What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (4 Viewers)

So.  Just got back an opinion from the La. Supreme Court that crushes my opponent, changes the law in an area I don't normally practice in but took a case pro bono that I had to convert to an hourly rate that I never expected to collect, and sets me up for a nice solid payday early next year when this case finally goes to trial because the defendant will have to pay my fees.

Happy election day!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I swear I posted about this last year or the year before, but can't find it.  Every year an old client of the firm comes in and has us fill out his paperwork to show he hasn't worked in the last year and is still entitled to LHWCA benefits.  He can't read or write and we refuse to accept any money from him because he's delightful and just needs help filling out a 1-page thing.  So instead he brings in huge amounts of food and booze for us.  Today was the day this year.  Two huge trays of cookies, three giant bottles of hard liquor, a magnum of wine, and an entire sheet cake.

My end of the year is going to suck when he dies.  
What are we talking here?  Just making sure this is all de minimis...

ETA: I remember the pains of having to turn down gifts* while at the public defender's office.  100 dollar handshakes, free services (landscaping, cleaning, etc.), dinner/drinks if seen out, and even once like the mega-pack from Omaha Steaks (called the boss on that one to try to convince him to let me do an office cookout).  

*Was also offered, on two separate occasions, lap dances.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
that drives me crazy, but the whole having your secretary or client's name on a printed out text or email because it came from their email inbox comes up a lot.   I see more and more judges not allowing it, or at least requiring additional authentication about how the document is generated.
I generally talk to opposing counsel beforehand regarding potential authentication issues of text messages.  Usually we can reach an agreement/stipulation if both clients review it and confirm it is true and correct.  Also, the family law judges* in my jurisdiction seem to have interpreted the more relaxed rules of evidence in civil court to basically mean everything gets admitted and the judge just decides what weight to give the evidence if authentication appears an issue. 

*Every single family law judge right now was a prior criminal attorney so I think the sentiment is that in civil court the rules of evidence are more like suggestions. 

 
Preparing for two appellate arguments on 4-5 hours of sleep because of my two young kids. I wish I could go back in time and punch my pre-kid self every time I used to complain about being tired. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
What are we talking here?  Just making sure this is all de minimis...

ETA: I remember the pains of having to turn down gifts* while at the public defender's office.  100 dollar handshakes, free services (landscaping, cleaning, etc.), dinner/drinks if seen out, and even once like the mega-pack from Omaha Steaks (called the boss on that one to try to convince him to let me do an office cookout).  

*Was also offered, on two separate occasions, lap dances.  
A Prosecutor's Office I worked for some decades back had a pro bono policy.  We each had to handle two pro bono matters each year. The office decided the best way to avoid conflict was to take appeals of social security benefit denials.  That struck me as odd because every client I had was younger than 40 and a biker, the sort likely to end up in court on the wrong side of a prosecution.

Anyway one of my clients was the Sgt. at Arms for a local outlaw biker gang. He had a bad back according to his paperwork and I ran through the appeals protocols.  I got him signed up successfully. (As far as I understand it if you appeal a denial with an attorney you will get the situation reversed 100% of the time and that indeed was my experience.)  I also got him a few years of back benefits.  he was very happy with my services and he offered me his "old Lady" for some fun.  I declined the offer telling him my "old Lady" had matters well in hand, but I did thank him for the offer. He did, then, invite me to a party at his house in lieu of the romp.  As he and his leather clad old lady left my office they were calculating how much meth his back award would buy.

That night I drove past his home.  There was a raging party going on.  I parked a bit away and watched for a time noticing that several of our undercover officers were doing the same.  I saw my guy, the one with the bad back lift a motorcycle through an upstairs bedroom window onto the roof.  he tried to ride it/jump it to the roof of the next door neighbor's house.  He failed. he next got back on to the roof and was out there with a quarter barrel and some biker chicks having a few beers when the cops came swooping in to break up the festivities.  he made a mighty toss of that quarter barrel at the cops as they were moving from the public sidewalk up his walkway.  For a man with a bad back prohibiting work he certainly was an active fellow.

I never did receive any benefit from him for my service, though there were the offers of hospitality.

Since then I have had folks send acknowledgements to me at my office, Event Tickets, and bottles of booze mostly, but also some nice Christmas treat baskets.  I always turn them over to the Office Administrator to address pursuant to our guidelines.  I also once had a gentleman come to my office with an envelope he laid upon my desk.  He explained he had no intent to violate the law and then got up to leave.  He forgot his envelope which was about 3/4 of an inch think with something rectangular and pliable about 6.14 inches by 2.61 inches inside.  I stopped him and reminded him he had forgotten something.  He stated I must be mistaken.  I told him it was his mistake.  He took his envelope and I walked him out of my office to his car.  It was a limo.  In the back of the limo were two young gals in lingerie.  Both Asian.  He said perhaps we could talk some more.  I declined.  As it turned out a task force had him under surveillance.  I learned this when I called an officer I worked with to report the matter so that he might begin investigating.

I love Asian girls in lingerie.

 
I once had a mother daughter duo in a pretrial conference, both attractive and dressed in club wear offer to show me a good time if I could see my way clear to dismissing the daughters charges.  The daughter had just turned 18 and the mom was probably under 40.  The mom flashed her box and started unbuttoning her blouse, as if maybe we would get busy in an anteroom to the courtroom where we held pre-trial conferences.  I left the room and set the matter for trial.  When the judge asked if there was any hope of reaching a plea agreement I had to tell him no, over the protestations of the mother who insisted we could come to an agreement.  I then told the judge that I was unwilling to return to the pre-trial room and to set the matter to trial.  At the end of the docket when things had cleared out the judge asked me what happened.  I told him it was nothing that I should discuss with him.  that kind of chit chat could cause prejudice, or so I believed.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
A Prosecutor's Office I worked for some decades back had a pro bono policy.  We each had to handle two pro bono matters each year. The office decided the best way to avoid conflict was to take appeals of social security benefit denials.  That struck me as odd because every client I had was younger than 40 and a biker, the sort likely to end up in court on the wrong side of a prosecution.

Anyway one of my clients was the Sgt. at Arms for a local outlaw biker gang. He had a bad back according to his paperwork and I ran through the appeals protocols.  I got him signed up successfully. (As far as I understand it if you appeal a denial with an attorney you will get the situation reversed 100% of the time and that indeed was my experience.)  I also got him a few years of back benefits.  he was very happy with my services and he offered me his "old Lady" for some fun.  I declined the offer telling him my "old Lady" had matters well in hand, but I did thank him for the offer. He did, then, invite me to a party at his house in lieu of the romp.  As he and his leather clad old lady left my office they were calculating how much meth his back award would buy.

That night I drove past his home.  There was a raging party going on.  I parked a bit away and watched for a time noticing that several of our undercover officers were doing the same.  I saw my guy, the one with the bad back lift a motorcycle through an upstairs bedroom window onto the roof.  he tried to ride it/jump it to the roof of the next door neighbor's house.  He failed. he next got back on to the roof and was out there with a quarter barrel and some biker chicks having a few beers when the cops came swooping in to break up the festivities.  he made a mighty toss of that quarter barrel at the cops as they were moving from the public sidewalk up his walkway.  For a man with a bad back prohibiting work he certainly was an active fellow.

I never did receive any benefit from him for my service, though there were the offers of hospitality.

Since then I have had folks send acknowledgements to me at my office, Event Tickets, and bottles of booze mostly, but also some nice Christmas treat baskets.  I always turn them over to the Office Administrator to address pursuant to our guidelines.  I also once had a gentleman come to my office with an envelope he laid upon my desk.  He explained he had no intent to violate the law and then got up to leave.  He forgot his envelope which was about 3/4 of an inch think with something rectangular and pliable about 6.14 inches by 2.61 inches inside.  I stopped him and reminded him he had forgotten something.  He stated I must be mistaken.  I told him it was his mistake.  He took his envelope and I walked him out of my office to his car.  It was a limo.  In the back of the limo were two young gals in lingerie.  Both Asian.  He said perhaps we could talk some more.  I declined.  As it turned out a task force had him under surveillance.  I learned this when I called an officer I worked with to report the matter so that he might begin investigating.

I love Asian girls in lingerie.
Over the years I have wondered whether those two girls were twins.

 
Hey you IP guys, you have any tricks with dealing with brand new examiners? I am currently trying to navigate the waters with one who has only had 37 apps, 0 issued, 1 abandoned and 36 pending.  :unsure:

(Bonus Fun: foreign inventors who can't speak english and are trying to explain very advanced microprocessor technologies.) 

 
Over the years I have wondered whether those two girls were twins.
One of the lap dances I referenced above came from a former client who was an employee at a place where such a gesture was common.  She suggested she had friends/co-workers that would help with said dance.  

I was single (although not hurting too badly) at the time.  Despite that, the ethical implications combined with the fact that the vixen's skin was somewhat falling off her face (meth will do that) made it easy to decline the invitation.  Although married and fatter me somewhat thinks I should have at least shown up to see what exact the "friends" would have looked like. 

 
BTW, this job sucks.  I'm currently experiencing a nice lull where I don't have many contested hearings/trials and no real high maintenance clients at the moment.  I've gone home by 5:30 every day the past couple of weeks and I even think I can take Veterans Day off. 

So, now I'm stressed out by the fact that I'm not stressed out and feel like there's things I'm not doing that I should be. 

 
So, now I'm stressed out by the fact that I'm not stressed out and feel like there's things I'm not doing that I should be. 
One of my old partners in Chicago used to say, "In times of peace, prepare for war." I'm pretty sure she still lives alone. 

 
I'm briefing a contract dispute for the Maryland Court of Appeals.

The other side's opposition spends  pages complaining that Maryland law only requires a contract provision to be "express" while I'm citing to New York law (cited favorably by the case establishing the Maryland law) that says that the language must be "clearly unmistakable."  Paragraph after paragraph about how we're trying to apply a "hyper-strict" New York rule.  So I looked up the definition of "express" in Black's. 

express adj. (14c) Clearly and unmistakably communicated; stated with directness and clarity
These nitwits are from a Vault 50 firm. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So stupid.  Opposing counsel (who is a normally a competent, rational person) didn't return any emails, was "with a client" or "on another call" every time I called for 2 months.  Finally got in touch with him, figured out a viable path to resolution, and he disappeared again and has pulled the same #### for another month.   My assumption is his client has disappeared and/or isn't paying him.  It also looks like his client hasn't just breached a contract, but has committed fraud and maybe some forgery as well.

We have mandatory pre-trial dates coming up, and his bull#### is going to make this whole thing harder and more expensive.  Don't know why he won't just withdraw.  

Today I filed a motion to compel supplemental discovery just to make him appear in court.  I documented every attempt to contact him. Hopefully the judge takes the initiative and lays into him.

 
One of the lap dances I referenced above came from a former client who was an employee at a place where such a gesture was common.  She suggested she had friends/co-workers that would help with said dance.  

I was single (although not hurting too badly) at the time.  Despite that, the ethical implications combined with the fact that the vixen's skin was somewhat falling off her face (meth will do that) made it easy to decline the invitation.  Although married and fatter me somewhat thinks I should have at least shown up to see what exact the "friends" would have looked like. 
An I.T. firm we may be contracting with sent over a 137 page contract.  In addition to insisting that we violate the Colorado Constitution, even after cogent explanation, they insist that their waiver provisions must stand exactly as written.  I tried to explain that my concern is that they have an error in the text as well as that my client would not agree to their term. They assured me they make no errors.  Given that, I probably have to study up some.  See I understand warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose but I have never even heard of matters being fit, or not, for a particularly "Podfwpose".  Guess I need to go back to school and learn about this podfwpose concept.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
An I.T. firm we may be contracting with sent over a 137 page contract.  In addition to insisting that we violate the Colorado Constitution, even after cogent explanation, they insist that their waiver provisions must stand exactly as written.  I tried to explain that my concern is that they have an error in the text as well as that my client would not agree to their term. They assured me they make no errors.  Given that, I probably have to study up some.  See I understand warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particularly purpose but I have never even heard of matters being fit, or not, for a particularly "Podfwpose".  Guess I need to go back to school and learn about this podfwpose concept.
pretty sure it's yoga. they've got this- just roll with it.

 
An I.T. firm we may be contracting with sent over a 137 page contract.  In addition to insisting that we violate the Colorado Constitution, even after cogent explanation, they insist that their waiver provisions must stand exactly as written.  I tried to explain that my concern is that they have an error in the text as well as that my client would not agree to their term. They assured me they make no errors.  Given that, I probably have to study up some.  See I understand warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particularly purpose but I have never even heard of matters being fit, or not, for a particularly "Podfwpose".  Guess I need to go back to school and learn about this podfwpose concept.
You didn't just send back a redline?

 
One of the lap dances I referenced above came from a former client who was an employee at a place where such a gesture was common.  She suggested she had friends/co-workers that would help with said dance.  

I was single (although not hurting too badly) at the time.  Despite that, the ethical implications combined with the fact that the vixen's skin was somewhat falling off her face (meth will do that) made it easy to decline the invitation.  Although married and fatter me somewhat thinks I should have at least shown up to see what exact the "friends" would have looked like. 
.

 
so after ten years of appearing in court for probably in probably what amounts to 6k-7k individual hearings, the trial I'm going to tomorrow marks a first for me. For starters, I won't be testifying, arguing, or even be on the record as an attorney. 

Instead, tomorrow marks the first court hearing I'll ever attend where it directly impacts my personal life. Tomorrow, my foster daughter's biological parents will have their trial to determine whether their rights are severed. If that happens, our odds of being able to adopt skyrocket. 

 
so after ten years of appearing in court for probably in probably what amounts to 6k-7k individual hearings, the trial I'm going to tomorrow marks a first for me. For starters, I won't be testifying, arguing, or even be on the record as an attorney. 

Instead, tomorrow marks the first court hearing I'll ever attend where it directly impacts my personal life. Tomorrow, my foster daughter's biological parents will have their trial to determine whether their rights are severed. If that happens, our odds of being able to adopt skyrocket. 
Had no idea you guys were adopting.  Good luck and God bless.  It's an extraordinary thing to do.

 
so after ten years of appearing in court for probably in probably what amounts to 6k-7k individual hearings, the trial I'm going to tomorrow marks a first for me. For starters, I won't be testifying, arguing, or even be on the record as an attorney. 

Instead, tomorrow marks the first court hearing I'll ever attend where it directly impacts my personal life. Tomorrow, my foster daughter's biological parents will have their trial to determine whether their rights are severed. If that happens, our odds of being able to adopt skyrocket. 
I'm keeping the best of thoughts for you Woz.  Your emotions must be all over the place.  As I understand such matters the courts give a powerfully strong presumption to not severing such ties if the parents are involved in contesting the matter.  I will not ask for details or speculation, I just offer my good wishes.

 
As I somewhat anticipated, the trial did not finish yesterday in the time allotted (this is pretty normal in my jurisdiction).  So, we'll have to wait until January most likely for a verdict.  

Oddly enough, in the middle of the trial, I got an email asking to see whether my wife and I would be willing to take in our other foster child's older sister.  Crazy day. 

 I had to chuckle though at just how easy it was for me to emotionally detach from the personal impact of the hearing and simply observe the trial like I would any other.  When we left the courthouse after the afternoon session my wife commented at how emotionally drained she was from the process and expressed how she has know idea how anybody could be a lawyer dealing with stuff like this everyday.  

 
bananafish said:
Good luck Mr. and Mrs. Woz. I can only imagine what an emotionally trying roller coaster this must be. Hopefully the court rules in your favor if that is indeed warranted and props to you either way for stepping up to the adoption plate.
To clarify, in the event I wasn't clear before, the only issue before the court at this particular trial is whether the parents rights should be severed.  Even if that happens it does not mean that the court has decided we get to adopt.  That's a whole separate legal proceeding.  But the former has to happen before the latter can be possible.  Nonetheless, at this stage, we're merely observers and whether it's in the best interests of our foster daughter to be with us is, for the most part, irrelevant for this particular proceeding. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I'm keeping the best of thoughts for you Woz.  Your emotions must be all over the place.  As I understand such matters the courts give a powerfully strong presumption to not severing such ties if the parents are involved in contesting the matter.  I will not ask for details or speculation, I just offer my good wishes.
You're not wrong, especially in theory and by an academic reading of the law, but in reality, at least in my jurisdiction, the courts probably find clear and convincing evidence for the severance more than 75% of the time. In other words, the state usually isn't going to go the severance route unless they're pretty darn sure they'll win and the parents have significantly dropped the proverbial ball. 

 
You're not wrong, especially in theory and by an academic reading of the law, but in reality, at least in my jurisdiction, the courts probably find clear and convincing evidence for the severance more than 75% of the time. In other words, the state usually isn't going to go the severance route unless they're pretty darn sure they'll win and the parents have significantly dropped the proverbial ball. 
Sounds encouraging for you and yours.  I sincerely hope this works out for you. Best of luck.

 
my sister in law adopted a six year old boy that had been in her care since he was three days old. It took that long for the parents rights to be severed. He was conceived in a mental hospital where birth mother was placed after previously committing infanticide. Never underestimate the desire of a case worker to keep a full caseload of safe homes and happy kids. Sometimes you have to rock the boat a little to move CPS. Good luck!

 
Its always good to see the young opposing lawyer, who you know researched and wrote the brief, sitting in the gallery while the arrogant senior partner guy steps up to the podium to argue.
I'm not even in the gallery.  I just finished watching the webcast.  In fairness, my wife was the primary drafter and I assisted.  This guy was with another firm and is a friend of the client's GC.  We found out LAST WEEK that the guy is no longer with a firm, but he still inexplicably was chosen to do the argument.  And he was convinced that doing a moot argument was a waste of time.

He just butchered about 5 simple facts that were explained in the briefing.  I'm still pissed at our partner because I told him he needed to fight for our firm to do this argument. 

 
Had the opposite issue last week (at least I think) - took over an appeal where prior atty poorly framed the issues. Tried to resurrect the case at argument, but I really wish we had nailed the briefing. It's incredibly rare to affect anything positively or negatively at a hearing, at least in the jurisdictions I've been in. 

 
 It's incredibly rare to affect anything positively or negatively at a hearing, at least in the jurisdictions I've been in. 
I normally think that too.  I'm still worried here.  It should be a slam dunk.  This guy also did the oral argument for the intermediate appellate court.  I thought he kind of botched that too, but the Panel in that case seemed to be completely adopting our argument.  They killed opposing counsel.  Then, we didn't hear anything for over a year before an opinion came out against us using reasoning that was nowhere in the opponents briefing and that never came up in argument.  It was really weird.

This time, the Panel asked some questions about certain provisions of the contract that he could have easily just replied were irrelevant.  But he tried to distinguish them in a way that misreads those (irrelevant even if properly constructed) provisions.  This bothers me because it took about 5 minutes of questioning time on an issue that's just a distraction. 

 
I normally think that too.  I'm still worried here.  It should be a slam dunk.  This guy also did the oral argument for the intermediate appellate court.  I thought he kind of botched that too, but the Panel in that case seemed to be completely adopting our argument.  They killed opposing counsel.  Then, we didn't hear anything for over a year before an opinion came out against us using reasoning that was nowhere in the opponents briefing and that never came up in argument.  It was really weird.

This time, the Panel asked some questions about certain provisions of the contract that he could have easily just replied were irrelevant.  But he tried to distinguish them in a way that misreads those (irrelevant even if properly constructed) provisions.  This bothers me because it took about 5 minutes of questioning time on an issue that's just a distraction. 
Skipping the moot court where he could have been instructed on a better way to answer those questions is borderline malpractice. 

 
Former firm trying to stiff me earned fees in six figures (that they tried to hide from me).  Hired a lawyer that took them down in a client fee dispute.  A lawyer hiring a lawyer to sue other lawyers.  Happy New Year!!!

 
Former firm trying to stiff me earned fees in six figures (that they tried to hide from me).  Hired a lawyer that took them down in a client fee dispute.  A lawyer hiring a lawyer to sue other lawyers.  Happy New Year!!!
I think you brought this up in jimtan, and used the expression about something else...

but it truly is the lawyerly gift of the magi.

 
Not that it matters, but this is another example of curious reporting on legal issues.  The question isn't whether social workers know that perjury is wrong.  The question is whether social workers, when testifying in their role as government workers, know that committing perjury is a constitutional violation.  If that isn't clearly established law, they are immune from suits under Section 1983 under the qualified immunity doctrine.

Now, I think the qualified immunity doctrine is stupid, but I'm not sure it's any more stupid here than when courts ask whether police officers know that putting a suspect in a choke hold or whether corrections officers know that letting schizophrenic inmates die of dehydration is a constitutional violation.  And those cases exist too.  To make matters worse, witnesses in judicial proceedings, even law enforcement officers who are complaining witnesses before Grand Jury proceedings, are absolutely immune from civil suit.  So I'm not even sure why they're briefing qualified immunity. 

 
Pro bono rant:

I occasionally take on a foreclosure defendant pro bono, especially if the lender has a reputation for playing fast and loose.  In late 2014, I take on a client who is a widow who is not obligated on the note, husband dropped dead at 55 with no estate plan or life insurance.  I asked her what her goal was when we first met - she's not taking a credit hit no matter what.  She says she wants to stay in the house long enough so that her daughter will graduate HS before they have to move.  That's like a year and a half out, I tell her that's probably a long shot, but I'll review all their filings and exhibits and defend on what I can, expect another 9-12 months before you gotta move.

Sure enough, bigbank screws up its filings, twice.  Once they had to outright dismiss, the other, they had to amend.  Also, I got a court order that they had to negotiate with her - their CS has been refusing to talk to her since she's not a borrower.  They rejected her offer to take over payments (not enough income), ok fine.  Daughter graduated in June of 2016, at this point it's all gravy IMO.  So in August of last year filings are in order and it looks like she'll be out when they file an MSJ or await a trial date.  I talk to her about this - the end of the line is coming, we've done really well here.

Trial list comes out, we are on for February, I hear from lender - we don't want this house in the winter, will she take $2500 cash and we will let her stay until spring, pick a date in March or April.  Reasonable by them, total win for her.  I call her to tell her of this deal.  Her reaction?  "HOW WILL I MOVE MY THINGS OUT? I HAVE NO WAY TO MOVE AND NOWHERE TO GO! HOW CAN ANYONE THINK I CAN JUST UP AND LEAVE?"

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top