The Buffalo Bills (1 Viewer)

[Aaron Rudnicki]

We can debate whether or not Flutie's stats were pretty. What I do not understand is why people are so critical when all he did was win. He was 38 wins and 28 losses in his career. That includes a 2001 Chargers season in which he was credited with a 5-11 record.The best parallel I could make to today's game would be Oakland's Gradkowski. Is he pretty? No. Is he great? No. Does his team perform better when he is on the field? Yes.

it's a team game. one player doesn't win or lose on his own. and in 1999, the team often won DESPITE him rather than BECAUSE of him. that's how good the defense was. Flutie was along for the ride during most of that season.I'm not talking about his play in 1998 b/c he was awesome then, and he rebounded reasonably well in 2000. But in 1999, he sucked and should have been benched much earlier. The stats may not tell the full story of how bad he was that year, but many Bills fans remember. Wade Phillips sucked as a head coach. He often gets unfairly ripped for the decision to bench Flutie, even though it was one of the few good ones he made during his time in Buffalo.

 

[PhilLynott]

We can debate whether or not Flutie's stats were pretty. What I do not understand is why people are so critical when all he did was win. He was 38 wins and 28 losses in his career. That includes a 2001 Chargers season in which he was credited with a 5-11 record.The best parallel I could make to today's game would be Oakland's Gradkowski. Is he pretty? No. Is he great? No. Does his team perform better when he is on the field? Yes.

it's a team game. one player doesn't win or lose on his own. and in 1999, the team often won DESPITE him rather than BECAUSE of him. that's how good the defense was.I'm not talking about his play in 1998 b/c he was awesome then, and he rebounded reasonably well in 2000. But in 1999, he sucked and should have been benched much earlier honestly.

That is where it will stand because we will have to agree to disagree.To regain the thread, the Bills scouting has been terrible and the cut rate head coaching hasn't helped. The players that have been brought in are questionable at best, and the coaching prospects are cut rate. The defense was strong last year so what happens, let Fewell walk. Is he head coach material? I think that he might be able to at least match 0-5.

 

[dharmapunk]

Hell, IMO if it weren't for the Music City Miracle they would have been in the Superbowl in 99 instead of the Titans (and would have matched up better against the Rams too). They had a devastating defense that year (#1 in the NFL) and a good offense with Flutie and Moulds.

This is all speculative, but if it weren't for the Music City Miracle I believe that the Jaguars would have been Super Bowl Bound. They were 14-2, had the #6 offense and the #1 defense in the league that year. Their 2 losses, and eventually their third and final loss, were to the Titans. They were dominant in 1999, except against the Titans.

Jags ranked 1st in pts allowed while the Bills ranked 2nd.Jags ranked 4th in yards allowed while the Bills ranked 1st.The Bills offense wasn't that good, but they should have beaten Tennessee on the road at least. Wade deserves credit for pulling Flutie, who could barely throw 15 yards by the end of the season.

Sorry... credit?!? That decision was a complete joke. Johnson won a completely meaningless game in the final week of the season to "justify" the change. Did you seriously go into that Titans game thinking, "Rob Johnson is our starter now - this is a good idea"? The early sack-fumble-safety should have quickly snapped you back to reality that Johnson is a clown and not only was he horrendous in his own right, the whole team played worse when he was in there. 6 sacks and a 10-22-131 passing line later... has Flutie ever taken 6 sacks?... the Bills would not have even been in position to require a late FG for just a 1 point lead at the end. The game would have been out of reach for the Titans.Wade or whoever pushed for Johnson are as much to blame for that loss as the special teams failure that has gone down in infamy.BTW, is this the *** OFFICIAL *** Bills thread? Wish we didn't have a Pats homer start it.

benching Flutie was one of the best coaching moves in Bills history. Flutie was awful that year and the defense carried them. Johnson wasn't a long-term answer either, but he should have won a very tough road game in the playoffs against one of the best teams in the league.Flutie was great the year before, but not in 1999.In the wind that day, I don't think Flutie could have thrown the ball much more than 15 yards honestly. His arm looked dead from around the Baltimore game on.

Rud is right. The defense and running game carried that team. Flutie had a terrible run of about 10 games, which is why Philips played Rob Johnson against the Colts' backups in week 17 (which led to Johnson starting the Titans game). I never thought that was a bad decision by Phillips. Like I said, Wade is good at evaluating talent. He just sucks at motivation and game management.

 

[OC Zed]

At least no one had any type of expectations when the best coach they could get was Chan Gailey. The guy has had zero success everywhere he has gone. How was he qualified to get the job over Perry Fuel <SP?> There were no better candidates out there than this retread?

I guess Ralph Wilson wanted a guy his own age to play with...so he hired Gailey.

X

While Gailey has not won any SuperBowls, he did take the Cowboys to the playoffs every year in his 3-year tenure (a feat that Bills and Cowboys fans would certainly not take for granted today). And he also had modest success at Georgia Tech (6 winning seasons in his 6-year tenure, but no BCS bowls). He was hired for three primary reasons: (1) he had previous head coaching experience (the downfall of Greg Williams and Mike Mularky); (2) he's had a good track record in terms of offensive success (the Bills downfall since 1996); and (3) he's show a good ability at maximizing results from minimal talent across different schemes (e.g., Kordell Stewart, Thigpen, etc.).

The first two factors made him a strong edge over Fewell (Fewell showed very little grasp of the offense last season). And the third factor really distinguished himself from all other candidates.

I'm not saying Gailey will pan out. I am saying that there were logical reasons why he received the job.

You forgot the fourth primary reason (which is really the first): He came cheap.

This isn't a fair criticism. Wilson was willing to pay big $$$$ to one of the big name unemployed coaches (Shanahan, Cowher particularly), but none of them would bite.

This is pure non-sense- just a lot of spin put out there by the PR masters at OBD.

In Buffalo, just saying you want to hire a big name coach is enough to sell tickets to the gullible Bills fan

- no need to actually spend the money

if Ralph was so adamant about spending big bucks to turn around the program, why did he not even go outsdie the building to interview a GM candidate.

He picked Buddy Nix out of retirement over Modrak and Guy- both of whom should have been fired as talent evaluators years ago.

You accuse the Bills front office of complete incompetence, but somehow you think they are talented enough to fabricate multiple stories by the most respected pro football journalists regarding the head coaching search?

Come on.

I understand being discontent... 10 years of awful football will do it to you. But it would be nice if you guys would take your blinders off and look at objective facts. The "Wilson is cheap" argument doesn't fly no matter how convenient you want to make it. He has been willing to spend the money on front office and player talent. The problem has been his decisions on who the money has been spent on.

 

[OC Zed]

We can debate whether or not Flutie's stats were pretty. What I do not understand is why people are so critical when all he did was win. He was 38 wins and 28 losses in his career. That includes a 2001 Chargers season in which he was credited with a 5-11 record.The best parallel I could make to today's game would be Oakland's Gradkowski. Is he pretty? No. Is he great? No. Does his team perform better when he is on the field? Yes.

it's a team game. one player doesn't win or lose on his own. and in 1999, the team often won DESPITE him rather than BECAUSE of him. that's how good the defense was. Flutie was along for the ride during most of that season.I'm not talking about his play in 1998 b/c he was awesome then, and he rebounded reasonably well in 2000. But in 1999, he sucked and should have been benched much earlier. The stats may not tell the full story of how bad he was that year, but many Bills fans remember. Wade Phillips sucked as a head coach. He often gets unfairly ripped for the decision to bench Flutie, even though it was one of the few good ones he made during his time in Buffalo.

I agree with all of this. I wanted to root for Johnson and I didn't think he deserved the personal vilification, but I can acknowledge that he never panned out as a starting quarterback. That, however, doesn't mean that he wasn't a better quarterback than Flutie at that point in the season. As has been pointed out in this thread, the Bills were a critically flawed team heading into the playoffs under Flutie and did not have a credible shot to win the Superbowl with him playing. I have no problem with the Bills benching Flutie and rolling the dice with Johnson.

 

[Obie Wan]

This is pure non-sense-

just a lot of spin put out there by the PR masters at OBD.

In Buffalo, just saying you want to hire a big name coach is enough to sell tickets to the gullible Bills fan

- no need to actually spend the money

if Ralph was so adamant about spending big bucks to turn around the program, why did he not even go outsdie the building to interview a GM candidate.

He picked Buddy Nix out of retirement over Modrak and Guy- both of whom should have been fired as talent evaluators years ago.



You accuse the Bills front office of complete incompetence, but somehow you think they are talented enough to fabricate multiple stories by the most respected pro football journalists regarding the head coaching search?

Come on.

I understand being discontent... 10 years of awful football will do it to you. But it would be nice if you guys would take your blinders off and look at objective facts. The "Wilson is cheap" argument doesn't fly no matter how convenient you want to make it. He has been willing to spend the money on front office and player talent. The problem has been his decisions on who the money has been spent on.

obviously you have not followed the Bills very closely

in 50 years of ownership, Ralph has gone to the market and hired a name coach for big money exactly once.

He was forced to hire Knox because attendance had plunged to the 20-30,000 range

He went to the market exactly once to hire a big name in Donahoe.

Polian was a total unknown and promoted internally to the GM position. He brought in Marv who was claim to fame at that point was running the single wing at KC.

Ralph has spent money on players because he was forced to by the CBA - but that money was spent stupidly in many cases. - the Kelsay extension another perfect example of vastly overpaying mediocre talent.

It is laughable to claim that Ralph has spent serious money on the front office and coaching.

and for your initial statement - the Bills management and ownership is totally inept at building a quality product on the field.

However, their PR dept is extremely adept at playing the fans to create a money making machine for Ralph. The key players in that front office that have been around forever are all financial types who have earned their keep by making profitability a far bigger priority than a quality product on the field.

 

[OC Zed]

obviously you have not followed the Bills very closelyin 50 years of ownership, Ralph has gone to the market and hired a name coach for big money exactly once.He was forced to hire Knox because attendance had plunged to the 20-30,000 range He went to the market exactly once to hire a big name in Donahoe.Polian was a total unknown and promoted internally to the GM position. He brought in Marv who was claim to fame at that point was running the single wing at KC. Ralph has spent money on players because he was forced to by the CBA - but that money was spent stupidly in many cases. - the Kelsay extension another perfect example of vastly overpaying mediocre talent. It is laughable to claim that Ralph has spent serious money on the front office and coaching.and for your initial statement - the Bills management and ownership is totally inept at building a quality product on the field.However, their PR dept is extremely adept at playing the fans to create a money making machine for Ralph. The key players in that front office that have been around forever are all financial types who have earned their keep by making profitability a far bigger priority than a quality product on the field.

Again, if the Bills were lying about offering big money to Shanahan and Cowher, don't you think that those coaches would have refuted those stories immediately? PR guys can't spin outright lies involving people outside of the organization. Those coaches didn't the Bills offers to provide any additional leverage for themselves - they would get their huge contract wherever they wanted it. The money was on the table for those guys and no credible source, aside from the riff-raff here, has been able to contradict that.I've never said that Wilson has spent liberally (like Jerry Jones, Daniel Snyder, etc.). I said he has been willing to spend the money when he thinks it make sense. Wilson wasn't forced to keep those Superbowl teams together for an entire decade. He wasn't forced to spend money on Donahoe and all of the free agents signed in the early part of the decade, he wasn't forced to give Schobel and Kelsay huge extensions, give TO his 1-year overpayment, etc. There is a huge difference between being cheap and being a bad decision maker.

 

[GroveDiesel]

It is laughable to claim that Ralph has spent serious money on the front office and coaching.

The Bills employ 15 scouts. That's more than any other team in the league. To argue that Ralph Wilson won't spend money is crazy. The problem is with poor decision making, not cheapness. If he had given Shannahan complete control, Mike would be pulling in $10M a year in Buffalo right now.

 

[Texasmouth]

At least no one had any type of expectations when the best coach they could get was Chan Gailey. The guy has had zero success everywhere he has gone. How was he qualified to get the job over Perry Fuel <SP?> There were no better candidates out there than this retread?

I guess Ralph Wilson wanted a guy his own age to play with...so he hired Gailey.

X

While Gailey has not won any SuperBowls, he did take the Cowboys to the playoffs every year in his 3-year tenure (a feat that Bills and Cowboys fans would certainly not take for granted today). And he also had modest success at Georgia Tech (6 winning seasons in his 6-year tenure, but no BCS bowls). He was hired for three primary reasons: (1) he had previous head coaching experience (the downfall of Greg Williams and Mike Mularky); (2) he's had a good track record in terms of offensive success (the Bills downfall since 1996); and (3) he's show a good ability at maximizing results from minimal talent across different schemes (e.g., Kordell Stewart, Thigpen, etc.).

The first two factors made him a strong edge over Fewell (Fewell showed very little grasp of the offense last season). And the third factor really distinguished himself from all other candidates.

I'm not saying Gailey will pan out. I am saying that there were logical reasons why he received the job.

Gailey's Cowboys won the NFC East in 1998, and made the playoffs under his two years at the reins, although they failed to win a playoff game. Pretty dubious for a decade-old distinction.Gailey inherited a Chiefs offense that ranked at the bottom of the league in almost every category the previous season.[14] He was demoted after three pre-season games in 2009 and relieved of play-calling duties by head coach Todd Haley.[15] Gailey was out of football in 2009.

In between those awesome performances he managed to saddle Ga. Tech with the worst QB I have ever seen remain a four-year starter. Dude couldn't win in the ACC with Calvin Johnson.

Terrible coach and a terrible hire.

The original comment was that Gailey had zero success. Making the playoffs in consecutive years is an achievement itself that most franchises would be very pleased with. And did he improve the Chiefs' offense while he was there? Ya, absolutely... and with minimal talent. His firing had more to do with a personality/philosophy clash with Haley. That happens all of the time around the league.

I am still laughing that someone would give any credit to Chan Gailey for the Cowboys winning while he was there. That team was still living off of the success of Jimmy Johnson. Gailey did nothing for the success of that team. Gailey did nothing for the success of Kordell Stewart either. He was a freak of nature at the time and no one could game plan against him. Had nothing to do with Gailey in my opinion.

Gailey had mediocre at best success in college too. Even if it was moderate success, he has no business running an NFL team. There are about 10 guys I can think of that I would take over him in a heart beat, three of them are in the UFL. Dennis Green, Jim Fassel and Brian Billick would all be better candidates for this team.

 

[Steve Tasker]

This argument is laughable. Hey, for those supporting the Johnson decision because Flutie was bad, the point is was Johnson better than Flutie? No, he absolutely was not a better QB which he proved over and over again in his career, both before this game and after.The head coach admits he made a mistake starting the wrong QB, yet others still want to support that decision :X You got your choice of starting QB after that. That sure worked out well.

I'm going to throw my two cents in here and completely disagree with you (along with all the other posters in here). Starting Rob Johnson in that Tennessee game was absolutely the right move, and IMO, he played one of the best, if not the best, game that he ever played in a Bills uniform in that game. Johnson played well enough to win, and got screwed by the special teams.Was he going to be a legit NFL starting QB? No, clearly not....he was pretty bad. But he played as well as he possibly could in that game, and I have no doubts that he played better than anything Flutie could've offered that day.

 

[Das Boot]

Bills are finally looking good for a change today.

Maybe things are looking up.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Maybe this should be another thread, but -When Ralph dies, it's likely the new owners will move the team. If the Bills move, will you -1. Keep being a fan2. Change teams? If so, to who?

I don't live in Buffalo or have any ties to the WNY area, so for me personally, it would just depend on who the new ownership is and where they relocate to. If they moved to Toronto I would almost certainly abandon them. I'm not sure what team I would "switch" to. Probably I'd take a few years off fan-dom and just see what happens. I have a really hard time imagining that I could just say "Okay, from now on I'm going to be a Colts fan" just like that. I grew up in Indiana so it wouldn't be irrational, but I don't think you can force that sort of thing either.

I've thought about this, probably more than I should. I say that I'll be a Steelers fan, usually as a joke, but I doubt I'll stick with it.If they move to Toronto, I'll stay a Bills fan. If they move like 1,000 miles away, I'll more likely stop following the NFL. I struggle to follow most sports teams if they're not nearby and I don't see coverage on the news, etc. That's why I don't follow the MLB or NBA.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Don't look now, but only 2 teams in the AFC have better records than Buffalo's 4-2 mark over the last 6 games.

Yes, their level of competition has certainly dropped over that chunk of their schedule, but they still went out and won the games. Not bad for a team that most pegged as the worst team ins the league before the season started and most of the way through it.

And they certainly gave Baltimore, KC, Chicago and Pittsburgh all they could handle. With guys like Fitzpatrick, Johnson, Nelson, Williams, Moats and the O-line all vastly improving, this could be a team moving in the right direction.

Chan Gailey deserves a lot of credit for making this team competitive. There have been a LOT of stomach punch games this season, but with such low expectations coming into the season, they've certainly provided a lot of exciting games.

 

[SugarNuts]

Don't look now, but only 2 teams in the AFC have better records than Buffalo's 4-2 mark over the last 6 games.Yes, their level of competition has certainly dropped over that chunk of their schedule, but they still went out and won the games. Not bad for a team that most pegged as the worst team ins the league before the season started and most of the way through it.And they certainly gave Baltimore, KC, Chicago and Pittsburgh all they could handle. With guys like Fitzpatrick, Johnson, Nelson, Williams, Moats and the O-line all vastly improving, this could be a team moving in the right direction.Chan Gailey deserves a lot of credit for making this team competitive. There have been a LOT of stomach punch games this season, but with such low expectations coming into the season, they've certainly provided a lot of exciting games.

Very well said. I pegged them at about 5 wins this year. I think Fitz has earned the right to start, so Im hoping they draft OL next year first.

 

[theglorydays]

Don't look now, but only 2 teams in the AFC have better records than Buffalo's 4-2 mark over the last 6 games.Yes, their level of competition has certainly dropped over that chunk of their schedule, but they still went out and won the games. Not bad for a team that most pegged as the worst team ins the league before the season started and most of the way through it.And they certainly gave Baltimore, KC, Chicago and Pittsburgh all they could handle. With guys like Fitzpatrick, Johnson, Nelson, Williams, Moats and the O-line all vastly improving, this could be a team moving in the right direction.Chan Gailey deserves a lot of credit for making this team competitive. There have been a LOT of stomach punch games this season, but with such low expectations coming into the season, they've certainly provided a lot of exciting games.

Very well said. I pegged them at about 5 wins this year. I think Fitz has earned the right to start, so Im hoping they draft OL next year first.

I don't think we can pass up a franchise quarterback if he's sitting there when we draft. I think the Bills are currently sitting at pick 6, so it is highly unlikely that Luck will be there but if he is he has to be the pick.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Don't look now, but only 2 teams in the AFC have better records than Buffalo's 4-2 mark over the last 6 games.Yes, their level of competition has certainly dropped over that chunk of their schedule, but they still went out and won the games. Not bad for a team that most pegged as the worst team ins the league before the season started and most of the way through it.And they certainly gave Baltimore, KC, Chicago and Pittsburgh all they could handle. With guys like Fitzpatrick, Johnson, Nelson, Williams, Moats and the O-line all vastly improving, this could be a team moving in the right direction.Chan Gailey deserves a lot of credit for making this team competitive. There have been a LOT of stomach punch games this season, but with such low expectations coming into the season, they've certainly provided a lot of exciting games.

Very well said. I pegged them at about 5 wins this year. I think Fitz has earned the right to start, so Im hoping they draft OL next year first.

I don't think we can pass up a franchise quarterback if he's sitting there when we draft. I think the Bills are currently sitting at pick 6, so it is highly unlikely that Luck will be there but if he is he has to be the pick.

No way Luck falls to the Bills. And the only other QB I think has the ability to be a star is Cam Newton. But I think he's too much of a risk at #6. I'd rather see them take an OT, LB, DT, DE or a DB.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

No way Luck falls to the Bills. And the only other QB I think has the ability to be a star is Cam Newton. But I think he's too much of a risk at #6. I'd rather see them take an OT, LB, DT, DE or a DB.

No more DBs in the top 10, please.

 

[GroveDiesel]

No way Luck falls to the Bills. And the only other QB I think has the ability to be a star is Cam Newton. But I think he's too much of a risk at #6. I'd rather see them take an OT, LB, DT, DE or a DB.

No more DBs in the top 10, please.

Yeah, I can go with that. Honestly, I think I'd rather them trade down than anything else. I'm not really into college football that much so I'm not sure who will be available at what positions, but it seems like it's a pretty shallow draft and that the bang for the buck will be just as good about 10 spots later as it is at their current projected spot.Although, if there's another mediocre safety out there, we should jump on that quick!

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Mallett to the Bills could be a nice pickup as this team still absolutely needs a QB to build around. But, more than anything else, they just need to have a good draft and stop wasting valuable early picks like they did with Maybin and Spiller.

Whitner is likely gone after this year after finally playing reasonably well. It would probably be a mistake to sign him up to a long-term deal if it would cost $7MM/year or whatever the top safeties tend to make on the open market. George Wilson should be able to step in and play the position at a fraction of the cost.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I'm just not convinced on Mallet at all. I think his decision making skills are extremely suspect. He seemed to melt under the pressure during critical situations in big games too.

 

[Mr. Peterson]

Although it's nice to see us win some games and look competitive I'm a little dissappointed that we took ourselves out of the Luck race. I know Luck might not even come out and it won't matter but the teams below us won and we could have been sitting with a top 3 pick and only one win away from getting the best QB to come out of college in a long time. With the way we draft in the 1st round we need a sure thing and it now looks like we might not even be in the top 5. That's dangerous for us Bills fans. Can any of you honestly say that you have any confidence in the Bills management to make the right choice?

My friends and family think I'm being a bad Bills fan for wanting us to lose but I don't think so. I think I'm being a bigger fan because I feel that gettting Luck or a sure thing OT or DL will help this team a whole lot more than winning a couple games at the end of a meaningless year and getting another 1st round bust.