Ozymandias
Footballguy
Damn! I didn't know she wrote the Constitution. I always thought James Madison had something to do with it.
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The scapegoating of illegal immigrants (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
snogger
Footballguy
This is not a personal attack calling you stupid.. It is saying this argument is Stupid. Enforce the laws on the books.. Period.. end of story..
timschochet
Footballguy
On the contrary, I have stated time and again my argument against it. If you don't find it to be valid, that's your opinion. Let me ask you a question, Raydarr: let's say you stop a car speeding, and there is a couple, husband and wife, who are illegal. But there are also two young children who were born here. What then?
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
Best Nipsey Shtick ® ever!
snogger
Footballguy
Wave
They are free to leave their kids with LEGAL relatives or bring them back to their own country with them.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Thanks for the distinction. Although I've already been personally called stupid twice in this thread. (And progressive.)
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Poetry on a gift from the French is a poor substitute for the Constitution. It is a glorious expression of a wish, a fervent prayer even, but from another time so different fro our own as to be totally anachronistic in this day and age.I would not have pegged you as a romantic.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
The ideal here, of course, is the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, as any progressive well knows. They allowed the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians into their country. They invited the Ukrainians in. They made it easy for the Georgians, Armenians, and others. They were so inclusive.
snogger
Footballguy
Yea.. I saw that.. I've been called worse and although I disagree 100% with your argument, that does not make YOU stupid.. Just the argument.Thanks for the distinction. Although I've already been personally called stupid twice in this thread. (And progressive.)
timschochet
Footballguy
It's not an anachronistic ideal. It's based upon the bedrock of which this nation was founded. We are a country of immigrants, because we revere individual freedom more than anywhere else on Earth. My grandparents came to this country through Ellis Island, and yes, they came legally, but only because there was open legal immigration at that time. If there had not been, and there had been an illegal means for my grandparents to sneak in, they would have done so. As it was, they broke several laws of the countries they were in crossing borders to get to the boat.
Rayderr
Footballguy
This.Disclaimer: I am all for letting the immigrants come to America. I'm all for changing the process so it's easier for them to come to the country legally. I'm in favor of programs like work visas. And I'm in favor of coming up with a solution that would grant at least some immunity to those already here.Wave :(They are free to leave their kids with LEGAL relatives or bring them back to their own country with them.
But, it is illegal for them to be here so until that changes, they face the consequences. If I go out and kill a mime, there'd be a lot of people who would say I had every right to do it, because honestly, who likes mimes? 5 - 10 years down the road, they may change the laws to make killing mimes legal. Heck, it might even replace baseball as our national pastime. But since it's illegal now, I would deserve to go to jail for it.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Sarcasm?
glumpy
breeze
They go too. It's been several years I believe since being related either by birth or by marriage was an automatic path to a green card.My area does the same thing as Rayderr describes, and I think it's the most reasonable way to go. For one thing there's virtually no extra manpower wasted on hunting people down, so the police can focus more on their primary functions. For another, it culls out some of the ones who are less desirable--because the system is not only for speeding, but is also in effect for more serious driving offenses (DUI, eg.) as well as other crimes. The ones who are actually working hard and living responsibly then are less likely to cross the law until such a time when the country decides how to deal with the overall issue.
timschochet
Footballguy
I have to go. I have enjoyed this discussion, and will return to it later. Hopefully there is somebody else out there willing to take my side so that this thead doesn't become completely one-sided in my absence.
Rayderr
Footballguy
Anybody else have a ball we can play with?
Gordo
Footballguy
:( So now you want to deport U.S. Citizens because their parents are illegal immigrants?
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Rayderr
Footballguy
They could turn them over to Child Services.
Gordo
Footballguy
I guess that is one option. I am sure creating wards of the state will end up being much cheaper than the alternative.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
This guy gets it. The problem with the economic argument for illegal immigrants, is that you can make the same type of economic argument for any illegal activity.
PewterFan
Footballguy
Hand over your man-card now.
PewterFan
Footballguy
Great economy, poor economy, they're still here illegally.
Topes
Footballguy
Easier said than done. My wife worked on the books illegally for a couple years, way back in the early 90s.The income taxes paid are long gone and forgotten.There are forms with which one is supposed to be able to get the Social Security payments all connectorated with their legitimate SS ID. Tried a few times to get this all squared away, back in the late 90s, to no avail at all.Oh well.
Topes
Footballguy
Not that you did it with any deliberate intent, but you (comically, of course) used murder as a corollary to being here illegally. It likely came naturally. The reduction of people to "illegals" is common and widespread. Comparing their transgressions to those worthy of prison is almost automatic. The vitriol regarding these "illegals" is quite often sanctimonious and ill-informed.Who among us doesn’t like NASCAR?
Ozymandias
Footballguy
That's the point. It doesn't really matter whether illegal immigrants add to the economy or detract from the economy, it doesn't matter whether our economy is good or bad, they are here illegally and should be deported.The Emma Lazarus poem is a wonderful poem, but it isn't US law. The USA was founded on the principle or religious freedom, too. The Bill of Rights states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof . This does not mean that I have a right to walk into the US Congress and conduct religious services for my Church of the What's Happening Now, or to go into a schoolhouse and do the same.
We have laws, and all should abide by them, citizens and non-citizens alike. If you don't like the law, get it changed. We have a process to do that.
Rayderr
Footballguy
Well, murder of a mime. I'm pretty sure in some countries that the same as littering.The fact still remains, if it's still a crime, you'll do the time (or in the case of illegals, get deported as we don't want to fill up our jails with them.)
mmmWaffles
Footballguy
I can only tell you from anectodal evidence what I've seen:
I live in a "gentrified" neighborhood. (Meaning: Tear down the projects / crack houses and put up $400K TownHomes). I see Latina workers busting their hump every day keeping the place clean, working construction, landscaping, moving, being barbacks, kitchen help, etc. I know some of these guys personally. I've driven them the 15 miles to their place (that they share with many others) when they miss their bus, it rains, etc. The work damn hard and do so to feed their families back home. They're not living the good life, they're busting their hump, living frugally and taking care of their family.
The '4th Ward' people I see every day? They'll walk right past a construction / landscaping project to beg me for money. They'll walk right past movers to beg for money. In the many years I've lived in this neighborhood, I've yet to see a single one of the locals take any of the jobs around here. But they hve no problem begging and hanging out. And the fathers? Are no where to be found - much less working hard to take care of their family.
Am I talking about an entire race of people (in either paragraph?) no. Just a class of them. We have a restaurant that is hugely successful and the staff (largely AA) is friendly and hard working. (And the food's incredible) And, not surprisingly, when they expanded and needed more help, despite being surrounded by "their own", they had to hire Latinas to work for them. That's a quote from one of the Managers. I don't think they were overly thrilled by this, more like disgusted and disappointed that the same people who beg at their doorstep and harass their customers would completely ignore the "help wanted" sign at their door.
While there is lazy scum of all sizes and colors, it's hard to believe anyone would pay the money / risk their life and incarceration to come to America without a pretty serious will to work. Everyone I've personally met manifests that will on a daily basis. I've got nothing but good things to say about them as individuals.
...But it's a lot more fun to paint them in the abstract, no?
I live in a "gentrified" neighborhood. (Meaning: Tear down the projects / crack houses and put up $400K TownHomes). I see Latina workers busting their hump every day keeping the place clean, working construction, landscaping, moving, being barbacks, kitchen help, etc. I know some of these guys personally. I've driven them the 15 miles to their place (that they share with many others) when they miss their bus, it rains, etc. The work damn hard and do so to feed their families back home. They're not living the good life, they're busting their hump, living frugally and taking care of their family.
The '4th Ward' people I see every day? They'll walk right past a construction / landscaping project to beg me for money. They'll walk right past movers to beg for money. In the many years I've lived in this neighborhood, I've yet to see a single one of the locals take any of the jobs around here. But they hve no problem begging and hanging out. And the fathers? Are no where to be found - much less working hard to take care of their family.
Am I talking about an entire race of people (in either paragraph?) no. Just a class of them. We have a restaurant that is hugely successful and the staff (largely AA) is friendly and hard working. (And the food's incredible) And, not surprisingly, when they expanded and needed more help, despite being surrounded by "their own", they had to hire Latinas to work for them. That's a quote from one of the Managers. I don't think they were overly thrilled by this, more like disgusted and disappointed that the same people who beg at their doorstep and harass their customers would completely ignore the "help wanted" sign at their door.
While there is lazy scum of all sizes and colors, it's hard to believe anyone would pay the money / risk their life and incarceration to come to America without a pretty serious will to work. Everyone I've personally met manifests that will on a daily basis. I've got nothing but good things to say about them as individuals.
...But it's a lot more fun to paint them in the abstract, no?
I can't believe I'm going to waste time on this, AGAIN. Tim, I thought you weren't going to start threads anymore and, on a topic such as this that has been debate over and over, couldn't you have just done a search and bumped one of the preexisting threads?
Anyways.....
The PROBLEMS with Illegal Immigration
1) They ARE a net drain on the system. Anyone who says different is a "progressive" like Timmy here. Hospital emergency rooms are closing at an alarming rate in border states. AFAIK the unanimous reason is the cost of illegals to their bottom line since anyone who walks in to an emergency room has to be treated by law. Illegals use the emergency room as their family practitioner and emergency room care is much more expensive than a regular doctor visit. Additionally, there is the cost of educating their children, some US citizens and some not, the cost of incarceration which is significant, the cost of social programs they are entitled to especially if they have kids here, the cost of the extra infrastructure needed to support 10% more people in the country, etc.....FAIR, an organization Timmy mentioned earlier, just came out with their latest study which shows that in CA illegals cost the state 13 BILLION dollars a year. That's a LOT of money, and that's just CA.
2) There are a lot of illegals in prison. People such as Tim pretend that the only law these people break is walking across the border to "make a better life for them self" but they do commit other crimes. Yes, it's not all of them but it's not an insignificant percent either.
3) Latino gangs have become a huge problem due to illegal immigration. Do a search on MS-13, a latino gang that was actually started in the US but does heavy recruiting in Latin America and brings those members here. It's a huge problem in this country and one of the most violent gangs we have of any race.
4) We NEED to have a secure border. Not only do illegal immigrants cross it but terrorists cross it as well. Also, our border agents are continually shot at and put in harms way.
5) Illegals don't assimilate. They form their own communities, don't learn English, and instead of trying to become Americanized they turn their areas in to the same cess pools they came from. Not to mention cultural issues. California now has a huge problem with #### fighting, which is illegal almost everywhere in the US. But it's common in Latin America so in areas with high concentrations of illegals you have a big problem with it. This may sound trivial but #### fighting leads to a lot of other issues, just as prostitution does. Not to mention it's completely inhumane.
6) One of the big problems that isn't talked about much is 2nd/3rd generation illegals. Any kids born of illegals while in this country are automatically US citizens. This should be changed as that was never the intent of this provision but that's another issue. The problem is, in states such as CA these children grow up and are then part of our voting population. They vote in very liberal ways and this, IMO, is one of the reasons CA has gone over the Abyss. These people are now in power and come from a culture where corruption in politics is status quo. About 5 years ago the State/Feds actually arrested basically the entire city council in a Latino community in the Los Angeles area for corruption. This is what they came from in Mexico and other Latin American cultures and, just like we learn what our parents teach us, it flows down the line with the illegals. Many of the people in state power come from this background and they vote for more and more pro illegal measures every year.
7) Identity theft. Illegals are being tied to identity theft more and more. They make up or buy SSN numbers of American Citizens and use it to work here. This causes a myriad of problems for the CITIZEN who actually owns that SSN number. I read about a lady in Iowa who TRIED to go on workman's comp. for a legit injury only to find out she couldn't because she was already on workman's comp!!!! An illegal using her SSN number had been on workman's comp. and then a few months later she got a hefty tax bill from the Feds for the illegal as well.
8) This will sound disingenuous coming from an illegal immigrant opponent but it's true. Our use of illegal immigrant labor for low paying jobs is human exploitation. People think everything is cheaper with the illegals so they don't care if they're being paid under the table in 3rd world wages but it's not only illegal, it's wrong. Anyone who thinks it's ok believes in human exploitation. I don't.
The FALLACIES of fixing the problem
Timmy and other "progressive" open border people cite problems with getting rid of illegals - "We can't deport 20 million people!!!! It's not possible."
1) We don't have to deport them. Go after the employers like we're supposed to. The federal government has a great database that many employers use to verify SSN numbers. Federal agencies are required to use it and many private employers use it as well. It's been in pilot for years and the pilot went very well. Illegal immigration apologists like Timmy here push against the use of this database, saying it can cause delays in employment and mistakes can be made. While this is true the issues in the pilot have been minimal and the benefits certainly outweigh the downside. In addition, targeted raids as have been happening with more frequency the last couple of years make a huge impact. You don't have to go into every workplace. Word spreads fast. If the illegals even THINK you might come after them they get scared. The problem is we do it so infrequently there isn't much threat.
2) If you go after the employers to make it hard for illegals to find work, most will go home. This has been shown by how many have left just due to the economic downturn. Hundreds of thousands of illegals have left in the last year alone due to problems finding work.
3) If you secure the border and go after employers it becomes difficult for the illegal to come back once he's out of the country. So, you've stopped the incoming flow.
4) After you've stopped the incoming flow and most have gone home due to workplace enforcement, you have maybe 10-20% of the problem remaining. Those are the ones we end up deporting. But we can do that as we come across them via local arrest or other means. We don't have to go door to door looking for illegals.
But We NEED them to do jobs Americans won't do!!!!
Another fallacy.
1) I posted a link to a study last year that showed that the average American family will see a $5 YEARLY increase in the cost of fruits/veggies if illegals weren't picking them. People such as Timmy like to suggest that prices would skyrocket if illegals weren't here to pick our fruits. This simply isn't true. This study was by a completely unbiased researcher and was NOT refuted by ANY illegal alien apologists.
2) Being able to hire illegals cheap has delayed the implementation of mechanized devices for picking fruits. We can build a car with robotics but can't pick an apple from a tree? Not true. There's just no reason to deploy such means when illegals are cheap.
3) If we do want/need some immigrant labor we need to be in control of it. We need to secure our border and remove as many as possible. Then we can consider some type of guest worker program if still needed. What we can't have is illegals just walking across the border with us not knowing who is in our country and being in control of when they come and go.
There simply is no reason NOT to deal with this issue, including getting rid of those already here. Amnesty is not an option because is rewards coming here illegally while millions of people sit in other countries waiting to come here legally.
Anyways.....
The PROBLEMS with Illegal Immigration
1) They ARE a net drain on the system. Anyone who says different is a "progressive" like Timmy here. Hospital emergency rooms are closing at an alarming rate in border states. AFAIK the unanimous reason is the cost of illegals to their bottom line since anyone who walks in to an emergency room has to be treated by law. Illegals use the emergency room as their family practitioner and emergency room care is much more expensive than a regular doctor visit. Additionally, there is the cost of educating their children, some US citizens and some not, the cost of incarceration which is significant, the cost of social programs they are entitled to especially if they have kids here, the cost of the extra infrastructure needed to support 10% more people in the country, etc.....FAIR, an organization Timmy mentioned earlier, just came out with their latest study which shows that in CA illegals cost the state 13 BILLION dollars a year. That's a LOT of money, and that's just CA.
2) There are a lot of illegals in prison. People such as Tim pretend that the only law these people break is walking across the border to "make a better life for them self" but they do commit other crimes. Yes, it's not all of them but it's not an insignificant percent either.
3) Latino gangs have become a huge problem due to illegal immigration. Do a search on MS-13, a latino gang that was actually started in the US but does heavy recruiting in Latin America and brings those members here. It's a huge problem in this country and one of the most violent gangs we have of any race.
4) We NEED to have a secure border. Not only do illegal immigrants cross it but terrorists cross it as well. Also, our border agents are continually shot at and put in harms way.
5) Illegals don't assimilate. They form their own communities, don't learn English, and instead of trying to become Americanized they turn their areas in to the same cess pools they came from. Not to mention cultural issues. California now has a huge problem with #### fighting, which is illegal almost everywhere in the US. But it's common in Latin America so in areas with high concentrations of illegals you have a big problem with it. This may sound trivial but #### fighting leads to a lot of other issues, just as prostitution does. Not to mention it's completely inhumane.
6) One of the big problems that isn't talked about much is 2nd/3rd generation illegals. Any kids born of illegals while in this country are automatically US citizens. This should be changed as that was never the intent of this provision but that's another issue. The problem is, in states such as CA these children grow up and are then part of our voting population. They vote in very liberal ways and this, IMO, is one of the reasons CA has gone over the Abyss. These people are now in power and come from a culture where corruption in politics is status quo. About 5 years ago the State/Feds actually arrested basically the entire city council in a Latino community in the Los Angeles area for corruption. This is what they came from in Mexico and other Latin American cultures and, just like we learn what our parents teach us, it flows down the line with the illegals. Many of the people in state power come from this background and they vote for more and more pro illegal measures every year.
7) Identity theft. Illegals are being tied to identity theft more and more. They make up or buy SSN numbers of American Citizens and use it to work here. This causes a myriad of problems for the CITIZEN who actually owns that SSN number. I read about a lady in Iowa who TRIED to go on workman's comp. for a legit injury only to find out she couldn't because she was already on workman's comp!!!! An illegal using her SSN number had been on workman's comp. and then a few months later she got a hefty tax bill from the Feds for the illegal as well.
8) This will sound disingenuous coming from an illegal immigrant opponent but it's true. Our use of illegal immigrant labor for low paying jobs is human exploitation. People think everything is cheaper with the illegals so they don't care if they're being paid under the table in 3rd world wages but it's not only illegal, it's wrong. Anyone who thinks it's ok believes in human exploitation. I don't.
The FALLACIES of fixing the problem
Timmy and other "progressive" open border people cite problems with getting rid of illegals - "We can't deport 20 million people!!!! It's not possible."
1) We don't have to deport them. Go after the employers like we're supposed to. The federal government has a great database that many employers use to verify SSN numbers. Federal agencies are required to use it and many private employers use it as well. It's been in pilot for years and the pilot went very well. Illegal immigration apologists like Timmy here push against the use of this database, saying it can cause delays in employment and mistakes can be made. While this is true the issues in the pilot have been minimal and the benefits certainly outweigh the downside. In addition, targeted raids as have been happening with more frequency the last couple of years make a huge impact. You don't have to go into every workplace. Word spreads fast. If the illegals even THINK you might come after them they get scared. The problem is we do it so infrequently there isn't much threat.
2) If you go after the employers to make it hard for illegals to find work, most will go home. This has been shown by how many have left just due to the economic downturn. Hundreds of thousands of illegals have left in the last year alone due to problems finding work.
3) If you secure the border and go after employers it becomes difficult for the illegal to come back once he's out of the country. So, you've stopped the incoming flow.
4) After you've stopped the incoming flow and most have gone home due to workplace enforcement, you have maybe 10-20% of the problem remaining. Those are the ones we end up deporting. But we can do that as we come across them via local arrest or other means. We don't have to go door to door looking for illegals.
But We NEED them to do jobs Americans won't do!!!!
Another fallacy.
1) I posted a link to a study last year that showed that the average American family will see a $5 YEARLY increase in the cost of fruits/veggies if illegals weren't picking them. People such as Timmy like to suggest that prices would skyrocket if illegals weren't here to pick our fruits. This simply isn't true. This study was by a completely unbiased researcher and was NOT refuted by ANY illegal alien apologists.
2) Being able to hire illegals cheap has delayed the implementation of mechanized devices for picking fruits. We can build a car with robotics but can't pick an apple from a tree? Not true. There's just no reason to deploy such means when illegals are cheap.
3) If we do want/need some immigrant labor we need to be in control of it. We need to secure our border and remove as many as possible. Then we can consider some type of guest worker program if still needed. What we can't have is illegals just walking across the border with us not knowing who is in our country and being in control of when they come and go.
There simply is no reason NOT to deal with this issue, including getting rid of those already here. Amnesty is not an option because is rewards coming here illegally while millions of people sit in other countries waiting to come here legally.
mmmWaffles
Footballguy
I know it's easier to cut and paste from a blog than do any thoughtful analysis, but look back to last year in Colorado when they implemented their crackdown on II. They couldn't find workers to do the work. - Period. Hell, we can't get teenagers to work at McD's for $8 an hour. They couldn't get NOLA people to take jobs at TWICE that amount. - And guess who came in to rebuild NOLA? Yep, the latino workers. That's not blog fodder, those are actual news stories that we've all seen. - You can do one-sided studies all day long, but again, anectdotally, the studies just don't match reality. And what do you propose? Finding 25,000 school buses to take 12 Million illegals home? - It's just not realistic. Though, if they committ a felony, their butt should be headed across the border - not to our prisons.StrikeS2k said:
So, some illegal commits armed robbery. We send him back to Mexico. He's back here two days later. That's your solution? Well thought out
Trust me, I wrote every word of that. Given your response you obviously didn't read it though so how would you know whether it was thoughtful analysis?
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mmmWaffles
Footballguy
mexican prison genius.So, some illegal commits armed robbery. We send him back to Mexico. He's back here two days later. That's your solution? Well thought out
You'd have to get Mexico to agree to that, wouldn't you? Considering how they deal with extradition of illegals who commit murder up here and run back home I wouldn't put too much faith in them putting their own citizens in prison for simply breaking laws up here.mexican prison genius.So, some illegal commits armed robbery. We send him back to Mexico. He's back here two days later. That's your solution? Well thought out
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
But it's some of the craziest #### ever written
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
And it's hard to find anyone that witnessed a silent scream.
timschochet
Footballguy
Strike makes great and convincing arguments on behalf of his viewpoint, which is the nativist one. Of course, all of his arguments are wrong or invalid, but they're great and convincing all the same. Well done, Strike!
How can they be both great and convincing and wrong at the same time? Because he only paints part of the whole picture. Unfortunately, my time is limited at the moment, so I can't go back and refute every point Strike makes. Later on I will try to address them one by one.
But one thing I want to stress for now. Even if you agree with all of Strike's viewpoints about this issue, please recognize that it is highly unrealistic that any of his proposed solutions will ever be enacted. We are stuck with illegal immigrants whether we like them or not. The vital question is not how to remove them (it's impossible) but what to do with them now that they're here.
How can they be both great and convincing and wrong at the same time? Because he only paints part of the whole picture. Unfortunately, my time is limited at the moment, so I can't go back and refute every point Strike makes. Later on I will try to address them one by one.
But one thing I want to stress for now. Even if you agree with all of Strike's viewpoints about this issue, please recognize that it is highly unrealistic that any of his proposed solutions will ever be enacted. We are stuck with illegal immigrants whether we like them or not. The vital question is not how to remove them (it's impossible) but what to do with them now that they're here.
dparker713
Footballguy
Sorry, but a national policy shouldn't be based on anectdotal evidence from one part of the country. They might benefit Colorado, but do you honestly believe they benefit CA at this point? The problem is the argument isn't whether or not they help our economy, its whether or not we're going to enforce our laws or brush them aside because its convenient. Want the money to enforce the border? Transfer funds from the DEA - its in many ways the same fight. Oh, and not that we'd need to deport all 12 million on our dime, but even if we did, grayhound tickets cost about $100. Double that to provide security and even still you're looking at less than 3 billion dollars - or the amount we've spent in Iraq every three days for 6 years.
mmmWaffles
Footballguy
Uh, well you MIGHT want to take a peek at who's actually behind California's $31 BiLLION dollar agricultural industry there skippy.
dparker713
Footballguy
We're not at all stuck with them. Just as this was a problem that developed over time, its not a problem that will be fixed overnight. Oh, and how is it that none of the anti-law people mention that the second largest revenue stream in Mexico is from people in the US (illegal, legal and citizens) sending money back across the border when discussing the economic red-herrings?
dparker713
Footballguy
You mean the same agriculture industry that is woefully under mechanized? In the same state that has bankrupted itself providing services to too many people, with ER closing, schools overcrowding, and a prison population that is nearly twice capacity and was just ordered by the courts to release nearly 40% of them?And all the arguments about some illegals not availing themselves of services doesnt hold water in CA - they've no fear of being reported by authorities so they avail themselves fully of the services.Uh, well you MIGHT want to take a peek at who's actually behind California's $31 BiLLION dollar agricultural industry there skippy.
All this is again moot. This isnt a economic issue - its a rule of law issue. And the rule of law is the true backbone of our country. We let that fall by the wayside and we'll have alot more problems than we do now.
Yes, because that's a much cheaper alternative to letting them remain in the custody of their illegal parents who have been providing for them up until that point.They could turn them over to Child Services.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Your naked assertion does not make it so. Oh I suppose if one were to set a 100% goal this may be true, but I do not see why they cannot be effectively eliminated over time.As a postulate I will presume tha each of the 50 States has, between State, County and Municipal courts, 50 jurisdictions (an incredibly low number) and an additional 10 agencies. This makes 3000 potential points of contact per day. I will postulate that each one of these points of contact only encounters 1 illegal alien per day (from my participation in the courts I can tell you that is a ridiculously low number to postulate, but I do want to be fair). That makes 3000 illegals contaced per day. That is over 1 million illegals contacted per year. Seems to me those ultra conservative numbers indicate the problem is imminently addressable over a fairly short period of time, particularly when one postulates that some of the deportees would end up taking their families with them.
Once such a program starts in earnest one also has to wonder whether that will change the risk calculation these illegals go through in deciding whether to stay. I submit that logically it would, and that this would cause some colateral flight along with discouraging some influx.
Coupled with a more secure border I think the numbers are significant and that more than a naked assertion is necessary. Big numbers are not so intimidating when one breaks them down into bite size pieces and takes a consistent approach to chewing on them.
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jonessed
Footballguy
Good for them. And they did it without handouts. Our system cannot handle immigration like it once did because it puts a much greater burden on the government now. If you come here now you get free food, free childcare, free healthcare, free spending money, and in some cases free housing. All on someone else's dime. If you want to come here and make a place for yourself then make it.
RoarinSonoran
Footballguy
Deport repeat offenders about 12 miles beyond our eastern and western borders.So, some illegal commits armed robbery. We send him back to Mexico. He's back here two days later. That's your solution? Well thought out
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Yea, because of all those illegals working in the banking system. Darn them!
mmmWaffles
Footballguy
Yep. Bernie Madoff :far worse impact on the economy than: Juan.
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phthalatemagic
Footballguy
I think it's nice that Mr Ham remade himself into a poster that doesn't go on insulting barrages. So a :thumbups: to that
We are a country of (mostly) LEGAL immigrants. While it sounds romantic Timmy, we simply can't take in EVERY person in the world that wants to come here. And, specifically, Latin Americans. A poll was done in Mexico to find out how many people there would come here if they could and it was a large majority of their ENTIRE population. And that's just one country. If someone lives in a country that sucks the solution is to fix that country, not invade a neighboring one and bring it down to the level of the country the person left.
I'd respond to your specific points but I have made myself a policy not to converse on this topic with anyone who throws out the "racism" or "xenophobe" term. It's an intimidation tactic used far too often in discussions about race and illegal immigration. I probably shouldn't even discuss this with Tim as he's done the same. It's a shame otherwise intelligent people have to resort to the race card in these types of discussion.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
If anything, for the most part, illegals are a great benefit to the economy. Cheap labor is absolutely essential for many industries in America, without it we would see their demise the same way we have of unionized industries in America. Really the only negative is the amount of money they tend to transfer out of the economy but actually that eventually has a positive impact on our economy as it helps develop South and Central America with cash infusion.
