The spike/delay of game rule (1 Viewer)

[Lord Lucan]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.

The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.

The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.

My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

 

[GregR_2]

Didn't see that piece, but I skimmed through the rule book section on enforcing penalties, and assuming there is a 5 yard penalty the defense could do at that point, then it sounds like it would work, yes.

I'd expect the NFL would look to close that loophole for next year.

 

[Lord Lucan]

If defensive coaching staff are paying attention, I can see a really high-profile scenario occurring in the next few weeks the next time someone on offense spikes the ball/throws it away after a play that results in a first down. This is assuming they don't have some clause in the rules where they can get the defense for unsportsmanlike conduct if they create their own delay-of-game penalty to offset one caused by the offense (but I don't see how they could word a rule like that).

Worth noting that a personal foul at the end of the play would not work for the defense as that would be a major penalty and would therefore not be offset. But as far as I can tell a minor penalty would do the trick.

 

[tribs]

I was watching that game as well. Wouldn't the Giants have the option to decline the penalty for Defensive Offsides, and then take the result of the play along with the dead ball delay of game penalty? Was this just missed by the Coaches?

 

[mad sweeney]

The defensive guy doing it after could be construed as a dead ball foul, even though technically a spike happens after the play is over too but it's just barely over. That's a possible reason why that wouldn't work.

 

[Lord Lucan]

I was watching that game as well. Wouldn't the Giants have the option to decline the penalty for Defensive Offsides, and then take the result of the play along with the dead ball delay of game penalty? Was this just missed by the Coaches?

Apparently not. Because they are both minor penalties, they simply offset. If the defensive penalty was a major one such as a personal foul, that would be different.

 

[Pipes]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

 

[GregR_2]

I was watching that game as well. Wouldn't the Giants have the option to decline the penalty for Defensive Offsides, and then take the result of the play along with the dead ball delay of game penalty? Was this just missed by the Coaches?

Nope, you can't decline a penalty that is part of offsetting fouls:

Rule 14 Penalty EnforcementSection 6 Refusal of Penalties5) If fouls are committed by both teams during the same down (double foul), no penalty may be declined, except as provided for kickers when their only foul is illegal touching of a scrimmage kick.

 

[GregR_2]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

The only thing I can think of would be to get themselves a similar delay of game penalty.

 

[Lord Lucan]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

As I said in my post, what if a defensive player had kicked the ball a few yards further away immediately after Owens had thrown it away? Mad Sweeney's point is probably valid though. Although I find it hard to see how they would justify saying that an offensive player spiking/throwing the ball away could be a live action/continuing action foul and a defensive player kicking/pushing/throwing the ball away a second later could be a dead ball foul.

 

[GregR_2]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

As I said in my post, what if a defensive player had kicked the ball a few yards further away immediately after Owens had thrown it away? Mad Sweeney's point is probably valid though. Although I find it hard to see how they would justify saying that an offensive player spiking/throwing the ball away could be a live action/continuing action foul and a defensive player kicking/pushing/throwing the ball away a second later could be a dead ball foul.

Since the whistle would have blown, both of them would have to be dead ball fouls.

 

[mad sweeney]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

As I said in my post, what if a defensive player had kicked the ball a few yards further away immediately after Owens had thrown it away? Mad Sweeney's point is probably valid though. Although I find it hard to see how they would justify saying that an offensive player spiking/throwing the ball away could be a live action/continuing action foul and a defensive player kicking/pushing/throwing the ball away a second later could be a dead ball foul.

Obviously I'm just speculating but I would equate it with the two step rule for late hits. If the guy with the ball spikes it right after a tackle that's sort of like within two step but a defender coming in after would be a late (and thus dead ball) penalty.I dunno, they have a lot to work out on this rule because I saw some stupid flags for it this weekend (don't remember who) and some flagrant ones that weren't called (Welker twice).

 

[Lord Lucan]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.

The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.

The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.

My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

As I said in my post, what if a defensive player had kicked the ball a few yards further away immediately after Owens had thrown it away? Mad Sweeney's point is probably valid though. Although I find it hard to see how they would justify saying that an offensive player spiking/throwing the ball away could be a live action/continuing action foul and a defensive player kicking/pushing/throwing the ball away a second later could be a dead ball foul.

Obviously I'm just speculating but I would equate it with the two step rule for late hits. If the guy with the ball spikes it right after a tackle that's sort of like within two step but a defender coming in after would be a late (and thus dead ball) penalty.I dunno, they have a lot to work out on this rule because I saw some stupid flags for it this weekend (don't remember who) and some flagrant ones that weren't called (Welker twice).

Yes, this is a good example of one of those ones that wasn't penalised...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB8dVZzSV0A

 

[mad sweeney]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.

The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.

The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.

My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

As I said in my post, what if a defensive player had kicked the ball a few yards further away immediately after Owens had thrown it away? Mad Sweeney's point is probably valid though. Although I find it hard to see how they would justify saying that an offensive player spiking/throwing the ball away could be a live action/continuing action foul and a defensive player kicking/pushing/throwing the ball away a second later could be a dead ball foul.

Obviously I'm just speculating but I would equate it with the two step rule for late hits. If the guy with the ball spikes it right after a tackle that's sort of like within two step but a defender coming in after would be a late (and thus dead ball) penalty.I dunno, they have a lot to work out on this rule because I saw some stupid flags for it this weekend (don't remember who) and some flagrant ones that weren't called (Welker twice).

Yes, this is a good example of one of those ones that wasn't penalised...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB8dVZzSV0A

That's the least flagrant of his two. And I agree with the non-call on that. My problem is that in an earlier game, again I can't remember, something even less flagrant than that was penalized. It's a new rule and there will be some adjusting but it is very silly to call stuff like this example and others. Shockey's penalty I can understand, at least as far as the rule goes, but this is one of the sillier rules the league has come up with lately.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

The only thing I can think of would be to get themselves a similar delay of game penalty.

What about taking your helmet off on the field?

 

[AB in DC]

My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away?

Yes, a defensive player should absolutely go back in time and commit a penalty before the whistle. If he can.

 

[Jaysus]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

The only thing I can think of would be to get themselves a similar delay of game penalty.

What about taking your helmet off on the field?

how funny would it be to see the entire defense remove their helmets at once in that situation!!

 

[GregR_2]

I half-caught a piece on NFL Total Access where they were discussing two separate instances last weekend of the delay of game penalty for spiking the ball/throwing it away after a reception or run.The first involved Owens throwing the ball away after a long first down catch (28 yards). The first down stood, but the Cowboys were merely backed up 5 yards from the spot of the reception for the DOG penalty.The second involved Shockey for NYG and another reception (from 3rd and 4) that resulted in a first down. However, the Packers had jumped offsides on that play. Because the two penalties were both minor rather than major, by rule they were deemed to be offsetting so NYG had to go back to 3rd down and 4 again rather than having the first down with a 5-yard penalty assessed afterwards.My question then is this: from now on, should not defensive coaches be teaching their players that if an opponent spikes the ball or throws it away after a play that results in a first down, then they, too, should try to commit a minor penalty - presumably kicking the ball a bit further away, or something similar, would do the trick - to ensure offsetting fouls so that the offense has their first down taken away? In other words, isn't this rule just crazy? Or have I misinterpreted the rule?

Do you have an example of an applicable offsetting penalty? I can't think of any that a defense could intentionally do after a play was over that wouldn't constitute a personal foul thus not offsetting the play.

The only thing I can think of would be to get themselves a similar delay of game penalty.

What about taking your helmet off on the field?

That's a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. If the previous statements about spiking the ball being a 5 yard penalty are true, that wouldn't result in off-setting penalties.