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The Science is Settled: GW is Conspiracy/Fraud (1 Viewer)

Here's the 13 page report from McIntyre and McKitrick.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/...-background.pdf

Our research shows fundamental flaws in the “hockey stick graph” used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to argue that the 1990s were the warmest decade of the millennium. The original hockey stick study was published by Michael Mann of the University of Virginia and his coauthors Raymond Bradley and Malcolm Hughes. The main error affects a step called principal component analysis (PCA). We showed that the PCA method as used by Mann et al. effectively mines a data set for hockey stick patterns. Even from meaningless random data (red noise), it nearly always produces a hockey stick.
One thing I'm finding a little amusing is that all of Mann's responses are links to the realclimate.org website. Why do places like Scientific American consider that a non biased source of information at this point?
 
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DrJ said:
moleculo said:
A blurb from DrJ's article:

'These emails open up the possibility that big scientific questions we've regarded as settled may need another look.

'They reveal that some of these scientists saw themselves not as neutral investigators but as warriors engaged in battle with the so-called sceptics.

‘They have lost a lot of credibility and as far as their being leading spokespeople on this issue of huge public importance, there is no going back.’
Now one thing of note is that Pielke issued a "small correction" and said one of his statements was taken slightly out of context. http://www.nctimes.com/app/blogs/wp/?p=5813

UPDATE: Roger Pielke Jr., quoted in the story, has a “small correction”:

In The Daily Mail, David Rose has a hard-hitting critique of the CRU email situation. His summary of the debate in the emails over how to handle the Briffa curve is well done. However, he focuses more than I would on the science rather than the science policy, and this shows up in how I am quoted or referred to in several places. Recognizing that it is his story, there is a misquote of my comments that I think needs to be corrected. Here is what I sent David asking for a correction:

Dear David-

I just saw your story in the Daily Mail and a small correction is needed. You quote me as saying:

“These emails open up the possibility that big scientific questions we’ve regarded as settled may need another look.”

What I said was:

“While these emails open up the possibility that some scientific questions we’ve regarded as settled may need another look, time will tell and the implications for science are not the most important aspect of the emails.”

The point was that while I am agnostic about the implications for science, leaving that to others, I am certain that the emails have broader implications for the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science. Based on what I’ve seen, I do not believe that any “big scientific questions” are implicated by the emails.

Many thanks,

Roger
Overall a slight correction and he does acknowledge that the piece is well done in regards to the debate on the curve.
So this "slight correction" means that he basically agrees with what I have posted through out this thread? That the E-Mails are not the smoke that points to a fire?
 
DrJ said:
moleculo said:
A blurb from DrJ's article:

'These emails open up the possibility that big scientific questions we've regarded as settled may need another look.

'They reveal that some of these scientists saw themselves not as neutral investigators but as warriors engaged in battle with the so-called sceptics.

‘They have lost a lot of credibility and as far as their being leading spokespeople on this issue of huge public importance, there is no going back.’
Now one thing of note is that Pielke issued a "small correction" and said one of his statements was taken slightly out of context. http://www.nctimes.com/app/blogs/wp/?p=5813

UPDATE: Roger Pielke Jr., quoted in the story, has a “small correction”:

In The Daily Mail, David Rose has a hard-hitting critique of the CRU email situation. His summary of the debate in the emails over how to handle the Briffa curve is well done. However, he focuses more than I would on the science rather than the science policy, and this shows up in how I am quoted or referred to in several places. Recognizing that it is his story, there is a misquote of my comments that I think needs to be corrected. Here is what I sent David asking for a correction:

Dear David-

I just saw your story in the Daily Mail and a small correction is needed. You quote me as saying:

“These emails open up the possibility that big scientific questions we’ve regarded as settled may need another look.”

What I said was:

“While these emails open up the possibility that some scientific questions we’ve regarded as settled may need another look, time will tell and the implications for science are not the most important aspect of the emails.”

The point was that while I am agnostic about the implications for science, leaving that to others, I am certain that the emails have broader implications for the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science. Based on what I’ve seen, I do not believe that any “big scientific questions” are implicated by the emails.

Many thanks,

Roger
Overall a slight correction and he does acknowledge that the piece is well done in regards to the debate on the curve.
So this "slight correction" means that he basically agrees with what I have posted through out this thread? That the E-Mails are not the smoke that points to a fire?
Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
 
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Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
The black boxes you are alluding too would have no direct ramifications on the question of global warming per se, only how it is determined as such.
 
Idiot Boxer said:
moleculo said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
It's odd (though not surprising) that the contents of the e-mails aren't causing people to pause and reflect. Instead it's a full court press to defend them.
it's not really that different than how fanatics defend their religion.
Just imagine if Paul had deleted some of his emails to the Corinthians.
:goodposting:Yet more proof for the blind squirrel theory.
 
Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
The black boxes you are alluding too would have no direct ramifications on the question of global warming per se, only how it is determined as such.
And also whether it's actually historically significant. There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, and that they deliberately attempted to hide that via questionable methods that gave them the results they were looking for.McIntyre himself acknowledges that there has been warming since the mid 19th century based on the data. But he's basically saying that it's not necessarilly significant historically and that they are using questionable methods to make the models say what they want them to, and that they are invalid.From that 13 page paper even:
Does your work disprove global warming?We have not made such a claim. There is considerable evidence that in many locations the late 20th century was generally warmer than the mid-19th century. However, there is also considerable evidence that in parts of the Northern Hemisphere, the mid-19th century was exceptionally cold. We think that a more interesting issue is whether the late 20th century was warmer than periods of similar length in the 11th century. We ourselves do not opine on this matter, other than to say that the MBH results relied upon so heavily by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in its 2001 report are invalid.
 
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Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
Nope. I've stated repeatedly that if the scientific questions are being answered wrong that it will be discovered by doing science, not by opinion of who can find the best "aha moment" in a popular debate. That doesn't say anything about what is settled and what isn't, and what merits additional research and what doesn't. I'll leave those question to those qualified to answer them - real scientists.
 
Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
Nope. I've stated repeatedly that if the scientific questions are being answered wrong that it will be discovered by doing science, not by opinion of who can find the best "aha moment" in a popular debate. That doesn't say anything about what is settled and what isn't, and what merits additional research and what doesn't. I'll leave those question to those qualified to answer them - real scientists.
:bye:
 
... There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, ...
Then have someone use real data to present a real scientific hypothesis that can be tested and verified. You know, use science to test science.
 
I see everyone is still missing the point here. Watch what the other hand is doing, this is not about global warming. It is about

1) The New World Order

2) Redistribution of the wealth

 
... There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, ...
Then have someone use real data to present a real scientific hypothesis that can be tested and verified. You know, use science to test science.
or, actually test and verify the scientific hypotheses that have already been presented. Same difference, no?
 
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Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
The black boxes you are alluding too would have no direct ramifications on the question of global warming per se, only how it is determined as such.
And also whether it's actually historically significant. There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, and that they deliberately attempted to hide that via questionable methods that gave them the results they were looking for.
This is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of the debate. No one is arguing the earth has not been warmer in the past, in fact, we all know for certain that it was much warmer way back in the day. The argument is whether or not the current rise in temp is due to human influence. On that there appears to be more than enough evidence to suggest that things are no longer functioning, "naturally," and that ocean temps in particular appear to be changing at rates much different to how they changed in the past.
 
... There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, ...
Then have someone use real data to present a real scientific hypothesis that can be tested and verified. You know, use science to test science.
or, actually test and verify the scientific hypotheses that have already been presented. Same difference, no?
They are constantly being tested. No one is stopping anyone from repeating the tests and verifying the results. The anti-AGW crowd that has been highlighted in this thread don't want to actually test any hypothesis but challenge every detail of every test that others have performed in a belief that something must be wrong for that test to reach a conclusion different from their preconceived beliefs. This challenge of every detail is not to further science but to thwart it, to keep the science on the constant defensive.
 
... There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, ...
Then have someone use real data to present a real scientific hypothesis that can be tested and verified. You know, use science to test science.
or, actually test and verify the scientific hypotheses that have already been presented. Same difference, no?
They are constantly being tested. No one is stopping anyone from repeating the tests and verifying the results. The anti-AGW crowd that has been highlighted in this thread don't want to actually test any hypothesis but challenge every detail of every test that others have performed in a belief that something must be wrong for that test to reach a conclusion different from their preconceived beliefs. This challenge of every detail is not to further science but to thwart it, to keep the science on the constant defensive.
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail of every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?

 
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Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
The black boxes you are alluding too would have no direct ramifications on the question of global warming per se, only how it is determined as such.
And also whether it's actually historically significant. There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, and that they deliberately attempted to hide that via questionable methods that gave them the results they were looking for.
This is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of the debate. No one is arguing the earth has not been warmer in the past, in fact, we all know for certain that it was much warmer way back in the day. The argument is whether or not the current rise in temp is due to human influence. On that there appears to be more than enough evidence to suggest that things are no longer functioning, "naturally," and that ocean temps in particular appear to be changing at rates much different to how they changed in the past.
That's patently false. Mann, and as a result the IPCC report, are asserting that the temperatures in the late 20th century are unequivocably the hottest in the last 1000 and perhaps 2000 years.If it was hotter in 1000-1300, when man wasn't able to have this same impact on the environment, it's very damaging to the concept that this warming is unprecedented and without question man induced.
 
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the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
 
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
Where do you consider Stephen McIntyre to fit within the science/non-science spectrum?
 
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
Then I would imagine you would probably find this to be rather troubling:
Pielke agreed. ‘After Climategate, the surface temperature record is being called into question.’ To experts such as McIntyre and Pielke, perhaps the most baffling thing has been the near-unanimity over global warming in the world’s mainstream media - a unanimity much greater than that found among scientists.

In part, this is the result of strongarm tactics.

For example, last year the BBC environment reporter Roger Harrabin made substantial changes to an article on the corporation website that asked why global warming seemed to have stalled since 1998 - caving in to direct pressure from a climate change activist, Jo Abbess.

‘Personally, I think it is highly irresponsible to play into the hands of the sceptics who continually promote the idea that “global warming finished in 1998” when that is so patently not true,’ she told him in an email.

After a brief exchange, he complied and sent a final note: ‘Have a look in ten minutes and tell me you are happier. We have changed headline and more.’

Afterwards, Abbess boasted on her website: ‘Climate Changers, Remember to challenge any piece of media that seems like it’s been subject to spin or scepticism. Here’s my go for today. The BBC actually changed an article I requested a correction for.’

Last week, Michael Schlesinger, Professor of Atmospheric Studies at the University of Illinois, sent a still cruder threat to Andrew Revkin of the New York Times, accusing him of ‘gutter reportage’, and warning: ‘The vibe that I am getting from here, there and everywhere is that your reportage is very worrisome to most climate scientists ... I sense that you are about to experience the “Big Cutoff” from those of us who believe we can no longer trust you, me included.’

But in the wake of Warmergate, such threats - and the readiness to bow to them - may become rarer.

‘A year ago, if a reporter called me, all I got was questions about why I’m trying to deny climate change and am threatening the future of the planet,’ said Professor Ross McKitrick of Guelph University near Toronto, a long-time collaborator with McIntyre.

‘Now, I’m getting questions about how they did the hockey stick and the problems with the data.

‘Maybe the emails have started to open people’s eyes.’
 
Here's a McKitrick article from 10/1/09:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...-uncovered.aspx

Ross McKitrick: Defects in key climate data are uncovered

Posted: October 01, 2009, 9:03 PM by NP Editor

climate change, hockey stick, Ross McKitrick

Only by playing with data can scientists come up with the infamous ‘hockey stick’ graph of global warming

By Ross McKitrick

Beginning in 2003, I worked with Stephen McIntyre to replicate a famous result in paleoclimatology known as the Hockey Stick graph. Developed by a U.S. climatologist named Michael Mann, it was a statistical compilation of tree ring data supposedly proving that air temperatures had been stable for 900 years, then soared off the charts in the 20th century. Prior to the publication of the Hockey Stick, scientists had held that the medieval-era was warmer than the present, making the scale of 20th century global warming seem relatively unimportant. The dramatic revision to this view occasioned by the Hockey Stick’s publication made it the poster child of the global warming movement. It was featured prominently in a 2001 report of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), as well as government websites and countless review reports.

Steve and I showed that the mathematics behind the Mann Hockey Stick were badly flawed, such that its shape was determined by suspect bristlecone tree ring data. Controversies quickly piled up: Two expert panels involving the U.S. National Academy of Sciences were asked to investigate, the U.S. Congress held a hearing, and the media followed the story around the world.

The expert reports upheld all of our criticisms of the Mann Hockey Stick, both of the mathematics and of its reliance on flawed bristlecone pine data. One of the panels, however, argued that while the Mann Hockey Stick itself was flawed, a series of other studies published since 1998 had similar shapes, thus providing support for the view that the late 20th century is unusually warm. The IPCC also made this argument in its 2007 report. But the second expert panel, led by statistician Edward Wegman, pointed out that the other studies are not independent. They are written by the same small circle of authors, only the names are in different orders, and they reuse the same few data climate proxy series over and over.

Most of the proxy data does not show anything unusual about the 20th century. But two data series have reappeared over and over that do have a hockey stick shape. One was the flawed bristlecone data that the National Academy of Sciences panel said should not be used, so the studies using it can be set aside. The second was a tree ring curve from the Yamal Peninsula in Siberia, compiled by UK scientist Keith Briffa.

Briffa had published a paper in 1995 claiming that the medieval period actually contained the coldest year of the millennium. But this claim depended on just three tree ring records (called cores) from the Polar Urals. Later, a colleague of his named F. H. Schweingruber produced a much larger sample from the Polar Urals, but it told a very different story: The medieval era was actually quite warm and the late 20th century was unexceptional. Briffa and Schweingruber never published those data, instead they dropped the Polar Urals altogether from their climate reconstruction papers.

In its place they used a new series that Briffa had calculated from tree ring data from the nearby Yamal Peninsula that had a pronounced Hockey Stick shape: relatively flat for 900 years then sharply rising in the 20th century. This Yamal series was a composite of an undisclosed number of individual tree cores. In order to check the steps involved in producing the composite, it would be necessary to have the individual tree ring measurements themselves. But Briffa didn’t release his raw data.

Over the next nine years, at least one paper per year appeared in prominent journals using Briffa’s Yamal composite to support a hockey stick-like result. The IPCC relied on these studies to defend the Hockey Stick view, and since it had appointed Briffa himself to be the IPCC Lead Author for this topic, there was no chance it would question the Yamal data.

Despite the fact that these papers appeared in top journals like Nature and Science, none of the journal reviewers or editors ever required Briffa to release his Yamal data. Steve McIntyre’s repeated requests for them to uphold their own data disclosure rules were ignored.

Then in 2008 Briffa, Schweingruber and some colleagues published a paper using the Yamal series (again) in a journal called the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, which has very strict data-sharing rules. Steve sent in his customary request for the data, and this time an editor stepped up to the plate, ordering the authors to release their data. A short while ago the data appeared on the Internet. Steve could finally begin to unpack the Yamal composite.

It turns out that many of the samples were taken from dead (partially fossilized) trees and they have no particular trend. The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.

But an even more disquieting discovery soon came to light. Steve searched a paleoclimate data archive to see if there were other tree ring cores from at or near the Yamal site that could have been used to increase the sample size. He quickly found a large set of 34 up-to-date core samples, taken from living trees in Yamal by none other than Schweingruber himself! Had these been added to Briffa’s small group the 20th century would simply be flat. It would appear completely unexceptional compared to the rest of the millennium.

Combining data from different samples would not have been an unusual step. Briffa added data from another Schweingruber site to a different composite, from the Taimyr Peninsula. The additional data were gathered more than 400 km away from the primary site. And in that case the primary site had three or four times as many cores to begin with as the Yamal site. Why did he not fill out the Yamal data with the readily-available data from his own coauthor? Why did Briffa seek out additional data for the already well-represented Taimyr site and not for the inadequate Yamal site?

Thus the key ingredient in most of the studies that have been invoked to support the Hockey Stick, namely the Briffa Yamal series, depends on the influence of a woefully thin subsample of trees and the exclusion of readily-available data for the same area. Whatever is going on here, it is not science.

I have been probing the arguments for global warming for well over a decade. In collaboration with a lot of excellent coauthors I have consistently found that when the layers get peeled back, what lies at the core is either flawed, misleading or simply non-existent. The surface temperature data is a contaminated mess with a significant warm bias, and as I have detailed elsewhere the IPCC fabricated evidence in its 2007 report to cover up the problem. Climate models are in gross disagreement with observations, and the discrepancy is growing with each passing year. The often-hyped claim that the modern climate has departed from natural variability depended on flawed statistical methods and low-quality data. The IPCC review process, of which I was a member last time, is nothing at all like what the public has been told: Conflicts of interest are endemic, critical evidence is systematically ignored and there are no effective checks and balances against bias or distortion.

I get exasperated with fellow academics, and others who ought to know better, who pile on to the supposed global warming consensus without bothering to investigate any of the glaring scientific discrepancies and procedural flaws. Over the coming few years, as the costs of global warming policies mount and the evidence of a crisis continues to collapse, perhaps it will become socially permissible for people to start thinking for themselves again. In the meantime I am grateful for those few independent thinkers, like Steve McIntyre, who continue to ask the right questions and insist on scientific standards of openness and transparency.
 
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Here's a McKitrick article from 10/1/09:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...-uncovered.aspx

Ross McKitrick: Defects in key climate data are uncovered

Posted: October 01, 2009, 9:03 PM by NP Editor

climate change, hockey stick, Ross McKitrick

Only by playing with data can scientists come up with the infamous 'hockey stick' graph of global warming

By Ross McKitrick

Beginning in 2003, I worked with Stephen McIntyre to replicate a famous result in paleoclimatology known as the Hockey Stick graph. Developed by a U.S. climatologist named Michael Mann, it was a statistical compilation of tree ring data supposedly proving that air temperatures had been stable for 900 years, then soared off the charts in the 20th century. Prior to the publication of the Hockey Stick, scientists had held that the medieval-era was warmer than the present, making the scale of 20th century global warming seem relatively unimportant. The dramatic revision to this view occasioned by the Hockey Stick's publication made it the poster child of the global warming movement. It was featured prominently in a 2001 report of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), as well as government websites and countless review reports.

Steve and I showed that the mathematics behind the Mann Hockey Stick were badly flawed, such that its shape was determined by suspect bristlecone tree ring data. Controversies quickly piled up: Two expert panels involving the U.S. National Academy of Sciences were asked to investigate, the U.S. Congress held a hearing, and the media followed the story around the world.

The expert reports upheld all of our criticisms of the Mann Hockey Stick, both of the mathematics and of its reliance on flawed bristlecone pine data. One of the panels, however, argued that while the Mann Hockey Stick itself was flawed, a series of other studies published since 1998 had similar shapes, thus providing support for the view that the late 20th century is unusually warm. The IPCC also made this argument in its 2007 report. But the second expert panel, led by statistician Edward Wegman, pointed out that the other studies are not independent. They are written by the same small circle of authors, only the names are in different orders, and they reuse the same few data climate proxy series over and over.

Most of the proxy data does not show anything unusual about the 20th century. But two data series have reappeared over and over that do have a hockey stick shape. One was the flawed bristlecone data that the National Academy of Sciences panel said should not be used, so the studies using it can be set aside. The second was a tree ring curve from the Yamal Peninsula in Siberia, compiled by UK scientist Keith Briffa.

Briffa had published a paper in 1995 claiming that the medieval period actually contained the coldest year of the millennium. But this claim depended on just three tree ring records (called cores) from the Polar Urals. Later, a colleague of his named F. H. Schweingruber produced a much larger sample from the Polar Urals, but it told a very different story: The medieval era was actually quite warm and the late 20th century was unexceptional. Briffa and Schweingruber never published those data, instead they dropped the Polar Urals altogether from their climate reconstruction papers.

In its place they used a new series that Briffa had calculated from tree ring data from the nearby Yamal Peninsula that had a pronounced Hockey Stick shape: relatively flat for 900 years then sharply rising in the 20th century. This Yamal series was a composite of an undisclosed number of individual tree cores. In order to check the steps involved in producing the composite, it would be necessary to have the individual tree ring measurements themselves. But Briffa didn't release his raw data.

Over the next nine years, at least one paper per year appeared in prominent journals using Briffa's Yamal composite to support a hockey stick-like result. The IPCC relied on these studies to defend the Hockey Stick view, and since it had appointed Briffa himself to be the IPCC Lead Author for this topic, there was no chance it would question the Yamal data.

Despite the fact that these papers appeared in top journals like Nature and Science, none of the journal reviewers or editors ever required Briffa to release his Yamal data. Steve McIntyre's repeated requests for them to uphold their own data disclosure rules were ignored.

Then in 2008 Briffa, Schweingruber and some colleagues published a paper using the Yamal series (again) in a journal called the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, which has very strict data-sharing rules. Steve sent in his customary request for the data, and this time an editor stepped up to the plate, ordering the authors to release their data. A short while ago the data appeared on the Internet. Steve could finally begin to unpack the Yamal composite.

It turns out that many of the samples were taken from dead (partially fossilized) trees and they have no particular trend. The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn't show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.

But an even more disquieting discovery soon came to light. Steve searched a paleoclimate data archive to see if there were other tree ring cores from at or near the Yamal site that could have been used to increase the sample size. He quickly found a large set of 34 up-to-date core samples, taken from living trees in Yamal by none other than Schweingruber himself! Had these been added to Briffa's small group the 20th century would simply be flat. It would appear completely unexceptional compared to the rest of the millennium.

Combining data from different samples would not have been an unusual step. Briffa added data from another Schweingruber site to a different composite, from the Taimyr Peninsula. The additional data were gathered more than 400 km away from the primary site. And in that case the primary site had three or four times as many cores to begin with as the Yamal site. Why did he not fill out the Yamal data with the readily-available data from his own coauthor? Why did Briffa seek out additional data for the already well-represented Taimyr site and not for the inadequate Yamal site?

Thus the key ingredient in most of the studies that have been invoked to support the Hockey Stick, namely the Briffa Yamal series, depends on the influence of a woefully thin subsample of trees and the exclusion of readily-available data for the same area. Whatever is going on here, it is not science.

I have been probing the arguments for global warming for well over a decade. In collaboration with a lot of excellent coauthors I have consistently found that when the layers get peeled back, what lies at the core is either flawed, misleading or simply non-existent. The surface temperature data is a contaminated mess with a significant warm bias, and as I have detailed elsewhere the IPCC fabricated evidence in its 2007 report to cover up the problem. Climate models are in gross disagreement with observations, and the discrepancy is growing with each passing year. The often-hyped claim that the modern climate has departed from natural variability depended on flawed statistical methods and low-quality data. The IPCC review process, of which I was a member last time, is nothing at all like what the public has been told: Conflicts of interest are endemic, critical evidence is systematically ignored and there are no effective checks and balances against bias or distortion.

I get exasperated with fellow academics, and others who ought to know better, who pile on to the supposed global warming consensus without bothering to investigate any of the glaring scientific discrepancies and procedural flaws. Over the coming few years, as the costs of global warming policies mount and the evidence of a crisis continues to collapse, perhaps it will become socially permissible for people to start thinking for themselves again. In the meantime I am grateful for those few independent thinkers, like Steve McIntyre, who continue to ask the right questions and insist on scientific standards of openness and transparency.
What a Judas.
 
Not really, because you disregard the possibility that some scientific questions we've considered as settled may need another look because of the credibility and legitimacy of certain quarters of climate science.
The black boxes you are alluding too would have no direct ramifications on the question of global warming per se, only how it is determined as such.
And also whether it's actually historically significant. There's reason to believe that somewhere around 1000-1300 are the warmest years, much warmer than what we are currently experiencing, and that they deliberately attempted to hide that via questionable methods that gave them the results they were looking for.
This is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of the debate. No one is arguing the earth has not been warmer in the past, in fact, we all know for certain that it was much warmer way back in the day. The argument is whether or not the current rise in temp is due to human influence. On that there appears to be more than enough evidence to suggest that things are no longer functioning, "naturally," and that ocean temps in particular appear to be changing at rates much different to how they changed in the past.
That's patently false. Mann, and as a result the IPCC report, are asserting that the temperatures in the late 20th century are unequivocably the hottest in the last 1000 and perhaps 2000 years.If it was hotter in 1000-1300, when man wasn't able to have this same impact on the environment, it's very damaging to the concept that this warming is unprecedented and without question man induced.
If they say that they do not represent the majority of climatologists.
 
The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
 
The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
You don't think it's damaging that they used 30 living trees per year for the 18th and 19th centuries (which were flat), but used only 15 trees total for the 20th century? Or that they actually had other data available to them that could have been applied to those periods, but they chose not to, and when the data is applied it shows nothing out of the ordinary? Seriously?
 
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The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
You don't think it's damaging that they used 30 living trees per year for the 18th and 19th centuries (which were flat), but used only 15 trees total for the 20th century? Or that they actually had other data available to them that could have been applied to those periods, but they chose not to, and when the data is applied it shows nothing out of the ordinary? Seriously?
It says nothing about whether or not human influence in the 20th century has caused a shift in the natural cycle, which is the argument. So yes, seriously.ETA:
A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) and meteorologists (64 percent). A recent poll suggests that 58 percent of Americans believe that human activity contributes to climate change.
This has been cited many times here already, but never hurts as a reminder.
 
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The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
You don't think it's damaging that they used 30 living trees per year for the 18th and 19th centuries (which were flat), but used only 15 trees total for the 20th century? Or that they actually had other data available to them that could have been applied to those periods, but they chose not to, and when the data is applied it shows nothing out of the ordinary? Seriously?
It says nothing about whether or not human influence in the 20th century has caused a shift in the natural cycle, which is the argument. So yes, seriously.ETA:
A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) and meteorologists (64 percent). A recent poll suggests that 58 percent of Americans believe that human activity contributes to climate change.
This has been cited many times here already, but never hurts as a reminder.
what happens if it's discovered that 3,146 earth scientists directly or indirectly used the faulty tree data to form their opinions? If McKitrick and McIntyre are proven to be correct that the data is frauduluent, do you think 82% would continue to believe that human activity has been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?I would expect that number to drop.
 
The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
You don't think it's damaging that they used 30 living trees per year for the 18th and 19th centuries (which were flat), but used only 15 trees total for the 20th century? Or that they actually had other data available to them that could have been applied to those periods, but they chose not to, and when the data is applied it shows nothing out of the ordinary? Seriously?
It says nothing about whether or not human influence in the 20th century has caused a shift in the natural cycle, which is the argument. So yes, seriously.
Huh? This has absolutely nothing to do with the argument in that part of the article - the scope of that discussion is on their methods used for statistical analysis. The issue is whether it is a statistically significant sample size to draw conclusions from, especially when there were other samples available that could have been used and were ignored for unknown reasons. The portion of their data set used to demonstrate the warming is by far the weakest portion of their data set, and it almost seems by design.
 
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what happens if it's discovered that 3,146 earth scientists directly or indirectly used the faulty tree data to form their opinions? If McKitrick and McIntyre are proven to be correct that the data is frauduluent, do you think 82% would continue to believe that human activity has been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?I would expect that number to drop.
I would be shocked. Very few put all their eggs in one basket, and there is more than ample support for human influence on global climate change, the lose of ocean habitat alone convinces even the densest of researchers. I believe you will see the numbers remain more or less the same.
 
The sharp uptrend in the late 20th century came from cores of 10 living trees alive as of 1990, and five living trees alive as of 1995. Based on scientific standards, this is too small a sample on which to produce a publication-grade proxy composite. The 18th and 19th century portion of the sample, for instance, contains at least 30 trees per year. But that portion doesn’t show a warming spike. The only segment that does is the late 20th century, where the sample size collapses. Once again a dramatic hockey stick shape turns out to depend on the least reliable portion of a dataset.
Taken from J's post.I hope that was not the support you were claiming??
You don't think it's damaging that they used 30 living trees per year for the 18th and 19th centuries (which were flat), but used only 15 trees total for the 20th century? Or that they actually had other data available to them that could have been applied to those periods, but they chose not to, and when the data is applied it shows nothing out of the ordinary? Seriously?
It says nothing about whether or not human influence in the 20th century has caused a shift in the natural cycle, which is the argument. So yes, seriously.
Huh? This has absolutely nothing to do with the argument in that part of the article. The issue is whether it is a statistically significant sample size to draw conclusions from, especially when there were other samples available that could have been used and were ignored for unknown reasons. The portion of their data set used to demonstrate the warming is by far the weakest portion of their data set, and it almost seems by design.
Exactly. You are missing a much larger picture.
 
Exactly. You are missing a much larger picture.
You certainly aren't doing a very good job of painting that picture. I have no clue what you are talking about - it's as if you're intentionally trying to talk in circles and make no point whatsover.
 
I have nothing to add to this discussion and haven't read the thread but every time I see this thread title I think GW refers to "George W."

 
Exactly. You are missing a much larger picture.
You certainly aren't doing a very good job of painting that picture. I have no clue what you are talking about - it's as if you're intentionally trying to talk in circles and make no point whatsover.
My point is you are pushing one survey as the death blow to an argument that goes well beyond the results of that particular study. The issue is much more complex than you are making it out to be and the bottom line remains that the vast majority of climatologists agree that humans are having a direct influence.The new satellite they sent up this morning might send back some interesting info. Stay tuned.
 
Exactly. You are missing a much larger picture.
You certainly aren't doing a very good job of painting that picture. I have no clue what you are talking about - it's as if you're intentionally trying to talk in circles and make no point whatsover.
My point is you are pushing one survey as the death blow to an argument that goes well beyond the results of that particular study. The issue is much more complex than you are making it out to be and the bottom line remains that the vast majority of climatologists agree that humans are having a direct influence.The new satellite they sent up this morning might send back some interesting info. Stay tuned.
The problem is that where it goes beyond this particular study is to buddies of Mann, like Jones. It's been noted in a number of places that the independent verification of this hasn't been independent at all. Here's what McIntyre said in that 13 page paper:
We point out that these “independent” studies are not “independent” as most people understand the word. Look at the co-authors of the new paper by Rutherford et al [2005]: Mann, Bradley, Hughes, Jones, Briffa and Osborn. These co-authors have had a hand in nearly every multiproxy study, be it Jones et al. [1998], Briffa et al. [2001], Mann and Jones [2003], Jones and Mann [2004], Briffa and Osborn [1999] or Mann, Bradley and Hughes [1998, 1999]. Earlier studies include Bradley and Jones [1993] and Hughes, Bradley and Diaz [1994]
You had that Scientific American article last week whose entire stack of evidence was taken from these same authors. Stuff from realclimate.org, the IPCC reports. Scientists have trusted that these guys aren't lying and cooking the data, I'm not so sure that will be the case so much going forward.Not to mention, this is also influenced by the fact that flawed reports like the 2001 IPCC report are pushed as gospel and celebrated throughout the media, meanwhile skeptics have apparantly been stifled and media outlets showing the slightest hint of objectivity strong armed.
 
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Not to mention, this is also influenced by the fact that flawed reports like the 2001 IPCC report are pushed as gospel and celebrated throughout the media, meanwhile skeptics have apparantly been stifled and media outlets showing the slightest hint of objectivity strong armed.
I don't think this means what you think it means.
 
I love how folks who think that a couple bloggers have cracked the code on an international conspiracy on climate change are just being reasonable, while those who side with the vast majority of the scientific community and historically moderate publications like The Economist are compared to religious zealots.

 
I love how folks who think that a couple bloggers have cracked the code on an international conspiracy on climate change are just being reasonable, while those who side with the vast majority of the scientific community and historically moderate publications like The Economist are compared to religious zealots.
you realize that there are degrees of doubt; it's not all "international conspiracy", right?
 
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
Where do you consider Stephen McIntyre to fit within the science/non-science spectrum?
Seems like someone that is a thorn in the side of some scientist that are obsessed about him. Someone I appreciate. Doesn't he only attack methodologies and such and is actually "agnostic" in this larger debate? But how does certain scientists at CRU holding a nasty contempt for him in the hacked E-Mail (contrasted with the polite, appreciative replies by GISS) call into the question the entire field of climate science?

 
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
Where do you consider Stephen McIntyre to fit within the science/non-science spectrum?
Seems like someone that is a thorn in the side of some scientist that are obsessed about him. Someone I appreciate. Doesn't he only attack methodologies and such and is actually "agnostic" in this larger debate? But how does certain scientists at CRU holding a nasty contempt for him in the hacked E-Mail (contrasted with the polite, appreciative replies by GISS) call into the question the entire field of climate science?
I did not call into question the entire field of climate science - in fact, I'm on record as believing that global warming is probably happening, and better than 50% odds that man has a statistically significant role in it. However, I believe that the guys @ GISS, CRU, IPCC (in conjunction with Gore) have all vastly overstated the case - in terms of immediacy, severity, and causality.It's my position that if the science is as sound as they are claiming, it should withstand all criticism, whether that be from internet bloggers, geologists (funny how all geologists seem to be on the anti-AGW side), non-conforming climatologists, or big-oil sponsored pseudo-scientists. It appears to me that the result of "climate-gate" is that full review has not been accomplished to date - a full review that will lead to answers for all of the issues discovered by McIntyre and the rest of the blogosphere.

 
the difference between science and dogma is that science is on the constant defensive. Every little detail must be challenged and defended. every time that data is "homogenized", the reason for and the steps to homogonize must be recorded and open to debate. Challenging every detail if every test that others have performed is part of validating the theory. It's appropriate, justified, and necessary.

you say that the nay-sayers must come up with their own hypothesis to be discussed, but you are not open to a full and complete vetting of your own position. don't you find that a bit contrary (or as woz would say, aloof)?
Nope. I'm arguing that in the realm of science I trust those practicing science, not those attacking it outside of science.
Where do you consider Stephen McIntyre to fit within the science/non-science spectrum?
Seems like someone that is a thorn in the side of some scientist that are obsessed about him. Someone I appreciate. Doesn't he only attack methodologies and such and is actually "agnostic" in this larger debate? But how does certain scientists at CRU holding a nasty contempt for him in the hacked E-Mail (contrasted with the polite, appreciative replies by GISS) call into the question the entire field of climate science?
I did not call into question the entire field of climate science - in fact, I'm on record as believing that global warming is probably happening, and better than 50% odds that man has a statistically significant role in it. However, I believe that the guys @ GISS, CRU, IPCC (in conjunction with Gore) have all vastly overstated the case - in terms of immediacy, severity, and causality.It's my position that if the science is as sound as they are claiming, it should withstand all criticism, whether that be from internet bloggers, geologists (funny how all geologists seem to be on the anti-AGW side), non-conforming climatologists, or big-oil sponsored pseudo-scientists. It appears to me that the result of "climate-gate" is that full review has not been accomplished to date - a full review that will lead to answers for all of the issues discovered by McIntyre and the rest of the blogosphere.
Other than the bolded, I agree with pretty much everything you have here (although I've denied in this thread several times that the research is a knee jerk demand for public policy). I'm disappointed in how the IPCC has handled this situation, but ####, who am I to judge. People make mistakes, even scientists. Avoiding the "gotcha!" science of McIntyre and folks of their ilk(!) just doesn't pay off; the science would be better off if they had just taken the occasional hit and moved on. The reason why nerds like me are in defense mode is because we know that reasonable people who don't follow the situation will likely want to take the position of, "Hey this is pretty effed up, we should wait 'til the dust settles", and this position is the exact response that skeptics want to invoke. They know that disproving climate change is a long shot. They really only hope to delay or cloud the issue.
 
I did not call into question the entire field of climate science - in fact, I'm on record as believing that global warming is probably happening, and better than 50% odds that man has a statistically significant role in it. However, I believe that the guys @ GISS, CRU, IPCC (in conjunction with Gore) have all vastly overstated the case - in terms of immediacy, severity, and causality.
Don't remember making the claim that you called into question the entire field of climate science. My replied in this thread have been directed at the notion that the e-mails, the commented source code, some hand picked examples, etc. are not compelling evidence to make that specific claim. I've tried to avoid taking a side in the climate change debate other than to assert that I trust the scientists to ultimately figure out. I'm sure that all of the above have sensationalized the case to get attention in our "if it bleeds, it leads" society.
It's my position that if the science is as sound as they are claiming, it should withstand all criticism, whether that be from internet bloggers, geologists (funny how all geologists seem to be on the anti-AGW side), non-conforming climatologists, or big-oil sponsored pseudo-scientists. It appears to me that the result of "climate-gate" is that full review has not been accomplished to date - a full review that will lead to answers for all of the issues discovered by McIntyre and the rest of the blogosphere.
I don't disagree with this in principle, but in how it is expected to be accomplished in practice. Where I disagree is the belief that the scientist need to stop what they are doing in order to satisfy those that intent to win the debate through their willingness to be persistent more than anything else. I don't mind subjecting science to persistent questioning, but I don't see how failing to be responsive to every frivolous demand as an indictment to the science itself.
 
Other than the bolded, I agree with pretty much everything you have here (although I've denied in this thread several times that the research is a knee jerk demand for public policy). I'm disappointed in how the IPCC has handled this situation, but ####, who am I to judge. People make mistakes, even scientists. Avoiding the "gotcha!" science of McIntyre and folks of their ilk(!) just doesn't pay off; the science would be better off if they had just taken the occasional hit and moved on. The reason why nerds like me are in defense mode is because we know that reasonable people who don't follow the situation will likely want to take the position of, "Hey this is pretty effed up, we should wait 'til the dust settles", and this position is the exact response that skeptics want to invoke. They know that disproving climate change is a long shot. They really only hope to delay or cloud the issue.
This isn't gotcha science. It's the first legitimate peer review of these things. I don't think most people can go to Siberia, cut down trees, count tree rings, and reproduce this work. Or go to Antarctica, cut out ice cores, and independently examine those. We need to be able to trust the people that our government has given billions to to perform this work in the first place. And for that, we need to be able to see the underlying data that allowed them to come to these conclusions. Which they've only shared with other climate scientists in their little circle so they can reproduce the same proxy numbers again and again and again to "independently verify" the work.
 
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Other than the bolded, I agree with pretty much everything you have here (although I've denied in this thread several times that the research is a knee jerk demand for public policy). I'm disappointed in how the IPCC has handled this situation, but ####, who am I to judge. People make mistakes, even scientists. Avoiding the "gotcha!" science of McIntyre and folks of their ilk(!) just doesn't pay off; the science would be better off if they had just taken the occasional hit and moved on. The reason why nerds like me are in defense mode is because we know that reasonable people who don't follow the situation will likely want to take the position of, "Hey this is pretty effed up, we should wait 'til the dust settles", and this position is the exact response that skeptics want to invoke. They know that disproving climate change is a long shot. They really only hope to delay or cloud the issue.
This isn't gotcha science. It's the first legitimate peer review of these things. I don't think most people can go to Siberia, cut down trees, count tree rings, and reproduce this work. Or go to Antarctica, cut out ice cores, and independently examine those. We need to be able to trust the people that our government has given billions to to perform this work in the first place. And for that, we need to be able to see the underlying data that allowed them to come to these conclusions. Which they've only shared with other climate scientists in their little circle so they can reproduce the same proxy numbers again and again and again to "independently verify" the work.
So you're going with an internet blogger with ties to the oil industry over the vast majority of the scientific community?
 
I did not call into question the entire field of climate science - in fact, I'm on record as believing that global warming is probably happening, and better than 50% odds that man has a statistically significant role in it. However, I believe that the guys @ GISS, CRU, IPCC (in conjunction with Gore) have all vastly overstated the case - in terms of immediacy, severity, and causality.
Don't remember making the claim that you called into question the entire field of climate science. My replied in this thread have been directed at the notion that the e-mails, the commented source code, some hand picked examples, etc. are not compelling evidence to make that specific claim. I've tried to avoid taking a side in the climate change debate other than to assert that I trust the scientists to ultimately figure out. I'm sure that all of the above have sensationalized the case to get attention in our "if it bleeds, it leads" society.
It's my position that if the science is as sound as they are claiming, it should withstand all criticism, whether that be from internet bloggers, geologists (funny how all geologists seem to be on the anti-AGW side), non-conforming climatologists, or big-oil sponsored pseudo-scientists. It appears to me that the result of "climate-gate" is that full review has not been accomplished to date - a full review that will lead to answers for all of the issues discovered by McIntyre and the rest of the blogosphere.
I don't disagree with this in principle, but in how it is expected to be accomplished in practice. Where I disagree is the belief that the scientist need to stop what they are doing in order to satisfy those that intent to win the debate through their willingness to be persistent more than anything else. I don't mind subjecting science to persistent questioning, but I don't see how failing to be responsive to every frivolous demand as an indictment to the science itself.
The demands have never been frivolous. All McIntyre has ever wanted was the data sets and ideally the source code that all of this stuff was based on. Data and code that they were more than happy to share amongst themselves with the whole "don't let anyone else see this" deal attached to it. And the CRU emails highlight the fact that there has been a systemic attempt to make this unavailable to avoid scrutiny. Not only at CRU, but also at the organzations that they work closely with and author a bunch of papers to science journals with. Who happen to be all main players for the IPCC reports, conveniently enough.
 
Other than the bolded, I agree with pretty much everything you have here (although I've denied in this thread several times that the research is a knee jerk demand for public policy). I'm disappointed in how the IPCC has handled this situation, but ####, who am I to judge. People make mistakes, even scientists. Avoiding the "gotcha!" science of McIntyre and folks of their ilk(!) just doesn't pay off; the science would be better off if they had just taken the occasional hit and moved on. The reason why nerds like me are in defense mode is because we know that reasonable people who don't follow the situation will likely want to take the position of, "Hey this is pretty effed up, we should wait 'til the dust settles", and this position is the exact response that skeptics want to invoke. They know that disproving climate change is a long shot. They really only hope to delay or cloud the issue.
This isn't gotcha science. It's the first legitimate peer review of these things. I don't think most people can go to Siberia, cut down trees, count tree rings, and reproduce this work. Or go to Antarctica, cut out ice cores, and independently examine those. We need to be able to trust the people that our government has given billions to to perform this work in the first place. And for that, we need to be able to see the underlying data that allowed them to come to these conclusions. Which they've only shared with other climate scientists in their little circle so they can reproduce the same proxy numbers again and again and again to "independently verify" the work.
So you're going with an internet blogger with ties to the oil industry over the vast majority of the scientific community?
He has no ties to the oil industry, why do you guys make this BS up? Why don't you guys read some of this stuff as closely as you do all of this stuff Mann, Jones, et al are spoon feeding you? From the 13 page report:
Who paid for your research?

We have neither sought nor received funding for this work. For McKitrick, undertaking the project has required considerable time away from his own economics research. For McIntyre, undertaking this project has required an unpaid leave of absence from his career in mineral exploration financing, at the cost of over a year’s foregone earnings so far.
These guys are doing this on their own dime. They can't afford to fly out to Siberia, cut down 15 trees, and call it a century worth of data let alone do the study properly. So they need the authors to abide scientific protocol and make their publicly funded data available.Also, I'm sure you weren't aware, but this "internet blogger's" work also prompted congressional reviews that agreed with their findings in many ways. Their findings caused GISS (NASA) to correct their temperature data earlier this year as well. The media didn't really report those too much though.

 
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Wiki on McIntryre:

He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in mathematics from the University of Toronto. He studied philosophy, politics and economics at the University of Oxford before graduating in 1971.[2]

McIntyre worked for 30 years in the mineral business,[2] the last part of these in the hard-rock mineral exploration as an officer or director of several public mineral exploration companies.[3] He has also been a policy analyst at both the governments of Ontario and of Canada.[4] He was the president and founder of Northwest Exploration Company Limited and a director of its parent company, Northwest Explorations Inc. When Northwest Explorations Inc. was taken over in 1998 by CGX Resources Inc. to form the oil and gas exploration company CGX Energy Inc., McIntyre ceased being a director. McIntyre was a strategic advisor for CGX in 2000 through 2003.
The link to CGX: http://cgxenergy.ca/investors/CGX_AR03_part2.pdfHe also happened to start his first skeptic blog in 2003.

 
Wiki on McIntryre:

He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in mathematics from the University of Toronto. He studied philosophy, politics and economics at the University of Oxford before graduating in 1971.[2]

McIntyre worked for 30 years in the mineral business,[2] the last part of these in the hard-rock mineral exploration as an officer or director of several public mineral exploration companies.[3] He has also been a policy analyst at both the governments of Ontario and of Canada.[4] He was the president and founder of Northwest Exploration Company Limited and a director of its parent company, Northwest Explorations Inc. When Northwest Explorations Inc. was taken over in 1998 by CGX Resources Inc. to form the oil and gas exploration company CGX Energy Inc., McIntyre ceased being a director. McIntyre was a strategic advisor for CGX in 2000 through 2003.
The link to CGX: http://cgxenergy.ca/investors/CGX_AR03_part2.pdfHe also happened to start his first skeptic blog in 2003.
An advisor to a company that took over a company he founded? You're grabbing at straws here.
 
Exactly. You are missing a much larger picture.
You certainly aren't doing a very good job of painting that picture. I have no clue what you are talking about - it's as if you're intentionally trying to talk in circles and make no point whatsover.
My point is you are pushing one survey as the death blow to an argument that goes well beyond the results of that particular study. The issue is much more complex than you are making it out to be and the bottom line remains that the vast majority of climatologists agree that humans are having a direct influence.The new satellite they sent up this morning might send back some interesting info. Stay tuned.
But if it doesn't, its just one satellite, right?
 

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