The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[Scoresman]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Again, I know churches like that exist, but I wish people would believe us when we say that that is not at all what most of us are experiencing on a typical Sunday.

In my life, this is pretty much all that I have seen.

But the noisy minority/bad actors is getting the headlines, and exerting a lot of influence. They are not just some powerless weirdos, waving snakes around somewhere in the woods.

It has been repeated here again and again that we need to believe people when they say they haven't seen it in their church. I believe all of you. But everyone knows this other side exists, and no one from the reasonable side of the fence seems to be concerned with reining in the bad actors. I had a front row seat to the Boston archdiocese coverup of the child abuse, and Cardinal Law got a retirement vacation to Italy as punishment.

On an individual level, it's fine to say, hey not happening where I am.

On an institutional level, none of these bad actors are being called out.

"Hey it's not happening where I am" makes it sound like a coincidence or something. I choose my congregation based on a variety of factors. "Does not abuse children" isn't something I spend a lot of time worrying about, but I've always intentionally opted against the type of congregations that you're concerned with. In the specific case of the Boston archidiocese, I was all in favor of prosecuting people who committed or abetted crimes, and I still am. So I guess I'm left at a loss for what you expect me to do. I don't have any ability to march into the Vatican to tell them what's what. All I can do is control the stuff that I have control over -- such as voting with my feet -- and I'm happy with where I've landed.

That's what calling out bad actors looks like at the level of an individual, which is what I am.

 

[timschochet]

And whoever said faith was incongruent with reason isn't familiar with Aquinas.

OR- you are very familiar with Aquinas but regard his argument as severely flawed.

 

[massraider]

So I guess I'm left at a loss for what you expect me to do.

Nothing. It's not reasonable to expect any single person to do anything, and I said so in the post you quoted.

The discussion is about the loss of religion, really Christianity. Well, Christianity has a long and nasty history, people doing bad things in the name of Christianity, and secular people looking around don't need to look far to see more nastiness. When they do, how enticing is it when someone says "well, MY church isn't like that"?

You see what I mean? I am not calling out you Ivan, to go and sort out all the criminals hiding behind Christianity.

I am saying on an institutional level, they have no interest in fixing things, and on an individual level it's, most of us aren't like that. It's not a very strong marketing campaign.

 

[timschochet]

All of modern human civilization owes a huge debt to Thomas Aquinas. He was the first major thinker to consider that there MIGHT be a conflict between reason and religion, and he sought a means to resolve that conflict. By doing so he paved the way for the advancements of the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and our modern age of technology.

But that doesn’t make his solution right. It worked. It was necessary for about 1000 years. It may or may not be necessary today. But that doesn’t make it an eternal truth. As an atheist, I ultimately believe that the conflict between faith and reason can never be resolved.

 

[plinko]

I don't really know how to approach a topic like this, as much as I sometimes think I should weigh in, as somebody who used to fly my atheist flag high and proud around here and have come to discover in recent years that I was WRONG. And I am regretful, and humble about that, and I generally avoid the topic now because I know I don't have the words for much. And I try to stay humble, and grateful to God, above all.

I do think, tim, that true faith and reason can easily coexist, while dogma and reason usually can not.

At the end of the day it's humanity that is deeply flawed, yours truly included, and that is reflected in churches, religions, governments, and everywhere else.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So I guess I'm left at a loss for what you expect me to do.

Nothing. It's not reasonable to expect any single person to do anything, and I said so in the post you quoted.

The discussion is about the loss of religion, really Christianity. Well, Christianity has a long and nasty history, people doing bad things in the name of Christianity, and secular people looking around don't need to look far to see more nastiness. When they do, how enticing is it when someone says "well, MY church isn't like that"?

You see what I mean? I am not calling out you Ivan, to go and sort out all the criminals hiding behind Christianity.

I am saying on an institutional level, they have no interest in fixing things, and on an individual level it's, most of us aren't like that. It's not a very strong marketing campaign.

Honestly, no. I'm not catholic and I don't live in Boston, so I genuinely feel no responsibility at all for the sex abuse scandal in that particular district.

If other people want to make sweeping judgements about religion in general, or Catholicism in general, or Christianity in general, based on something like that, okay. I can't stop you. I've explained what Christianity is like for me. If you'd rather focus on Catholics in Boston, or the crusades, or whatever, that's your prerogative. It seems to me that that's a little bit like writing off higher education because of the misdeeds of people at Penn State and MSU, but whatever. All of this -- the actions of Catholic priests, the actions of administrators outside my institution, and the beliefs of others -- are all outside my control.

Regardless, it's time for kickoff. See you Monday.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I am saying on an institutional level, they have no interest in fixing things, and on an individual level it's, most of us aren't like that. It's not a very strong marketing campaign.

So I'm clear, are you speaking about the Catholic church?

 

[The Commish]

As an atheist, I ultimately believe that the conflict between faith and reason can never be resolved.

What does this mean? What conflict are you talking about?

 

[massraider]

Honestly, no. I'm not catholic and I don't live in Boston, so I genuinely feel no responsibility at all for the sex abuse scandal in that particular district.

I've said twice no one individual bears this, so I can only assume you don't want to believe me.

 

[AAABatteries]

The question is “Is the loss of religion in America a good, neutral, or bad thing?”, so ignoring what the radical religious folks are doing is disingenuous. Who gives a **** if some FBGs church does great things and they don’t see all the negatives where they worship. Not to mention the way religions are you have to assume all other religions are a net negative as it keeps people out of heaven. I’ve seen some of the people defending their religion lament the fact the we can’t call out Islamic radicals. Oh, the irony.

 

[AAABatteries]

And that’s ignoring “debatable” items like gay marriage, abortion and women in leadership within the church.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The question is “Is the loss of religion in America a good, neutral, or bad thing?”, so ignoring what the radical religious folks are doing is disingenuous. Who gives a **** if some FBGs church does great things and they don’t see all the negatives where they worship.

I think we've talked about these things. I don't think we've ignored things and certainly not been "disingenuous". Some have discussed their actual experiences. That often happens on a discussion board.

 

[AAABatteries]

The question is “Is the loss of religion in America a good, neutral, or bad thing?”, so ignoring what the radical religious folks are doing is disingenuous. Who gives a **** if some FBGs church does great things and they don’t see all the negatives where they worship.

I think we've talked about these things. I don't think we've ignored things and certainly not been "disingenuous". Some have talked about and discussed their actual experiences. That often happens on a discussion board.

Sure, and we can all list our anecdotes which will be framed with our biases and beliefs. That’s fine - but the question, as I read it, is looking at all religions across all of the US. I only focused on one side in my post and I should have expanded it. Either side of the debate has to own all of the stuff that happens - cherry picking or giving anecdotes only proves your experience and not what happens more universally.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'd put the failure of the nuclear family and the rise of social media and the poor quality of public education and the gross financial inequality (at least in the US) right up there.

Weren't those all once functions of a strong, community-based religion? That the churches served those gaps in governance and society through charity and insistence on community norms?

I don't know. That's how I've always understood it. Where family failed, where education wasn't offered, where richness over poor prevailed, the churches stepped in with both action and conscience.

Churches kinda steal from the poor to make swindlers rich, no? (Joel Osteen... yes extreme example), and also realize not all churches do that but the whole tithe thing seems very suspicious to me

Hey, just be grateful there’s not (really) tithing loopholes similar to tax ones that billionaires use to not pay taxes.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sure, and we can all list our anecdotes which will be framed with our biases and beliefs. That’s fine - but the question, as I read it, is looking at all religions across all of the US. I only focused on one side in my post and I should have expanded it. Either side of the debate has to own all of the stuff that happens - cherry picking or giving anecdotes only proves your experience and not what happens more universally.

Sure. Do you think anyone sharing personal experience and discussing and bringing their insight to the thread was claiming anything other than that?

There was a lot of discussion about the specific topic. I found the "Who gives a **** about your personal experience with this" odd for a discussion board where most of the discussion is people sharing what they think.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

reprehensible in your opinion. Not my church, but not everyone believes gay marriage should be legal, or that homosexuality is OK either. I personally don't care, but I don't find it egregious that people object to it.

 

[Scoresman]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

reprehensible in your opinion. Not my church, but not everyone believes gay marriage should be legal, or that homosexuality is OK either. I personally don't care, but I don't find it egregious that people object to it.

History is not going to look back on opposition to same sex marriage kindly. On one hand you've got an organization that is supposed to be about being loving and welcoming and has tenets like "Love they neighbor" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". In the other hand, this same organization supported legislation to deny marriage to same sex couples. That is certainly not being loving and accepting of thy gay neighbors.

We're talking about the decline of religion in America, and I feel hypocrisies like this and dogma that does not keep up with society as a whole are going to be looked back on as the primary reason for people's disenchantment with Christianity and other similar organized religions.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

church: hey a bunch of y'all aren't welcome

people: *stop going to church*

church: *shocked pikachu face*

 

[timschochet]

As an atheist, I ultimately believe that the conflict between faith and reason can never be resolved.

What does this mean? What conflict are you talking about?

Just that ultimately, one can’t reconcile religious belief with science. It’s one or the other.

That’s my belief. I don’t expect religious people to share it.

 

[Mitchie]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

reprehensible in your opinion. Not my church, but not everyone believes gay marriage should be legal, or that homosexuality is OK either. I personally don't care, but I don't find it egregious that people object to it.

yeah i dunno, seems to me that gay people are born this way and for churches to object to this which denies people basic rights and leads to broken families and increased suicide among teens is pretty egregious

 

[Scoresman]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

reprehensible in your opinion. Not my church, but not everyone believes gay marriage should be legal, or that homosexuality is OK either. I personally don't care, but I don't find it egregious that people object to it.

yeah i dunno, seems to me that gay people are born this way and for churches to object to this which denies people basic rights and leads to broken families and increased suicide among teens is pretty egregious

It shouldn't matter if they're born that way or not. They are human adults and if they choose to be gay, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone. If your religion considers being gay a sin and you think it's a choice, then choose not to be gay. But keep it to yourself. Don't impose what you think is a sin on others. And ESPECIALLY don't introduce/support legislation for it. Not unless you want your organization to slowly lose favor and die out.

 

[TripItUp]

Just that ultimately, one can’t reconcile religious belief with science. It’s one or the other.

That’s my belief. I don’t expect religious people to share it.

This is assuming that one must take a fundamentalist view of scripture...which of course is an absurd assumption.

ETA: I'm not religious

 

[fatness]

Maybe when I was a kid organized religion did more good than harm, I don't know. I don't believe it does now. There are far too many incidents of pastors or youth pastors harming people.

To flesh this out with some personal experience from the 1960's.

1. I went to church camp (Methodist) every summer after 4th, 5th, and 6th grades. Camp was for a week at Camp Penn, near Micheaux State Forest in PA. The last night each camp week was a big bonfire, where we had impromptu religious celebration and talk around a huge fire, and we were each urged to spend the remaining part of the evening walking around the woods thinking about what we'd learned and what we believed. There was no curfew that night but everybody was always back in the cabin by 10 or so. The head counselor for the camp, a minister everyone really liked, would invite a few campers (selected by him) to his cabin every bonfire night. I was at camp with a friend from my church, and he got the invite to cabin. Later lights were off in the lodge and everyone was back in bed except him. Almost an hour later he came back quietly, got in bed, and I asked him what it was like at the head counselor's cabin. He said nothing, literally. I tried talking to him a bit more. He never said one word. The next day all our parents came to pick us up, and he refused to talk to anyone at breakfast or while packing. The next Sunday he didn't attend Sunday School, and sat with his parents during the church service instead of with friends. That continued for 4-5 weeks and then the family stopped going to the church altogether. He was a gregarious kid, had numerous friends, but never spoke to any of us after that night in the head counselor's cabin. I knew then that something was terribly, terribly wrong, just didn't know what. Flash forward to the year 1985, and the head counselor, the minister, was charged with and convicted of molesting one or more kids. That let me know for certain what happened to my friend on bonfire night at church camp in 6th grade.

2. About 10 years ago I got to talking by email with 4-5 other people I went to both high school and church with, kind of updating each other about our lives and parents and siblings and kids and such. Conversation turned to the church we went to and whether any of us thought back then that the pastor was abusive or predatory in any way. And we all agreed we'd never seen or suspected that. But one of the women brought up being repeatedly invited to the home of an important church member when she was a teenager, a big donor to the church who had horses on his property. She loved riding horses so she took him up on th e invitation and things were fine for a bit, then suddenly one time he was all over her and she was running around a pool table to get away from him. She played field hockey so he was no match for her running ability. The other 2 women in the conversation said they were not surprised, they'd been through similar experiences, and that's about all the discussion. It wasn't appropriate for me to ask any of them "well what happened?" if they were not offering that information.

People in churches are in positions of power and/or authority and/or influence, and were abusing that status as far back as the 1960's. With vast media coverage of current events, there are frequently stories like this of church members abusing victims. I read some of those stories as I consume news, perhaps some of you do, too, and plenty of people around the country do also. All those events erode faith in organized religion, which too often sets up people in position to abuse than it does with those who've suffered abuse.

 

[the moops]

I wouldn't consider a list of 20 mostly unrecognizable politicians in the history of this country as a pretty long list. In fact, I would consider it almost completely unheard of.

No worries. We disagree there.

As I said though, thanks to all on the bigger discussion. It's been productive.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I am confused with your disagreement. There are a handful of politicians in the history of this country that have outwardly professed their atheism. None of us can recite their names off the top of our head as being atheist politicians. There have been studies showing that Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist over any other religion/race/sexuality/etc. Yet you still disagree with the statement that "it is almost completely unheard of to be an open atheist politician". You state that it isn't your actual experience, but I am curious who all these atheist politicians that have been elected that form that opinion.

 

[BlackCrowes]

I wouldn't consider a list of 20 mostly unrecognizable politicians in the history of this country as a pretty long list. In fact, I would consider it almost completely unheard of.

No worries. We disagree there.

As I said though, thanks to all on the bigger discussion. It's been productive.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I am confused with your disagreement. There are a handful of politicians in the history of this country that have outwardly professed their atheism. None of us can recite their names off the top of our head as being atheist politicians. There have been studies showing that Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist over any other religion/race/sexuality/etc. Yet you still disagree with the statement that "it is almost completely unheard of to be an open atheist politician". You state that it isn't your actual experience, but I am curious who all these atheist politicians that have been elected that form that opinion.

Pete Stark is the only one I can remember that was very open about it.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I don't really know how to approach a topic like this, as much as I sometimes think I should weigh in, as somebody who used to fly my atheist flag high and proud around here and have come to discover in recent years that I was WRONG. And I am regretful, and humble about that, and I generally avoid the topic now because I know I don't have the words for much. And I try to stay humble, and grateful to God, above all.

I do think, tim, that true faith and reason can easily coexist, while dogma and reason usually can not.

At the end of the day it's humanity that is deeply flawed, yours truly included, and that is reflected in churches, religions, governments, and everywhere else.

How did you find your your atheist views were wrong?

 

[AAABatteries]

Sure, and we can all list our anecdotes which will be framed with our biases and beliefs. That’s fine - but the question, as I read it, is looking at all religions across all of the US. I only focused on one side in my post and I should have expanded it. Either side of the debate has to own all of the stuff that happens - cherry picking or giving anecdotes only proves your experience and not what happens more universally.

Sure. Do you think anyone sharing personal experience and discussing and bringing their insight to the thread was claiming anything other than that?

There was a lot of discussion about the specific topic. I found the "Who gives a **** about your personal experience with this" odd for a discussion board where most of the discussion is people sharing what they think.

Personal insight is fine but only explains your experience. In the context of answering this question I’m saying anybody’s experience isn’t worth much, including my own.

 

[plinko]

I don't really know how to approach a topic like this, as much as I sometimes think I should weigh in, as somebody who used to fly my atheist flag high and proud around here and have come to discover in recent years that I was WRONG. And I am regretful, and humble about that, and I generally avoid the topic now because I know I don't have the words for much. And I try to stay humble, and grateful to God, above all.

I do think, tim, that true faith and reason can easily coexist, while dogma and reason usually can not.

At the end of the day it's humanity that is deeply flawed, yours truly included, and that is reflected in churches, religions, governments, and everywhere else.

How did you find your your atheist views were wrong?

There’s no way to say it without sounding loopy to a nonbeliever and with my history I totally get that. I had a spiritual awakening, not to mention a couple of supernatural experiences, that’s really the best I can offer here in response.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I wouldn't consider a list of 20 mostly unrecognizable politicians in the history of this country as a pretty long list. In fact, I would consider it almost completely unheard of.

No worries. We disagree there.

As I said though, thanks to all on the bigger discussion. It's been productive.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I am confused with your disagreement. There are a handful of politicians in the history of this country that have outwardly professed their atheism. None of us can recite their names off the top of our head as being atheist politicians. There have been studies showing that Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist over any other religion/race/sexuality/etc. Yet you still disagree with the statement that "it is almost completely unheard of to be an open atheist politician". You state that it isn't your actual experience, but I am curious who all these atheist politicians that have been elected that form that opinion.

I'm sorry if that's confusing. Someone said it was almost unheard of to be a politician and atheist. I wondered about that, too, and a two-second Google search returned a list of 20 people in the US and lots worldwide. I disagree that's "almost unheard of". I obviously don't have actual experience with the list of politicians. That's Google. And I've zero interest in arguing over semantics there of what's unheard of. That adds little to the discussion.

For my "actual experience", I was asked if I encountered atheist people in social situations or in business, and I replied "Yes".

This forum is an excellent example.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Personal insight is fine but only explains your experience. In the context of answering this question I’m saying anybody’s experience isn’t worth much, including my own.

We'll disagree there. For a forum like this, I put a high value on what people have personally experienced and the personal insights they contribute to the discussion.

 

[The Commish]

As an atheist, I ultimately believe that the conflict between faith and reason can never be resolved.

What does this mean? What conflict are you talking about?

Just that ultimately, one can’t reconcile religious belief with science. It’s one or the other.

That’s my belief. I don’t expect religious people to share it.

Of course they can't. Belief is a position that one holds beyond what the evidence/facts require. Science doesn't go beyond the evidence. There is no "conflict" there. They are two completely different POVs, but there's no reason they can't co-exist just fine. There are millions of people out there who manage to do it daily.

 

[AAABatteries]

Personal insight is fine but only explains your experience. In the context of answering this question I’m saying anybody’s experience isn’t worth much, including my own.

We'll disagree there. For a forum like this, I put a high value on what people have personally experienced and the personal insights they contribute to the discussion.

That's fine - we may be talking past each other - I'm not saying we shouldn't value people's personal experiences. I'm saying in answering rock's question it has little value in coming up with the "right" answer. It's definitely interesting what folks experience in different parts of the country and I agree with IK that most people's church experience isn't being bombarded with anti-science and radicalism. I trust almost all of us are smart enough to not participate if that was the case.

 

[Captain Cranks]

It shouldn't matter if they're born that way or not. They are human adults and if they choose to be gay, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone. If your religion considers being gay a sin and you think it's a choice, then choose not to be gay. But keep it to yourself. Don't impose what you think is a sin on others. And ESPECIALLY don't introduce/support legislation for it. Not unless you want your organization to slowly lose favor and die out.

What frustrates me about this religious-based war on sexuality is its hypocrisy. Want to claim its a "sin" and should not be condoned? Fine. Then why do you let yourselves and your kids be entertained by other sins like murder, rape, stealing, etc. This isn't about morality. It's about what a group of people have been taught to believe is icky and what is acceptable. The death of this hypocritical thinking which belittles others and tells them they're sinners for simply living as they wish is a good thing and I'm glad to see the country slowly moving beyond it.

 

[plinko]

I find that most people who judge others don’t have their scriptural priorities straight. Many people seem to enjoy hating, and finding justification for it. Sadly. Politicians use that and milk it for their own corrupt purposes.

People stuff, there is no answer, we are all given free will, and in this life we’re all subject to the consequences of that, it’s just a matter of how we handle it in our own lives.

As far as I’m concerned, Jesus didn’t say anything about gays, but He did say divorced people are living in permanent sin, which nails me to the wall… except that through God’s grace we’re all accepted and anything is possible for us.

 

[Rich Conway]

For my "actual experience", I was asked if I encountered atheist people in social situations or in business, and I replied "Yes".

This forum is an excellent example.

"This forum" shouldn't be included within "social situations or in business" in the context of whether people are willing to speak freely. Unlike those, this forum is anonymous and there aren't any social/financial repercussions from stating one's beliefs about religion (or anything else).

 

[dgreen]

It shouldn't matter if they're born that way or not. They are human adults and if they choose to be gay, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone. If your religion considers being gay a sin and you think it's a choice, then choose not to be gay. But keep it to yourself. Don't impose what you think is a sin on others. And ESPECIALLY don't introduce/support legislation for it. Not unless you want your organization to slowly lose favor and die out.

What frustrates me about this religious-based war on sexuality is its hypocrisy. Want to claim its a "sin" and should not be condoned? Fine. Then why do you let yourselves and your kids be entertained by other sins like murder, rape, stealing, etc. This isn't about morality. It's about what a group of people have been taught to believe is icky and what is acceptable. The death of this hypocritical thinking which belittles others and tells them they're sinners for simply living as they wish is a good thing and I'm glad to see the country slowly moving beyond it.

There are definitely a lot of hypocritical attitudes actions in the church related to the LGBTQ community. It's an area where I believe I've been growing over the years and I'm engaged in a decent amount of conversation with other church-goers.

However, the bolded comment is one of major discussion in churches. The vast majority of Christians I talk to who want to improve the relationship between the church and the LGBTQ community think they are hearing from society that it's not fine to claim it is a sin. The perception is that it isn't good enough to welcome a gay person into a church or a home or a friendship; what's needed is to approve their actions. And I think that's a really hard thing for many Christians to wrestle with. They want desperately to love others, but they struggle to know how to do that in all situations.

And I get why a gay person would be looking for acceptance of their actions and a church who doesn't say they are sinning. I can see how that would be important.

 

[Captain Cranks]

It shouldn't matter if they're born that way or not. They are human adults and if they choose to be gay, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone. If your religion considers being gay a sin and you think it's a choice, then choose not to be gay. But keep it to yourself. Don't impose what you think is a sin on others. And ESPECIALLY don't introduce/support legislation for it. Not unless you want your organization to slowly lose favor and die out.

What frustrates me about this religious-based war on sexuality is its hypocrisy. Want to claim its a "sin" and should not be condoned? Fine. Then why do you let yourselves and your kids be entertained by other sins like murder, rape, stealing, etc. This isn't about morality. It's about what a group of people have been taught to believe is icky and what is acceptable. The death of this hypocritical thinking which belittles others and tells them they're sinners for simply living as they wish is a good thing and I'm glad to see the country slowly moving beyond it.

There are definitely a lot of hypocritical attitudes actions in the church related to the LGBTQ community. It's an area where I believe I've been growing over the years and I'm engaged in a decent amount of conversation with other church-goers.

However, the bolded comment is one of major discussion in churches. The vast majority of Christians I talk to who want to improve the relationship between the church and the LGBTQ community think they are hearing from society that it's not fine to claim it is a sin. The perception is that it isn't good enough to welcome a gay person into a church or a home or a friendship; what's needed is to approve their actions. And I think that's a really hard thing for many Christians to wrestle with. They want desperately to love others, but they struggle to know how to do that in all situations.

And I get why a gay person would be looking for acceptance of their actions and a church who doesn't say they are sinning. I can see how that would be important.

Ultimately it's on the Christian community to change their attitude about it so I'm glad to hear you're a part of that change.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Here's a question for those who feel the demise of religion is a bad thing. Let's say there was no such demise over the last 30 or so years and our society was just as patriarchal and anti-gay as it was in the 1990s. Do you feel this is an improvement relative to today? If not, what is your solution to unequal treatment of women and the LGBTQ community?

 

[Joe Bryant]

For my "actual experience", I was asked if I encountered atheist people in social situations or in business, and I replied "Yes".

This forum is an excellent example.

"This forum" shouldn't be included within "social situations or in business" in the context of whether people are willing to speak freely. Unlike those, this forum is anonymous and there aren't any social/financial repercussions from stating one's beliefs about religion (or anything else).

As I said earlier, I've had similar experiences in real life.

 

[dgreen]

It shouldn't matter if they're born that way or not. They are human adults and if they choose to be gay, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone. If your religion considers being gay a sin and you think it's a choice, then choose not to be gay. But keep it to yourself. Don't impose what you think is a sin on others. And ESPECIALLY don't introduce/support legislation for it. Not unless you want your organization to slowly lose favor and die out.

What frustrates me about this religious-based war on sexuality is its hypocrisy. Want to claim its a "sin" and should not be condoned? Fine. Then why do you let yourselves and your kids be entertained by other sins like murder, rape, stealing, etc. This isn't about morality. It's about what a group of people have been taught to believe is icky and what is acceptable. The death of this hypocritical thinking which belittles others and tells them they're sinners for simply living as they wish is a good thing and I'm glad to see the country slowly moving beyond it.

There are definitely a lot of hypocritical attitudes actions in the church related to the LGBTQ community. It's an area where I believe I've been growing over the years and I'm engaged in a decent amount of conversation with other church-goers.

However, the bolded comment is one of major discussion in churches. The vast majority of Christians I talk to who want to improve the relationship between the church and the LGBTQ community think they are hearing from society that it's not fine to claim it is a sin. The perception is that it isn't good enough to welcome a gay person into a church or a home or a friendship; what's needed is to approve their actions. And I think that's a really hard thing for many Christians to wrestle with. They want desperately to love others, but they struggle to know how to do that in all situations.

And I get why a gay person would be looking for acceptance of their actions and a church who doesn't say they are sinning. I can see how that would be important.

Ultimately it's on the Christian community to change their attitude about it so I'm glad to hear you're a part of that change.

When you say "change their attitude about it", what's the "it"? How they treat the LGBTQ community or is "it" the issue of whether it is a sin? Or both?

 

[Captain Cranks]

When you say "change their attitude about it", what's the "it"? How they treat the LGBTQ community or is "it" the issue of whether it is a sin? Or both?

Fair question. From a moral perspective I think the "it" is judging it to be a sin. Different people want to have different kinds of sex with each other. One version isn't morally better than another as long as it's between consenting adults. Different people want to love each other and raise a family together. One version isn't morally better than another. Once you get rid of that judgment, then treating people equally would be a lot easier.

 

[Hawks64]

We don’t only have to talk about the fringe elements of the church. The mainstream church has done plenty of reprehensible things like collecting and spending $40M to try to prevent gay people from marrying.

Or you know....this. More catholic child sex abuse or this hiding sexual abusing priests.

 

[The Commish]

When you say "change their attitude about it", what's the "it"? How they treat the LGBTQ community or is "it" the issue of whether it is a sin? Or both?

Fair question. From a moral perspective I think the "it" is judging it to be a sin. Different people want to have different kinds of sex with each other. One version isn't morally better than another as long as it's between consenting adults. Different people want to love each other and raise a family together. One version isn't morally better than another. Once you get rid of that judgment, then treating people equally would be a lot easier.

Here's the thing with this discussion. For a Christian, it should NOT matter a single bit. Why? Because if a Christian is being honest with one's self, they know that even if "homosexaul sex" isn't a sin, the person is still a sinner and that makes them just like the Christian from an eternal life perspective. Christains believe that every single person is broken and in need of salvation for an eternal life with God. The transgressions simply don't matter to God once you seek a relationship with him. This assignment of "degree" to sins is 1000000000% man made and not supported in any meaningful way in Biblical teaching. Perhaps this is what you're getting at with your final sentence GB, but it's absolutely maddening to a guy like me to watch Christians do this sort of thing. If it doesn't matter to God in terms of relationship with him, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[JAA]

One thing I havn't seen stated is that authority figures in religion don't have a monopoly on abusing their power. They may be #1, but prolly only because of their size. Here is a general list off the top of my head.

• Religion
• Boy Scouts
• Sports
• Workplace
• Family

What I am curious about is what % of the pedeophiles focused on children because they did not have an adult outlet which wasn't against the law or demonized?

 

[dgreen]

When you say "change their attitude about it", what's the "it"? How they treat the LGBTQ community or is "it" the issue of whether it is a sin? Or both?

Fair question. From a moral perspective I think the "it" is judging it to be a sin. Different people want to have different kinds of sex with each other. One version isn't morally better than another as long as it's between consenting adults. Different people want to love each other and raise a family together. One version isn't morally better than another. Once you get rid of that judgment, then treating people equally would be a lot easier.

Yeah, I can see that. But I'm not sure people should throw out their interpretations (I like that word better than "judgment" here, but maybe you are using "judgment" differently than an interpretation) in order to treat people equally. I think we need to treat people well even if we have reached a certain interpretation/judgment about what they are doing. I think we should be able to hold to a particular judgment AND treat someone like a human by recognizing that how we treat others is more important than those judgments.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Here's the thing with this discussion. For a Christian, it should NOT matter a single bit. Why? Because if a Christian is being honest with one's self, they know that even if "homosexaul sex" isn't a sin, the person is still a sinner and that makes them just like the Christian from an eternal life perspective. Christains believe that every single person is broken and in need of salvation for an eternal life with God. The transgressions simply don't matter to God once you seek a relationship with him. This assignment of "degree" to sins is 1000000000% man made and not supported in any meaningful way in Biblical teaching. Perhaps this is what you're getting at with your final sentence GB, but it's absolutely maddening to a guy like me to watch Christians do this sort of thing. If it doesn't matter to God in terms of relationship with him, it doesn't matter to me.

I can appreciate that attitude. I think it still leaves Christians with the difficult position of whether acceptance is condoning the behavior. If it's not considered a sin, then there is no math that needs to be done.

 

[dgreen]

Here's the thing with this discussion. For a Christian, it should NOT matter a single bit. Why? Because if a Christian is being honest with one's self, they know that even if "homosexaul sex" isn't a sin, the person is still a sinner and that makes them just like the Christian from an eternal life perspective. Christains believe that every single person is broken and in need of salvation for an eternal life with God. The transgressions simply don't matter to God once you seek a relationship with him. This assignment of "degree" to sins is 1000000000% man made and not supported in any meaningful way in Biblical teaching. Perhaps this is what you're getting at with your final sentence GB, but it's absolutely maddening to a guy like me to watch Christians do this sort of thing. If it doesn't matter to God in terms of relationship with him, it doesn't matter to me.

I can appreciate that attitude. I think it still leaves Christians with the difficult position of whether acceptance is condoning the behavior. If it's not considered a sin, then there is no math that needs to be done.

Yeah, I heard that a lot among my Christian friends; that tension between accepting and condoning. I actually just had that conversation with a group of people last week.

How does this work in your life? Do you have something analogous where you are accepting and compassionate towards someone or a particular group even though you hold to a belief that what they did was wrong? Or do you require that you alter your judgments in order to accept them?

 

[SWC]

the idea that anyone thinks they get to be the one to condone love between two adults is astoundingly hypocritical take that to the bank brohans

 

[SWC]

be like christ and just love everyone its a hell of a lot easier than walking around the world judging everyone and everything and thinking you are holier than thou take that to the bank bromigos