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:( He didn't budge with LT last year and got him to restructure and take less money.
but signing guys to more than what he thinks their worth long term could damage the teams long term chances. He's the GM of a team in a bit of transition (although it's not a rebuild and they'll still be competitive) and I'd expect he's thinking more longer term.Matt Waldman said:
Considering VJax's playoff blunders, that might be the absolute worst time to have him back.
i think that only applies to players under contract
He would risk $3 mill because he wants $24 mill (what Marshall got)To get that $24 mill all he has to do is1. become unrestricted (play the last 7 games)2. stay healthy (play no more than the last 7 games)He isn't going to let the $3 mill distract him from the real prize
But it's not an either-or scenario. If he plays and earns the $3M this year, he still becomes unrestricted after this season. Plus he improves his chances of negotiating a long term contract with the Chargers (if he wants that). So the only thing left from your point is that he would prefer to avoid training camp, preseason, and the first 9 games in order to avoid injury.
I think you are forgetting the biggest one...3. PRAY there isn't a work stoppage.In the scenario you design he would make less than 1/2 of the ~$580,000 in 2010 and he might make $0 in 2011. Now I could certainly live on ~$290,000 over two years but I'm not so sure that wouldn't put a crimp in the lifestyle of the average NFL player. Also, I'm sure 2012 would go off without a hitch but what is the CBA at that time? Ask yourself if the owners are sitting in a position with all the power right now or are the players? Add to that he pretty much flushed two of the prime money making years of his career(age 27 and 28) by not negotiating a long-term deal with a big signing bonus before the work stoppage.This post may sound critical of Vincent Jackson but it's not meant to be. He's not under contract and if he feels as though he's worth more than is being offered he should sit out imo rather than sign a bad deal and complain about it later. I just think, even if you were to ignore the off-field stuff, he's in a terrible bargaining position at the moment.
exactlywhen you're dealing with $24 million, you don't mess aroundSo the only thing left from your point is that he would prefer to avoid training camp, preseason, and the first 9 games in order to avoid injury.
I think AJ would like to sign both to long term deals but right now with the work stoppage looming he holds all the cards and has shown in the past when he's been in that situation he's unbending. I would compare this to the Rivers/Gates contract negotiations. In the case of Rivers rookie contract AJ had Brees and could simply just wait out Rivers until he was ready to sign. In the case of Gates AJ gave Gates a hard deadline and informed him that paperwork would get filed with the league if Gates wasn't willing to report by the deadline. Gates didn't report, the paperwork was filed with the league, and Gates reported shortly thereafter which caused him to miss the first game of the season. In both instances plenty of people assumed there would be "hard feelings" afterward but if there are people that think Rivers/Gates have been slacking the past several years I haven't noticed it myself. They both "caved" but have gotten paid well and I would expect the same will happen with both Jackson/McNeil.These two players are in a much different situations than the Edwards/Tomlinson negotiations. In those cases I think AJ simply felt both were well past their prime and didn't care if he burned bridges with the player or not. Ironically, in both cases AJ didn't really do an adequate job of preparing for either player having an ultimate replacement before they departed. In both cases there were obviously hard feelings on the part of the players.Portis Homer said:
Then why is it that we don't see every single good to great player entering a contract year do this?exactlywhen you're dealing with $24 million, you don't mess aroundSo the only thing left from your point is that he would prefer to avoid training camp, preseason, and the first 9 games in order to avoid injury.
well we don't know that they are doing it yetbut if they did, that would be their reasoning
BoltBacker said:
VJax with all his talent is in no position to bargain for a better deal. He is likely going to miss some games, (perhaps the first 4) of this season for his repeated DUI's. How he is going to get any sympathy from AJ is a mystery to me.And McNeil has regressed at LT position after having a solid rookie year. He also is in a tough spot. I think AJ has them by the short hairs when all is said and done.
I think in dynasty format he's a hold, as I doubt you'll get fair value.In redraft, I'd try to move him for decent value.
I've never felt McNeil has lived up to his rookie season either. Don't get me wrong, he's still good and they need him badly but he hasn't been improving since then.If you think AJ has both players by the short hairs now just imagine for a minute if AJ had used that 1st rounder to acquire either J.Gaither or B.Marshall and maybe drafted a guy like Bruce Cambell in the third round. Instead they move up to grab a RB in the top half of the first round that, according to fans in the Charger thread, will be a success if he can get 4.0y/c this year.I don't think either guy holds out past the third preseason game and since Jackson has played with Rivers for awhile and McNeil has played beside Dielman for awhile all in the same offense it probably wouldn't matter all that much if they didn't rejoin the team right before the season began assuming they show up in relatively good shape.
This and the Nathan Vasher move could be huge...... assuming they can find a good deal on a flux capacitor.
once their tender offer gets cut, what incentive do they have to show up before week 10?PS: an extended holdout gives lots of opportunity to Buster Davis . . .
The same incentive Gates had when he chose to report just after the deadline that made him lose a game check... $. Being "low paid" in the NFL isn't the best job in the world but it's right up there.
I've been a Buster apologist for a long time because he's a WR and I expect very little out of WR's in the first two years but I would have thought he'd at least be wowing people in the offseason by now. I'd much rather have Naane at this point from a FF perspective if you did think the Jackson holdout might go into the regular season.
If they aren't willing to play for $3 mill, $600k definitely isn't going to cut it
he has been, everyone at the minicamps and OTAs has been gushing about Davis. Rivers, Norv, Acee, Weddle and Cooper have all made incredibly positive statements about how he's doing
I hadn't read that, I'll have to go look and read some quotes. Thanks for the heads-up.
I traded V-Jax, Coffee, 2011 2nd for Jennings, 2011 3rd.Preseason I valued V-Jax as my 4th overall WR in dynasty. I liked him a lot. However, my team has a good chance of making a run this year and I wanted to ditch him being afraid of the suspension. I also owned Gates and Mathews so I was looking to diversify.
Very nice deal for you, possibly for both teams.
It's hard to feel too bad for someone who won't play for $3 million, even if he'd command more than that as a free agent.In any case, it's unfortunate for V.Jax that he's not unrestricted this season, but the players' union agreed to it. It's hard to fault the owners for that, IMO.KellysHeroes said:
Thanks to everyone for all the good information. In regards to Philip Rivers, how much do SD homers believe this would hurt his per game production should Vincent Jackson miss any games? I have watched very little Charger games, and don't have an informed opinion on the other WRs (Floyd, Nanee, Davis). Would these WRs and Gates be enough to keep Rivers production on par with last year (for example, his average game log was around 2 TDs and 250-275 yards)?
but it should be a free market... Freaking Berrian is playing for more money (2011: $3.9 million)Yeah, 3.6 Mil isn't to bad... but theres no insurance for the player if he gets hurt.
Well actually there is. Llyods of London covers professional athletes for just these reasons. Not to be a smart ###. I'm not sure how many players actually use it. Maybe it's more for college players.
It's not really a free market when a union is involved. Without a players' union, restricted free agency would probably violate antitrust laws and all un-signed players would be unrestricted free agents. But the players gave that up in return for other consideration (like a guaranteed percentage of league revenues) by forming a union and bargaining collectively.It's a bad deal this year for V.Jax and other players in his situation. But it's part of not getting a new CBA done. The poison pill for the owners is that there's no salary cap this season. The poison pill for the players is that a lot more free agents are restricted this season. It's not ideal for either side, but they should have seen it coming as long as no new CBA was struck.
Even without Jackson the Chargers still have plenty of good targets for Rivers to throw to. If Jackson doesn't play it will hurt Rivers, but I'm not sure that's as big a concern as the fact that Norv wants to reestablish a running game this season, so Rivers' attempts may go down.In other words, Jackson may hurt Rivers' fantasy-points-per-attempt. But I don't think that will matter as much as a potential decrease in attempts.
Last year was the first year that Rivers had anything on his team that resembled a WR1. Even then, there were a lot of games where VJax either disappeared or was under-utilized. In those weeks and in previous years, Rivers still was a stud more often than not.
I don't agree. It is a combination of talents. Rivers is a stud, but that doesn't diminish Jackson's talent. He'd be a stud on any other team. He will be missed as there is a huge dropoff in talent if he is lost to suspension. I don't think it will be business as usual.Polar Dude said:_lurker_ said:
I agree with both of these points. I'd even go as far as to say that there are quite a few teams that VJax could establish himself as one of the top five WRs in the game if he was on - teams or QBs that are more willing to rely on a WR1, don't necessarily view all of their WRs/TEs/RBs as viable options, and/or don't have the depth at those positions that the Chargers do. I think there are very few WRs in this league that have the combination of size, strength, and athleticism that VJax does.
The dropoff isn't that large just because you haven't seen or heard of some of the guys that are behind him in the depth chart. Floyd and Naane have very similar skill sets as VJax, and apparently Buster is starting to realize some of his potential (although I'll believe it when I see it). Don't forget that Gates and Sproles are two of the better receivers playing their respective positions in the entire league. This offense will still be high-powered with or without Jackson.The one thing that would be different without Jackson is there will be no one to spike the ball after catching it (and not being downed) midfield or causing game-killing completely-avoidable penalties during the playoffs. Okay, even I don't believe that. These are the Chargers, after all.
In particular, Floyd is very similar to Jackson, both physically and with respect to skills/talent. I'm less sold on Naane than most around here, but he is at least solid. IMO the combination of Gates, Sproles, Matthews, Floyd, Naane, and Davis would still be a strong receiving group.
They played very different roles, which makes them hard to compare directly, but I think Reed fulfilled his role better than TO did his.Reed was basically the third-down possession receiver, sticking to mostly underneath routes. But he had generally very reliable hands, ran good patterns, and made few mistakes.Owens has more big-play ability, but is far less consistent. He drops too many balls, and no longer separates the way he did earlier in his career (although he did still get open deep a fair amount when the QB missed him). Owens could bounce back this year with a better QB, but last year's frustrations weren't all on Fitzpatrick and Edwards.I'm not saying that Reed is better than Owens. Reed can't play the role that Owens plays. But if you grade each guy's 2009 performance by the ratio of plays where they did their job to plays where they made errors, I think Reed would grade out higher by a decent margin.
