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The Science is Settled: GW is Conspiracy/Fraud (1 Viewer)

jon_mx

Footballguy
The best article yet on the hacked e-mails which exposes a massive conspiracy among the top climate change experts to manipulate data and marginalize anyone who opposes their social justice agenda of global warming.

The Death Blow to Climate Change

These people controlled the global weather data used by the IPCC through the joint Hadley and CRU and produced the HadCRUT data. They controlled the IPCC, especially crucial chapters and especially preparation of the Summary for PolicyMakers (SPM). Stephen Schneider was a prime mover there from the earliest reports to the most influential in 2001. They also had a left wing conduit to the New York Times. The emails between Andy Revkin and the community are very revealing and must place his journalistic integrity in serious jeopardy. Of course the IPCC Reports and especially the SPM Reports are the basis for Kyoto and the Copenhagen Accord, but now we know they are based on completely falsified and manipulated data and science. It is no longer a suspicion. Surely this is the death knell for the CRU, the IPCC, Kyoto and Copenhagen and the Carbon Credits shell game.

 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
 
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I am sure 60 minutes, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, NY Times, Boston Globe, Newsweek, Time, MSNBC ... will be quick to follow up on this story. After all it is journalism and the topic is important.

 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
Try William Gray :lmao:
 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
You need to read a bit further. In fact, forget the article and just read the data that got hacked.
 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.

With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:

Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
Typical Wikipedia slime job....This story is just getting out, but there are other sources....One

Two

Three

Four

 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.

Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...

I hate this subject.

 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
:coffee: I will never understand why Conservatives are so afraid to admit this. Is there some secret agreement with Big Oil that you all get money from gasoline sales if you try to invalidate the need for alternate energy sources? I will never get this.
 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
Then why waste valuable resources on a problem that does not exist? If CO2 is not the biggest problem facing the planet, and taxes on energy is not going to help, why are we trying to cripple our entire economy with these stupid plans? If we are worried about diminishing resources, then attack that problem, don't create some fictional crisis.
 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
You need to read a bit further. In fact, forget the article and just read the data that got hacked.
The Official Happy Ragnarok Guide to Seeing Through the Bull#### in Life, as written by Happy Ragnarok, a guy who makes his living using written bull#### to manipulate mass audiences.1. Consider the source. If it is biased, disregard the message.2. Consider the language. If it is biased OR intentionally manipulative, disregard the message.3. Consider the message on its own merits.The piece quoted in the OP failed number 1, but just for the record, "reading a bit further" as suggested in this post, showed that it failed number 2 as well.But I will check out some of the other links provided. Thanks for taking the time to post them.
 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
Great, then frame it this way and tell people the real damage instead of trying to use scare tactics. Do you think using faked experiments as evidence to suggest marijuana causes brain damage is an effective way to curb its use? That's what this seems the equivalent of. People don't respond to propoganda, except for the most weak minded, and in fact can become abrasive when you try to feed it to them.
 
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The CRU hack

Filed under:

* Climate Science

— group @ 20 November 2009

As many of you will be aware, a large number of emails from the University of East Anglia webmail server were hacked recently (Despite some confusion generated by Anthony Watts, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Hadley Centre which is a completely separate institution). As people are also no doubt aware the breaking into of computers and releasing private information is illegal, and regardless of how they were obtained, posting private correspondence without permission is unethical. We therefore aren’t going to post any of the emails here. We were made aware of the existence of this archive last Tuesday morning when the hackers attempted to upload it to RealClimate, and we notified CRU of their possible security breach later that day.

Nonetheless, these emails (a presumably careful selection of (possibly edited?) correspondence dating back to 1996 and as recently as Nov 12) are being widely circulated, and therefore require some comment. Some of them involve people here (and the archive includes the first RealClimate email we ever sent out to colleagues) and include discussions we’ve had with the CRU folk on topics related to the surface temperature record and some paleo-related issues, mainly to ensure that posting were accurate.

Since emails are normally intended to be private, people writing them are, shall we say, somewhat freer in expressing themselves than they would in a public statement. For instance, we are sure it comes as no shock to know that many scientists do not hold Steve McIntyre in high regard. Nor that a large group of them thought that the Soon and Baliunas (2003), Douglass et al (2008) or McClean et al (2009) papers were not very good (to say the least) and should not have been published. These sentiments have been made abundantly clear in the literature (though possibly less bluntly).

More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to ‘get rid of the MWP’, no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no ‘marching orders’ from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though.

Instead, there is a peek into how scientists actually interact and the conflicts show that the community is a far cry from the monolith that is sometimes imagined. People working constructively to improve joint publications; scientists who are friendly and agree on many of the big picture issues, disagreeing at times about details and engaging in ‘robust’ discussions; Scientists expressing frustration at the misrepresentation of their work in politicized arenas and complaining when media reports get it wrong; Scientists resenting the time they have to take out of their research to deal with over-hyped nonsense. None of this should be shocking.

It’s obvious that the noise-generating components of the blogosphere will generate a lot of noise about this. but it’s important to remember that science doesn’t work because people are polite at all times. Gravity isn’t a useful theory because Newton was a nice person. QED isn’t powerful because Feynman was respectful of other people around him. Science works because different groups go about trying to find the best approximations of the truth, and are generally very competitive about that. That the same scientists can still all agree on the wording of an IPCC chapter for instance is thus even more remarkable.

No doubt, instances of cherry-picked and poorly-worded “gotcha” phrases will be pulled out of context. One example is worth mentioning quickly. Phil Jones in discussing the presentation of temperature reconstructions stated that “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.” The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction, and the ‘trick’ is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term “trick” to refer to a “a good way to deal with a problem”, rather than something that is “secret”, and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the ‘decline’, it is well known that Keith Briffa’s maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem”–see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while ‘hiding’ is probably a poor choice of words (since it is ‘hidden’ in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.

The timing of this particular episode is probably not coincidental. But if cherry-picked out-of-context phrases from stolen personal emails is the only response to the weight of the scientific evidence for the human influence on climate change, then there probably isn’t much to it.

There are of course lessons to be learned. Clearly no-one would have gone to this trouble if the academic object of study was the mating habits of European butterflies. That community’s internal discussions are probably safe from the public eye. But it is important to remember that emails do seem to exist forever, and that there is always a chance that they will be inadvertently released. Most people do not act as if this is true, but they probably should.

It is tempting to point fingers and declare that people should not have been so open with their thoughts, but who amongst us would really be happy to have all of their email made public?

Let he who is without PIN cast the the first stone.

Update: The official UEA statement is as follows:

“We are aware that information from a server used for research information

in one area of the university has been made available on public websites,”

the spokesman stated.

“Because of the volume of this information we cannot currently confirm

that all of this material is genuine.

“This information has been obtained and published without our permission

and we took immediate action to remove the server in question from

operation.

“We are undertaking a thorough internal investigation and we have involved

the police in this enquiry.”
linkETA: there is some good additional discussion in the comments.

 
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I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.

With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:

Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
Typical Wikipedia slime job....This story is just getting out, but there are other sources....One

Two

Three

Four
At least one of those suggests there may actually be smoke here. Thanks.But for the love of god, here's another byline on another piece you linked above...

By James Delingpole. James Delingpole is a writer, journalist and broadcaster who is right about everything.
...think a little before you blindly accept what you're told. A guy who wrote this intro to the piece...about himself...is a guy you're taking as a valid source of unbiased information. Such a guy may be absolutely marvelous for entertainment purposes, but as a voice of reason in an intellectual debate?I'm not going to suggest you're on the wrong side of this debate, nor that you're on the wrong side of the political spectrum, even though I suspect we're not very close on either agenda. But you must realize you're doing yourself no favors by poisoning your mind this way. Over time, our minds become our source material. Why not choose it carefully?

 
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I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
You need to read a bit further. In fact, forget the article and just read the data that got hacked.
I'm in the process of doing this now, but there are a lot of files. Is there a particular piece I should focus in on?
 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
You need to read a bit further. In fact, forget the article and just read the data that got hacked.
I'm in the process of doing this now, but there are a lot of files. Is there a particular piece I should focus in on?
Link 4 that i provided above provides more examples of what some of the emails contain. Forgetting all else, as a minimum this shows Global Warmers are not honest scientists in that they are more interested in advancing an agenda and manipulating the data to improve their case and stonewalling critics to keep information from them. Science that can not withstand skepticism is not science. From what I can tell not all the email/data hacked has been released. It will be interesting to see what else falls out of this.
 
I'm curious about climate change, because I think it's genuinely important to determine whether it's a real thing, whether it poses a real threat, and whether we can do anything about it if it does. I don't pretend to know the answer to any of this, so I'm always looking for good, unbiased info.

With this, I got as far as the byline.

Wikipedia:

Timothy Francis Ball, Ph.D., is a retired university professor and global warming skeptic. He heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project and is the former head of Friends of Science, a non-profit organization, closely linked to the oil industry...
Typical Wikipedia slime job....This story is just getting out, but there are other sources....One

Two

Three

Four
At least one of those suggests there may actually be smoke here. Thanks.But for the love of god, here's another byline on another piece you linked above...

By James Delingpole. James Delingpole is a writer, journalist and broadcaster who is right about everything.
...think a little before you blindly accept what you're told. A guy who wrote this intro to the piece...about himself...is a guy you're taking as a valid source of unbiased information. Such a guy may be absolutely marvelous for entertainment purposes, but as a voice of reason in an intellectual debate?I'm not going to suggest you're on the wrong side of this debate, nor that you're on the wrong side of the political spectrum, even though I suspect we're not very close on either agenda. But you must realize you're doing yourself no favors by poisoning your mind this way. Over time, our minds become our source material. Why not choose it carefully?
Fair enough, but this at least partially confirms what I have suspected for the last 15 years. As people dig through this and more information is released, we will understand more. It is more interesting to see the actual emails, then the spin on either side.
 
Interesting that the liberals, who usually worship whistleblowers exposing corporate corruption, suddenly have gone all "law and order" on this one. How dare someone hack into a science website?

 
The source in the OP is horrendous, and can be dismissed out of hand.

That said ... I don't expect to be hearing a peep about AGW in 20 years. Could be wrong, but it's not smelling right. We should know more with more conclusiveness, and there shouldn't be this politicization of the issue. And it's impossible to get unbiased facts, so really the gut is all I can go by.

 
Interesting that the liberals, who usually worship whistleblowers exposing corporate corruption, suddenly have gone all "law and order" on this one. How dare someone hack into a science website?
:lmao: These fat cat scientists had it coming.
 
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Oh, by the way, :honda: since there was already a two-page thread on this topic with the same title on page one.
The same topic in that it involves global warming, but two completely different subjects. That one concerns the fact that global warming seemed to have peeked in 1998 and we haven't seen any global warming as the models all said would occur.This one is about hacked emails suggesting the scientists are manipulating the data and keeping information from skeptics.

 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.

Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...

I hate this subject.
Then why waste valuable resources on a problem that does not exist? If CO2 is not the biggest problem facing the planet, and taxes on energy is not going to help, why are we trying to cripple our entire economy with these stupid plans? If we are worried about diminishing resources, then attack that problem, don't create some fictional crisis.
It shouldn't matter if CO2 emission is the biggest problem. If there is evidence suggesting a problem at all, conclusive or not, it should be scary enough to create a dialog. It's not my fault the discussion has morphed into red vs. blue propoganda - just like every f'ing thing these days. I'd even say that the lack of true communication is the bigger, if not the biggest, problem we face right now. I think most sane people can agree that when it comes to this kind of thing, the people throwing out statistics and the people whose job it is to respond to the "facts" all have agendas that don't necessarily coincide with yours or mine.Your "stupid plans" are another man's reasonable concessions in the interest of curtailing the possible net effect of all the ill we visit upon our spinning rock.

Your "fiction" is another's bothersome potentiality. You should deal with that instead of pointing fingers at folks who happen to interpret reality differently. We're dealing with unknowns right now. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Wouldn't you?

 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
Nobody disputes that resources need to be used better. The question is how much of a crisis is it? Does it justify extreme curbs on our economy, or enormous deficit spending to fund solar projects, or can we continue to allow our technology to evolve and progress over time. That's the nature of the debate, and you should never forget the mindset of political opportunists like Rahm Emmanual when listening to it: "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."
 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
Great, then frame it this way and tell people the real damage instead of trying to use scare tactics. Do you think using faked experiments as evidence to suggest marijuana causes brain damage is an effective way to curb its use? That's what this seems the equivalent of. People don't respond to propoganda, except for the most weak minded, and in fact can become abrasive when you try to feed it to them.
Parrothead will love this one: How about faking a global threat from a dictatorial government, falsify connections between that government and a terrorist network that attacked the US, further falsify attempts of said country to acquire further WMDs or their components, discredit/fire/name confident sources who disagree and put them in danger or out of work, spend billions of dollars and worse, thousands of American lives (on top of other countries' soldiers lives who were also duped by GW into a flase war).False info+propaganda+scare tactics=GW + IraqOh but wait, I forgot: It can't be the same thing because GW said so, and Iraq is no longer pinnable to GW, he only started it and screwed it up from the beginning. It's all Obama's fault and responsibility now...
 
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.

Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...

I hate this subject.
Then why waste valuable resources on a problem that does not exist? If CO2 is not the biggest problem facing the planet, and taxes on energy is not going to help, why are we trying to cripple our entire economy with these stupid plans? If we are worried about diminishing resources, then attack that problem, don't create some fictional crisis.
It shouldn't matter if CO2 emission is the biggest problem. If there is evidence suggesting a problem at all, conclusive or not, it should be scary enough to create a dialog. It's not my fault the discussion has morphed into red vs. blue propoganda - just like every f'ing thing these days. I'd even say that the lack of true communication is the bigger, if not the biggest, problem we face right now. I think most sane people can agree that when it comes to this kind of thing, the people throwing out statistics and the people whose job it is to respond to the "facts" all have agendas that don't necessarily coincide with yours or mine.Your "stupid plans" are another man's reasonable concessions in the interest of curtailing the possible net effect of all the ill we visit upon our spinning rock.

Your "fiction" is another's bothersome potentiality. You should deal with that instead of pointing fingers at folks who happen to interpret reality differently. We're dealing with unknowns right now. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Wouldn't you?
We are spending millions of dollars to study the problem. Perhaps my rhetoric is a bit over the top, but for 15 years the other side was not covered one bit in the media. Anyone who suggested we were not all going to die in 20 years was the equivalent to a holocaust denier. The models have intentionally been grossly over-estimated the problems and they need to be called to the mat for it. Especially since they are using phony numbers to justify the average family to spend over $1000 per year more on energy. That is theft in my opinion.
 
Regardless of what you think the emails mean with regard to the science there does seem to be an effort to deny non-supporters channels for peer review, even credible ones. Once scientists start to systematically muzzle criticism they stop being scientists. Clearly there is politics going on within the scientific community as well as outside it with regard to Global Warming.

 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.

 
“Global Warming” sir? I’m sorry but that’s just a bunch of scientist talk. The same people who’d have you believe that my great grandfather was a monkey. If he was a monkey, then why was he killed by a monkey?
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
If anything, being a climate change skeptic is a lot more lucrative than being an objective climate scientist.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
As they say in detective work, follow the money. People who don't want to toe the line on global warming don't get invited to the first class deluxe hotels in Tokyo and Geneva.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
I have no idea where they should get their funding. Pseudo-scientists who want to attack Darwin and promote Intelligent Design get their funding from creationist groups. I supose anytime you want to discredit what is generally considered to be science, you can find people willing to pay you to do it.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
I have no idea where they should get their funding. Pseudo-scientists who want to attack Darwin and promote Intelligent Design get their funding from creationist groups. I supose anytime you want to discredit what is generally considered to be science, you can find people willing to pay you to do it.
Since when does someone who disagrees with popular opinion become not a scientist? Employing that methodology defeats the whole purpose of science. Some of our greatest scientists were naysayers.
 
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As they say in detective work, follow the money. People who don't want to toe the line on global warming don't get invited to the first class deluxe hotels in Tokyo and Geneva.
Neither do 9/11 "Truthers", or "Birthers", or revisionist historians who believe the Holocaust never happened. But, in large part because of the internet, these guys all write boatloads of stuff that a lot of people avidly read because they want to believe it. The difference with the climate change skeptics is that they have some mighty powerful donors; otherwise, they'd be in the same boat as the rest of these conspiratorial people I've mentioned here. I already tend to classify them there.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
If anything, being a climate change skeptic is a lot more lucrative than being an objective climate scientist.
Do you have the numbers with regard to how much the petroleum industry gives to scientific research compared to the government?
 
Since when does someone who disagrees with popular opinion become not a scientist? Employing that methodology defeats the whole purpose of science. Some of our greatest scientists were naysayers.
This has historically been true when the popular opinion was unscientific.
 
As they say in detective work, follow the money. People who don't want to toe the line on global warming don't get invited to the first class deluxe hotels in Tokyo and Geneva.
Neither do 9/11 "Truthers", or "Birthers", or revisionist historians who believe the Holocaust never happened. But, in large part because of the internet, these guys all write boatloads of stuff that a lot of people avidly read because they want to believe it. The difference with the climate change skeptics is that they have some mighty powerful donors; otherwise, they'd be in the same boat as the rest of these conspiratorial people I've mentioned here. I already tend to classify them there.
Now believing Global Warming or that it's primarily man-made is akin to denying the Holocaust. That's pretty bad hyperbole even for the King of Hyperbole.
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
If anything, being a climate change skeptic is a lot more lucrative than being an objective climate scientist.
Do you have the numbers with regard to how much the petroleum industry gives to scientific research compared to the government?
No, but someone who is motivated can apply for grant money just like other scientists, do research and then take outside money in exchange for misrepresenting or burying his own data.
 
Since when does someone who disagrees with popular opinion become not a scientist? Employing that methodology defeats the whole purpose of science. Some of our greatest scientists were naysayers.
This has historically been true when the popular opinion was unscientific.
Disagreeing with popular scientific opinion has always been a cornerstone of science. It's most certainly not unscientific.
 
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jon_mx said:
SimonMoon said:
jon_mx said:
SimonMoon said:
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.

Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...

I hate this subject.
Then why waste valuable resources on a problem that does not exist? If CO2 is not the biggest problem facing the planet, and taxes on energy is not going to help, why are we trying to cripple our entire economy with these stupid plans? If we are worried about diminishing resources, then attack that problem, don't create some fictional crisis.
It shouldn't matter if CO2 emission is the biggest problem. If there is evidence suggesting a problem at all, conclusive or not, it should be scary enough to create a dialog. It's not my fault the discussion has morphed into red vs. blue propoganda - just like every f'ing thing these days. I'd even say that the lack of true communication is the bigger, if not the biggest, problem we face right now. I think most sane people can agree that when it comes to this kind of thing, the people throwing out statistics and the people whose job it is to respond to the "facts" all have agendas that don't necessarily coincide with yours or mine.Your "stupid plans" are another man's reasonable concessions in the interest of curtailing the possible net effect of all the ill we visit upon our spinning rock.

Your "fiction" is another's bothersome potentiality. You should deal with that instead of pointing fingers at folks who happen to interpret reality differently. We're dealing with unknowns right now. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Wouldn't you?
We are spending millions of dollars to study the problem. Perhaps my rhetoric is a bit over the top, but for 15 years the other side was not covered one bit in the media. Anyone who suggested we were not all going to die in 20 years was the equivalent to a holocaust denier. The models have intentionally been grossly over-estimated the problems and they need to be called to the mat for it. Especially since they are using phony numbers to justify the average family to spend over $1000 per year more on energy. That is theft in my opinion.
Sorry, but your rhetoric is a bit over the top.
 
SimonMoon said:
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
:homer: I will never understand why Conservatives are so afraid to admit this. Is there some secret agreement with Big Oil that you all get money from gasoline sales if you try to invalidate the need for alternate energy sources? I will never get this.
Why are you so afraid to admit it is not true? It is normal for the earth is have climate changes! The earth is millions of years old and our data goes back about 100 years. You cannot determine anything with that small of a sample size. Look at what they told us on the first earth day in 1970. This is why I am skeptical.
“The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age.”• Kenneth Watt, Ecologist“By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate…that there won’t be any more crude oil. You’ll drive up to the pump and say, `Fill ‘er up, buddy,’ and he’ll say, `I am very sorry, there isn’t any.’”• Kenneth Watt, Ecologist“Dr. S. Dillon Ripley, secretary of the Smithsonian Institute, believes that in 25 years, somewhere between 75 and 80 percent of all the species of living animals will be extinct.”• Sen. Gaylord Nelson “Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable: by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions….By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine.”• Peter Gunter, professor, North Texas State University “Air pollution…is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone.”• Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University biologist “Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support…the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution…by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half….” • Life Magazine, January 1970
 
From the NY Times article:

But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ###, but the theory of gravity still works.”

I don't know, but my intuition tells me this is the truth.

What we have here, seems to me, is a bunch of people who want to believe that climate change exists. And then we also have a bunch of people who don't want to believe that climate change exists. But the people on the "want" side tend to be accredited, strongly respected scientists, while the ones on the "don't want" are either conservatives or people associated with the oil industry. This is has always made me assume that the "want" side probably had more merit to their arguments, which are usually too complicated for me to understand, frankly. This recent revelation does nothing to change my opinion.
What do you propose that scientists who disagree do to get funding? The government doesn't give grants out to people debunking Global Warming.
:goodposting:
 
SimonMoon said:
It seems crazy to me that people can't agree on the fact that our planet is a finite resource being abused across the board, and that we need to take steps to slow the process of raping and ruining it.Forgetting the politics for a moment, wouldn't it behoove everyone - particularly our kids and theirs - to manage our home with an eye toward minimizing the damage? It isn't that hard to do if we all just sort of shift our awareness a bit instead of constantly arguing about the extent to which this or that form of pollution is doing harm. We should be able to recognize a problem and deal with it, no matter how far off the end-result might be...I hate this subject.
;) I will never understand why Conservatives are so afraid to admit this. Is there some secret agreement with Big Oil that you all get money from gasoline sales if you try to invalidate the need for alternate energy sources? I will never get this.
Why are you so afraid to admit it is not true? It is normal for the earth is have climate changes! The earth is millions of years old and our data goes back about 100 years. You cannot determine anything with that small of a sample size. Look at what they told us on the first earth day in 1970. This is why I am skeptical.
"The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age."• Kenneth Watt, Ecologist"By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate…that there won't be any more crude oil. You'll drive up to the pump and say, `Fill 'er up, buddy,' and he'll say, `I am very sorry, there isn't any.'"• Kenneth Watt, Ecologist"Dr. S. Dillon Ripley, secretary of the Smithsonian Institute, believes that in 25 years, somewhere between 75 and 80 percent of all the species of living animals will be extinct."• Sen. Gaylord Nelson "Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable: by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions….By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine."• Peter Gunter, professor, North Texas State University "Air pollution…is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone."• Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University biologist "Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support…the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution…by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half…." • Life Magazine, January 1970
SmoovySmoov made a good point and it deserves to stand on its own merits. Your Life magazine post is priceless. We don't need to fear monger or a create phony science to fix our problems. We should address the issue forthrightly without gimmicks.
 

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