Limp Ditka
Footballguy
.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
The Downfall Of Bonds Begins? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Limp Ditka
- Start date
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Now all they have to do is prove it.
Hammered Finz
Footballguy
a sub .150 average and no homers is a good indicator too..
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Didn't he admit to using steroids but claimed to not know that they were indeed steroids. Seems like it would be difficult to dispute that.
Red Herring
Footballguy
...and the earth is round and water is wet and can't we start investigating players that I don't know took 'roids?
C
Cunning Linguist
Guest
paging Clear Cream
HellToupee
Footballguy
syphillis ?
Brave Sir Robin
Footballguy
As a casual observer, I just don't want him to be allowed break Aaron's or even Ruth's homerun records asterix or not..
bostonfred
Footballguy
That's the biggest thing. Second on the list is whether he should be allowed in the hall of fame, but it's just not right for him to set such an important record by cheating.
Red Herring
Footballguy
As a devil's advocate only, why would his record be tainted? As more info comes out, it seems easier to list the players that weren't using than those that were. As long as records are set on an even playing field, where is the problem?BTW, I think its silly to refer to it as "Ruth's" record. Baseball has to be the only sport to consider the #2 guy the record holder. The only guy with the record has 756 MLB HRs.
ETA: even playing field referred to the roided up pitchers, didnt think I was clear
Last edited by a moderator:
Brave Sir Robin
Footballguy
I am a casual observer and here is the entire extent of my baseball knowledge and I am sure some facts are wrong.MacGuire beat the season record set by Maris. Maris had fewer games and didn't use steroids. Sosa was right behind Mac that season.
Ruth's record was broken by Aaron after standing for decades. What Ruth used wasn't exactly "performance enhancing." I doubt Aaron used anything untoward.
Baseball strikes started a nasty professional sports habit .
Baseball is exempt from anti-trust rules.
The Kissing Bandit has big bujubees.
Red Herring
Footballguy
Just wondering as a casual observer, does the fact he was facing pitchers/fielders that were using as well still give you the same view?I agree on all your other points, though I can't say I see the last as a problem
The Jerminator
Footballguy
Two weeks ago (before the season began) I bet a buddy at work that Bonds would never hit another major league homerun.
I just might win... 
cobalt_27
Footballguy
That wouldn't suck. But, I'm guessing Ruth falls to the steroid freak, and Hank is still in jeopardy. This perjury thing might have some legs to it, but at this point, they're simply convening to figure out if there's enough material evidence to demonstrate "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Bonds KNEW he was using steroids and, thus, lied under oath. This could take a while...enough time for Bonds and his cranky knees to cobble together a few more dingers.Two weeks ago (before the season began) I bet a buddy at work that Bonds would never hit another major league homerun.
tommyboy
Footballguy
this still cracks me up. It was no secret Bonds was juiced the last 4-5 years, everyone knew and anyone that didn't was willfully ignorant. He was loved for his power and he was a one man "shock and awe" campaign. The press ate him up, and he won multiple MVP's, all with the blessings of the fans, the media and Major League Baseball.
Now he's a bad man. LOL. He's the same cheating dude he always was. Seems like fans have amnesia here and now Barry's the scapegoat. They should scrap every record set in the Majors the last 6 years. But to all of a sudden pretend like this is a shock and Barry is the worst man alive because he cheated is even worse IMO.
Now he's a bad man. LOL. He's the same cheating dude he always was. Seems like fans have amnesia here and now Barry's the scapegoat. They should scrap every record set in the Majors the last 6 years. But to all of a sudden pretend like this is a shock and Barry is the worst man alive because he cheated is even worse IMO.
Brave Sir Robin
Footballguy
Steroids helps the hitters more IMO.To your point, Satahiro Oh (sp) was a Japanese player that hit more HR. The field's were shorter and the pitchers were weaker but the Japanese kept pimping him as better than Aaron. Aaron was magnanimous about the issue. Class guy.Just wondering as a casual observer, does the fact he was facing pitchers/fielders that were using as well still give you the same view?I agree on all your other points, though I can't say I see the last as a problem
Brave Sir Robin
Footballguy
...or Jim Brown for that matter except that they were peerless giants of their day and the decades following.
bostonfred
Footballguy
That's not true. A lot of people rooted against him because he was obviously using steroids, and have been saying that it would be disgraceful for him to break the record. I've had this conversation countless times over the past few years.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
I don't think anyone living outside of SF ever thought of him as anything BUT a "bad man."I think this is sort of revisionist history you're making here. We (and, I mean "we" the collective fan base) were really pretty ignorant about steroids up until 2000 or so. We didn't know what andro was, we didn't know how Creatine fit into the equation, if at all. Was it injected? What's this Clear or Cream business? We didn't know jack ####. Maybe you did. But, I'll be honest, I had no clue. About any of it. McGwire was the first to make me think about it. And, from there, it's taken a few years to put all the characters and pieces of the puzzle together. I don't think this is much of a departure for the average fan.
Barry's not the scapegoat--he's the symbol. And, I think it's totally fair to demonize guys that, quite frankly, deserve every bit of vitriol we can dish out. Barry has lied and skirted the issue. He's taken no responsibility for any of this. And, now he's stomping all over some pretty hallowed records as a cheat. Giambi, Sheff, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, et al., are equally culpable. They are cheats every bit as much as Bonds (maybe the degree to which, or the length of time is different with each one; but, the principle still applies). But, how they differ from Bonds is that they're largely irrelevant now. Bonds is different because he is very relevant. And, I'll be happy for the day to come when he is largely irrelevant. But, I'm afraid that he will be considered the fraudulent home run king at some point soon.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Red Herring
Footballguy
Most? I'm more inclined now to believe Canseco's original figures. Seems like every day another name or 2 is added to the list of users. I'm not as into baseball as I am football, but I'd imagine the roto guys could tell you who's fastball added 5-10 mph during the steroid era. Again, not as well versed on baseball, but I would think it would be a big advantage for pitchers to add extra strength, especially those who rely on a pitch like a slider or some form of nasty dancing fastball. Being able to add serious MPH to a pitch with a filthy break seems like just as big an advantage
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Isn't a "record" simply historically telling us what happened? If Bonds hits more home runs than anyone else, then the record will state that he's #1 in that particular category.
The bigger problem is that we're so focused on records, particularly in the history of baseball, so the number / record itself is more important than the story behind it. Bonds cheated his way to the top, but he's still on top.
If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks. If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists
), this wouldn't be as big of a deal.
The bigger problem is that we're so focused on records, particularly in the history of baseball, so the number / record itself is more important than the story behind it. Bonds cheated his way to the top, but he's still on top.
If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks. If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists
), this wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Red Herring
Footballguy
Wow.Isn't a "record" simply historically telling us what happened? If Bonds hits more home runs than anyone else, then the record will state that he's #1 in that particular category.
The bigger problem is that we're so focused on records, particularly in the history of baseball, so the number / record itself is more important than the story behind it. Bonds cheated his way to the top, but he's still on top.
If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks. If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists
I haven't thought of records that way since my early teens before the sports bug bit.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Juan Rincon Minnesota Twins May 2, 2005 Rafael Betancourt Cleveland Indians July 8, 2005Most? I'm more inclined now to believe Canseco's original figures. Seems like every day another name or 2 is added to the list of users. I'm not as into baseball as I am football, but I'd imagine the roto guys could tell you who's fastball added 5-10 mph during the steroid era. Again, not as well versed on baseball, but I would think it would be a big advantage for pitchers to add extra strength, especially those who rely on a pitch like a slider or some form of nasty dancing fastball. Being able to add serious MPH to a pitch with a filthy break seems like just as big an advantage
Ryan Franklin Seattle Mariners August 2, 2005
Felix Heredia New York Mets October 18, 2005
Things are not always as they appear.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
This is all very true. And, I've never been in support for the asterisk or the wiping clean the record books or anything like that. If Bonds breaks the record, then he breaks the record, and Hank Aaron moves down to #2 on the list.It's just a shame that such a great man and such a great player will be reduced to second place by an ingrate who needed illegal chemistry to be the new home run king.If we all did our homework, we wouldn't need to pretend things didn't happen or put asterisks. If we weren't so obsessed with records (I saw on SportsCenter the other day that they had a "record" for most consecutive NBA games with 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists
tommyboy
Footballguy
roids have been in the news since back when Brady Anderson went from 10 homers to 40 homers a year. Ken Caminiti ring a bell?if people were so concerned about Bonds then the outcry of public scorn should have started long ago, not now all of a sudden when he's knocking on the door of history.
bostonfred
Footballguy
You're right, the accomplishments matter. I don't think Anderson, Caminiti or Bonds should go to the Hall of Fame.roids have been in the news since back when Brady Anderson went from 10 homers to 40 homers a year. Ken Caminiti ring a bell?if people were so concerned about Bonds then the outcry of public scorn should have started long ago, not now all of a sudden when he's knocking on the door of history.
I'm not rooting for Anderson, Caminiti or Bonds to break the career home runs record.
It's pretty simple, really. I don't think people should be recognized as achieving the highest levels in baseball by cheating.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
You act as though everyone knew back then that Brady and Cami were juiced. Few suspected it back then; even fewer knew about it. You really sound tainted by what you know now. Or, at least, if you were the enlightened one back then, you're certainly imposing a greater amount of knowledge base on the average Joe fan than he actually had at his disposal back then. With 20/20 hindsight, it all makes sense now. But, back then, I totally disagree with you...we were much more ignorant and naive about it. Even as recently as Sosa and McGwire, we were still confused and skeptical.roids have been in the news since back when Brady Anderson went from 10 homers to 40 homers a year. Ken Caminiti ring a bell?if people were so concerned about Bonds then the outcry of public scorn should have started long ago, not now all of a sudden when he's knocking on the door of history.
But, now, everyone regards McGwire and Sosa as nothing mroe than punchlines.
And, irrelevant.
Bonds is current.
But, I understand...there are those that are going out of their way to protect the cheat and minimize his steroid use by throwing out red herrings right and left.
tommyboy
Footballguy
here's an article from 1995, for those fans with selective memories.
a search on Findarticles.com using "steroid baseball" returns 1659 articles
a search on Findarticles.com using "steroid baseball" returns 1659 articles
as they say, read it all.so you see this "scandal" is actually a hush up that has taken at least 11 years of MLB executives ignoring and therefore encouraging steroid abuse for it finally to come to today where its all Barry Bonds problem now.
tommyboy
Footballguy
I don't know, I used to be a serious baseball geek up until the strike season of 94 then I stopped being a fan forever. I hate barry bonds, he's a ####### cheating lying #######. However, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the current state of the game, the mismanagement by the executives of the game, the corruption of the game and its players and the willfull ignorance of its supposed "fans" that cheer when the star is hitting homeruns and winning MVPS year after year with a size 12 hat and freakish upper body, then all of a sudden turn on the same guy when it is "shockingly revealed" he cheated. Its neither a shock nor an accident, its hypocrisy of the highest order and everyone involved in the game is guilty.You act as though everyone knew back then that Brady and Cami were juiced. Few suspected it back then; even fewer knew about it. You really sound tainted by what you know now. Or, at least, if you were the enlightened one back then, you're certainly imposing a greater amount of knowledge base on the average Joe fan than he actually had at his disposal back then. With 20/20 hindsight, it all makes sense now. But, back then, I totally disagree with you...we were much more ignorant and naive about it. Even as recently as Sosa and McGwire, we were still confused and skeptical.roids have been in the news since back when Brady Anderson went from 10 homers to 40 homers a year. Ken Caminiti ring a bell?if people were so concerned about Bonds then the outcry of public scorn should have started long ago, not now all of a sudden when he's knocking on the door of history.
But, now, everyone regards McGwire and Sosa as nothing mroe than punchlines.
And, irrelevant.
Bonds is current.
But, I understand...there are those that are going out of their way to protect the cheat and minimize his steroid use by throwing out red herrings right and left.
tommyboy
Footballguy
how long have you felt this way? I could care less if he breaks the record, honestly, because the records mean nothing the way the game is today. Dinky ballparks, juiced ball, juiced bats, juiced players, horribly thin pitching due to way too many bottom feeder teams, only a few teams have the resources to compete each year....the list goes on and on. After the 94 strike MLB wanted lots of homers and they juiced the ball. The game has been tainted ever since.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
How long have I felt that his assault on Ruth and Aaron was a sham? I don't know. I was naive enough when he broke McGwire's "record" (and, for the record, I still regard Maris as the single-season HR king, but that's another story) to be on an innocent-until-proven guilty mode. I don't know when I "KNEW" Bonds used. I always treated it with some skepticism, even though I despised the guy. I gave him, and the lot, the benefit of the doubt. But, when the grand jury stuff got leaked, and Conte and Anderson went up for indictment...there wasn't an "ahah" moment, but I somehow came around to feeling there was enough evidence (aside from his grotesque body, which should've been the obvious give-away) that the whole thing was just a farce.
And, now, having read most of "Shadows," it's abundantly clear now.
So, the whole thing is a farce. And, while I can accept the small ballparks and expansion...these are natural permutations to the game that have occurred throughout history. Recidivist cheating, on the other hand, is not.
The only possible thing Bonds can do at this point to salvage any tiny amount of respect is to retire before he breaks Aaron's record.
Once he breaks that, no amount of astericks will be enough.
It would be the ultimate way of him telling everyone that he realizes that his roid-inflated numbers should, in no way, ever eclipse those of a true home run legend.
Once he breaks that, no amount of astericks will be enough.
It would be the ultimate way of him telling everyone that he realizes that his roid-inflated numbers should, in no way, ever eclipse those of a true home run legend.
Why does everyone forget the Bonds was Baseball's best hitter before the steroid ere? Lets face it most of the baseball players took steroid or drugs that enhanced their abilities. Why does Roger Clemons get a free pass? Can you say that he has not took any thing? Pitchers were on the juice just like the hitters it was part of the game. Just like in the NFL the 70's was its Steroid era. Nobody holds the Steelers back for all the usuage that the team had.
To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment?
To me Bonds has not faild a test since they started testing. And as far as the books the information in it was obtainted illegal, but that seems to be ok with everyone?
To me it comes down to them trying to name a big time player as the escape goat for the mess that Bud Selig and the owners let happen. Why Bonds he has not been the best friend of reporters so he gets a bad rap by the fans. I would like to think that his color of his skin does not take part, but do you really think that Mark McGuire would be gettting treatment?
To me Bonds has not faild a test since they started testing. And as far as the books the information in it was obtainted illegal, but that seems to be ok with everyone?
You're right about Bonds being great before he started roiding so heavily. That's the shame of all of this. No one is going to remember him for being the great hitter with decent power, a good glove, and great baserunning skills that he once had. His legacy is now the huge-headed cheater that is about to break a sacred record.I wonder if Bonds would turn back the clock and just remain the .300 32 Hrs 120 RBI- guy he used to be if he could. He would have still been a hall of famer, but he wouldn't be universally hated like he is now.
