometimes a sure Hall of Fame regular season QB plays like an average QB in the playoffs. In the end, it doesn't matter how good the 89 49ers defense was in the regular season or how bad the 06 Colts defense was in the regular season when you are discussing the post season success of the quarterbacks of those teams. It only matters how well everybody played in that postseason.
I am curious about something:It looks like you're a Bears fan.... what do you think of the effect of the weather on the Bears' defensive performance vs the Colts in the 2006 Super Bowl. That seems to me to have negated the 'perfect condition', neutral-field side of the equation and lessens Peyton Manning's Super Bowl win somewhat. Yes, the Bears had a very good defense that year, but they seemed negated by the elements, the passing game was helped, and Rex Grossman was no championship quality caliber QB (heck he's not even starting caliber anymore). If any SB win could be discounted (to some or any degree), besides maybe Super Bowl V and a couple others, that would be it.
Honestly, it is hard for me to be objective in my opinion of that Super Bowl. I never watched it a second time. The Bears were missing 2 of their top 4 defenders (Mike Brown, Tommy Harris) who would have made a tremendous difference in that particular game. The Colts got a cheap one when Danieal Manning forgot where he was on the field on the Wayne touchdown. Aside from that the Bears defense played really well early forcing a couple turnovers, but the Colts/Manning adjusted, threw the ball to Addai on checkdowns, and ran the ball. The Bears continued to focus on Harrison, Wayne, etc... and the Colts continued to move the ball. At that point, it was just the waiting for Grossman to mess up, which he did and game over. I don't think Manning's winning that game should be lessened because he adjusted his game to defeat a very good defense who was determined to take away the deeper passes.
Bad weather = advantage to defense.... I really can't believe the stuff I'm reading at this point
Yeah. Except you're wrong here.
Wait, so it is just a coincidence that during Manning's career 3 of the 5 2000 yards rushers happened to play when he did...that is diminished rushing?? Plus, just because one guy does not tote the rock exclusively mean that rushing is down (see the Jets this year). Guy is sick...just plain cerebral out there. Since his numbers are "typical of the era", I would a guy that passes for 27+ TDs on a yearly basis asa Jets fan since we have had just one season like that in the last 20 years...Manning is in the era of high flying offense. An era where running backs are being diminished somewhat, and passing offenses are the norm. For all the talk about Peyton being the best regular season QB, Drew Brees has thrown for more yards than Peyton in 3 of the last 4 years. Aaron Rodgers is probably about to start a run of stats that will trump Manning's best years.Peyton's stats will look impressive when he retires. But in 20 years will they? Probably not as much. And if he only has 1 super bowl ring, there is no chance anyone will think of him as the best QB of alltime in 20 years.
