The other side of the Mitchell Report (1 Viewer)

[Doctor Detroit]

The one thing the media isn't talking about is all the crap on the Mitchell report. Most of the people are disappointed because there weren't bigger names but to me the lesser guys and in particular, these guys below show that steroids don't necessarily help everyone.

Larry BigbieTim LakerMark CarreonF.P. SantangeloChris DonnelsTodd WilliamsMike LansingCody McKayJason ChristiansenStephen RandolphAdam RiggsBart MiadichJim ParqueChad AllenJeff WilliamsHowie ClarkNook LoganSteve Woodard

Baseball takes great hand/eye coordination and the best players are naturals due to those skills. We have seen over the years you don't have to be a great athlete to be a great hitter (Boggs, Edgar Martinez, Bill Madlock). If you use performance enhancers I would argue that you still have to be a good natural player and you also need to put in the work. What these drugs do is help you in the weight room and help you reach your maximum physical potential. Did performance enhancers help Clemens and Bonds? Sure they did but you don't just shoot up and walk out there and hit a HR or throw a 98 mph fastball. You have to have the talent there to begin with. Now I think there are exceptions like Jose Canseco who went from meh prospect to stud by being an uber juicer but he still obviously had some talent. Same can be said about a few guys on that list I imagine. Thoughts? Where did Cody McKay go wrong?

 

[428143]

It may or may not have helped them get from A level to AA level, or a college scholarship, but you have a point....nevertheless, I can't help but think steroids give a player a significant advantage compared to a similar player who doesn't cheat nature(which is exactly what Clemens did after 1997)

 

[Please See Mine]

The one thing the media isn't talking about is all the crap on the Mitchell report. Most of the people are disappointed because there weren't bigger names but to me the lesser guys and in particular, these guys below show that steroids don't necessarily help everyone.

Or that they would have been totally out of baseball and steroids gave them just enough to hang on for a little while.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

It may or may not have helped them get from A level to AA level, or a college scholarship, but you have a point....nevertheless, I can't help but think steroids give a player a significant advantage compared to a similar player who doesn't cheat nature(which is exactly what Clemens did after 1997)

I think there are a lot of factors in figuring out how much it helps the individual guy. I think regardless you still have to put in the work off the field and then you still have to have the talent. What I'm really wanting to know is how much of a difference would they make if you didn't do anything off the field or how much difference would they make if you worked out like Clemens and Bonds. You have to remember Bonds and Clemens were on their way to the hall well before they are alleged to do steroids. I am not defending either in their use of steroids but I just think this thing is so widespread, that within their era they were doing what the majority of their teammates and competitors were doing. I'd say at least a third of the guys were doing this.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The one thing the media isn't talking about is all the crap on the Mitchell report. Most of the people are disappointed because there weren't bigger names but to me the lesser guys and in particular, these guys below show that steroids don't necessarily help everyone.

Or that they would have been totally out of baseball and steroids gave them just enough to hang on for a little while.

So then it didn't make much difference. Look at Neifi Perez. He pretty much always sucked and then used enhancers to "hang on" when he was right on the edge. Having watched his "hang on" years I can tell you the guy could have worked out 10 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year and would never be a good hitter.

 

[Eephus]

There's a item in the Mitchell Report that Chad Allen used steroids because he couldn't afford HGH. Allen made the Show for only 41 games in 2004-5. It probably seemed like a good tradeoff at the time.

His appearance in the report almost certainly blows whatever slim chance he had of ever getting back to the majors. A club would be willing to take a bigger risk on somebody more talented, there's no point in them doing so for someone who was marginal to begin with.

 

[Night Hawks]

The one thing the media isn't talking about is all the crap on the Mitchell report. Most of the people are disappointed because there weren't bigger names but to me the lesser guys and in particular, these guys below show that steroids don't necessarily help everyone.

Larry BigbieTim LakerMark CarreonF.P. SantangeloChris DonnelsTodd WilliamsMike LansingCody McKayJason ChristiansenStephen RandolphAdam RiggsBart MiadichJim ParqueChad AllenJeff WilliamsHowie ClarkNook LoganSteve Woodard

Baseball takes great hand/eye coordination and the best players are naturals due to those skills. We have seen over the years you don't have to be a great athlete to be a great hitter (Boggs, Edgar Martinez, Bill Madlock). If you use performance enhancers I would argue that you still have to be a good natural player and you also need to put in the work. What these drugs do is help you in the weight room and help you reach your maximum physical potential. Did performance enhancers help Clemens and Bonds? Sure they did but you don't just shoot up and walk out there and hit a HR or throw a 98 mph fastball. You have to have the talent there to begin with. Now I think there are exceptions like Jose Canseco who went from meh prospect to stud by being an uber juicer but he still obviously had some talent. Same can be said about a few guys on that list I imagine. Thoughts? Where did Cody McKay go wrong?

This is what has always pissed me off about Bonds. Looking at his days from the early-90s, you knew he had amazing talent. Even without juice he would have surpassed 550 HR, if not 600 IMO. He has stud talents enhanced by steroids. As for Clemens, another thread pointed out that the years preceding when they thought he began steroids were him on a downturn. So it might have helped him remain at such a high velocity for so long. Yeah, when you don't have the natural talent to throw a 98 MPH fastball, you might be fighting a losing battle by taking stuff. But when you have it, it sure does help maintain it into the mid-40s.

 

[Frostillicus]

This report probably didn't even get a third of the players taking them, it names a total of 86 players. I'm no legal expert, but I'm guessing there have been a whole hell of a lot more players on the sweet, sweet Roids than that. I haven't read the damn thing because it's 400 pages and half of it is "steroids are bad." But here's the list of players mentioned, broken out in arbitrary categories assigned by me.

I'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THESE GUYS (15):

Tim Laker

Mark Carreon

Cody McKay

Adam Riggs

Bart Miadich

Mike Bell (not the football player. I checked)

Gary Bennett

Jeff Williams

Howie Clark

Mike Judd

Ricky Stone

Ryan Jorgensen

Steve Woodard

Todd Williams

Stephen Randolph

GUYS WHO WERE PROBABLY USING A PLACEBO INSTEAD BECAUSE THEY SUCKED (32):

Dan Naulty

Armando Rios

Marvin Benard

Bobby Estallela

Jeremy Giambi

Randy Velarde

Larry Bigbie

Josias Manzanillo

Matt Franco

Jason Grimsley

Gregg Zaun

FP Santangelo

Ron Villone

Chris Donnels

Todd Pratt

Mike Lansing

Kevin Young

Kent Mercker

Phil Hiatt

Adam Piatt

Jason Christiansen

Matt Herges

Jim Parque

Chad Allen (Go Twins!)

Brendan Donnally (He once humped some groupie on a balcony of the house he was sharing with several other minor league teammates and ended up with crabs. True Story)

Nook Logan

Paxton Crawford

Darren Holmes

John Rocker (I'm shocked)

Jerry Hairston, Jr.

Ricky Bones

David Bell

GUYS WHO WE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT (8):

Barry Bonds

Jason Giambi

Gary Sheffield

David Segui

Ryan Franklin

Rafael Palmeiro

Ken Caminiti

Jose Canseco

GUY WHO TOOK STEROIDS AS PRESCRIBED BY A DOCTOR FOR A MEDICAL CONDITION (1):

Paul Byrd

The players in the above lists I would have to label "Who Cares?" as a group. They either are insignificant, or we already knew about it. That covers 56 out of the 86 players in the report. The remaining 30 I would say are somewhat more significant, and can be broken out into three categories:

NOT AT ALL SURPRISING (5):

Brian Roberts

Rondell White

Roger Clemens

Eric Gagne

Gary Matthews, Jr.

SOMEWHAT SIGNIFICANT (18):

Benito Santiago (no wonder he played for 40 years)

Lenny Dykstra (although I'm guessing he'd put about anything in his body)

Jack Cust

Todd Hundley

Hal Morris

Chuck Knoblauch (really?)

Glenallen Hill

Denny Neagle (Go Gophers!)

Mike Stanton

Paul LoDuca

Fernando Vina

Derrick Turnbow

Jay Gibbons

Scott Schoenweis

Ismael Valdez

Rick Ankiel (how's that feelgood story now?)

Jose Guillen

Wally Joyner

That leaves 7 guys in the entire report who actually matter. 7. On the whole thing. That everyone is freaking out about. 7.

Andy Pettitte

David Justice

Mo Vaughn

Miguel Tejada

Kevin Brown

Troy Glaus

Matt Williams

Only three of these guys are even still playing. And they're old. No A-Rod. No Pujols. No Vlad. No Santana. No Peavy. No Ryan Howard. No Josh Becktt. So what's the big deal? Talk about anti-climactic.

If anything, this report is a boost to guys like Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Sosa (where are those two on the list, by the way?) because of how many players took the juice and still sucked ###. If you want to call baseball a joke, do it for this ridiculous report or for the fact that David Eckstein got $4.5 mil for one year, not because of steroids.

 

[Michael Brown]

The one thing the media isn't talking about is all the crap on the Mitchell report. Most of the people are disappointed because there weren't bigger names but to me the lesser guys and in particular, these guys below show that steroids don't necessarily help everyone.

Or that they would have been totally out of baseball and steroids gave them just enough to hang on for a little while.

Exactly. And these are the types of guys who'd typically be more likely to use them. The difference between a minor league contract and a guaranteed major league minimum deal is ginormous money-wise. Even larger back in the 90's.Chris Donnels and Mike Bell and Neifi Perez sucked. Okay, but they probably would've been at best low-level minor leaguers their entire careers rather than "crappy" major leaguers. How many minor league guys would've started hitting .320 at the minor league level and moved up quickly if they took roids too?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Nook Logan

Hate to see this dude pre-roids. Must not have been able to hit the ball out of the infield even.

 

[Eephus]

This report probably didn't even get a third of the players taking them, it names a total of 86 players. I'm no legal expert, but I'm guessing there have been a whole hell of a lot more players on the sweet, sweet Roids than that. I haven't read the damn thing because it's 400 pages and half of it is "steroids are bad." But here's the list of players mentioned, broken out in arbitrary categories assigned by me.I'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THESE GUYS (15):Tim LakerMark Carreon

Carreon had over 2000 MLB at-bats and inspired a song by Kansas

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Nook Logan

Hate to see this dude pre-roids. Must not have been able to hit the ball out of the infield even.

He could do that during? Link?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This report probably didn't even get a third of the players taking them, it names a total of 86 players. I'm no legal expert, but I'm guessing there have been a whole hell of a lot more players on the sweet, sweet Roids than that. I haven't read the damn thing because it's 400 pages and half of it is "steroids are bad." But here's the list of players mentioned, broken out in arbitrary categories assigned by me.I'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THESE GUYS (15):Tim LakerMark Carreon

Carreon had over 2000 MLB at-bats and inspired a song by Kansas

 

[DropKick]

We all know roids won't allow me to hit a major league fastball. However, it will benefit those people blessed to have some natural ability. Obviously, there is a broad spectrum of talent levels; ranging from the fringe MLB player to the hall of fame candidate. Each has their "need" apparently. Maybe one guy hit his ceiling at the AA or AAA level and this is what he thinks he needs to get over the top. Maybe another guy, who has already posted a solid career, sees it as a way to extend his career or a way to counteract his naturally declining ability. Hard to say how much a guy like Clemens was helped; an extra couple miles on the fastball; the ability to recover more quickly... Obviously, he thought he needed the extra help. Doesn't that say all you need to know?

Who is cheated here? I'm sure there are some players who never got their chance in the majors due to someone else's use of performance enhancers. As a fan, I feel cheated too. You know the use goes well beyond the report; as it was inherently limited in its scope. You can't quantify or gauge how differently records, seasons and even championships would have played out otherwise. The whole thing is pretty sad really.

I think kids are cheated too. How different is this era given the level of legal issues, controversy and general question marks regarding their "heroes"?

ETA I don't even want to think about the trickle down effect all the way down to high school players. I think the "no name" guys on the list serves a great purpose. Not just to highlight how the elite players have benefited but to illustrate how wide spread the problem really is.

 

[Night Hawks]

Nook Logan

Hate to see this dude pre-roids. Must not have been able to hit the ball out of the infield even.

He could do that during? Link?

Batting practice. With no fielders. And with the wind blowing out ... a lot.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

I absolutely loved David Justice on the Herd yesterday. Whining and moaning about his name in there. They said he used it in 2001 I believe....He had a crappy injured year....so he uses that as the excuse he didn't use

What would of really ruled is if they had a big Baseball 2nite round table live as the Mitchell Report as it was released, and Fernando Vina was on the set. .....And your comments, Fernando? Fernando? Cheater? Fraud? Any comment?

 

[Koya]

Nook Logan

Hate to see this dude pre-roids. Must not have been able to hit the ball out of the infield even.

He could do that during? Link?

Batting practice. With no fielders. And with the wind blowing out ... a lot.

At Ol' Wenton Fairground Stadium where there is a 3% downward grade on the whole field.

 

[Bob Henry]

GUY WHO TOOK STEROIDS AS PRESCRIBED BY A DOCTOR FOR A MEDICAL CONDITION (1)aul ByrdThe players in the above lists I would have to label "Who Cares?" as a group. They either are insignificant, or we already knew about it. That covers 56 out of the 86 players in the report. The remaining 30 I would say are somewhat more significant, and can be broken out into three categories:That leaves 7 guys in the entire report who actually matter. 7. On the whole thing. That everyone is freaking out about. 7.Andy PettitteDavid JusticeMo VaughnMiguel TejadaKevin BrownTroy GlausMatt Williams

For some reason, I thought Matt Williams' name was out there already in the past as a possible roider. I know he dealt with a ton of injuries towards the tail end of his career. Glaus has been no stranger to the DL either. Ditto Brown. I wouldn't be surprised at all if those players took whatever they may have taken because of injuries. Maybe it started there. The thing is we don't know which ones could've used it only for medical reasons like Byrd, or even like Pettite says he did (2 days). Mo Vaughn probably took them just to lose weight. He fell off quickly after being an exceptional hitter for a period.To me, Clemens isn't a shocker at all. He fit the profile all along and I always thought that he either have some ridiculously good trainers and training program, or some prescribed help. Or both. He was a great pitcher, but at least IMO, no Nolan Ryan from the longevity standpoint (at least naturally). They have similar bodytypes though and generated a lot of their power through their legs.. Some of those names are just laughable as some of you have pointed out. Nook Logan. LOL. I was honestly expecting to see Bobby Higginson's sorry a** on there, too. To me, he screamed of a player who may have taken something to hang on as long as possible.

 

[redman]

I may disagree with you here, DD, but the evidence out there is that these drugs (and they all have different attributes of course) enhance various aspects of the players' bodies that are helpful to their performance. I even read that some studies have found that steroids or HGH (can't remember which) enhance eyesight.

True, you can't "make" a good ballplayer from scratch with this stuff, but if you're a borderline major leaguer (which your list was made up of) then I can easily see them buying you extra time in the major leagues, and at over $1M per year the economic incentives are definitely there.