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There is something utterly wrong with fantasy football that CHI def (1 Viewer)

Lash

Footballguy
disclaimer: i own Chicago DST in two leagues so not a post venting about getting beat yesterday due to this inherent problem

those five defenses listed in the subtitle gave up about the same amount of points combined that the chicago defense gave up, or 7 to 11 points each..

that is an inherent problem with DST scoring, teams are not rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do; keep the other team from scoring...

offensive fantasy players for the most part get points for helping their team on offense...

but how can any league justify a scoring system that gives Chicago a huge day yesterday when they had the third WORST points allowed day of the year...

two solutions:

1) go IDP

or if IDP isn't an option...

2) for every 1 point allowed equals -1 FP (in addition to the normal sack, TO, TDs scored)

the #2 option above really is a better determination of who has the better defense...

i mean think about it, should the Titans be penalized because they aren't ballhawks or sack artists? No, the simply stuff you 3 and out and make you punt --- THAT SHOULD BE REWARDED in fantasy football leagues, not the team that scores twice but gives up FORTY-ONE POINTS...thoughts?

 
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After 28 pts, you should start hitting the negatives... and not just -1 or -2 , more like -5 for each 7 pts scored after 28.

 
IDP has a similar problem, at least in my league's scoring system:

Let's say CB "X" gets an INT, 3 tackles, and 2 pass def. He would get 6 + 4.5 + 6 = 16.5 points, which would be a great day.

Now, let's say that same CB gets beat 3 times for long TDs. That isn't reflected at all in the scoring.

A good example of a CB that would fit the bill for this example is Jason David (NO). He has a reputation (at least now, on NO) of getting beat deep, but he still also will make plays on a semi-regular basis. I'm not saying David is a CB you want to start on a weekly basis...

 
1) The Chicago defense scored 21 points, and allowed 41 points, so really, it's like they only allowed 20 points. So the disparity isn't that big. They forced a lot of turnovers, which is a good thing. Plus, they were on the field longer than they should have been, because after forcing a turnover, they immediately scored, so it's expected that they would give up more points.

2) This is no more unfair than the Colts' defense being charged for the two TDs that Manning allowed.

3) In the short run, it may seem like the Titans got shortchanged for a "better" defensive effort, but at the end of the season, it should even out fairly well.

 
that is an inherent problem with DST scoring, teams are not rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do; keep the other team from scoring...
Fantasy DSTs accrue points based on the rules set up in a given fantasy league.The rules in a given fantasy league are constructed by the league for reasons their own.It am what it is.
 
this reminds me of a scoring tweak I'd like to find a way to implement some day to check it out ---- what would you think if players on a winning team (real world) had their points bumped up, say, 10-20%?

 
disclaimer: i own Chicago DST in two leagues so not a post venting about getting beat yesterday due to this inherent problemthose five defenses listed in the subtitle gave up about the same amount of points combined that the chicago defense gave up, or 7 to 11 points each..that is an inherent problem with DST scoring, teams are not rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do; keep the other team from scoring...offensive fantasy players for the most part get points for helping their team on offense...but how can any league justify a scoring system that gives Chicago a huge day yesterday when they had the third WORST points allowed day of the year...two solutions:1) go IDPor if IDP isn't an option...2) for every 1 point allowed equals -1 FP (in addition to the normal sack, TO, TDs scored)the #2 option above really is a better determination of who has the better defense...i mean think about it, should the Titans be penalized because they aren't ballhawks or sack artists? No, the simply stuff you 3 and out and make you punt --- THAT SHOULD BE REWARDED in fantasy football leagues, not the team that scores twice but gives up FORTY-ONE POINTS...thoughts?
I belong to a $1000 buy in total score 10 team league. A few years ago we decided that the Defenses were way out of line in the weekly scoring so we made a very significany rule change. We quit giving points for defensive and special teams TD's scored as we decided that they were to much related to luck. We now award points for the fewer points allowed by a defense as well as sacks, int's, fumbles and safety's. The defense's are now more in line with where they are drafted and it seems much fairer to all concerned. Now if you own Sproles and he returns a kick for a TD you get 6 points but you must own the player that scored the special or defensive TD. Just thought I would let you know how we have evened the playing field somewhat regarding this matter.
 
There must be something wrong with the NFL if a team can surrender 41 points and still win the game.

But, as the old adage says: "If you outscore the opposition you will win your game more than 85.2% of the time."

 
1) The Chicago defense scored 21 points, and allowed 41 points, so really, it's like they only allowed 20 points. So the disparity isn't that big. They forced a lot of turnovers, which is a good thing. Plus, they were on the field longer than they should have been, because after forcing a turnover, they immediately scored, so it's expected that they would give up more points.

2) This is no more unfair than the Colts' defense being charged for the two TDs that Manning allowed.

3) In the short run, it may seem like the Titans got shortchanged for a "better" defensive effort, but at the end of the season, it should even out fairly well.
we don't count those points against the team DST, commish gives a manual override on those 14 points
 
We have a graduated scale. Something like:

PA = FP

0 = 10

1-7 = 7

8-14=4

15-19 = 1

20-30 = 0

30 -36 = -1

37+ = -4

CHI scored 26 points in that league. ST TDs don't count against the D in the total score.

 
1) The Chicago defense scored 21 points, and allowed 41 points, so really, it's like they only allowed 20 points. So the disparity isn't that big. They forced a lot of turnovers, which is a good thing. Plus, they were on the field longer than they should have been, because after forcing a turnover, they immediately scored, so it's expected that they would give up more points. 2) This is no more unfair than the Colts' defense being charged for the two TDs that Manning allowed. 3) In the short run, it may seem like the Titans got shortchanged for a "better" defensive effort, but at the end of the season, it should even out fairly well.
:thumbup: Finally an argument with logic. You have to look beyond the score - what CHI Def did in that game is far more impressive than what TEN Def did yesterday. It's all about turnovers folks.
 
There is no way to handle this without give & take. I think the league I run is set up pretty fairly for D/STs, and in that league CHI scored 32, PIT & TB 24, TEN 18, CAR 17, WAS only 11 (though they had just 1 sack and no turnovers). Obviously giving up a ton of points doesn't = a great difensive performance, but they did also score 2 TDs, force 5 turnovers & post 4 sacks, which have to be worth something (not just "something" actually, but quite a bit) on the plus side. True, the other teams you mention didn't give up 41 points, but how many of them scored 2 TDs & forced all those turnovers & sacks? There has to be give & take.

A more interesting question (at least to me, being someone who didn't see the game) is "how did MIN manage to score 41 points while turning the ball over 5 times & giving up 4 sacks?" Seriously....that doesn't even seem possible, though it obviously happened.

 
21.50 17 yd blocked punt return TD (6.00 pts)

0 yd fumble return TD (6.00 pts)

2.0 sacks (2.00 pts)

1 blocked punt (2.00 pts)

4 interceptions (10.00 pts)

1 fumble recovered (2.50 pts)

41 total points allowed (-4.00 pts)

439 total net yards allowed (-3.00 pts)

Here is the scoring from my league for the Bears D yesterday. I use yardage and points against for defense with - points for giving up too much......seems to help balance things out.

Some other D scoring looked like this.

TB- 17

CAR-12

TEN-13

PIT-21.5

 
I don't see what the probem is. Chicago D had a great day fantasy wise. No different than a player that gets shut down all game until the last 2 drives where he puts up big yards and 2 TDs when the team is trailing 35-0 and the other team has scrubs in on D.

 
disclaimer: i own Chicago DST in two leagues so not a post venting about getting beat yesterday due to this inherent problemthose five defenses listed in the subtitle gave up about the same amount of points combined that the chicago defense gave up, or 7 to 11 points each..that is an inherent problem with DST scoring, teams are not rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do; keep the other team from scoring...offensive fantasy players for the most part get points for helping their team on offense...but how can any league justify a scoring system that gives Chicago a huge day yesterday when they had the third WORST points allowed day of the year...two solutions:1) go IDPor if IDP isn't an option...2) for every 1 point allowed equals -1 FP (in addition to the normal sack, TO, TDs scored)the #2 option above really is a better determination of who has the better defense...i mean think about it, should the Titans be penalized because they aren't ballhawks or sack artists? No, the simply stuff you 3 and out and make you punt --- THAT SHOULD BE REWARDED in fantasy football leagues, not the team that scores twice but gives up FORTY-ONE POINTS...thoughts?
I belong to a $1000 buy in total score 10 team league. A few years ago we decided that the Defenses were way out of line in the weekly scoring so we made a very significany rule change. We quit giving points for defensive and special teams TD's scored as we decided that they were to much related to luck. We now award points for the fewer points allowed by a defense as well as sacks, int's, fumbles and safety's. The defense's are now more in line with where they are drafted and it seems much fairer to all concerned. Now if you own Sproles and he returns a kick for a TD you get 6 points but you must own the player that scored the special or defensive TD. Just thought I would let you know how we have evened the playing field somewhat regarding this matter.
I like this idea. Give them credit for the INT or DFR but not 6 for the TD. And More points for lower points allowed, and a negative for giving up a ton. I think I will try to get this implemented.
 
sounds more like there's something wrong w/your league.
yes, that's the point of the threadin the 3 leagues i commish, we use the 1 PA = -1 FP

in the ones i don't commish, CHI went berserk scoring yesterday
Can you provide the ytd scoring of the top 5-10 defenses and points scored?
the top five defenses in the 1 PA = -1FP leagues are in orderTenn

TB

BAL

PIT

CAR

pretty much it is the top teams in PA in real life which are your better defenses

so the best defenses are rewarded

CHI gives up alot of points, and so shouldn't be a top5 DST

 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.

 
1) The Chicago defense scored 21 points, and allowed 41 points, so really, it's like they only allowed 20 points. So the disparity isn't that big. They forced a lot of turnovers, which is a good thing. Plus, they were on the field longer than they should have been, because after forcing a turnover, they immediately scored, so it's expected that they would give up more points. 2) This is no more unfair than the Colts' defense being charged for the two TDs that Manning allowed. 3) In the short run, it may seem like the Titans got shortchanged for a "better" defensive effort, but at the end of the season, it should even out fairly well.
:goodposting: Finally an argument with logic. You have to look beyond the score - what CHI Def did in that game is far more impressive than what TEN Def did yesterday. It's all about turnovers folks.
you're probably righti can see the CHI coaches today in film session patting alotta backs for giving up 41 and I can see the TEN coaches telling their guys what a horrible day they had since their first team defense gave up 0"you have to look beyond the score" .... huh?look beyond the score on defense to see who did the better job? first of all the first CHI TD occured because the Minny punter couldnt catch a snap that hit him squarely in the hands, the CHI DST didn't do anything but pick the ball up the second CHI TD occured because of a freak bounce of a punt that hit a Minny returner who was trying to block, again the CHI didn't create the TD they just fell on a ballTitan defense gave up 10 points, Bear defense gave up 41if you think in any manner that CHI had the better day then there is nothing more anyone can say here to convince you otherwise
 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
this is true and i agree, i think i remember a 3 carry, 3td, 1 yard performance by Bettis also so the challenge is to come up with as fair a system as possible right?in the post immediately preceding yours it lists the top five scoring defenses in the 1PA = -1FP systemTENTBBALPITCARdoesn't that just SCREAM fairness based on what you've seen on TV this year as the best "looking" defenses
 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
2004 Week 1 - Jerome Bettis rushed 5 times for 1 yard and 3 TD's
Titan defense gave up 10 points, Bear defense gave up 41if you think in any manner that CHI had the better day then there is nothing more anyone can say here to convince you otherwise
The real world is cool and all, but when I draft a fantasy defense they get points according to my fantasy league's scoring rules. According to my league rules Chicago scored 37 points and Tennessee scored 13. I think I'd rather have Chicago on my fantasy team.
 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
this is true and i agree, i think i remember a 3 carry, 3td, 1 yard performance by Bettis also so the challenge is to come up with as fair a system as possible right?in the post immediately preceding yours it lists the top five scoring defenses in the 1PA = -1FP systemTENTBBALPITCARdoesn't that just SCREAM fairness based on what you've seen on TV this year as the best "looking" defenses
I'm still really interested in what the actual weekly scores are for those teams. Average NFL team scores around 16 points or so. So, in your system, each D is likely to have at least -16? How do they make up for being that much in a hole to start with? I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't know what it is.
 
My big money league scales the points by yards and points allowed.

The more yards and points the defense allows, the less points they get. Turnovers and TDs are where CHI exceeded yesterday.

 
In the Yahoo leagues they took 6 away from Chicago. They are now listed as getting 31 pts. I'm sure a few losers are now winners.

 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
this is true and i agree, i think i remember a 3 carry, 3td, 1 yard performance by Bettis alsoso the challenge is to come up with as fair a system as possible right?in the post immediately preceding yours it lists the top five scoring defenses in the 1PA = -1FP systemTENTBBALPITCARdoesn't that just SCREAM fairness based on what you've seen on TV this year as the best "looking" defenses
I'm still really interested in what the actual weekly scores are for those teams. Average NFL team scores around 16 points or so. So, in your system, each D is likely to have at least -16? How do they make up for being that much in a hole to start with? I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't know what it is.
no you have it exactly right, a REAL good defensive day is a positive scoreour scoring is as follows:6pt per DST TD3pt per safety10pt per shutout5pt per 1-9PA-1pt per PAso if you give up for example 16 points and score a DST TD you are looking at a -10 point day which is pretty goodif you give up 3 points and have a safety you are looking at +5 which is a VERY good dayif you score a TD and pitch a shutout you get a +16if you give up 10 points then you get a -10 (TEN yesterday)if you give up 41 and score 2 TDs you get a -29 (CHI yesterday)TEN IIRC in my league is sitting at -46 on the year right now which is stout (about -8 per)so if you offense scores 81 a game you'd be averaging 73 if they were your DST
 
for those who don't like negative DST scoring on low PA allowed scoring days you can use a system as follows:

0 PA = 20 points

1-3PA = 15 points

4-8PA = 12 points

9-12PA = 9 points

13-16PA = 6 points

17-20PA = 3 points

21-24PA = 0 points

25-28PA = -3 points

29-32PA = -6 points

etc

etc

etc

etc = -20 points

OR

21 is baseline zero points - every point allowed OVER 21 is a -1 FP - every point allowed UNDER 21 is +1FP

MFL can do either of the above

 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
this is true and i agree, i think i remember a 3 carry, 3td, 1 yard performance by Bettis alsoso the challenge is to come up with as fair a system as possible right?in the post immediately preceding yours it lists the top five scoring defenses in the 1PA = -1FP systemTENTBBALPITCARdoesn't that just SCREAM fairness based on what you've seen on TV this year as the best "looking" defenses
I'm still really interested in what the actual weekly scores are for those teams. Average NFL team scores around 16 points or so. So, in your system, each D is likely to have at least -16? How do they make up for being that much in a hole to start with? I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't know what it is.
no you have it exactly right, a REAL good defensive day is a positive scoreour scoring is as follows:6pt per DST TD3pt per safety10pt per shutout5pt per 1-9PA-1pt per PAso if you give up for example 16 points and score a DST TD you are looking at a -10 point day which is pretty goodif you give up 3 points and have a safety you are looking at +5 which is a VERY good dayif you score a TD and pitch a shutout you get a +16if you give up 10 points then you get a -10 (TEN yesterday)if you give up 41 and score 2 TDs you get a -29 (CHI yesterday)TEN IIRC in my league is sitting at -46 on the year right now which is stout (about -8 per)so if you offense scores 81 a game you'd be averaging 73 if they were your DST
You know, I see where you're going, but I can't find any fun in having a player that, on a normal, average day, is going to get you negative points. I mean, I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties, but it's hard to get stoked about a -5 for your D.
 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
2004 Week 1 - Jerome Bettis rushed 5 times for 1 yard and 3 TD's
Titan defense gave up 10 points, Bear defense gave up 41if you think in any manner that CHI had the better day then there is nothing more anyone can say here to convince you otherwise
The real world is cool and all, but when I draft a fantasy defense they get points according to my fantasy league's scoring rules. According to my league rules Chicago scored 37 points and Tennessee scored 13. I think I'd rather have Chicago on my fantasy team.
yes that is what the thread is for, to discuss if what CHI did should be rewarded 3x what TEN did?
 
This should not be new news but in this game of fantasy football there is no scoring system that will be fair all the time and it's not just on defense. Remember Marcell Shipp a couple of years ago had some weird stat game of something like 5 rushes for 3 yards and 2td. His fantasy points scored were much higher than what his value really was.
this is true and i agree, i think i remember a 3 carry, 3td, 1 yard performance by Bettis alsoso the challenge is to come up with as fair a system as possible right?in the post immediately preceding yours it lists the top five scoring defenses in the 1PA = -1FP systemTENTBBALPITCARdoesn't that just SCREAM fairness based on what you've seen on TV this year as the best "looking" defenses
I'm still really interested in what the actual weekly scores are for those teams. Average NFL team scores around 16 points or so. So, in your system, each D is likely to have at least -16? How do they make up for being that much in a hole to start with? I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't know what it is.
no you have it exactly right, a REAL good defensive day is a positive scoreour scoring is as follows:6pt per DST TD3pt per safety10pt per shutout5pt per 1-9PA-1pt per PAso if you give up for example 16 points and score a DST TD you are looking at a -10 point day which is pretty goodif you give up 3 points and have a safety you are looking at +5 which is a VERY good dayif you score a TD and pitch a shutout you get a +16if you give up 10 points then you get a -10 (TEN yesterday)if you give up 41 and score 2 TDs you get a -29 (CHI yesterday)TEN IIRC in my league is sitting at -46 on the year right now which is stout (about -8 per)so if you offense scores 81 a game you'd be averaging 73 if they were your DST
Can you show us the top 5 fpts ytd?
 
1) The Chicago defense scored 21 points, and allowed 41 points, so really, it's like they only allowed 20 points. So the disparity isn't that big. They forced a lot of turnovers, which is a good thing. Plus, they were on the field longer than they should have been, because after forcing a turnover, they immediately scored, so it's expected that they would give up more points. 2) This is no more unfair than the Colts' defense being charged for the two TDs that Manning allowed. 3) In the short run, it may seem like the Titans got shortchanged for a "better" defensive effort, but at the end of the season, it should even out fairly well.
:thumbup: Finally an argument with logic. You have to look beyond the score - what CHI Def did in that game is far more impressive than what TEN Def did yesterday. It's all about turnovers folks.
agree :lmao:
 
first of all the first CHI TD occured because the Minny punter couldnt catch a snap that hit him squarely in the hands, the CHI DST didn't do anything but pick the ball up the second CHI TD occured because of a freak bounce of a punt that hit a Minny returner who was trying to block, again the CHI didn't create the TD they just fell on a ballTitan defense gave up 10 points, Bear defense gave up 41if you think in any manner that CHI had the better day then there is nothing more anyone can say here to convince you otherwise
So in your mind, the Tennessee defense was the recipient of no lucky bounces? And they did not benefit whatsoever from the ineptitude of the Chiefs offense hampered by another quarterback injury? Was it that the Tennessee defense played that much better than the Chicago defense, or that the Tennessee offense managed to keep the ball for a greater time of possession because, while Tennessee was running the ball down KC's throat to the tune of 300+ yards with 2 different 100 yard rushers, Chicago was getting killed in TOP against one of the best running backs in the league after continually getting a turnover, then scoring in seconds, and giving the ball back to Minny? Also, when you look at a good defensive effort, you seem to think that the only important thing is points scored. But time of possession and turnovers are just as important. If you think about it, Tennessee's offense held the ball almost twice as long as Chicago's. So Chicago allowed 41 points, but scored 21, for a net of 20 points allowed. Tennessee allowed 10 points in half as much time on the field. At the end of the day, they netted roughly the same number of points per minute of ToP. Do you discredit the Colts' defense for allowing Peyton to throw multiple pick sixes? If not, why do you give credit to Tennessee's defense when they held the ball for much longer? Do you think the Patriots had one of the top defenses in the league during their miracle run in 2001? Were you looking at their points allowed, or yards, because the Pats had a bend but don't break defense that gave up a lot of yards, and a ball control offense with the short passing game and a weak running game. You look at the Chicago team effort and see, man, they gave up over 40 points. That's a terrible day for their defense. And you're right - they gave up a lot of points. But that doesn't mean that their defensive players had terrible days. They scored a lot of points and held their opponents to few enough points to win the game. That's how team football works sometimes, even if the score looks crazy.
 
sounds more like there's something wrong w/your league.
yes, that's the point of the threadin the 3 leagues i commish, we use the 1 PA = -1 FPin the ones i don't commish, CHI went berserk scoring yesterday
You have Ds that can score you -20, -30 or more negative points? I wouldn't want to be in that league.
Seriously. What's the penalty for starting a defense on bye? I'd rather take the guaranteed zero, if that's an option. And do your offensive players count for more points than most other leagues? Or did you go out of your way to make defenses the highest scoring position in the game? That just seems ridiculous to me.
 

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