The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[AAABatteries]

Let's all live our life's based on a book of fairy tales written by a bunch of brown guys from the middle east 2000+ years ago! Cool!

What do you have against brown guys?

Literally nothing. Just most bible thumpers think Jesus was a white guy with super ripped abs.

The ripped abs are critical though - nobody wants their savior to have a Dad bod.

 

[HomerSimpson]

Let's all live our life's based on a book of fairy tales written by a bunch of brown guys from the middle east 2000+ years ago! Cool!

What do you have against brown guys?

Literally nothing. Just most bible thumpers think Jesus was a white guy with super ripped abs.

The ripped abs are critical though - nobody wants their savior to have a Dad bod.

Well i mean that Middle Eastern diet 2,000 years ago, he was probably at a calorie deficit carrying crosses, walking on water and turning his fish into bread and water into wine all the time. So hey, maybe we can start "The Jesus Diet Method"! Get shredded in no time!

 

[General Malaise]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

 

[HomerSimpson]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

 

[General Malaise]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

Nothing. My guess is that a lot of mainline protestant congregations die off (literally) over the next couple of decades. Those denominations seem to be getting absolutely destroyed in terms of attendance and membership. (I don't know much about the source that I just linked to, but I've seen similar numbers reported elsewhere, and this was the first result I found when I searched for these data).

This is just a single data point, but my wife and I attended the same UMC congregation for about 20 years. When we first joined, they were running three services each Sunday, with good attendance in all three. They were forced to drop down to two services weekly several years before the pandemic, and the pandemic knocked them down to just one. The last time we attended, I'd say the sanctuary was maybe 25% full, and it was almost all grown adults and old people, with almost no kids to be seen. They had stopped doing a "children's lesson" in worship a few years earlier because there were too few children in church to justify it. And that was before the schism. I'm genuinely tempted to go back sometime and see what it's like now. That congregation has no future. As soon as a couple of affluent members pass on, it will fail.

Our current congregation is part of a much smaller, but theologically-related denomination ("The Wesleyan Church"). They do contemporary worship only, which isn't our favorite, but they do it really well. This congregation also attracts a ton of college students and families with kids. They do three services in a sanctuary significantly larger than the one we left, plus a couple of services during the week (which we don't attend, but it's a sign of health that those are viable). That's probably the future of protestantism in the US.

 

[Scoresman]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

Funny story. I used to work on one of AT&T's cell tower site build projects. A big part of this effort is site acquisition of existing spots to plop down a cell site. We had many churches signed up, but I remember one almost finalizing their contract (it would be A LOT of revenue for them per month), but at the last minute they refused citing concerns that the signals from the cell site would interfere with the congregation's prayers going up to heaven.

 

[Harry Manback]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

Not sure, but what is the negative consquence of Churches shuttering their doors? Those big buildings that are empty most of the week can be repurposed to serve the community or can be used to house a business that will pay taxes and contribute to the town/city.

 

[Jayrod]

Not sure, but what is the negative consquence of Churches shuttering their doors? Those big buildings that are empty most of the week can be repurposed to serve the community or can be used to house a business that will pay taxes and contribute to the town/city.

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".
2. The vast majority already serve the community in multiple ways.
3. All non-profits don't pay taxes, not just churches.
4. What is stopping you or anyone else from utilizing the massive amounts of empty buildings in most cities to do these things?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Religion and politics are both about controlling the masses. I worked at Ford with a couple of Muslim engineers who actually left or are non practicing anymore. We have talked about is many time and to them they said it is all about control. If they did not have some type of religious control in Middle East countries it would be total chaos

It's absolutely about control unless someone wants to argue that Bible passages like Exodus 21 are about morality.

1 Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[b] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money."

 

[Jayrod]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

Reveal what? That they are close to closing their doors? That they are laying off people and cutting programs?

Because that is what is happening.

 

[General Malaise]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

Reveal what? That they are close to closing their doors? That they are laying off people and cutting programs?

Because that is what is happening.

Ok, thank you. I just asked. I have no idea what's going on, I've been godless for decades so have no clue. Especially in other areas of the country.

 

[Desert_Power]

Let's all live our life's based on a book of fairy tales written by a bunch of brown guys from the middle east 2000+ years ago! Cool!

What do you have against brown guys?

Literally nothing. Just most bible thumpers think Jesus was a white guy with super ripped abs.

The ripped abs are critical though - nobody wants their savior to have a Dad bod.

Dude can literally turn water into wine. Casting severe doubt he can stay lean with that wine around.

 

[General Malaise]

Let's all live our life's based on a book of fairy tales written by a bunch of brown guys from the middle east 2000+ years ago! Cool!

What do you have against brown guys?

Literally nothing. Just most bible thumpers think Jesus was a white guy with super ripped abs.

The ripped abs are critical though - nobody wants their savior to have a Dad bod.

Dude can literally turn water into wine. Casting severe doubt he can stay lean with that wine around.

Just hoping I live long enough to see Jesus as the spokesperson for yet another reboot of the Jardiance jingle.

 

[the moops]

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".

Really? I would bet that if I went into a random church on a random mid week day at a random time, chances are substantially high that it is mostly empty.

 

[rockaction]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

 

[rockaction]

NOT ENOUGH UNTIL ALL THE INTERNET RELIGION IS STOMPED!!!

 

[AAABatteries]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Not your point but I’ve always been fascinated by atheism. I think as I’ve aged somehow my belief in Christianity has waned while a belief in a higher being has maybe increased.

 

[General Malaise]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Can you link me to another thread where you believe my question about finances would be more germane? Happy to delete and move...

 

[rockaction]

Can you link me to another thread where you believe my question about finances would be more germane? Happy to delete and move...

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.

 

[General Malaise]

Can you link me to another thread where you believe my question about finances would be more germane? Happy to delete and move...

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.

Clear as mud....

 

[bigbottom]

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".

Really? I would bet that if I went into a random church on a random mid week day at a random time, chances are substantially high that it is mostly empty.

Most Catholic Churches have daily services.

 

[bigbottom]

Also, while I am not a regular attendee, whenever I do attend mass, our relatively small town Catholic church is pretty packed.

 

[rockaction]

Clear as mud....

It wasn’t directed at you.

 

[General Malaise]

Clear as mud....

It wasn’t directed at you.

I never know, man.

 

[Mitchie]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

Funny story. I used to work on one of AT&T's cell tower site build projects. A big part of this effort is site acquisition of existing spots to plop down a cell site. We had many churches signed up, but I remember one almost finalizing their contract (it would be A LOT of revenue for them per month), but at the last minute they refused citing concerns that the signals from the cell site would interfere with the congregation's prayers going up to heaven.

We put a cell tower antenna on my condo building a few years ago, now I know why so many crappy things have been happening to me.

 

[the moops]

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".

Really? I would bet that if I went into a random church on a random mid week day at a random time, chances are substantially high that it is mostly empty.

Most Catholic Churches have daily services.

Fair. How well attended are those? I grew up catholic so I know those masses last forever, but even with a daily service it's not inaccurate that those places are generally empty? And to be clear I don't think empty spaces are a bad thing

 

[bigbottom]

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".

Really? I would bet that if I went into a random church on a random mid week day at a random time, chances are substantially high that it is mostly empty.

Most Catholic Churches have daily services.

Fair. How well attended are those? I grew up catholic so I know those masses last forever, but even with a daily service it's not inaccurate that those places are generally empty? And to be clear I don't think empty spaces are a bad thing

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

Here’s the Calendar for my church. There are generally 3-5 events every weekday. So not empty most of the week. And I would imagine this would be pretty normal for most Catholic churches.

As for Protestant churches, I have less experience, but I would imagine that they have a variety of youth events, Bible studies, young singles ministries and other events and gatherings that occur during the week. I doubt the buildings are standing empty.

 

[General Malaise]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So you don't buy into the United States being the great "melting pot"?

 

[General Malaise]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

I recently went to my childhood church. Just a small Baptist church in the country, but half of the community attended on sunday. sunday school attendance was always 100+ people. now it is about 25 people mainly from about 6 different families. I don't know how they manage to pay the bills. the population has probably doubled in that community, but newcomers either don't go to church or go elsewhere.

Most people attend the Church of the NFL now. Not sure how that changes going forward and I'm not being glibb when I say this.

 

[Gatorade]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So you don't buy into the United States being the great "melting pot"?

It is the great melting pot, but the more different ingredients you add changes the flavor of the stew.

 

[General Malaise]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So you don't buy into the United States being the great "melting pot"?

It is the great melting pot, but the more different ingredients you add changes the flavor of the stew.

I suppose but unless you're 100% Native American with ancestral roots dating back centuries, all of us living here were also added ingredients to the stew. And many of the folks that jumped into this big pot were brought here against their will. We are a complex nation for sure!

 

[Gatorade]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

I recently went to my childhood church. Just a small Baptist church in the country, but half of the community attended on sunday. sunday school attendance was always 100+ people. now it is about 25 people mainly from about 6 different families. I don't know how they manage to pay the bills. the population has probably doubled in that community, but newcomers either don't go to church or go elsewhere.

Most people attend the Church of the NFL now. Not sure how that changes going forward and I'm not being glibb when I say this.

you are correct. many now choose to worship athletes and celebrities of all types. Unless a "great revival " occurs, that will only increase.

 

[General Malaise]

I often wonder how all these big old churches are going to keep paying the bills with declining memberships. I know some are probably cashed up and living off their income of their nuts, but man, I don't see how they sustain for decades down the line with less interest and inflation. Wonder if a deep dive on financials would reveal anything on this.

There is ALWAYS another grift and also they pay zero in taxes (ugh)

Oh, I know some will grift, but I think a lot of churches are traditional and are relying on offerings/tithes to stay afloat. These are big buildings, expensive to heat/cool, keep the lights on, etc. I know some have found income streams by putting cell towers on top of 'em, which is pretty smart. But I don't know a lot of people my age who take their kids to church even irregularly. I don't know if that's because Oregon isn't in the bible belt, but even my friends from Texas (where I'm from) are out on church. That's a big old generation of parents not raising their kids with religion. With the baby boomers dying off, who replaces that income stream?

I recently went to my childhood church. Just a small Baptist church in the country, but half of the community attended on sunday. sunday school attendance was always 100+ people. now it is about 25 people mainly from about 6 different families. I don't know how they manage to pay the bills. the population has probably doubled in that community, but newcomers either don't go to church or go elsewhere.

Most people attend the Church of the NFL now. Not sure how that changes going forward and I'm not being glibb when I say this.

you are correct. many now choose to worship athletes and celebrities of all types. Unless a "great revival " occurs, that will only increase.

Ehhh, I dunno if it's worship so much as people want to be entertained. If you asked 10 year old me whether I'd want to go to church or watch the Cowboys play, I would have thought it was a trick question.

 

[dkp993]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Rock this is an interesting post since you don’t seem to have the same reaction about the very pro-religion posts in this thread.

The exact same thing you are saying here can be said about how atheists feel every day from the religious.

 

[rockaction]

I don’t think calling an entire faith or way of life a “grift” is equivalent to anything.

 

[rockaction]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words). That I don’t have to tell pro-religious people on the board things like, “you’re being an ***,” might say something. Grift is a pretty damn strong accusation, and I think I’m right to say that anyone referring to faith institutions as a “grift” is running around a bit amok in the discussion. It would be akin to calling somebody “damned” or “ heathen” in all seriousness.

 

[rockaction]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

 

[djmich]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Correction, bashing Catholicism. The original post that set off the bashfest was a reply to someone who had a discussion with coworkers who were Muslim about their religion. And then the next post had to start quoting bible verses to sound really smart and make a point. Was actually a well-intended discussion with some solid posts from @KarmaPolice before that.

 

[djmich]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So you don't buy into the United States being the great "melting pot"?

I don't think the decline in religion or morals has anything to do with being a melting pot. I'd guess immigrants (legal or illegal) profile to be more religious than natural born citizens.

 

[Mitchie]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words). That I don’t have to tell pro-religious people on the board things like, “you’re being an ***,” might say something. Grift is a pretty damn strong accusation, and I think I’m right to say that anyone referring to faith institutions as a “grift” is running around a bit amok in the discussion. It would be akin to calling somebody “damned” or “ heathen” in all seriousness.

How would you possibly know who is pro-religious or not other than the ones who openly speak about it?

 

[djmich]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words). That I don’t have to tell pro-religious people on the board things like, “you’re being an ***,” might say something. Grift is a pretty damn strong accusation, and I think I’m right to say that anyone referring to faith institutions as a “grift” is running around a bit amok in the discussion. It would be akin to calling somebody “damned” or “ heathen” in all seriousness.

How would you possibly know who is pro-religious or not other than the ones who openly speak about it?

Where did he imply he was clairvoyant and was able to infer without them speaking about it?

 

[Mitchie]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words). That I don’t have to tell pro-religious people on the board things like, “you’re being an ***,” might say something. Grift is a pretty damn strong accusation, and I think I’m right to say that anyone referring to faith institutions as a “grift” is running around a bit amok in the discussion. It would be akin to calling somebody “damned” or “ heathen” in all seriousness.

How would you possibly know who is pro-religious or not other than the ones who openly speak about it?

Where did he imply he was clairvoyant and was able to infer without them speaking about it?

His statement is implying it. I could be behaving like an *** and be pro-religious but whether I'm pro or anti religion would not be known if I haven't stated any opinions on religion.

Now if he's saying that he hasn't had to tell that to any people on this board who are openly pro religious on here, that's a different statement. But not very meaningful.

 

[djmich]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words). That I don’t have to tell pro-religious people on the board things like, “you’re being an ***,” might say something. Grift is a pretty damn strong accusation, and I think I’m right to say that anyone referring to faith institutions as a “grift” is running around a bit amok in the discussion. It would be akin to calling somebody “damned” or “ heathen” in all seriousness.

How would you possibly know who is pro-religious or not other than the ones who openly speak about it?

Where did he imply he was clairvoyant and was able to infer without them speaking about it?

His statement is implying it. I could be behaving like an *** and be pro-religious but whether I'm pro or anti religion would not be known if I haven't stated any opinions on religion.

Now if he's saying that he hasn't had to tell that to any people on this board who are openly pro religious on here, that's a different statement. But not very meaningful.

He’s been on the board 13yrs, a frequent poster and in the middle of a religion thread. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that he knows who has openly shared they are religious at least to some extent. A few shared just on the last few pages alone.

Why is observing their behavior not meaningful?

 

[KarmaPolice]

More what I was trying to say is that in the scheme of the world, we are a pretty young country that was largely built around a universal belief in many things and we are seeing many of those things eroding away like the belief in God, our government, family, where we get info, on and on. If none of those are replaced with something positive or equally unifying, what does that mean for America?

The more time I spend in different places, the more I realize how massive this country is, and unifying people this different was always going to be tough. (I am not sure it was ever that unified behind religion and government anyway, but that's neither here nor there. This is an interesting topic.)

To put a number on it, It is about 900 miles from Cincinnati to Boston. It's about 300 from London to Paris. It's about 800 miles from London to Prague. There's 5 countries and 4 languages between England and Czechia, same distance as Boston to Cincy. Someone from rural Idaho maybe figures people from BOS and CIN are similar, and someone from NYC maybe thinks people from Montana and Colorado are similar. But people in those places know that's not true, at all. I don't know what is going to unify someone from Portland OR, Jackson MI, and MIami, FL.

I don't think it is religion. I was raised Baptist. Well, whatever version of Baptist I was exposed to. Because going to different parts of the country, and going to different Baptist churches, the differences were notable. Southern Baptists aren't not doing the same stuff I was doing as a kid. And that's just one segment of Protestant.

But leaving that aside, the distance, the fool's errand I think it is to have religion unifying a country this massive, I think local engagement and community is valuable, achievable, and worth investing in, for sure. I think there are multiple other more realistic ways to do it, however.

I was talking to my son about your first part, and how I would encourage to find any way to travel safely abroad before he settles in. Just the tiny bit I was lucky enough to do through school really opened my eyes to just how weird (unique??) our country is. So many things make us a unique case in the world from how big and diverse it is to how far we are from other countries to want to do us harm. Your stats were a bit shocking even to me about the scales we are discussing.

Now to the bolded. If I gave the impression I was talking about a specific religion that wasn't my intent. What I was driving at is as a country we used to be way more unified behind and believed in core ideas. One of them was the belief in a God. Yes, there is differences between the denominations but just that central belief was something that helped glue our country together. That is a very heavy core belief that causes friction, which is why my experience growing up wasn't positive toward religion. My original point was that mine and it surely seems others original impulse was to say that's a good thing. First that is admitting how big of a hurdle that is for people as they interact. Also, the more I thought about it the more I thought about the positive things about that type of community and social gathering. Church was still a great place for people from a wide variety of incomes, education, and social class to come together and interact. It is much harder to hate each other when you do that, and I think we all can admit that. On top of that I would argue we had stronger belief in other things from a love of country to where we got our information.

I agreed that I personally don't think it should be religion, or I at least cleared up I meant organized religion. My huge concern is that I look around and we have failed miserably to find a replacement that has any of those positive things I just listed above. The internet and social media accelerated that process. There could be more realistic ways to unite people in a similar way, but I don't see us doing it and many of the things I see people gathering socially like that for are much less likely to include people of as diverse backgrounds and ideologies like I pointed above. Just as concerning to me, if not more so, is that our discourse in general and specifically towards people who don't think like us about something as become extremely hateful and hyperbolic.

After thinking about it I became less and less convinced that the erosion of religion is currently a good thing.

 

[KarmaPolice]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Fitting that a few chose to prove my point in the post above about the internet and divisiveness. At the very least I think the militant atheists should provide how they are a group are providing those similar positive social interactions while taking shots.

 

[KarmaPolice]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Rock this is an interesting post since you don’t seem to have the same reaction about the very pro-religion posts in this thread.

The exact same thing you are saying here can be said about how atheists feel every day from the religious.

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

 

[Captain Cranks]

NOT ENOUGH UNTIL ALL THE INTERNET RELIGION IS STOMPED!!!

Can you provide an example of someone trying to stomp out religion in here?

 

[Captain Cranks]

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

IMO, there's one incident of mockery which is unfairly being broadcast to a larger group. Some here take any form of dissension as an affront.

 

[KarmaPolice]

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

IMO, there's one incident of mockery which is unfairly being broadcast to a larger group. Some here take any form of dissension as an affront.

Sure, there could be a bit of that. I will track to be more clear in my thoughts. My post was about the internet in general and how these conversations usually go. IMO that is where the tone ends up in the post you quoted. I think the frustration was that people had hoped to avoid that in here. Could we at least agree that the tone of the thread shifted in the last couple days?