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"The Patriots Spread the Ball Around" (1 Viewer)

Warehouse Nasty

Footballguy
I hear this comment regularly when reading about Randy Moss and I don't understand this one bit. The Patriots have never had an elite WR during Tom Brady's tenure so Brady has had no choice but to spread the ball around. The last 4 years his leading wideout has been Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Branch again. Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?

Do we really expect the Patriots, who have been the NFL's pacesetter in terms of constantly evolving their offense and defense to fit their personnel, to keep spreading the ball around because that's what they've done in the past? Can't we look back at the Eagles before TO and see a similar type of situation and reasonably guess that Moss should shatter what any of Tom Brady's WR's have done over the last 4 years?

I've seen very conservative projections on Moss here and I am just not buying it. He's in a great situation with the best QB he's ever had and a team that will throw the ball more this year than last due to losing Dillon.

Unless he gets injured, which could be a valid concern with his hamstring, he should top 1100 yards and get double digit TD's which would put him top 5-10.

 
Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?
it's a chicken vs. egg thing. no one really knows...but if i had been surrounded by chickens all my life, and never saw an egg before, it would be pretty difficult to convince me that the egg came first.eta that there is also some debate as to whether or not moss is still elite...which would level the argument.
 
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Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.

 
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I think that Brady likes to throw to the open guy, and while he may have a favorite, he'll still spread the ball around long and short, to make the D more spread. He doesn't have the long accuracy to be throwing bombs to Moss all day. I think Moss' numbers will be down from his elite past, but better than last year.

 
I hear this comment regularly when reading about Randy Moss and I don't understand this one bit. The Patriots have never had an elite WR during Tom Brady's tenure so Brady has had no choice but to spread the ball around. The last 4 years his leading wideout has been Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Branch again. Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?Do we really expect the Patriots, who have been the NFL's pacesetter in terms of constantly evolving their offense and defense to fit their personnel, to keep spreading the ball around because that's what they've done in the past? Can't we look back at the Eagles before TO and see a similar type of situation and reasonably guess that Moss should shatter what any of Tom Brady's WR's have done over the last 4 years?I've seen very conservative projections on Moss here and I am just not buying it. He's in a great situation with the best QB he's ever had and a team that will throw the ball more this year than last due to losing Dillon. Unless he gets injured, which could be a valid concern with his hamstring, he should top 1100 yards and get double digit TD's which would put him top 5-10.
Honestly.... The telling truth will be how Branch does this year in Seattle. I believe Brady looks for the open man and Branch is a capable Wr1.
 
Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?
it's a chicken vs. egg thing. no one really knows...but if i had been surrounded by chickens all my life, and never saw an egg before, it would be pretty difficult to convince me that the egg came first.eta that there is also some debate as to whether or not moss is still elite...which would level the argument.
Certainly last year's numbers were NOT elite but 2 years ago he put up 1000 yards and 8 TD's with Kerry Collins as his QB.

 
I hear this comment regularly when reading about Randy Moss and I don't understand this one bit. The Patriots have never had an elite WR during Tom Brady's tenure so Brady has had no choice but to spread the ball around. The last 4 years his leading wideout has been Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Branch again. Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?Do we really expect the Patriots, who have been the NFL's pacesetter in terms of constantly evolving their offense and defense to fit their personnel, to keep spreading the ball around because that's what they've done in the past? Can't we look back at the Eagles before TO and see a similar type of situation and reasonably guess that Moss should shatter what any of Tom Brady's WR's have done over the last 4 years?I've seen very conservative projections on Moss here and I am just not buying it. He's in a great situation with the best QB he's ever had and a team that will throw the ball more this year than last due to losing Dillon. Unless he gets injured, which could be a valid concern with his hamstring, he should top 1100 yards and get double digit TD's which would put him top 5-10.
Honestly.... The telling truth will be how Branch does this year in Seattle. I believe Brady looks for the open man and Branch is a capable Wr1.
Branch played 14 games last year in Seattle. Put up 725 yards and 4 TDs.
 
Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
They've changed their method EVERY year. That's what keeps them on top. It's not about changing their ways to fit Randy; it's about Randy getting open and allowing them to do things that no other WR has ever allowed them to do.
 
I hear this comment regularly when reading about Randy Moss and I don't understand this one bit. The Patriots have never had an elite WR during Tom Brady's tenure so Brady has had no choice but to spread the ball around. The last 4 years his leading wideout has been Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Branch again. Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?Do we really expect the Patriots, who have been the NFL's pacesetter in terms of constantly evolving their offense and defense to fit their personnel, to keep spreading the ball around because that's what they've done in the past? Can't we look back at the Eagles before TO and see a similar type of situation and reasonably guess that Moss should shatter what any of Tom Brady's WR's have done over the last 4 years?I've seen very conservative projections on Moss here and I am just not buying it. He's in a great situation with the best QB he's ever had and a team that will throw the ball more this year than last due to losing Dillon. Unless he gets injured, which could be a valid concern with his hamstring, he should top 1100 yards and get double digit TD's which would put him top 5-10.
Honestly.... The telling truth will be how Branch does this year in Seattle. I believe Brady looks for the open man and Branch is a capable Wr1.
Branch played 14 games last year in Seattle. Put up 725 yards and 4 TDs.
In a new offense he joined in the midst of the season..... doesn't sound like a fair shake to me.
 
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http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=7067453

The Patriots changed their offense significantly when they added Daniel Graham, Christian Fauria and Cam Cleeland. They went from having 19 TE receptions as a team to 63. Of course they changed. They added good players and they used them.

In 2002, the Patriots had a 61/39 pass/run ratio. In 2003, they won a Superbowl on the back of a 53/47 pass/run ratio. In 2004, they added Corey Dillon, and became 48/52 in favor of the run. Of course they changed. They added a good player and they used him.

Only once in Brady's career had a TE gotten more than 30 receptions, and never 40. Last year, Watson had 49. Why? Because none of the receivers were very good.

The Patriots don't have a philosophy of spreading the ball around just because it's the cool thing to do. They spread it around because they have to. They didn't throw to Caldwell and Watson because they were the best receivers in the world. They threw to them because they were the best receivers on the team. They run the ball when they have a good running back, they pass the ball when they have good receivers, and they will throw more to the best receivers on the team.

This shouldn't come as a surprise. Everyone would do this. I can understand someone saying that Moss' skills have declined, but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would say, yeah, Moss is good, but they probably won't throw to him that much. That's just silly.
Brady has had between 474 and 601 pass attempts per year. The 474 was in Corey Dillon's big year in 2004. The 601 was the year that they couldn't stop the run in 2002. I think their defense is good enough that 600 is out of the question. I don't think they're going to hammer Maroney, Morris and Faulk so much that we'll see 474, either. Belichick likes to step on his opponent's throats, not blindly run the clock down, unless he's up by 15+ in the second half. I think he'll be in the mid-high range for pass attempts, so I'll call it 550 pass attempts.

Brady's completion percentage has been between 60.2 and 63.9. His best years were 2001, when he was throwing to Troy Brown a lot, and 2005, when Branch and Givens both had their best seasons. This will be the best set of receivers he has ever had. I'd say he should have at least a 63% completion percentage, and it may even be higher.

550 pass attempts x 63% is about 350 completions. Brady had 334 completions in 2005, and 373 in 2002, compared with 288, 319 and 317 in his three other full years. This seems like a little higher, but reasonable estimate for him this year.

Over the last five years, here's how the receptions have split out:

2001

WR Total Receptions 190

WR1 101

WR2 51

WR3 14

TE 19

RB 93

BRADY 264 (40 completions by other passers)

2002

WR Total Receptions 222

WR1 97

WR2 61

WR3 43

TE 63

RB 93

BRADY 373 (5 completions by other passers)

2003

WR Total Receptions 178

WR1 57

WR2 40

WR3 34

TE 66

RB 88

BRADY 317 (5 completions by other passers)

2004

WR Total Receptions 162

WR1 56

WR2 44

WR3 35

TE 65

RB 70

BRADY 293 (4 completions by other passers)

2005

WR Total Receptions 211

WR1 78

WR2 59

WR3 39

TE 53

RB 84

BRADY 334 (14 completions by other passers)

2006

WR Total Receptions 156

WR1 61

WR2 43* (*Ben Watson had 49 receptions. Also, the #2 receiver changed throughout the year.)

WR3 25*

TE 81

RB 89

BRADY 319 (7 completions by other passers)

A couple things to put these numbers in perspective:

In 2001 and 2002, Troy Brown was the best receiver on the team. He had 198 receptions in those two seasons. So it is possible for the #1 receiver to have 100 catches.

In 2005, Branch was the best receiver on the team. He had 78 receptions. When Brady has a top receiver, it is possible for him to get ~80 receptions.

The #1 receiver on the team has never had less than 56 receptions.

The #1 recever on the team averages 75 receptions over the course of Brady's career.

The #2 receiver on the team has never had more than 61 receptions.

The #2 receiver on the team averages 50 receptions over the course of Brady's career.

The #3 receiver on the team has never had more than 43 receptions.

The #3 receiver on the team averages 32 receptions over the course of Brady's career.

The tight ends have had between 53 and 65 receptions every year but 2001, when they only had 19 receptions, and last year, when they had an uncharacteristically high 81.

The tight end corps has averaged 63 receptions per year. 2001's low water mark is largely because they had no talent at the position. They drafted Daniel Graham in the first round in 2002 and added Fauria and Cleeland. 2006's high water mark is largely because Watson was the #2 receiver on the team with 49 receptions, compared with the #2 WR who had 43.

The running backs have pretty steadily had between 84 and 93 receptions. The only outlier year, with 70, was the year Corey Dillon arrived. He ran more, and caught less.

So let's take this information and use it to project the Pats.

We'll assume the TEs will no longer be considered the top receiving option. The Patriots now have legitimate WR threats. We'll also assume the running backs continue to contribute in the passing game, but maybe a little lower than normal. And last but not least, we'll assume that Moss is a little closer to a Troy Brown/Deion Branch skill level than Reche Caldwell.

2007

WR Total Receptions 200

Moss 82

Welker 56

Stallworth 52

WR4-6 28

TE 50

RB 84

BRADY 350

Rumors of Moss' demise have been greatly exaggerated. Even in Oakland, he averaged over 15 yards per catch, and a TD/9 receptions. It's his receptions that dropped down. If you assume those same numbers from him in New England, you could predict him for:

Moss 82 receptions, 1200 yards, 9 TDs

That seems like a reasonable estimate to me. And that would make him a top 10 WR.

Note that I'm not making any wild predictions about Moss, or the New England offense here. I'm assuming they stay around historical levels, that Moss continues to produce near his average YPC in Oakland, and that he fills the #1 receiver role for New England. All of those seem like reasonable assumptions to me.

Now let's assess his risk/reward. Could he do better than this? Sort of. I don't think it's likely that he'll get 100 receptions. But he could catch more TDs, since he's probably the best red zone receiver on the team. Could he do worse than this? Definitely. It's remotely possible that he won't be the WR1, or that he'll miss time (he has only missed eight games in his career, but they've all been in the last three years). Could he get benched or cut? Yes. Belichick will keep him on a short leash.

Overall, I'd put him at the bottom of the top ten, or maybe just outside it, because of the risk. I think there's a better chance that he busts than that he's the guy that carries your team to the championship, but I think he's a better WR option than almost anyone outside the top ten receivers. I think he deserves consideration somewhere between picks 30 and 50. Right now his ADP is on the low end of that range at 44th overall.
 
Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
They've changed their method EVERY year. That's what keeps them on top. It's not about changing their ways to fit Randy; it's about Randy getting open and allowing them to do things that no other WR has ever allowed them to do.
???No. Brady has been killing people with short/medium accurate passing for years now regardless of who was in the rest of the line up or the pass/run ratio.

I could not possibly disagree more with what you have postulated.

 
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I hear this comment regularly when reading about Randy Moss and I don't understand this one bit. The Patriots have never had an elite WR during Tom Brady's tenure so Brady has had no choice but to spread the ball around. The last 4 years his leading wideout has been Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Branch again. Can we really draw the conclusion that Brady spreads the ball around or is it possible that Brady has been spreading the ball around because he's never had an elite WR?Do we really expect the Patriots, who have been the NFL's pacesetter in terms of constantly evolving their offense and defense to fit their personnel, to keep spreading the ball around because that's what they've done in the past? Can't we look back at the Eagles before TO and see a similar type of situation and reasonably guess that Moss should shatter what any of Tom Brady's WR's have done over the last 4 years?I've seen very conservative projections on Moss here and I am just not buying it. He's in a great situation with the best QB he's ever had and a team that will throw the ball more this year than last due to losing Dillon. Unless he gets injured, which could be a valid concern with his hamstring, he should top 1100 yards and get double digit TD's which would put him top 5-10.
Honestly.... The telling truth will be how Branch does this year in Seattle. I believe Brady looks for the open man and Branch is a capable Wr1.
Branch played 14 games last year in Seattle. Put up 725 yards and 4 TDs.
In a NEW offense he joined in the midst of the season.. doesn't sound like a fair shake to me.
Fair point; not trying to dismiss this fact but the above is all we have right now. I like Branch, he's a good player, but the fact is he's a 5'9" speed guy. I have a hard time thinking he'll do significantly better than the 998 yards and 5 TDs he put up in 2005.
 
I agree that Brady spreading it around is not because he has to, but because he can. A potentially more potent deep threat will just make that easier.

 
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Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
They've changed their method EVERY year. That's what keeps them on top. It's not about changing their ways to fit Randy; it's about Randy getting open and allowing them to do things that no other WR has ever allowed them to do.
???No. Brady has been killing people with short/medium accurate passing for years now regardless of who was in the rest of the line up or the pass/run ratio.

I could not possibly disagree more with what you have postulated.
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.

 
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.

I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.

Also there is a different definition for Moss being "open" than other recievers. He is a master of the jump ball and has the hands.

 
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.

I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.
From watching the game we call football. Not the stats of yards per attempt or successful 3rd down coversion on the road in the snow.He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns with an occasional toss over the zone corner towards the sideline. Randy Moss who made his living and legend (with a strong arm Culpeper who could scramble and handle being hit to buy time) running deep deep deep patterns in a Denny Green verticle pass game, is going to do that in New England? I think Billecheck would kill someone.

As I said, I am at a total disagreement with you about what the Patriots have been doing to be successful on offense. It all about Tom Brady.

 
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Its possible the Patriots like to spread the ball around because they've never had an elite WR paired with Brady. Now they might have one so the past trends won't affect Moss. Actually I'll favor that line of thought.

 
Its possible the Patriots like to spread the ball around because they've never had an elite WR paired with Brady. Now they might have one so the past trends won't affect Moss. Actually I'll favor that line of thought.
Its possible.It just doesnt add up to me at all. The Patriots changing their approach for Randy. Actually, Im all for it. Throw it high and deep Brady, throw it high and deep!
 
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I can understand where you would think this. McNabb always spreads the ball around too...except when he had TO.

However, count me as part of the "Moss is past his prime" camp. He had some injury issues the last few years, and last season was so awful that you simply cannot blame it entirely on Art Shell and "not caring"; what really stands out to me was that Ronald Curry did everything better than Moss except score TDs, and even that wasn't a big difference (1 vs. 3). He's at a common decline age for WRs...

Additionally, the "spread the ball" line still has SOME validity. In the TO example above, all of Philly's other WRs were among the worst in the league, so McNabb simply HAD to force the ball to him. That is far from the case here - Stallworth is a great #2 if his hamstrings can hold up, and Welker is a top-notch possession guy. I think they'll all rack up decent numbers in the end, and do not like any Patriots WRs at their current ADP.

-Josh

 
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.

I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.
From watching the game we call football. Not the stats of yards per attempt or successful 3rd down coversion on the road in the snow.He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns with an occasional toss over the zone corner towards the sideline. Randy Moss who made his living and legend (with a strong arm Culpeper who could scramble and handle being hit to buy time) running deep deep deep patterns in Denny Green a verticle pass game is going to do that in New England? I think Billecheck would kill someone.

As I said, I am at a total disagreement with you about what the Patriots have been doing to be successful on offense. It all about Tom Brady.
I agree completely with the bolded. In fact, that's the entire basis for my argument. MOss with Brady at the helm is going to be extremely successful.This discussion is about the statistics Moss will put up this year so if you're not interested in statistics then maybe there's no point in discussing.

 
I can understand where you would think this. McNabb always spreads the ball around too...except when he had TO.However, count me as part of the "Moss is past his prime" camp. He had some injury issues the last few years, and last season was so awful that you simply cannot blame it entirely on Art Shell and "not caring"; what really stands out to me was that Ronald Curry did everything better than Moss except score TDs, and even that wasn't a big difference (1 vs. 3). He's at a common decline age for WRs...Additionally, the "spread the ball" line still has SOME validity. In the TO example above, all of Philly's other WRs were among the worst in the league, so McNabb simply HAD to force the ball to him. That is far from the case here - Stallworth is a great #2 if his hamstrings can hold up, and Welker is a top-notch possession guy. I think they'll all rack up decent numbers in the end, and do not like any Patriots WRs at their current ADP.-Josh
However, there definitely is a personality type where someone will only go all out if they feel they are on a winning team. If they feel they are on a losing team, they quit. People do act this way.
 
Its possible the Patriots like to spread the ball around because they've never had an elite WR paired with Brady. Now they might have one so the past trends won't affect Moss. Actually I'll favor that line of thought.
Its possible.It just doesnt add up to me at all.

The Patriots changing their approach for Randy. Actually, Im all for it. Throw it high and deep Brady, throw it high and deep!
I'm not sure if that's addressed to me but that's far from the argument I'm making.
 
I can understand where you would think this. McNabb always spreads the ball around too...except when he had TO.

However, count me as part of the "Moss is past his prime" camp. He had some injury issues the last few years, and last season was so awful that you simply cannot blame it entirely on Art Shell and "not caring"; what really stands out to me was that Ronald Curry did everything better than Moss except score TDs, and even that wasn't a big difference (1 vs. 3). He's at a common decline age for WRs...

Additionally, the "spread the ball" line still has SOME validity. In the TO example above, all of Philly's other WRs were among the worst in the league, so McNabb simply HAD to force the ball to him. That is far from the case here - Stallworth is a great #2 if his hamstrings can hold up, and Welker is a top-notch possession guy. I think they'll all rack up decent numbers in the end, and do not like any Patriots WRs at their current ADP.

-Josh
The bolded above is a concern for me as well and that's a better discussion than "Brady has always thrown the ball around so he will continue to do so". It's hard to say what Moss we can potentially see because he hasn't been elite the last 2-3 years.
 
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.

I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.
From watching the game we call football. Not the stats of yards per attempt or successful 3rd down coversion on the road in the snow.He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns with an occasional toss over the zone corner towards the sideline. Randy Moss who made his living and legend (with a strong arm Culpeper who could scramble and handle being hit to buy time) running deep deep deep patterns in Denny Green a verticle pass game is going to do that in New England? I think Billecheck would kill someone.

As I said, I am at a total disagreement with you about what the Patriots have been doing to be successful on offense. It all about Tom Brady.
I agree completely with the bolded. In fact, that's the entire basis for my argument. MOss with Brady at the helm is going to be extremely successful.This discussion is about the statistics Moss will put up this year so if you're not interested in statistics then maybe there's no point in discussing.
Thats a different statistical use.One- is discussing football and what will happen on the field. I dont care about the NFL.com stats of last year. I care about how the Patriots offense actually works.

Two- is duscussing how many stats Moss will accumulate in accordance to how the Patriots offense actually works.

For the record, you do not totally agree with "He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns" ???

 
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.

I think you're misunderstanding this so let me say it a different way. I agree with you that Brady will throw to the open man. Every great NFL QB does this. I'm saying that Moss is going to get open a lot more than any target Brady has ever had.
From watching the game we call football. Not the stats of yards per attempt or successful 3rd down coversion on the road in the snow.He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns with an occasional toss over the zone corner towards the sideline. Randy Moss who made his living and legend (with a strong arm Culpeper who could scramble and handle being hit to buy time) running deep deep deep patterns in Denny Green a verticle pass game is going to do that in New England? I think Billecheck would kill someone.

As I said, I am at a total disagreement with you about what the Patriots have been doing to be successful on offense. It all about Tom Brady.
I agree completely with the bolded. In fact, that's the entire basis for my argument. MOss with Brady at the helm is going to be extremely successful.This discussion is about the statistics Moss will put up this year so if you're not interested in statistics then maybe there's no point in discussing.
Thats a different statistical use.One- is discussing football and what will happen on the field. I dont care about the NFL.com stats of last year. I care about how the Patriots offense actually works.

Two- is duscussing how many stats Moss will accumulate in accordance to how the Patriots offense actually works.

For the record, you do not totally agree with "He constantly and consistantly chews up other teams with his quick read, quick release and short to medium crossing patterns" ???
I might have a higher opinion of Brady than you do and that might be the crux of our disagreement here. I think Brady is the best QB in the league and he is much more capable than just throwing the short/medium crossing pass. I think he's very capable of throwing an accurate deep ball; I think he's very capable of hitting a big target on a fade route in the red zone, I think he's very capable of taking what the defense gives him.I wouldn't pigeon-hole him quite the way you describe above.

 
I sort of agree.

The Patriots do adjust to their personnel--for example Corey Dillon got a lot more carries than Antowain Smith ever did.

The problem is that Moss is especially good at two things--catching the ball (glue hands / leaping ability) and deep speed. He can do the intermediate routes, but he doesn't really excel at them.

The Patriots offensive system (which plays to the strengths of their primary stud--Brady) revolves around a lot of quick short passes, and I don't see Moss getting a lot of those. Brady's deep arm has gotten a lot better, but he's still no Manning / Culpepper. Put it this way: Brady isn't going to go deep nearly as often as Culpepper did.

I do think that Moss will be a goal-line vulture, since unlike Watson he can actually catch the football.

If Moss is healthy and committed, I could definitely see him leading the league in TD's, and maybe with 1200 yards as a deep threat. But he has no real shot at "Moss in his prime" kind of yardage, because the offense just isn't going to revolve around him.

Of course my big worry about Moss comes down to the "healthy and committed" part. I don't think he's a bad guy, but he's not exactly Marvin Harrison / Chad Johnson / Torry Holt when it comes to work ethic and fitness.

 
Its possible the Patriots like to spread the ball around because they've never had an elite WR paired with Brady. Now they might have one so the past trends won't affect Moss. Actually I'll favor that line of thought.
In that offense theres no such thing as a stud receiver, everyone is equal (except Brady) in NE and if you think your special... your expendable.Expect Moss to blame his lack of production on targets and for his cries not to get answered. And if he doesn't complain its because their winning. He'll make for a decent WR but wont live upto his ADP.
 
I think a lot of you are living in the past. I don't think RM is the same player he once was. When he starts dropping Brady passes in bunches you will see the light.

 
I might have a higher opinion of Brady than you do and that might be the crux of our disagreement here. I think Brady is the best QB in the league and he is much more capable than just throwing the short/medium crossing pass. I think he's very capable of throwing an accurate deep ball; I think he's very capable of hitting a big target on a fade route in the red zone, I think he's very capable of taking what the defense gives him.I wouldn't pigeon-hole him quite the way you describe above.
I think he has a multitude of strengths and only a couple weaknesses. His deep passing when compared to his intermediate passing is night and day.While he is capable (as you stated), his proclivity on deep passes does not lend to it being a strength.
 
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I think a lot of you are living in the past. I don't think RM is the same player he once was. When he starts dropping Brady passes in bunches you will see the light.
You could very well be correct. However, I don't see dropped passes or Randy's motivation being a huge issue in New England with Brady and Belichick. If Moss stays healthy this season he'll be a fatasy stud...that's my only real concern right now.
 
Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
But thats where the OP disagrees with you! You think that the Pats have a "system" of spreading it around and thats helped them be very successful. OP is saying that they don't have a system like that, but thats what its looked like due to having no good #1 WR. Now that they have a #1 WR they won't change a thing, but it won't seem like they "spread it around" as much.I agree with OP and disagree with you on this point.

However I disagree with OP that Moss is that elite of a WR anymore.

 
I think Moss is a good WR, and still GREAT at a few things, but Stallworth is better and will be more productive IMO.

 
I think that Brady likes to throw to the open guy, and while he may have a favorite, he'll still spread the ball around long and short, to make the D more spread. He doesn't have the long accuracy to be throwing bombs to Moss all day. I think Moss' numbers will be down from his elite past, but better than last year.
:whoosh: I couldn't disagree with this statement more.

Sure he does. What he doesn't have (at least didn't have) is a receiver that could A.) beat coverage deep or B.) catch the friggin' ball. How many times did Brady try André Davis deep in that game two years ago?

We've been hearing that same tired line that "Brady can't throw deep" for far too long now. Time to give it a rest.

 
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Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
But thats where the OP disagrees with you! You think that the Pats have a "system" of spreading it around and thats helped them be very successful. OP is saying that they don't have a system like that, but thats what its looked like due to having no good #1 WR. Now that they have a #1 WR they won't change a thing, but it won't seem like they "spread it around" as much.I agree with OP and disagree with you on this point.

However I disagree with OP that Moss is that elite of a WR anymore.
Not a system. A quarterback.Thats the true catalyst of it all.

 
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Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
But thats where the OP disagrees with you! You think that the Pats have a "system" of spreading it around and thats helped them be very successful. OP is saying that they don't have a system like that, but thats what its looked like due to having no good #1 WR. Now that they have a #1 WR they won't change a thing, but it won't seem like they "spread it around" as much.I agree with OP and disagree with you on this point.

However I disagree with OP that Moss is that elite of a WR anymore.
To be honest, I struggle with this as well. I am not sure that he is still an elite WR. I do think that even right now he's a better WR than Brady has ever had and he'll easily surpass the 998 yards and 5 TDs that Deion Branch put up in the best year for a Brady WR.
 
Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
But thats where the OP disagrees with you! You think that the Pats have a "system" of spreading it around and thats helped them be very successful. OP is saying that they don't have a system like that, but thats what its looked like due to having no good #1 WR. Now that they have a #1 WR they won't change a thing, but it won't seem like they "spread it around" as much.I agree with OP and disagree with you on this point.

However I disagree with OP that Moss is that elite of a WR anymore.
This is exactly my point. I'm fine with somebody saying they don't think Moss is elite anymore. I disagree, but I understand it. I can understand someone saying that Stallworth or Welker or Maroney or Watson are better than Moss, and that they'll get all the touches, while Moss, who is worse, languishes. I strongly disagree with this line of thought, but again, that makes sense to me.

What I don't understand is how someone could say that he's the best receiver on the team, but they don't think that the Pats will throw to him that much. That doesn't make much any sense at all. It's ridiculous to think that someone would design a system that would deliberately avoid throwing more to their best receiver than to the rest of them.

 
Others have mentioned it, but the Pats were known for not riding one running back right up until Corey Dillon came along.

I don't question for one second the fact that they'll get the ball to Moss early and often if he can still perform at an elite level. It's the second part of the equation I worry about, not the first.

 
Why do they need to change a method that is winning at the rate they do?

So you encourage them to change their ways to fit Randy. I think that is folly.

Brady is not about "going to the elite receiver", Brady is about reading and quickly beating the defense.

Thats why they spread it around. Because of Brady, not the system.

Moss is going to run all the short routes and crossing patterns and fight through the middle? Umm no.

Moss will be used to do what he is good at. And he will get his chances, especially around the end zone.

The question is: will Moss be happy winning and play hard even though often times he is being a decoy?

If the answer is yes he can, then I agree they will use him and the numbers you espouse are proper.

If the answer is no he won't, then we all know what will happen. And those numbers arent likely.
But thats where the OP disagrees with you! You think that the Pats have a "system" of spreading it around and thats helped them be very successful. OP is saying that they don't have a system like that, but thats what its looked like due to having no good #1 WR. Now that they have a #1 WR they won't change a thing, but it won't seem like they "spread it around" as much.I agree with OP and disagree with you on this point.

However I disagree with OP that Moss is that elite of a WR anymore.
This is exactly my point. I'm fine with somebody saying they don't think Moss is elite anymore. I disagree, but I understand it. I can understand someone saying that Stallworth or Welker or Maroney or Watson are better than Moss, and that they'll get all the touches, while Moss, who is worse, languishes. I strongly disagree with this line of thought, but again, that makes sense to me.

What I don't understand is how someone could say that he's the best receiver on the team, but they don't think that the Pats will throw to him that much. That doesn't make much any sense at all. It's ridiculous to think that someone would design a system that would deliberately avoid throwing more to their best receiver than to the rest of them.
:ptts: :goodposting: :goodposting: Are we each other's alias?
 
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I actualy think Welker is going to get more total catches working the underneath routes than Moss does. Moss has that effect on an offense because of how he streaches the defense. It makes throwing underneath very easy.

That being said Moss is still going to have more yards and TD than any other Pats WR.

 
[quote name='Warehouse Nasty' post='7168580' date='Aug 16 2007, 12:43 PM'Brady has been killing people with short/medium accurate passing for years now
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.
3600+ (Top 3) yards in each of the last 5 seasons combined with the LOW yards per attempt you quoted implies a LARGE number of short to medium yard completions.

I think you may have accidentally proved the other guy's point....

:thumbup:

 
I think a lot of you are living in the past. I don't think RM is the same player he once was. When he starts dropping Brady passes in bunches you will see the light.
:thumbup: i said this in the other thread.Moss of today is not any better than Branch, and I think he is worse.i am holding steady at my ranking of Moss as WR40. :goodposting:
 
I think that Brady likes to throw to the open guy, and while he may have a favorite, he'll still spread the ball around long and short, to make the D more spread. He doesn't have the long accuracy to be throwing bombs to Moss all day. I think Moss' numbers will be down from his elite past, but better than last year.
:goodposting: I couldn't disagree with this statement more.

Sure he does. What he doesn't have (at least didn't have) is a receiver that could A.) beat coverage deep or B.) catch the friggin' ball. How many times did Brady try André Davis deep in that game two years ago?

We've been hearing that same tired line that "Brady can't throw deep" for far too long now. Time to give it a rest.
:thumbup:
 
Patriots at the other teams 30-35 yard line LOVE taking shots at the end zone.

Randy will get those.

Tom Brady is a good deep ball passer -just don't see it to much.

 
I think Moss is a good WR, and still GREAT at a few things, but Stallworth is better and will be more productive IMO.
:rolleyes: The big IF - really BIG - is Can Stallworth stay healthy? If so, I also believe he will be more productive than Moss.
 
[quote name='Warehouse Nasty' post='7168580' date='Aug 16 2007, 12:43 PM'Brady has been killing people with short/medium accurate passing for years now
Where are you getting this from? NE has ranked 15th, 5th, 8th, and 13th in the NFL in yards per attempt over the past 4 years.
3600+ (Top 3) yards in each of the last 5 seasons combined with the LOW yards per attempt you quoted implies a LARGE number of short to medium yard completions.

I think you may have accidentally proved the other guy's point....

:rolleyes:
They've ranked in the top half of the NFL in YPA. Not sure why you say that's LOW.

 

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