whitewizard said:
i get that when people say kickers are all about luck they get pissed off thinking about how bironas kicked 8 FGs decided seating in a playoff game and the championship, or how a kicker from carolina or somewhere decided to have 5 long FGs and do the same thing. yes yes i know the difference between the best and the barely mentionable is insignificant, but i put that blame entirely on you and your league's scoring.
it is not a kickers fault you reward the same amount of points for everything. is a 80 yard TD pass as easy as a 8 yard pass HELL NO!! is a 18 yard kick as easy as a 48 yard kick again the answer comes back HELL NO!! my league rewards 1 point for PAAs, 0-39 yard FGs with 3 points, 40-49 with 4, 50+ with 5, as well as corresponding subtractions of points equivalent to what they could gain if they made it. for the smal minded that want Ks gone that would be: -1 for missed PAAs -3 for 30-39 yard MFGs, -4 for 40-49 MFGs, and -5 for 50+ MFGs. it makes a significant difference between ryan lindell, and the jason elam types.
yes there will be weeks where elam is surpassed by lindell, in fact there will be a couple weeks where that will happen. just as hines ward has been outscored by matt jones. a entire position should not be disbanded because of infrequency of use and bad weather.
if you want to say there is no elite kicker that needs to be taken and can contribute like a TE fine. if you want to say that no kicker will ever be able to compare stats and production with a #1 player like a LT or brady while on fire fine. just think though brady gets about 30 chances to score points a day, LT about 35, a kicker 6 maybe 8 attempts if the team is having a hard time punching it in? give a kicker 20 FGA or PAA in a game and watch their production and see the difference between the good and the average.
EDIT TO ADD: well kickers don;t get that many opportunities. Which is why they add luck. Thanks for giving me another great argument point.
yes kickers with an average amount of attempts are not much more than luck sitting on your bench waiting for a chance. that is why it is up to you and your league to modify its scoring so that the kicker is actually valuable and makes a difference.
The NFL has changed its rules over the year to challenge and help kickers why can't you?
Our league scoring is very different, rewarding more for making long ones and taking away more for missing short ones as well as a massive penalty for missing an extra point. Your argument still doesn;t address this one fact: Kickers are responsible for a large element of luck that has no place in a game that is about skill. If you want to win based on luck, then go play roulettes or the slot machines. FANTASY football is a game meant to be determined by which owner is better than the other, not who ipicked the kicker that would be luckiest in week 14 or whatever week.And don;t go to the Bironas thing. I won games because of Bironas, as well as Kris Brown's double 5 FG efforts that included like 7 from 50+. That bull***t about "well you must have lost because of a kicker there's no possibility that you're simply right" has been said already, countered, and is no longer useful. Please make an argument based on some kind of fact without a personal attack or something you simply cannot back up with fact.
wdcrob said:
There is NO scoring system for kickers that will let a talented FF player gain an edge over his or her FF opponents. And that's the problem. Unless you want to increase the element of luck in your FF league (which is fine if you do, lots of people love roulette and craps) you should ditch the kicker.
Rewarding FF skill, or including kickers - it's a mutually exclusive choice.
DING DING DING
I think my problem with your arguement is that you put the blame for a kickers production all on the kicker. Would LT be as affective is the chargers were down 40 after the first? no because they would be passing all day. Kickers are just more affected by their teams overall production. I get your point that there will be about a small point difference between a top 5 kicker and a bottom tiered guy, That makes a playoff race though. We are trying to compare guys with similiar attempts for points not a kicker and gonzo. You can be in or out because of those few points points. I would rather my season come down to a kicker that i trust to score on about 83% of his attempts, than some guy like chansi stuckey who's stat line has 32 receptions for the year 3 of which is a TD.
If you can tell me how starting chansey stuckey, bobby wade or someone of that caliber as a extra flex guy requires more skill than luck to pick up or draft and start as opposed to starting a kicker who is extremely more reliable to actually get a single point week to week. I might consider the true value of a kicker as opposed to a extra flex guy like many other anti kickers propose.
Real simple fantasy football is all about luck. To me eliminating kickers for an extra flex guy who gets a handoff or reception once every 6 times to a kickers attempts increases the chance that luck makes a bigger factor in a game. Or if you just want to get rid of that position all together i have a problem with that as well because there are alot of points scored that are not being accounted for. If you want to get rid of the kicker take out special teams from a defenses score as well because they affect things much more infrequently and add more luck that the so called "skillful fantasy players" can not control. So why get rid of kickers? So that everyone can go draft flyers that will have less production and points than a kicker? What sense does that make?
Lets look at some guys who will be available in those late rounds for a extra flex position where kickers are normally taken?
How about a sleeper candidate many thought would make a difference for their team as a late round selection: devin hester, a kicker many were high on nick folk who did not perform well. Any geusses how the
"skill players" who drafted hester did compared to those who favor the luck of kickers?
hester: 67 points in my league/ folk: 110 points.
How about ochocinco a guy many
skill players were not high on but would have predicted he would outperform a kicker right?
ocho: 62 points/ josh brown: 114 (he actually outscored reggie wayne on the season)
The WRs who rounded out the 25-30 places included names such as houshmandzadeh, lee evans, steve breaston, isaac bruce, and muhsin muhammad they averaged:
89.4 points on the season.
compared to (honestly not sure the selection of kickers you were talking about) so the kickers from 13-17 positions, people most had a chance at getting included nate kaeding, matt stover, neil rackers, robbie gould, and josh brown averaged:
138.6 on the season.
a game/season deciding 40.2 points
We are not even talking about flyers here we are talking about receivers who's production places them at about 24th-60th amongst other receivers. 4th-8thish round selections are being outperformed by 11th and 12 round kickers. The way a FFB team is put together and functions i have no problem with that fact of life but why eliminate a position that routinely outscores prominant players year in and year out?
Yes the best kicker gostkowski had 142 points so there was really only about 4 points between the average of the bottom of the barrell and the best who most did not think about. Though he actually scored more than 3 of the best WRs. Honestly though did you draft ochocinco thinking he would get 62 points. No, most did not think gostkowski would be the best kicker.
But how many thought fitzgerald would be the best receiver? How many thought
randy moss would be the fifth best receiver this year behind fitzgerald, calvin johnson, andre johnson, and a bit out of left field
greg jennings? What about breylon edwards he layed a big steamer on the field with every dropped pass,
he was not even in the top 30!!! How many thought that was going to happen? Do you know the last time there were at least 2 guys in the same top 5 for 2 years in a row? It was almost 5 years ago with marvin harrison and javon walker in 04, and 05. Kickers are near impossible to predict for big totals and consistent big gain, almost as hard to predict for as receivers. Well that is just WRs how about RBs? How about the always consistent clinton portis? Well 5 Ks outperformed him last year. It is a crap shoot and most kickers even the really bad ones outperform receivers in the top 30.
You want to get rid of the kicker because they are not consistent when compared to their own stat lines or other kickers? Fine who will you replace them with? devin hester, eddie royal, justin gage, antwaan randle el, bobby wade? how about cotchery, houshmandzadeh, lee evans? Every single one of those guys are outperformed by at least 30 points by the #18th ranked kicker with 101 points. the icing is that the player would be targeted and drafted in very late rounds where you would draft the extra flex position many would like to have. Or if you just want to get rid of the kicker please explain to me your plan to account for the average 127.3 point absence left by a top 12 kicker in your lineup?
Fantasy football is luck. Drafting more guys who get less opportunities than kickers to produce points increases that chance that luck will affect the outcome luck has on your game.
If you can explain to me how going without an average 127 points is a good thing, or how drafting a flyer like stuckey or hester to fill an extra flex position requires more skill, rests on less luck, while still resulting in less points scored than if you had drafted a kicker; then i might start to see your point. In the meantime getting a quality kicker who has proven to be good, rather than a flyer like hester results in at least a 33 point advantage for me the less skillful player at the end of the year, and adds more realism to the game of fantasy football, and really makes me happier.
Please if none of this has convinced any of you the value a kicker has, please tell me your plan. Do you want a special teams selection, do you want to change their scoring system? What do you want to do to balance out the 127 point hole from your roster, or the 35 point difference from available flex players drafted in similiar rounds?
It is all a matter of the package you want your luck in. I like mine in the form of scrawny consistent foreigners, others like theirs in the form of unreliable 3rd and 4th string backups. I will take the kicker and own your backup.
Great idea. ThanksLook I just get tired of people complaining about kicker. I think there is room in the NFL for a few guys that aren't all that macho.
Great idea. Thanks
