The Raheem Morris unsportsmanlike conduct flag (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

I’m going to try and be as politically correct as possible but certainly there is a grey area here, and I will totally understand if the board mods move this into the FFA. Please think before you post so we can have a discussion about this without it turning into a melee.

Raheem Morris went thru a spectrum of emotions yesterday. Towards the end of the game you could see where his inexperience came into play as the Bucs took the lead and he and his asst coaches were jumping up and down with plenty of time on the clock…act like you have been there before Coach, please.

But maybe that emotion was justified by the earlier call in the game where Jason Taylor had apparently recovered a fumble and ran it back into the end zone. I am a Phinsfan and even I will tell you that on the replay you can clearly see that Michael Clayton caught the ball and was down when the fumble was said to take place. You can call it however you want but it looked clear that Clayton was either down or the ball should have been ruled incomplete.

What happened next was something I rarely ever see. Morris went on to the field to give the officials an earful, nothing more than what many other coaches have done in the NFL for the last 75+ years.

Morris was out there for a little while and finally was so upset that he finally shouts “that call was eff n bs.” Next thing that flew was the yellow flag from the official. Now I am open to hearing from the board but I have never seen a coach hit with a flag for 15 yds in the middle of the game. If you have please cite the coach and when this was because I rarely, in fact I never have seen it called on a coach. I have seen coach’s walk up and down the sidelines and cuss in the NFL Films by Sabol so we know it is not unheard of for a coach to let a few bombs drop from their mouths. Why was this hit with a flag?

I’ll dance around this to some degree but do you think Bill Bellicheck would get that flag? Would John Gruden? Gruden has one of the filthiest mouths of any coach I have ever seen. He makes Charlie Weiss look like a saint. Did Morris’ race have anything at all to do with that flag? You can’t really answer it because we don’t know anything about the referee who threw it.

The board is going to say without a doubt IMO that race never factored into it, I know you all too well. But before you start publicly flogging me for asking the question about race, try for just a second to imagine you were African American and witnessed this on Sunday. I would be a little upset if I was black, and I would at least question the NFL if I had some of the pull that guys like Wilbon, Whitlock, they should be questioning this but I know they won’t.

At best, it looks bad, and even if he was over the line I have seen coaches get even angrier than he did. How bout when Cowher shoved the picture into the coaches pocket some years back as they were running off the field? Did Morris just not go about it the right way? Is there a good way to argue that call? Can’t wait to see the board response to this.

PS: Be civil, thanks.

 

[=Smackdown=]

I seriously doubt it was race related.

I'm a Dolphin fan also - that call was bad and the refs got it wrong. The coach had every right to be upset. Maybe he just said the magic word to the ref? Maybe he doesn't get any leeway cause he's a rookie? I would take either of those 2 scenarios over the one you're bringing up.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

A very young, rookie HC wasn't given the same leeway as Belichick or Gruden when cursing at a ref.

Not a big surprise.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

A very young, rookie HC wasn't given the same leeway as Belichick or Gruden when cursing at a ref. Not a big surprise.

Gruden was very young when he was the HC of the Bucs.When has a flag been called on a HC?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Let me ask a better question.

Could you understand why or how an African American fan might be upset by the call or perhaps interpret the situation differently than you or I might?

 

[=Smackdown=]

IF that African American was a Bucs fan . . . maybe.

I think you're looking to far into this.

He's a rookie HC, probably said the wrong thing to the ref and was on the field of play.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

IF that African American was a Bucs fan . . . maybe.I think you're looking to far into this.He's a rookie HC, probably said the wrong thing to the ref and was on the field of play.

We have a couple posts now where the rookie factor is being spoken of...what should that matter? Is there a double standard then for rookie HC in the NFL?

 

[Hobbes]

I have the same problem with that call as I do with a lot of the technical fouls called in basketball...if the referee really wanted to avoid the confrontation he should have been walking in the other direction...not continuing to come directly at Morris throughout the entire exchange, even as Morris was being pulled backwards by his own coaches.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I have the same problem with that call as I do with a lot of the technical fouls called in basketball...if the referee really wanted to avoid the confrontation he should have been walking in the other direction...not continuing to come directly at Morris throughout the entire exchange, even as Morris was being pulled backwards by his own coaches.

Nice post Hobbes, and you brought up B-Ball which I was going to reference as well. This is not the NBA and coaches are not hit with technicals in the NFL like they are in the NBA so you have to really go over the line and I am trying to see why Morris' situation was handled so much differently.

 

[=Smackdown=]

Still think you're looking into this too much MOP.

In baseball a rookie starting pitcher (for the most part) doesn't get the close strike calls.

In hockey a rookie might not get "close" penalties called against him.

IMO this is along those lines

 

[scooterpea]

I have the same problem with that call as I do with a lot of the technical fouls called in basketball...if the referee really wanted to avoid the confrontation he should have been walking in the other direction...not continuing to come directly at Morris throughout the entire exchange, even as Morris was being pulled backwards by his own coaches.

I agree. What I took from that was that Morris was being led off the field by another coach and the referee kept walking with him listening to every thing Morris was saying. Walk away, go a different direction, don't follow the coach.

 

[(unwelcomed)GUEST]

Uh, Ravens' head coach J.Harbaugh was flagged for unsporstmans-like conduct for giving a ref a mouthful from the sidelines THIS YEAR in New England. He didn't step off the sidelines. Harbaugh is caucasion. HTH

 

[=Smackdown=]

Uh, Ravens' head coach J.Harbaugh was flagged for unsporstmans-like conduct for giving a ref a mouthful from the sidelines THIS YEAR in New England. He didn't step off the sidelines. Harbaugh is caucasion. HTH

Wrong place at the wrong time and said the wrong thing. Skin color had nothing to do with it.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Maybe they were flagging him for being stupid enough to continue arguing the call rather than throw his challenge flag?

Either way. to answer the question about HC's getting flags thrown on them, it's happened many times before, it's just not something that's really remembered because no one screamed "racist!" after the other ones.

Not to mention, who was the ref that threw the flag? I'm sure Morris wasn't the first black coach to ever yell at him, yet the flag didn't come out before. Morris obviously said something that he thought was worth a flag.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Someone please shut this thread down.

 

[The Big Guy]

NFL refs take more crap then refs and umps do in any other league, from what can be seen on TV. The side judge in particular, just by the nature of location, takes more crap then all the others combined. But refs in the NFL do a better job explaining calls and reviewing things with angry coaches then I have seen in any league too.

Morris stepped over the line and got flagged. That is it, let's not get Sharpton involved.

 

[Osaurus]

It's all Micheal Clayton's fault. If he just went about his normal business of dropping the pass or not even seeing the ball in the game, this wouldn't of happened.

 

[B-Deep]

No, not at all, not in the slightest, poor fishing trip.

 

[fatness]

Either way. to answer the question about HC's getting flags thrown on them, it's happened many times before, it's just not something that's really remembered because no one screamed "racist!" after the other ones.

Do you (or does anyone) have examples of this happening before? Thanks.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Someone please shut MOP down.

This is a new low.

 

[ICON211]

Uh, Ravens' head coach J.Harbaugh was flagged for unsporstmans-like conduct for giving a ref a mouthful from the sidelines THIS YEAR in New England. He didn't step off the sidelines. Harbaugh is caucasion. HTH

Cable was also flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct against the Eagles, so thats at least two this year.

 

[FavreCo]

What? I mean seriously.

 

[Todem]

I seriously doubt it was race related.

I'm a Dolphin fan also - that call was bad and the refs got it wrong. The coach had every right to be upset. Maybe he just said the magic word to the ref? Maybe he doesn't get any leeway cause he's a rookie? I would take either of those 2 scenarios over the one you're bringing up.

We have no idea what exactly was said on the field...we don't see and hear everything. And the fact he is a young first year coach has a lot more to do with it IMO. He also may have really said something very foul to give more credence to the flag.

 

[Buffaloes]

Please think before you postThe board is going to say without a doubt IMO that race never factored into it, I know you all too well. But before you start publicly flogging me for asking the question about race, try for just a second to imagine you were African American and witnessed this on Sunday. I would be a little upset if I was black, and I would at least question the NFL if I had some of the pull that guys like Wilbon, Whitlock, they should be questioning this but I know they won’t.

How mad were you after Harbaugh was flagged for pretty much the same thing earlier in the year?

 

[benm3218]

1) Raheem Morris might be a POS human being. He might not be. If he is, it has nothing to do with color, he just might be a jerk and if you are jerk, people are less likely to cut you any slack at all. If you are a black jerk, you might be given the shaft because you are black, but you might because you are a jerk. Refs and officials are like ANY OTHER NICHE PROFESSION, PEOPLE TALK. Which means if you start to get a "rep" of being a certain way, esp as a first impression, it sticks and people whisper. This is no different from a young attorney getting hammered by a whole roster of judges once a "rep" has been established. Those judges are like any other group, they have their own culture, their own social circles, their own informal rituals, their specific "code" of operation and they probably discuss things with each other. Don't hire a lawyer who has a crappy reputation, because it will bleed over to the judges who they face. Don't hire a head coach that all the officials hate because he's a jerk. 2) As stated, Morris is a rookie. Any work environment is about developing functional relationships. Angry Bill or The Chin might not get a flag because both of them have history in the NFL, the refs or officials might have known them for 10-15 years or so. The more you know someone, the more recognizable the person is to you ( officials are fans too in some capacity), the better treatment you will get. Consider "The Pianist", he was famous, people recognized him, he was seen as "valuable", so people worked harder to save him. 3) No one knows what interaction happened leading up to that event. Morris could have been jabbing the officials all game long up to that point. 4) Working officials and refs is really an artform of subtle manipulation. It's a soft skill many don't have in any major sport. Watch Phil Jackson sometime. Always working an angle, always working everyone, always pushing buttons or finding trigger points. The "great coaches", down to Lombardi, had the skill set to wage psychological warfare on everyone around them. Could an official, through life experience and perception, have a problem with black people? Maybe. But is that a better explanation versus one of the following - A) Morris is a rookie head coach where he will have to earn credibility with officialsB) Morris has no history/background over time with officials like many of his coaching brethrenC) Morris lacks the soft skills to effectively "work over" officials and refsD) Morris may have established a negative "reputation" already within the ranks of NFL officialsE) Morris is less likely to get calls because his team is consistently losing, and since officials are also probably fans, that factors in their decisions at some levelandF) Morris might just be a jerk or a POS crappy human being regardless of his color and no one wants to cut slack to a mouth breather. ( Yes, Chase Stuart, sometimes you can't spray paint a Fiat flat black and convince people it's a Ferrari. Sometimes there is no conspiracy. Sometimes it's just about a guy at a BBQ that always makes the crude jokes or farts or picks his nose in front of people or just says the wrong thing all the time and no one wants to be around the guy. )As for an African American viewer possibly being offended, well, my response is what's new? African Americans in the western culture are socialized to believe that complaining is a bigger conduit to social change than merit. You could just shut up and work harder even if people tend to discriminate against you ( Asian Americans) or you could just cry about the way the world works even though the world will never change ( African Americans) ( Yes, Chase Stuart, I'm waiting for the article where the inability of offensive lineman Eugene Chung to stay in the NFL was a systematic conspiracy by NFL front offices to make sure Asian Americans stayed out of participation in high school football throughout the nation, much like the failures of Rodney Peete were seen as the lighting rod for why NFL GM's looked at black QBs with a skewed eye for so long. How about picking the simple answer? Chung and Peete sucked. Remember to shake your can of spray paint before you hose it down, Chase. ) Is it possible for a black NFL viewer to be open to the idea that Raheem Morris might or might not be a lousy human being for his actions with poor character and poor sportsmanship and poor leadership abilities ? If not, then who is the racist? Maybe the NFL should send it's officials and refs to a race sensitivity class after Morris contacts Al Sharpton. Or maybe Morris should go find Phil Jackson and ask for some advice. Novel thought isn't it? That working harder and thinking outside the box might get you further towards your goal than complaining about it. And in breaking news, Tony Dungy reaches out to former NFL QB Todd Marinovich to discuss how crack is bad and how Todd can turn his life around. As if that would happen. ( If it makes you feel better Chase Stuart, Dungy could also probably be accused of being an absentee father as well. But we don't want to talk about stuff like that do we? Let's discuss Andy Reid's felony ridden sons instead. ) There are probably racists all over the NFL. Just take the time to consider the ones that society and the NFL and African Americans might consider as no big deal or not worth complaining about. Gekko

 

[Phurfur]

I’m going to try and be as politically correct as possible but certainly there is a grey area here, and I will totally understand if the board mods move this into the FFA. Please think before you post so we can have a discussion about this without it turning into a melee. Raheem Morris went thru a spectrum of emotions yesterday. Towards the end of the game you could see where his inexperience came into play as the Bucs took the lead and he and his asst coaches were jumping up and down with plenty of time on the clock…act like you have been there before Coach, please. But maybe that emotion was justified by the earlier call in the game where Jason Taylor had apparently recovered a fumble and ran it back into the end zone. I am a Phinsfan and even I will tell you that on the replay you can clearly see that Michael Clayton caught the ball and was down when the fumble was said to take place. You can call it however you want but it looked clear that Clayton was either down or the ball should have been ruled incomplete. What happened next was something I rarely ever see. Morris went on to the field to give the officials an earful, nothing more than what many other coaches have done in the NFL for the last 75+ years.Morris was out there for a little while and finally was so upset that he finally shouts “that call was eff n bs.” Next thing that flew was the yellow flag from the official. Now I am open to hearing from the board but I have never seen a coach hit with a flag for 15 yds in the middle of the game. If you have please cite the coach and when this was because I rarely, in fact I never have seen it called on a coach. I have seen coach’s walk up and down the sidelines and cuss in the NFL Films by Sabol so we know it is not unheard of for a coach to let a few bombs drop from their mouths. Why was this hit with a flag?I’ll dance around this to some degree but do you think Bill Bellicheck would get that flag? Would John Gruden? Gruden has one of the filthiest mouths of any coach I have ever seen. He makes Charlie Weiss look like a saint. Did Morris’ race have anything at all to do with that flag? You can’t really answer it because we don’t know anything about the referee who threw it. The board is going to say without a doubt IMO that race never factored into it, I know you all too well. But before you start publicly flogging me for asking the question about race, try for just a second to imagine you were African American and witnessed this on Sunday. I would be a little upset if I was black, and I would at least question the NFL if I had some of the pull that guys like Wilbon, Whitlock, they should be questioning this but I know they won’t. At best, it looks bad, and even if he was over the line I have seen coaches get even angrier than he did. How bout when Cowher shoved the picture into the coaches pocket some years back as they were running off the field? Did Morris just not go about it the right way? Is there a good way to argue that call? Can’t wait to see the board response to this. PS: Be civil, thanks.

Geez guy, you have a problem.

 

[Instinctive]

1) Raheem Morris might be a POS human being. He might not be. If he is, it has nothing to do with color, he just might be a jerk and if you are jerk, people are less likely to cut you any slack at all. If you are a black jerk, you might be given the shaft because you are black, but you might because you are a jerk. Refs and officials are like ANY OTHER NICHE PROFESSION, PEOPLE TALK. Which means if you start to get a "rep" of being a certain way, esp as a first impression, it sticks and people whisper. This is no different from a young attorney getting hammered by a whole roster of judges once a "rep" has been established. Those judges are like any other group, they have their own culture, their own social circles, their own informal rituals, their specific "code" of operation and they probably discuss things with each other. Don't hire a lawyer who has a crappy reputation, because it will bleed over to the judges who they face. Don't hire a head coach that all the officials hate because he's a jerk. 2) As stated, Morris is a rookie. Any work environment is about developing functional relationships. Angry Bill or The Chin might not get a flag because both of them have history in the NFL, the refs or officials might have known them for 10-15 years or so. The more you know someone, the more recognizable the person is to you ( officials are fans too in some capacity), the better treatment you will get. Consider "The Pianist", he was famous, people recognized him, he was seen as "valuable", so people worked harder to save him. 3) No one knows what interaction happened leading up to that event. Morris could have been jabbing the officials all game long up to that point. 4) Working officials and refs is really an artform of subtle manipulation. It's a soft skill many don't have in any major sport. Watch Phil Jackson sometime. Always working an angle, always working everyone, always pushing buttons or finding trigger points. The "great coaches", down to Lombardi, had the skill set to wage psychological warfare on everyone around them. Could an official, through life experience and perception, have a problem with black people? Maybe. But is that a better explanation versus one of the following - A) Morris is a rookie head coach where he will have to earn credibility with officialsB) Morris has no history/background over time with officials like many of his coaching brethrenC) Morris lacks the soft skills to effectively "work over" officials and refsD) Morris may have established a negative "reputation" already within the ranks of NFL officialsE) Morris is less likely to get calls because his team is consistently losing, and since officials are also probably fans, that factors in their decisions at some levelandF) Morris might just be a jerk or a POS crappy human being regardless of his color and no one wants to cut slack to a mouth breather. ( Yes, Chase Stuart, sometimes you can't spray paint a Fiat flat black and convince people it's a Ferrari. Sometimes there is no conspiracy. Sometimes it's just about a guy at a BBQ that always makes the crude jokes or farts or picks his nose in front of people or just says the wrong thing all the time and no one wants to be around the guy. )As for an African American viewer possibly being offended, well, my response is what's new? African Americans in the western culture are socialized to believe that complaining is a bigger conduit to social change than merit. You could just shut up and work harder even if people tend to discriminate against you ( Asian Americans) or you could just cry about the way the world works even though the world will never change ( African Americans) ( Yes, Chase Stuart, I'm waiting for the article where the inability of offensive lineman Eugene Chung to stay in the NFL was a systematic conspiracy by NFL front offices to make sure Asian Americans stayed out of participation in high school football throughout the nation, much like the failures of Rodney Peete were seen as the lighting rod for why NFL GM's looked at black QBs with a skewed eye for so long. How about picking the simple answer? Chung and Peete sucked. Remember to shake your can of spray paint before you hose it down, Chase. ) Is it possible for a black NFL viewer to be open to the idea that Raheem Morris might or might not be a lousy human being for his actions with poor character and poor sportsmanship and poor leadership abilities ? If not, then who is the racist? Maybe the NFL should send it's officials and refs to a race sensitivity class after Morris contacts Al Sharpton. Or maybe Morris should go find Phil Jackson and ask for some advice. Novel thought isn't it? That working harder and thinking outside the box might get you further towards your goal than complaining about it. And in breaking news, Tony Dungy reaches out to former NFL QB Todd Marinovich to discuss how crack is bad and how Todd can turn his life around. As if that would happen. ( If it makes you feel better Chase Stuart, Dungy could also probably be accused of being an absentee father as well. But we don't want to talk about stuff like that do we? Let's discuss Andy Reid's felony ridden sons instead. ) There are probably racists all over the NFL. Just take the time to consider the ones that society and the NFL and African Americans might consider as no big deal or not worth complaining about. Gekko

more

 

[TommyGilmore]

Not race-related, but probably rookie-related.

A white rookie coach probably gets the same flag. A black veteran coach gets a little more leeway.

 

[fatness]

Uh, Ravens' head coach J.Harbaugh was flagged for unsporstmans-like conduct for giving a ref a mouthful from the sidelines THIS YEAR in New England. He didn't step off the sidelines. Harbaugh is caucasion. HTH

Cable was also flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct against the Eagles, so thats at least two this year.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of either.

 

[Possum]

What? I mean seriously.

:X "Deep Thoughts, by Ministry Of Pain"

 

[Dragon1952]

The worst thing that ever happened to football, was to make the refs 'visible'. I'm talking about mikes and extensive explanations, all meant to make it more clear to the viewing audience, but also bringing them into the limelight and making them personalities. They spend more time on camera than most of the players. They all have to posture now and look cool on TV, hence crap like this.

 

[phthalatemagic]

posting in an MOP thread

 

[QUEZILLA]

With 1:38 left in the second quarter, Miami scored 10 quick points to build a 19-9 lead with the help of referee Tony Corrente. The Buccaneers were the victims of a ridiculously horrible NFL rule that came into play with 1:38 left before halftime in their own end of the field. Josh Freeman’s pass to wide receiver Michael Clayton was complete and Clayton was tackled by cornerback Vontae Davis and safety Yeremiah Bell at the Tampa Bay 15-yard line for what should have been a first down as Clayton appeared to be down by contact. However, once down with his back on the ground, the ball popped up into the arms of Miami defensive end Jason Taylor, who took it back 15 yards for an apparent touchdown. Corrente reviewed the play with instant replay and upheld the interception, although he awarded Miami the ball at the spot of the interception. Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 on page 51 of the NFL Rule Book states that “If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact with an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or in the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.”The ball never hit the ground and Taylor was able to pick it off for Miami.The call in this game resembled the one made in Oakland’s season-opening 24-20 home loss to San Diego in which Raiders rookie receiver Louis Murphy appeared to catch a touchdown, but the play was ruled incomplete because Murphy did not maintain possession even after he hit the ground. After the game, Corrente explained the controversial call to the media’s pool reporter: “The player in question, the player who was possessing the ball in the air, as he started to come down, was hit. As he is coming down, he is now going to the ground to complete a catch and by rule, if he’s going to the ground to complete a catch, he has to maintain possession of the ball completely through the entire process of hitting the ground and thereafter showing control. As he went to the ground, basically right when he went to the ground, the ball popped out, and went right into the arms of the Miami player. The ball had never touched the ground.”Morris was livid over the play and flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. Miami took over at the Tampa Bay 8-yard line. After a 3-yard pass to Williams, Henne found rookie tight end Kory Sperry in the end zone over middle linebacker Barrett Ruud for a touchdown. With 1:25 left before halftime, Miami led 16-6. “This loss is solely on me,” Morris said. “At the end of the half, getting a personal foul on the head coach is unacceptable. I’m taking those points. That’s on me. That’s what we lost by and I should be given blame for that. That was a discipline issue on my part and I didn’t do the right thing. That’s a great lesson for me as a young coach and it’s a great lesson for my team.”Morris indicated that he wasn’t satisfied with Corrente’s explanation. “He was trying to give it to me, but I didn’t want to hear it at that point,” Morris said. “It didn’t matter what his explanation was. I didn’t care. I thought it was the wrong call and he disagreed. He’s the official.“I didn’t see it the same way, but the official makes the call, and ultimately at the end of the day that’s what we’re dealing with.”

 

[domvin]

Its not just refs who are racist, its the whole NFL. Did you know these flags are made out of cotton?

come on. This is a reach. Some anti-conspiracy against what is really a conspiracy? What mystery?

Sure theres a level of respect in the football world. Remember Lou Holtz getting the ref in the headlock, nary a flag? Sure, he was "just" trying to prove a point, but if Morriss is around for ten years, he'll have a longer leash....

end of story

 

[big0mar]

Morris got the flag because he wouldn't drop it. The refs gave him his time to argue, but he just wouldn't give it up.

And the call was the correct call.

 

[Tom Servo]

Stinky bait...just don't bite.

 

[Jason Wood]

The Joe Gibbs mention is a bit misleading as he was flagged for calling consecutive time outs to 'ice' the kicker. But as others have said, Harbaugh and Cable got flagged recently for the same thing and, unless my eyes deceive, they're Caucasian.