The choice to keep Díaz on board triggered the resignation of three of the magazine's poetry editors (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

I was just reading this and decided that if three poetry editors couldn't get it done and taken care of, I think Mr. Pickles should resign as ombudsman of the FFA in solidarity.

Junot Diaz cleared!

 

[rockaction]

This is one of those where I don't necessarily feel like discussing the importance of the contextual situation but merely wanted to isolate a sentence because of the futility of the gesture given the position in question.

It struck me as the plaintive wails of the over-serious. Others may view it as the righteous indignation of the wrongfully aggrieved.

I seek not to really debate that, upon further consideration. I just thought the sentence said it all.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure he was cleared so much as they ruled what he did was inappropriate but not so inappropriate that they will part ways with him. I don’t know who this guy is, don’t really care either. Don’t care about whatever circles/institutions he is a part of either. I wouldn’t waste much thought or time on literary magazines or Pulitzer or MIT professors.

 

[rockaction]

I wouldn’t waste much thought or time on literary magazines or Pulitzer or MIT professors.

Whoa. Now we disagree. What happens in those halls sets the tone for not only the guidelines by which ordinary Americans will live in twenty-five years (it always starts in academia), but the creative output of our best and brightest is affected by what goes on in those places.

I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Ilov80s]

I wouldn’t waste much thought or time on literary magazines or Pulitzer or MIT professors.

Whoa. Now we disagree. What happens in those halls sets the tone for not only the guidelines by which ordinary Americans will live in twenty-five years (it always starts in academia), but the creative output of our best and brightest is affected by what goes on in those places.

I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

Perhaps but what can I do about it? I’ve got my small circle I can impact. What goes on outside of that isn’t worth my time. I would rather focus all my energy on those things I can make a great impact on.

 

[Ilov80s]

And I’ve already got my one stupid pompous thing I am interested in despite my better judgment: the Oscars and film culture. Though at least I can partake in that in a way.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

And I’ve already got my one stupid pompous thing I am interested in despite my better judgment:

At least you didn't say the middle-aged dummy countdowns.

 

[rockaction]

I would rather focus all my energy on those things I can make a great impact on.

Heh. I ain't tellin' you that you have to care at all. I guess we don't even really disagree. Our energies are best spent locally, I agree. But keeping an eye on the national, even if seemingly arcane, matters to me in a way.

 

[kupcho1]

I was just reading this and decided that if three poetry editors couldn't get it done and taken care of, I think Mr. Pickles should resign as ombudsman of the FFA in solidarity.

Junot Diaz cleared!

Seems like you're making light of it.
No, strike that. You are making light of it.

The #MeToo movement has receded a bit over the last few years, and that's probably a good thing given how much of an overcorrection seemed to be occurring initially. MIT did a months long investigation and found the allegations to be (I assume) less than credible enough to sever ties with Diaz. (Although the fact that Diaz himself resigned from the Pulitzer Prize board says something about the underlying behavior.)

The Boston Review decided to maintain its relationship with him (no mention as to whether or not they did their own due diligence; perhaps they just piggybacked off of MIT?). The end result being that 3 of their poetry editors decided to quit in protest having the courage of their convictions.

Hilarious.

I recognize that their decision to quit is likely futile but I applaud it anyway. As the 3 stated

“What most distresses us are the letter’s apparent arbitration of what constitutes inclusion in the #MeToo movement and its lack of attentiveness to power dynamics in a star-driven media and publishing landscape.”

As someone with a daughter I don't want this type of behavior creeping back into the workplace, wherever that workplace may be.

 

[rockaction]

Actually, I explicitly state that I'm making light of the self-seriousness of three likely easily replaceable poetry editors resigning in an officious bout of performative sexual politics.

But then we get serious.

You, like me, do not want the workplaces of yesteryear. That is untenable. What are also untenable are the new rules on romance and passion. Toxic masculinity is now ascribed to high schoolers that dare to rate women based on looks. They must be corrected and shamed, the logic goes. You admit in your post that the #MeToo movement contained seeds of an "overreaction." I assume this is what Diaz got swept up in, and there is no overreactive gesture greater than the resignation of the poetesses in a futile gesture. I doubt that any educational system with its DEI requirements would keep a professor on after poor sexual behavior. The list of the #MeToo scalps was growing and the offices of academia were the first to rush to judgment.

I get a sneaking suspicion Díaz did very little, and he was cleared by almost every entity he worked with (those entities being more liberal than I can even fathom). Diaz is no hero to me, either, lest it be construed that way. His wispiness in the face of free speech claims by Charlie Hebdo and other causes don't endear him to me. I just think this was where academia almost ate one of its own, but was saved by the facts at hand.

 

[Ilov80s]

I would rather focus all my energy on those things I can make a great impact on.

Heh. I ain't tellin' you that you have to care at all. I guess we don't even really disagree. Our energies are best spent locally, I agree. But keeping an eye on the national, even if seemingly arcane, matters to me in a way.

This just seems like a giant nothing. "Important" guy does some things women were uncomfortable with. They complain, he vaguely admits to mistakes, apologizes and says he wants to be better. Organizations investigate and rule he didn't cross enough of a line to terminate him. Some people are still uncomfortable with him, they resign. Sounds like things mostly worked out how they should? Assuming there is no cover-up or malicious intent, this seems like everything played out as it should.

 

[rockaction]

Assuming there is no cover-up or malicious intent, this seems like everything played out as it should.

Not if you're the poetesses.

 

[Ilov80s]

Assuming there is no cover-up or malicious intent, this seems like everything played out as it should.

Not if you're the poetesses.

They got to make their moral stand, deliver a point, get some press for their views, etc. Assuming these investigations were actually thorough and done in good faith, I don't know what the poets want? There are some standards, he didn't break them. I don't know what to say. Obviously, very hard to address any of this with anything but vagueness since we have little detail and no first hand knowledge of these people.

 

[rockaction]

Assuming these investigations were actually thorough and done in good faith, I don't know what the poets want?

I'm guessing they wanted a less favorable result to Diaz. Either that, or on a macro level, new standards where one would see the enforcement of what amount to closer to zero-tolerance policies with burdens of proof made less stringent for women accusers. (Remember the "I believe her" hashtag sort of meme thing?)

 

[Ilov80s]

Assuming these investigations were actually thorough and done in good faith, I don't know what the poets want?

I'm guessing they wanted a less favorable result to Diaz. Either that, or on a macro level, new standards where one would see the enforcement of what amount to closer to zero-tolerance policies with burdens of proof made less stringent for women accusers. (Remember the "I believe her" hashtag sort of meme thing?)

Oh I am sure they did. To me it seems like a pretty fair result though (given the lack of info we have). The poets got to make a publicized point. Diaz got publicly humiliated. The institutions and their members will likely be more vigilant and thoughtful about behavior in the future. Unless you are arguing that he should have been canned and banned? I don't think that is your POV. To me, this played out more or less as it should have (again assuming the investigation was totally legit).

 

[rockaction]

Unless you are arguing that he should have been canned and banned? I don't think that is your POV. To me, this played out more or less as it should have (again assuming the investigation was totally legit).

I don't know what he did, but you're right. I am certainly not arguing for his firing nor advocating besmirching his name given that the institutions were in front of the issue, investigated it, and found no wrongdoing.

Won't I look like an *** if they were both covering his ***!

 

[Ilov80s]

Unless you are arguing that he should have been canned and banned? I don't think that is your POV. To me, this played out more or less as it should have (again assuming the investigation was totally legit).

I don't know what he did, but you're right. I am certainly not arguing for his firing nor advocating besmirching his name given that the institutions were in front of the issue, investigated it, and found no wrongdoing.

Won't I look like an *** if they were both covering his ***!

That's why I am glad the PSF is gone and I've 75% disconnected from all of that BS. So much of the conversation is based on vapor. People we don't know, places we've never been, events we are lucky to even have a credible 2nd hand source on, publicists spinning stories in all directions, etc. Another reason I am preferring to just focus on my immediate world: people I know, places, I go and sourced from my own eyes and ears.

 

[rockaction]

Another reason I am preferring to just focus on my immediate world: people I know, places, I go and sourced from my own eyes and ears.

Sounds healthier than what I do. I prefer to watch what's coming out of the woodwork, too. That way you don't wind up beheaded for your innocence. You can also judge the different claims and choose whether to accept or reject those claims to justice, especially their premises and their conclusions.

 

[rockaction]

But the only reason I posted this is to say Mr. Pickles > hey. We still lack the ombudsman we need.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I wouldn’t waste much thought or time on literary magazines or Pulitzer or MIT professors.

Whoa. Now we disagree. What happens in those halls sets the tone for not only the guidelines by which ordinary Americans will live in twenty-five years (it always starts in academia), but the creative output of our best and brightest is affected by what goes on in those places.

I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

Nobody cares about wet markets until something goes wrong.

 

[rockaction]

Nobody cares about wet markets until something goes wrong.

Maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but I sense a wink, nod, and double entendre there.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Nobody cares about wet markets until something goes wrong.

Maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but I sense a wink, nod, and double entendre there.

Just a totally random thought that popped into my head while reading the thread, and one that I felt compelled to type out for some reason. I should do a better job staying on topic. My bad.

 

[Ilov80s]

I wouldn’t waste much thought or time on literary magazines or Pulitzer or MIT professors.

Whoa. Now we disagree. What happens in those halls sets the tone for not only the guidelines by which ordinary Americans will live in twenty-five years (it always starts in academia), but the creative output of our best and brightest is affected by what goes on in those places.

I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

Nobody cares about wet markets until something goes wrong.

Or labs on the other side of the world for that matter. I’m not too worried about a poet at MIT spreading anything other than their own pomposity.

 

[rockaction]

Just a totally random thought that popped into my head while reading the thread, and one that I felt compelled to type out for some reason. I should do a better job staying on topic. My bad

No, it's actually a really good analogy, if I get your train of thought right. People don't care what happens or what practices are in place in enclaves that don't affect them until those practices come from seemingly out-of-nowhere to very much affect them.

In this case, I'm arguing that academia will be the settler of morals for the rest of society at some point, so I watch with interest.

 

[kupcho1]

Unless you are arguing that he should have been canned and banned? I don't think that is your POV. To me, this played out more or less as it should have (again assuming the investigation was totally legit).

I don't know what he did, but you're right. I am certainly not arguing for his firing nor advocating besmirching his name given that the institutions were in front of the issue, investigated it, and found no wrongdoing.

You make some great points throughout this thread (which have already been addressed/amplified by others, so I won't pile on).
However, I still think you're missing something by saying there was no wrongdoing.

Referencing the article you cited: Diaz's been cleared by MIT to continue teaching. Although the title of the article states he was cleared of misconduct, we all know headlines don't always accurately reflect the story. Moreover

1. "Díaz acknowledged some inappropriate behavior without addressing any of the specific accusations."
2. Diaz stepped down as chairman (should read chairperson!) of the Pulitzer Prize board. This isn't something I'd expect from someone who hadn't done anything wrong, particularly since they are conducting their own independent review. (My assumption here is that he resigned to get out in front of what was probably coming. But again, just an assumption on my part.)

We're in violent agreement on just about everything else here.

As an example, your comment: Remember the "I believe her" hashtag sort of meme thing?
That was only policy until Biden had been accused. Then it was: everyone deserves a fair hearing - let's wait 'til the facts come out; innocent until prove guilty - by the same crowd that was shouting #IBelieveHer

 

[rockaction]

Although the title of the article states he was cleared of misconduct, we all know headlines don't always accurately reflect the story. Moreover

1. "Díaz acknowledged some inappropriate behavior without addressing any of the specific accusations."
2. Diaz stepped down as chairman (should read chairperson!) of the Pulitzer Prize board. This isn't something I'd expect from someone who hadn't done anything wrong, particularly since they are conducting their own independent review. (My assumption here is that he resigned to get out in front of what was probably coming. But again, just an assumption on my part.)

Fair enough. I'd be lying, though, if I didn't say that in the environment he was in, his transgressions didn't have to be large ones for apologies and stepping down from boards. But that's only a suspicion I have, and all we know are his apologies and subsequent actions. And if that's what we have to go off of, then we can say that they must be true. Something happened.

But I think we'd also be in agreement on this: In a position of power, one ought -- ought -- to know better than to treat one's students as sexual agents. Yes, one is human, but as a prize winner himself, he should know how his students look up to him and probably shouldn't be put in sexual situations. I'm not a puritan, but I also think discretion is in order given his position.

So thanks for the measured and reasonable response to my musings here. I appreciate it.

 

[Manster]

I'm betting public outrage take over and they'll send him packing...... especially if more women come forward. That vague apology though.....what a doosh.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Let’s not bring Mr. B or Mr. T into this. Things tend to go south when we do.

 

[rockaction]

I'm betting public outrage take over and they'll send him packing...... especially if more women come forward. That vague apology though.....what a doosh.

The article is from June 2018, so I'm pretty sure he's safe from those allegations at this point. Whether he's gotten any others is something we don't know.

 

[rockaction]

Let’s not bring Mr. B or Mr. T into this. Things tend to go south when we do.

Is this an A-Team reference? Because I'm not sure I get it when we speak in code, though I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Mr. T is if it's not about the A-Team.

 

[Ilov80s]

Although the title of the article states he was cleared of misconduct, we all know headlines don't always accurately reflect the story. Moreover

1. "Díaz acknowledged some inappropriate behavior without addressing any of the specific accusations."
2. Diaz stepped down as chairman (should read chairperson!) of the Pulitzer Prize board. This isn't something I'd expect from someone who hadn't done anything wrong, particularly since they are conducting their own independent review. (My assumption here is that he resigned to get out in front of what was probably coming. But again, just an assumption on my part.)

Fair enough. I'd be lying, though, if I didn't say that in the environment he was in, his transgressions didn't have to be large ones for apologies and stepping down from boards. But that's only a suspicion I have, and all we know are his apologies and subsequent actions. And if that's what we have to go off of, then we can say that they must be true. Something happened.

But I think we'd also be in agreement on this: In a position of power, one ought -- ought -- to know better than to treat one's students as sexual agents. Yes, one is human, but as a prize winner himself, he should know how his students look up to him and probably shouldn't be put in sexual situations. I'm not a puritan, but I also think discretion is in order given his position.

So thanks for the measured and reasonable response to my musings here. I appreciate it.

Agree. They are adults so there imo isn’t anything wrong if an intimate relationship develops. You just have be to extra careful and make sure it’s all very out in the open.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Let’s not bring Mr. B or Mr. T into this. Things tend to go south when we do.

Is this an A-Team reference? Because I'm not sure I get it when we speak in code, though I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Mr. T is if it's not about the A-Team.

It is not an A-Team reference.

 

[Ilov80s]

Let’s not bring Mr. B or Mr. T into this. Things tend to go south when we do.

Is this an A-Team reference? Because I'm not sure I get it when we speak in code, though I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Mr. T is if it's not about the A-Team.

Think about it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Let’s not bring Mr. B or Mr. T into this. Things tend to go south when we do.

Is this an A-Team reference? Because I'm not sure I get it when we speak in code, though I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Mr. T is if it's not about the A-Team.

I pity the fool who can't work out who's being referenced here. But I do love it when a plan comes together.

 

[Manster]

I'm betting public outrage take over and they'll send him packing...... especially if more women come forward. That vague apology though.....what a doosh.

The article is from June 2018, so I'm pretty sure he's safe from those allegations at this point. Whether he's gotten any others is something we don't know.

Didn't see the date....still a doosh