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The case for socialized medicine (1 Viewer)

Maurile Tremblay

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Americans spend more money each year on health care, in both absolute terms ($6,350 per person) and as a percentage of GDP (15.2%), than anyone else in the world. (OK, the Marshall Islands spend 15.4% of their GDP on health care, but that's only $294 per person.) (link)

European countries spend an average of $1,652 per person on health care each year, or 8.6% of GDP. (link)

Yet the US ranks behind most European countries (link) -- in fact, behind about three-fourths of all developed countries (link) -- in life expectancy.

It's not surprising that we have so little to show (in terms of health) for all of our extravagant spending on health care. As it turns out, once certain basic health care needs are met, there's no correlation between additional spending on health care, on the one hand, and improved health, on the other. Marginal spending on health care tends to be either useless or worse than useless. We could maintain similar life expectancy and quality of life if we slashed our medical care in half.

How can we slash our medical care in half? How can we get people to stop wanting more and more and more health care services?

I propose that we nationalize the health care industry. If doctors' offices were run more like the DMV, people wouldn't want to go there so much.

Here's my argument.

1. In the U.S., more spending on health care does not mean better health.

From this article in The New Yorker:

McAllen is in Hidalgo County, which has the lowest household income in the country ... McAllen has another distinction, too: it is one of the most expensive health-care markets in the country. ... In 2006, Medicare spent fifteen thousand dollars per enrollee here, almost twice the national average. The income per capita is twelve thousand dollars. ...

El Paso County, eight hundred miles up the border, has essentially the same demographics. ... Yet in 2006 Medicare expenditures ... in El Paso were $7,504 per enrollee - half as much as in McAllen. ... There’s no evidence that the treatments and technologies available at McAllen are better than those found elsewhere in the country. ... Nor does the care given in McAllen stand out for its quality. ... The primary cause of McAllen’s extreme costs was, very simply, the across-the-board overuse of medicine. ...

In a 2003 study, ... Elliott Fisher, examined the treatment received by a million elderly Americans diagnosed with colon or rectal cancer, a hip fracture, or a heart attack. They found that patients in higher-spending regions received sixty per cent more care than elsewhere. ... Yet they did no better than other patients, whether this was measured in terms of survival, their ability to function, or satisfaction with the care they received. If anything, they seemed to do worse. ...

And from a 2003 article in the Washington Monthly:

Where specialists are abundant, they find elders to treat--and Medicare pays, spending, for example, $50,000 more per patient in Miami than Minneapolis, as my colleague Shannon Brownlee recently wrote in The Atlantic. But according to John Wennberg of Dartmouth Medical School, elder persons living in regions where the use of specialists is high have no greater life expectancy than their counterparts in regions where it is low.

The reference to Miami and Minneapolis comes from this study:

In Miami, average inpatient Medicare spending on people in their last six months of life was about double Medicare spending in Minneapolis; average ICU days were nearly four times higher. What are the implications of such differences for the efficiency of health care? In this paper, we used Medicare claims data to document the extent of these variations across 306 hospital referral regions in the U.S. We did not find strong evidence that the spending differences were due to underlying variation in health levels across regions. Nor did we find evidence of any benefits from higher spending levels; regional survival rates following acute conditions like AMI (heart attacks), stroke, and gastrointestinal bleeding were not correlated with more intensive health care spending. ... In sum, our results suggest that ... regions providing more intensive care are not gaining net health benefits over regions providing less care ... .

Finally, these observations are from a couple articles in the Annals of Internal Medicine:

1. The more inpatient-based and specialist-oriented pattern of practice observed in high-spending regions largely explains regional differences in Medicare spending. Neither quality of care nor access to care appear to be better for Medicare enrollees in higher-spending regions.

2. Medicare enrollees in higher-spending regions receive more care than those in lower-spending regions but do not have better health outcomes or satisfaction with care.

The biggest and most carefully controlled study on this topic was the RAND Health Insurance Experiment. I started a thread on it a couple years ago. The gist is that when people have to pay for medical care on their own, they buy substantially less of it than when a third party is paying. But they get the same results in terms of their health. The extra health care has no benefit.

2. Indeed, a great deal of spending on health care is completely useless.

From David H. Newman, M.D. at the NYT blog:

The practice of medicine contains countless examples of elegant medical theories that belie the best available evidence.

* Recent press reports detailing the dangers of cough syrup for children have noted that cough syrup doesn’t work. True: No cough remedies have ever been proven better than a placebo, either for adults or children. Yet their use is common.
* Patients with ear infections are more likely to be harmed by antibiotics than helped. While the pills may cause a small decrease in symptoms (for which ear drops work better), the infections typically recede within days regardless of treatment. The same is true for bronchitis, sinusitis, and sore throats. Unnecessary antibiotics are still given to more than one in seven Americans each year for these conditions alone, at a cost of more than $2 billion and tens of thousands of serious adverse medication effects requiring treatment.
* Back surgeries to relieve pain are, in the majority of cases, no better than nonsurgical treatment. Yet doctors perform 600,000 of these surgeries each year, at a cost of over $20 billion.
* More than a half million Americans per year undergo arthroscopic surgery to correct osteoarthritis of the knee, at a cost of $3 billion. Despite this, studies show the surgery to be no better than sham knee surgery, in which surgeons “pretend” to do surgery while the patient is under light anesthesia. It is also no better than much cheaper, and much less invasive, physical therapy.

More on knee surgeries to treat arthritis in this Washington Post article:

One of the most common surgical procedures performed in the United States — arthroscopy to treat arthritis in the knee — is useless. ... [The] findings are being published in today’s issue of the New England Journal of Medicine. ... The study marks the second time a major study has questioned the operations, which can cost about $5,000 and are done on hundreds of thousands of Americans each year.

See a couple more Washington Post articles here and here. (The latter is a book review.)

All of this suggests that we could probably slash our health care spending in half without sacrificing our health. But how do we do that?

3. Nationalizing health care will reduce people's demand for it.

There's an analogy here to religion, I think. Larry Iannaccone is an economist who studies religion, and he has determined what Adam Smith and David Hume had both predicted: if a country nationalizes its religion, people will lose interest in it. Preachers on the government payroll will give sermons that are a lot more boring than preachers who have to rely on taking up a collection.

Iannaccone observes in this paper:

Among Protestants, at least, church attendance and religious belief both are higher in countries with numerous competing churches than in countries dominated by a single church. The pattern is statistically significant and ... visually striking. Church attendance rates, frequency of prayer, belief in God, and virtually every other measure of piety decline as religious market concentration increases. The relationship remains strong even after controlling for income, education, or urbanization.

Looking at [the data], one immediately spots the exceptionally low levels of religiosity in the Scandinavian countries and, conversely, the high level of religiosity in the U.S. As predicted by [Adam] Smith, these extremes correspond to different market structures. A single state-run (Lutheran) church dominates the market in every Scandinavian country. In contrast, the United States enjoys a constitutionally mandated free-for-all in which hundreds of denominations compete and none has special status.

In developed, first-world countries, the pattern is very strong: the more the government is involved in religion, the less religious the populace becomes. State-run religion just isn't very fun, so the demand for it is weak.

There is some evidence that the same holds true for health care. From a 1998 study:

Like previous studies, this one concludes that aggregate income measured by Gross Domestic Product per capita is the statistically most important factor in cross-national variation in health care expenditures, and that the aggregate income elasticity exceeds one. However, the data analyzed in this study also show some evidence that public financing of health care services is associated with lower expenditures per capita, and that countries with fee for service as the dominant form of remuneration have higher expenditures. The examined relationships appear to be temporally stable over the three years except for upward shifts, and there is no indication of statistical misspecification.

4. Conclusion

A large fraction of the health care we purchase apparently doesn't do as much good as many people think it does (as measured by results). Our life expectancy has improved by about 30 years over the last century -- but only about five of those years are due to improvements in medicine. Most of it comes from better hygiene, better workplace safety, and better food inspections. (link) (Most of the improvements from medicine involve vaccinations.)

Americans are spending twice as much on health care as most developed countries, but we still rank quite poorly in longevity.

As with religion, a competitive health care market in the U.S. has put it at the head of the class in terms of innovation and customer satisfaction (for those with adequate insurance). Modern medicine has discovered all kinds of new treatments for diseases that nobody even knew existed a few decades ago. (See the Washington Post articles linked to above.) Cures (or preventative measures) focusing on such fancy new "diseases" as high cholesterol have been hugely profitable for pharmaceutical companies, but probably a waste of time and money for everybody else.

We'd probably have a similar life expectancy and quality of life if we weren't so enthusiastic about spending other people's money on health care. How do you make people less enthusiastic about something? Cut out the innovative marketing, the friendly service, and the convenience. In other words, put the government in charge!

 
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I agree with your stated goal, which is essentially what the article from the New Yorker on McCallen concludes we need to do as well. I disagree that nationalizing it is the best way to achieve that goal. I prefer the Mayo model discussed in the article.

 
I have always wondered how much of the US comes from non-medical cultural factors, like the prevalence of fast food in diets throughout the economic strata.

ETA: I have heard from many people who traveled the world that the US diet, especially for the lower economic classes, is amongst the worst in the world. Other cultures problem is the lack of food...not that the food that they consume could actually harm them, like here in the US.

 
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Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it. To the point that I would have to change what I eat, what I drink and to some extent what I do. It kills #### in you that I would rather not have kilt and destroys your liver if you are not very careful.

At some point I am resigned to the fact that this will be my fate. Unless the cost of the Enbrel comes down dramatically over the next 10-15 years I'm confident that at some point my insurance will either stop covering it or I'll change jobs and it simply won't be covered. I would like to delay that as long as possible. I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care this medication stops for me. Not a fan :thumbup:

 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it. To the point that I would have to change what I eat, what I drink and to some extent what I do. It kills #### in you that I would rather not have kilt and destroys your liver if you are not very careful.

At some point I am resigned to the fact that this will be my fate. Unless the cost of the Enbrel comes down dramatically over the next 10-15 years I'm confident that at some point my insurance will either stop covering it or I'll change jobs and it simply won't be covered. I would like to delay that as long as possible. I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care this medication stops for me. Not a fan :thumbup:
I think that price decrease will happen shortly after October 23, 2012. Just in time for the world to end :eek:
 
Interesting take, Maurile. Like you, I'm typically a laissez-faire sort as far as economic systems and government intervention go, but the idea of socialized medicine has been increasingly compelling lately. Almost unnervingly so.

The only way I have been able to rationalize it to myself is by examining whether health care has become a service that the private sector is no longer able to effectively provide, like national defense or transportation infrastructure. And after reading your post and reflecting on it, I feel like it provides an explanation of why this may be the case. The health care market in America has effectively become a cartel -- insurers, health care providers, pharma manufacturers, and to a much lesser extent, the government (via Medicare and medical assistance programs for the needy) all negotiate among themselves to set pricing and divvy up profits. The main difference I see between this and a traditional cartel is that in most cases the consumer of the services is only on the hook for a relatively small percentage of the product's cost. And that artificially low cost stokes demand and increases the consumption rate for health care services beyond what it would naturally be.

I think that the idea of nationalizing health care as an incentive for the market to consume less of it is a pretty elegant solution. A move toward nationalized healthcare could also move us back toward the traditional definition of insurance -- that it is intended to provide protection against disastrous statistical outliers rather than offset (and, effectively, conspire to control) ongoing costs. Whether that insurer is the private sector or the government makes little difference, except for this: if increasing the size of the risk pool is seen as a viable actuarial strategy for reducing the average cost per participant, who can provide a risk pool as large as the federal government?

 
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Nationalizing the system will not keep us form eating crap and not exercising. That is one reason (a big one) why we as Americans die younger and have higher medical costs.

 
Nationalizing the system will not keep us form eating crap and not exercising. That is one reason (a big one) why we as Americans die younger and have higher medical costs.
This was a similar point to what I made before.What is wrong with the current health care system and be fixed via law in several ways. Congress can pass a law that doesn't allow companies to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions. Congress can pass a law that states as long as a premium is paid, coverage can not be dropped.Also, by opening up FEHB(Federal Employment Health Care) to all citizens, this would allow citizens to choose their health care based on their own personal needs. People with limited income can be subsidized by the federal government.
 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan :excited:
:unsure: I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
 
StrikeS2k said:
I agree with your stated goal, which is essentially what the article from the New Yorker on McCallen concludes we need to do as well. I disagree that nationalizing it is the best way to achieve that goal. I prefer the Mayo model discussed in the article.
:ptts:I agree here as well, and thought the New Yorker article had some very good points. I would be open to Nationalizing if it would solve something but I don't understand how it helps.Under a Nationalized structure will doctors be paid the same regardless of the amount of work they do? If not, they will always be incented to perform more procedures. Even more so if they will paid less per procedure as a Nationalized system would imply.
 
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1. In the U.S., more spending on health care does not mean better health.

Where is it written that federally-funded health care will lead to better health? There is a gorilla in the room that is being ignored here. I would wager that there is a stronger correlation between our lifestyle choices and better health. Look for that correlation in things like obesity rates. There is no argument that switching to socialized medicine will lead to better health, IMO because socialized medicine won't change our lifestyles.

The Washington Monthly article IMO not only defines the real problem, but may give us an odea of what the solution ought to be. "Where specialists are abundant, they find elders to treat--and Medicare pays, spending, for example, $50,000 more per patient in Miami than Minneapolis, as my colleague Shannon Brownlee recently wrote in The Atlantic." I'll return to this point later. The bottom line is that spending differences do not correlate with better health, just with more expensive health care. The fact that several of the studies cited followed Medicare patients already argue against socialized medicine providing the answer for better health. The conclusion to be drawn here is that socialized medicine (defined here as medicare) and increased spending levels do not correlate with better health.

So Maurile has destroyed his own case in his first post.

2. Indeed, a great deal of spending on health care is completely useless.

So why is this? How would this be different with socialized medicine? The answer to the first, I think I know. Over a decade ago, I was asked to serve on a hospital board, not because I was particularly qualified, but because I worked for the largest employer in a small county and they wanted that employer to have a representative on the Board. I quitin disgust after two meetings. Why? Because the hospital board doesn't care about health: they care about the balance sheet. So they put doctors under pressure to run more tests to pay for machine A and hospital wing B. This is in part why health care is so expensive. I suspect the same is true for many procedures of dubious value., as cited in the examples Maurile gives. Yet no evidence is presented that socialized medicine would fix this problem. In fact, SM just imposes the government in the place of the insurer.

3. Nationalizing health care will reduce people's demand for it.

No, nationalizing health insurance will not reduce people's need for health care. What a total crock! But Maurile does make one good point, which I will state a little differently: Preachers on the government payroll do not have to work as hard to save people's souls as preachers who have to rely on taking up a collection. That is, if your income is fixed and secure, your incentive to provide superior service decreases. This is an arguement against socialized medicine, not for it!

4. Conclusions

Maurile said: "As with religion, a competitive health care market in the U.S. has put it at the head of the class in terms of innovation and customer satisfaction (for those with adequate insurance). " From this statement onbe should draw the conclusion that removal of said competition is a bad thing, not a good thing.

This statement is equally wrong in its conclusions: "We'd probably have a similar life expectancy and quality of life if we weren't so enthusiastic about spending other people's money on health care. How do you make people less enthusiastic about something? Cut out the innovative marketing, the friendly service, and the convenience. In other words, put the government in charge!"

He is right that putting the governemnt in ccharge would stifle innovation, make health care less convenient, and lower the available service. You know what? that is not what I want in my health care service.

Now what does Maurile fail to see? That the government would be spending other people's money on health care, more so than insurance companies do! where does Maurile think the government will get this money? From other people of course!

So what is the answer? I think that getting rid of health insurance altogether or having an insurance that pays only a percentage of medical costs. If as a patient, I knew that the health care choices I made in a doctors office would affect would much I was paying for said treatment or testing, I would be more likely to ask whether or not there were cheaper alternatives or whether certain procedures were necessary. With the current system where we pay set deductibles no matter what the final costs, that doesn't happen. In a socialized system where our medical decisoins are severed from the costs of tests and treatments, it would be even more so.

The government does not exist to do cost/benefit analyses. Keep the governemnt out of the medicine business. They aren't businessmen. They couldn't even run a whore house.

 
There is no doubt our system can and should be better.

Having said that this article starts off with life expectancy as the standard. I'm not sure I agree. I'd rather use a quality of life or quality of care standard.

Also, in every area of medicine and surgery there are prescriptions and surgeries performed that are known to be unlikely to help. But that does not fairly portray the overwhelming and vast majority of cases where the specialist absolutley does help the patient.

Elective surgeries are often performed as nothing more than a "last hope" before moving on to more invasive surgery. While the percentages may indicate a low level of success, those patients for whom it does work sure as heck appreciate the option to try.

 
Unfortunately, I cannot continue this debate as I am insanely busy the next three days. However I would like to thank Maurile for his research. I am now even more opposed to socialized medicne than I was before I read the OP.

 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan :thumbup:
:blush: I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
Available maybe, covered at the same rate it is now? I doubt it. If you are presented with the option of paying $25 for something or $1,250 for something with essentially the same end result, what do you chose?
 
Why is life expectancy the standard of measurement being used here? Why not quality of life?

Why is a givernment run system the only "deterrence" mentioned? What about a system where those seeking care spend their own resources with whom, and where, they chjoose to receive their care? Wouldn't this be an equal deterrent? Maybe this wouldn't be fair, but why penalize everyone in the name of fairness? Life isn't fair.

As previously mentioned, the type of system doesn't doesn't dictate lifestyle. Regulating a system simply leaves it open to further abuse. Givernment subsidy and favoritism leads to more abuse, less efficiency, less freedom and generally higher cost; it all has to be paid for somewhere.

We have already seen the wonderful results of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Public Schools, Federal Budget restraint, etc....

Why is federalization even a viable consideration?

 
The problems with our health care industry run far deeper then postulated here, and are being exxagerated by other societal trends.

CASE IN POINT #1: The cost of Embrel mentioned. The problem with drugs in the US is that pharmaceutical companies have to spend millions, even BILLIONS of dollars to get a drug approved for use. Then...in a misguided government effort to limit costs...the patents for these ultra-expensive to design drugs are ony good for 5 years (or so). The company designing the drug has just a few short years to recoup their investment before they have to release the formula to all companies, allowing for competition to drive the price down to production costs only. A drug that costs $1000 today might only run $25 in three years with NO CHANGE IN HOW IT'S PRODUCED!!!!! Now...the system carries a lot of the blame, but pharmaceutical companies obviously take advantage of this, and as a result pour billions into improving old drugs so they can get new patents and collect on the higher profit margins inherrant in patent protection, and often these "new" drugs are not significantly better then the original.

CASE IN POINT #2: LITIGATION! WE all know by now how over-rescribed anti-biotics are. WE all know that doctors have a tendency to order dozens more tests then they need, usually earlier then they need them. The doctors know better...yet they continue to do these things...why? Because we have given them no choice but to consistantly "fail-safe", under constant threat of debilitating lawsuits. If that family practice doctor stops giving little Johnny his antibiotics when his ear hurts...and little Johnny were to actually be that 1 in a billion kid who got fatally ill because of it....the doctor is ruined. But perhaps that's an inaccurate statement, since little Johnny's mother will almost certainly take little Johnny to another doctor until another doctor gives little Johnny the medicine which will (only marginally) speed up his recovery. The honest and responsible doctor is still screwed. This makes the problem systemic, and it's very unreasonable to try to place any significant blame on the individual doctors.

In the end, the problems we have now will not necessarily be cured by socialized medicine, because the root causes go far beyond our health care structure. Moving to socialized medicine would probably eventually cure the cost problems, but is a far from ideal solution. Unfortunately, barring a radical change in how we think and act as Americans, it might be the only workable solution.

ETA: On Embrel, oddly enough Embrel is like a miracle drug for RA (My X had it), and infinitely superior to Methotrexate, etc., but the same medicine is being pimped as a treatment for acne. And insurance companies can be tricked into paying for this expensive drug for acne?????? Also...why are drug companies ALLOWED to advertise their drugs....telling people to ask their doctors for the product? This makes ZERO sense to me.

 
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Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan ;)
:yes: I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
Available maybe, covered at the same rate it is now? I doubt it. If you are presented with the option of paying $25 for something or $1,250 for something with essentially the same end result, what do you chose?
:confused: Shouldn't cost the patient a dime. I'm thinking of a U.K.-style NHS in the U.S., not some universal insurance scheme.
 
Why is federalization even a viable consideration?
Because too many Americans have nothing. And "get a job and let the employer insure you" doesn't work, either -- only a sharply limited number of American adults can actually get and stay in the professional job market (i.e. white-collar jobs you typically need college for) that tends to offer better health insurance.A lot of "I've got mine -- where's yours?" mentality out there (not necessarily in this forum).
 
So what is the answer? I think that getting rid of health insurance altogether or having an insurance that pays only a percentage of medical costs. If as a patient, I knew that the health care choices I made in a doctors office would affect would much I was paying for said treatment or testing, I would be more likely to ask whether or not there were cheaper alternatives or whether certain procedures were necessary. With the current system where we pay set deductibles no matter what the final costs, that doesn't happen. In a socialized system where our medical decisoins are severed from the costs of tests and treatments, it would be even more so.
:goodposting: UNder your proposal....health care overall would DRAMATICALY and TRAGICALLY be ruined. The whole idea of insurance is to spread out the risk, so that nobody gets ruined by a lack.WHy would we want to put anybody in a positonn (or risk putting OURSELVES in the position) of not being able to get a critical life-saving procedure done because we can't afford the 10K pricetag???? Your solution is not just untenable, but I find it irresponsible, particularly coming at the end of what was a generally well thought out and reasonable post.
 
Why is federalization even a viable consideration?
Because too many Americans have nothing. And "get a job and let the employer insure you" doesn't work, either -- only a sharply limited number of American adults can actually get and stay in the professional job market (i.e. white-collar jobs you typically need college for) that tends to offer better health insurance.A lot of "I've got mine -- where's yours?" mentality out there (not necessarily in this forum).
:homer:
 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan :homer:
:) I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
Available maybe, covered at the same rate it is now? I doubt it. If you are presented with the option of paying $25 for something or $1,250 for something with essentially the same end result, what do you chose?
:confused: Shouldn't cost the patient a dime. I'm thinking of a U.K.-style NHS in the U.S., not some universal insurance scheme.
Missing my point, if nationalized you can't tell me the government will agree to continue to pay $1,250 for a drug when one is available that essentially accomplishes the same thing for $25. (Yes, I know this sounds exactly like something the government would do but lets for a moment forget about $700 hammers.) No f'n way they will continue to subsidize it. They will force Methotrexate rather than the more expensive alternative. You're high if you think differently.
 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan :wall:
:bag: I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
Available maybe, covered at the same rate it is now? I doubt it. If you are presented with the option of paying $25 for something or $1,250 for something with essentially the same end result, what do you chose?
:confused: Shouldn't cost the patient a dime. I'm thinking of a U.K.-style NHS in the U.S., not some universal insurance scheme.
Missing my point, if nationalized you can't tell me the government will agree to continue to pay $1,250 for a drug when one is available that essentially accomplishes the same thing for $25. (Yes, I know this sounds exactly like something the government would do but lets for a moment forget about $700 hammers.) No f'n way they will continue to subsidize it. They will force Methotrexate rather than the more expensive alternative. You're high if you think differently.
Why would they be any less likely to than a private company which directly profits when they give you the cheaper alternative?
 
Why is federalization even a viable consideration?
Because too many Americans have nothing. And "get a job and let the employer insure you" doesn't work, either -- only a sharply limited number of American adults can actually get and stay in the professional job market (i.e. white-collar jobs you typically need college for) that tends to offer better health insurance.A lot of "I've got earned mine -- where's yours?" mentality out there (not necessarily in this forum).
If I have good insurance (and have done what was needed to get and maintain it) then there is a very good possibility I will either lose my good insurance or have to pay substantially more for it. Will it help people that can't afford it now :wall: , but realize there will be a cost to probably just as many people as the number that are helped in more cost and/or less quality/choices.
 
I want people to address why we shouldn't just encourage the Mayo model or something similar, which seems to work well at offering quality health care at very reasonable cost. Unless someone can make a case why that isn't a good solution I can't give them any credibility with regards to pushing socialized medicine.

 
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What we need is a solution that is somewhat outside the box.

For example: what about each State granting an insurance company a monopoly to provide health insurance in the state? Much the same way that States grant publicly traded power and water companies a monopoly to provide utilities in the state. So you have a single plan...a single payer, but isn't a government plan anymore than your power company is a government agency. Insurance costs get reduced significantly because he pool of healthy individuals is significantly larger for the insurance company; billing is simplified and better long term contracts can be worked between doctors, hospitals, labs and drug companies. Raising costs are held in check because any increase in rates must be brought to the PUC. In addition...the PUC can develop financial incentives so that rural areas are better covered and that physicians are encouraged towards primary care/general practice over specialization. Finally, in one fell swoop you get rid of insurance marketers and sham companies. You also nearly eliminated the need for lobbyist.

I'm also for some kind of law where patients get to know exactly what a procedure is going to cost prior to having the procedure done.

 
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?

 
Here is my one concern with this argument and it is totally self-centered. I take an RA medication (Enbrel) that runs about $1,250/month for 4 shots. No way I would be able to afford this without insurance so the substitute is Methotrexate. Methotrexate is a relatively cheap alternative (typical $20 or $25 prescription fee) but it brings some very nasty side effects along with it ... I'm pretty sure the minute we go to nationalized health care, [Enbrel] stops for me. Not a fan :thumbdown:
:confused: I'd bet good money that Enbrel will absoutely be available for you under nationalized health care. Tax dollars are still green ... the Enbrel manufacturer will still accept them. Nationalized healthcare does not equal "everything expensive goes out the window".
Available maybe, covered at the same rate it is now? I doubt it. If you are presented with the option of paying $25 for something or $1,250 for something with essentially the same end result, what do you chose?
It is only $1250 because the US (and other) government(s) interfere with the free market with the intrusion, Constitutional in this case of granting monopolies through patents.
 
Why is life expectancy the standard of measurement being used here? Why not quality of life?
Life expectancy is easier to measure. But quality of life, where it has been measured, has given the same answer.
Why is a givernment run system the only "deterrence" mentioned? What about a system where those seeking care spend their own resources with whom, and where, they chjoose to receive their care? Wouldn't this be an equal deterrent? Maybe this wouldn't be fair, but why penalize everyone in the name of fairness? Life isn't fair.
If I were king, I would implement an even better solution. But I'm not king, and all the better solutions are politically infeasible in the U.S. I think our realistic options are (a) continuing on with something like the current system until health care eats up 30% of our GNP, when we will be forced to make a switch; (b) some kind of single-payer plan like Canada or Australia have; or (c] some other kind of socialized plan like France or Sweden have.I'm about as pro-free-market as anyone here. But the system we currently have is not at all a free market system; and in fact is very likely less efficient than what we'd get from options (b) or (c], IMO.

 
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?
That's inconsistent with the real-world results we've observed in at least two areas: religion and health care. When the government takes over in those two areas, the cost goes down.As for quality -- I don't think it matters much. The difference between the "high quality" Protestantism in the U.S. and "low quality" Protestantism in Scandinavia, for example, is not something I lose sleep over. What does more expensive, "higher quality" Protestantism really get us, as a practical matter? Same question for health care?
 
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Why is a givernment run system the only "deterrence" mentioned? What about a system where those seeking care spend their own resources with whom, and where, they chjoose to receive their care? Wouldn't this be an equal deterrent? Maybe this wouldn't be fair, but why penalize everyone in the name of fairness? Life isn't fair.
If I were king, I would implement an even better solution. But I'm not king, and all the better solutions are politically infeasible in the U.S. I think our realistic options are (a) continuing on with something like the current system until health care eats up 30% of our GNP, when we will be forced to make a switch; (b) some kind of single-payer plan like Canada or Australia have; or (c] some other kind of socialized plan like France or Sweden have.I'm about as pro-free-market as anyone here. But the system we currently have is not at all a free market system; and in fact is very likely less efficient than what we'd get from options (b) or (c], IMO.
MT, instead of a single payer, why not allowing all citizens access to the FEHB system(run by private insurers), with premiums supplemented for people of lower economic means? Universal coverage with minimal government involvement.
 
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?
That's inconsistent with the real-world results we've observed in at least two areas: religion and health care. When the government takes over in those two areas, the cost goes down.As for quality -- I don't think it matters much. The difference between the "high quality" Protestantism in the U.S. and "low quality" Protestantism in Scandinavia, for example, is not something I lose sleep over. What does more expensive, "higher quality" Protestantism really get us, as a practical matter? Same question for health care?
Maybe you have explained this somewhere else, but I don't understand your relation b/w government programs and religion. Would you explain that for me? How is American religion different from Scandinavia?
 
I want people to address why we shouldn't just encourage the Mayo model or something similar, which seems to work well at offering quality health care at very reasonable cost. Unless someone can make a case why that isn't a good solution I can't give them any credibility with regards to pushing socialized medicine.
The Mayo model seems to rely on doctors giving up money in order to serve patients better. It's great that some doctors are willing to do that. But expecting it to become a generalized solution that will catch on in a widespread way seems unrealistic, IMO. It's the McAllen-style health care that will gain market share and continue to make medicine a "growth industry" (given the current system of health insulation rather than health insurance).If we'd just repeal the part of the tax code that makes health insurance premiums deductible for employers but non-taxable to employees, that would go a long way toward fixing the current system. But is that politically feasible? Until we get the unions on board with it, I don't think it is. And I don't think the unions will come on board until health care spending reaches something like 30% of GDP.
 
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?
That's inconsistent with the real-world results we've observed in at least two areas: religion and health care. When the government takes over in those two areas, the cost goes down.As for quality -- I don't think it matters much. The difference between the "high quality" Protestantism in the U.S. and "low quality" Protestantism in Scandinavia, for example, is not something I lose sleep over. What does more expensive, "higher quality" Protestantism really get us, as a practical matter? Same question for health care?
Maybe you have explained this somewhere else, but I don't understand your relation b/w government programs and religion. Would you explain that for me? How is American religion different from Scandinavia?
See the Iannaccone article linked to in the OP.
 
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?
That's inconsistent with the real-world results we've observed in at least two areas: religion
:bag: Is the US government also proposing getting involved in a national religion? Muslim, maybe, since I have it on unimpeachable authority that the US is allegedly the largest Muslim country in the world...
How can anyone living in the country not understand that when the Federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost goes up while the quality goes down?
That's inconsistent with the real-world results we've observed in at least two areas: religion and health care. When the government takes over in those two areas, the cost goes down.
First of all, the direct cost may go down, but if we are to get even remotely the same level of care the costs will have to go up unless something dramatic changes in our system. Perhaps you can't sue the doctor providing care because he is now part of the Federal government system - that would eliminate the very large amounts dedicated to lawyers drawing off the system (but may significantly impair the ability of a patient to obtain just compensation for avoidable medical mistakes at the same time). The insurance companies wouldn't get nearly as large of a piece of the pie, but I can't imagine the Federal government creating an enormous level of beauracracy that would cost less than the insurers currently do - it likely will cost substantially more, since the government is notorious for running up costs that private industry can't or is unwilling to do in the name of competition. The costs could be shifted to companies in the way of corporate tax increases, but that would just be shifted to the consumers, meaning it would simply be an indirect tax. Or are you willing to accept a significantly lower level of care - and government issuing health care standards and criteria for care - in exchange for reduced costs, as many of the European countries have?
 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
The gist is that when people have to pay for medical care on their own, they buy substantially less of it than when a third party is paying. But they get the same results in terms of their health. The extra health care has no benefit.
This is the part that I think is most important. Although you need to have some kind of a safety net, everyone should be responsible for their own health care. Not your employer, not the government, not your neighbors, etc.
 
The Mayo model seems to rely on doctors giving up money in order to serve patients better. It's great that some doctors are willing to do that. But expecting it to become a generalized solution that will catch on in a widespread way seems unrealistic, IMO. It's the McAllen-style health care that will gain market share and continue to make medicine a "growth industry" (given the current system of health insulation rather than health insurance).
Yes and No. The article just says Doctors are paid on salary as opposed to per procedure/patient or any other model that incentivizes unnecessary medical work. It doesn't specifically say that the salary is such that the income of the doctor is reduced. The end result may be that they don't have to hire as many doctors, buy as much equipment, or build as many medical buildings/hospitals because they aren't performing unnecessary tests and procedures. And at the end of the day isn't that our goal?
 
The Mayo model seems to rely on doctors giving up money in order to serve patients better. It's great that some doctors are willing to do that. But expecting it to become a generalized solution that will catch on in a widespread way seems unrealistic, IMO. It's the McAllen-style health care that will gain market share and continue to make medicine a "growth industry" (given the current system of health insulation rather than health insurance).
Yes and No. The article just says Doctors are paid on salary as opposed to per procedure/patient or any other model that incentivizes unnecessary medical work. It doesn't specifically say that the salary is such that the income of the doctor is reduced. The end result may be that they don't have to hire as many doctors, buy as much equipment, or build as many medical buildings/hospitals because they aren't performing unnecessary tests and procedures. And at the end of the day isn't that our goal?
How long will that last? The Mayo Clinic is a non-profit organization. One problem with a lot of non-profit hospitals is that there's no incentive to cut costs. The hospital administrators don't get bonuses by streamlining operations and increasing return on capital. They get more prestige (and more money?) by growing the size of the hospital -- increasing the number of beds, the number of MRI machines, etc. And where there are additional beds, they tend to get filled. Where there are additional MRI machines, they tend to get used.I don't know about the Mayo Clinic specifically. What do they do with their net earnings? If they donate them to charity, that's great. But with a lot of non-profit hospitals, being unable to pay out earnings to shareholders, they instead plow all net earnings into buying more (or more expensive) equipment and expanding operations, trying to grow into a bigger and more prestigious hospital. And the Mayo Clinic may will be different, but at most hospitals, fancy equipment doesn't go un-used. If it's there, its use will be indicated for patients.

I admittedly don't know anything about Mayo aside from what's in the McAllen article (and a quick glance at Wikipedia). If it really has found an incentive structure that contains costs without relying on having doctors forgo their own self-interest, I'd like to learn a lot more about it.

 
First of all, the direct cost may go down, but if we are to get even remotely the same level of care the costs will have to go up unless something dramatic changes in our system.
I assume you know and like the Laffer curve? It says that, at some point P, increasing marginal tax rates reduces tax revenues.There's something like that for health care as well. At some point Q, increasing spending on health care by buying more of it reduces people's health. I think we're past that stage in the U.S. At the margin, people are taking drugs and getting surgeries that are riskier than the ailments being treated. Hospitals actually kill more people than car accidents do.

But even if you don't think we're past point Q where marginal health care does more harm than good, it should at least be clear that we're past the point where marginal care still does more good than harm. That's the evidence from all the links in Parts 1 and 2 of my original post.

 
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The Mayo model seems to rely on doctors giving up money in order to serve patients better. It's great that some doctors are willing to do that. But expecting it to become a generalized solution that will catch on in a widespread way seems unrealistic, IMO. It's the McAllen-style health care that will gain market share and continue to make medicine a "growth industry" (given the current system of health insulation rather than health insurance).
Yes and No. The article just says Doctors are paid on salary as opposed to per procedure/patient or any other model that incentivizes unnecessary medical work. It doesn't specifically say that the salary is such that the income of the doctor is reduced. The end result may be that they don't have to hire as many doctors, buy as much equipment, or build as many medical buildings/hospitals because they aren't performing unnecessary tests and procedures. And at the end of the day isn't that our goal?
Yes...but until you answer the little Johnny dilema I postulated earlier....it won't matter. The sources of our frustrating problems lie outside the specific realm of health care. Nationalized/socialized health care is a specific answer that might actually work, but we as a people don't have the self-discipline or tolerance to allow the other (some possibly better) solutions a chance.
 
Why would they be any less likely to than a private company which directly profits when they give you the cheaper alternative?
Can somebody else help me out here because I don't seem to be connecting with Doug & fred.Scenario #1

Patient pays $250 once a year, gubment pays $14,750 subsidy to drug company

Scenario #2

Patient pays $25/prescription, gubment pays $0 to maybe $1,000 subsidy to drug company

 
* Patients with ear infections are more likely to be harmed by antibiotics than helped. While the pills may cause a small decrease in symptoms (for which ear drops work better), the infections typically recede within days regardless of treatment. The same is true for bronchitis, sinusitis, and sore throats. Unnecessary antibiotics are still given to more than one in seven Americans each year for these conditions alone, at a cost of more than $2 billion and tens of thousands of serious adverse medication effects requiring treatment.
When our kids had earaches, they would not go away without antibiotics. I think this is a load of crap.
 
Why would they be any less likely to than a private company which directly profits when they give you the cheaper alternative?
Can somebody else help me out here because I don't seem to be connecting with Doug & fred.Scenario #1

Patient pays $250 once a year, gubment pays $14,750 subsidy to drug company

Scenario #2

Patient pays $25/prescription, gubment pays $0 to maybe $1,000 subsidy to drug company
How much does the drug company from Scenario #1 give to politicians in campaign contributions?I think bostonfred's point is that politicians tend to be more generous with taxpayers' money than insurance executives are with their shareholders' money.

 
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I assume you know and like the Laffer curve? It says that, at some point P, increasing marginal tax rates reduces tax revenues.
Yeah - try telling the Dems that. They call it "Voodoo Economics". There is no association of this kind of knowledge with most things I have seen government involved in, and little to no recognition of the principle you cite even existing, much less being used.
 
Shouldn't cost the patient a dime. I'm thinking of a U.K.-style NHS in the U.S., not some universal insurance scheme.
Missing my point, if nationalized you can't tell me the government will agree to continue to pay $1,250 for a drug when one is available that essentially accomplishes the same thing for $25. (Yes, I know this sounds exactly like something the government would do but lets for a moment forget about $700 hammers.) No f'n way they will continue to subsidize it. They will force Methotrexate rather than the more expensive alternative. You're high if you think differently.
Guess I'm high, then.(a) You're assuming the price points are the exact same under an NHS than they are in a free market. The $1,250 drug is not that pricey because it's special or because it's (relatively) difficult to produce -- it's because it's relatively new and is not yet competing with generics.(b) Doctors can easily attest to your side effects, and they will be able to treat you accordingly. I'm super-confident of that, personally. I have zero fear of people being forced to take drugs that they are allergic to.
 

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