T-BONE
Footballguy
Learning how to be a NFL RB, in the sidelines...Where Cedric???![]()
Learning how to be a NFL RB, in the sidelines...Where Cedric???![]()
Seriously?Inactive.Where Cedric???![]()
So I guess TJ should aim his rear view mirror down a bit to see the bench.![]()
You should be done hearDon't flatter yourself bud, I'm not going to bother responding to a post that didn't really say anything. I mean, you quoted me saying that Atrain still got some carries after TJ came back and somehow extrapolated that to me saying that Atrain got more carries than TJ.Couldn't respond to my last post huh? Gee, I wonder why?Couldn't respond to my last post huh? Gee, I wonder why?This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's always a new excuse for Jones. He wasn't given the opportunity. He got hurt. He was in a bad situation. It's one of them every year, if not some combination of them. If it happens once, ok I'll buy it. Twice, ok I could see that happening. FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS he just got "screwed" by something totally out of his hands? I'm not buying it. Once you get to 5 years in a row, you've got to start thinking it's more the player than an excessively long record bad luck streak that's just going to disappear this year. And since when is 950 yards in 13 games so great? Atrain went for nearly 300 yards and a pair of TDs in the 3 games he started in the same "horrible situation". And what's with all the ripping on Chicago's O-line last year? They had bigtime QB issues, but their O-line has actually been fairly solid.You act as if hes gotten 300 carries every year and just couldnt muster 1000 yards. Sorry, thats not the case. The fact that he managed to get within 50 yards in only 13 starts last year with the worst trio of QBs in the league, one of the worst OLs in the league, and the worst WRs in the league should be considered an impressive feat. Of course, your MO is to simply look at the year end totals, ignore ypc and everything else meaningful and make rash decisions.Why can't we bring up Pittman? He's a perfect example of a guy who is generally looked at as not being very good, yet has put up nearly identical numbers to TJ in the same situations. Ok, so maybe as you said he did "sort of" lose his job to TJ in Tampa after 13 games, well it's about damn time, it only took TJ 4 years to get past the great Pittman. If this was Curtis Martin we're talking about here ok, but how can this guy be so great if his career is constantly being halted by a bad RB that he just can't seem to shake, and whom he puts up nearly identical numbers to in the same situations?Every year for 5 years people have jumped on the TJ bandwagon thinking this would finally be the year where none of the excuses come back up and TJ actually makes for a reliable fantasy RB. 5 years. Now, in the 6th year, he's coming in in perhaps the worst situation he's come into yet (instead of battling the mediocre Michael Pittman, he's now looked at as a placeholder for a highly touted top draft pick that was taken specifically to be the workhorse back in this new offense), yet once again "this is going to be the year".Don't keep bringing up Pittman, because he did sort of lose his job to Thomas Jones in Tampa, as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread. I don't know why you keep overlooking this. That's what got him the job in Chicago, not his high draft status.
And after Benson eventually takes over this year, the "he didn't have a fair chance" excuse will come back into action and we'll go through this all over again in year 7 for TJ wherever he ends up.
Anyway, I think I'm done here. I've been through this arguement 6 times now, and I'm sure I'll be due for time #7 when this all crops back up again next year. I may as well mention on my way out that I own TJ in a money redraft league, so there's not hidden agenda here, just the way I really feel about the guy. Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree here, since I own him, I'll wish you luck on being right, but I certainly am not counting on anything out of him and will deal him for the first good offer that comes my way.
Week 1 he had 15 carries for 31 yards.
Week 2 he played a terrible defense.
Week 3 he will have a similarly weak game against a good defense.
Week 5 he will be the third-down back.
Wow. It almost would have been better if he was inactive.I just checked out the game book, and Benson WAS active.
Jeff Blake, Cedric Benson and Qasim Mitchell did not play.
Inactive: Grossman, Kittner, Holly, Thompson, McGowan, Odom, Idonije and St. Clair (aka the human turnstyle)
Thomas Jones is with out a dout in my mind the hart and soul of Chicago as far as fantasy goes. Is it just me or is he the real thing? Say what yoiu want, but he is a legit number two starter in any league!!
Week 1 he had 15 carries for 31 yards.
Week 2 he played a terrible defense.
Week 3 he will have a similarly weak game against a good defense.
Week 5 he will be the third-down back.Ummmm, I think someone forget to tell Lovie and TJ to play along!
Jones looked damn good today. Too bad Orton had a game like that, or Jones could've done even better.
But how long can TJ put up those kinds of numbers if Orton doesn't play a LOT better?Ahem.
If Orton didn't throw 5 picks, this could have easily been a 180/3 for Jones. As it was, he still got over 100 and a TD, at over 4ypc, which no one will complain about from a starter.
You're darn right I'm using that to discredit Jones. Here's a little flash in the pan for ya. You're making a point about how impressive 950 yards in 13 starts was in that offense, yet Atrain did just fine in the same offense.In those 3 games Atrain went 82-280, 3.4ypc. In TJ's games after Grossman went down, he went 173-618, 3.5ypc. Similar ypc, higher yardage per game for Atrain. What's Atrain doing now? Oh yeah, he's a backup, same place TJ will end up before the season's out. Another thing you're not factoring in here is that Atrain is a pound it out RB, those RB's always have worse ypc. One thing that Atrain DID do was get a lot of carries when he was in. Was this pure luck, or something more? Didn't the Bears draft Benson because they didn't think TJ could pound the ball 30 times a game. Then it doesn't seem like such a big a coincidence that in Atrains mere 3 starts he had games where he carries 28 and 29 times, yet in TJ's THIRTEEN starts he DIDN'T CARRY THAT MANY TIMES EVEN ONCE (not to mention TJ has never been able to make it even close to going through a season carrying the load without getting hurt). Same O-line. Same QB. Same "situation". 280/2 rushing in 3 games, certainly doesn't make the 618/3 that TJ got in his 10 starts in the same situation look all that good, does it?950 in 13 games isn't that amazing under normal circumstances, but he averaged 4 ypc during that stretch, which should tell you that he didn't get that many carries. That's actually another thing that sucked about last year's Bears, OC Terry Shea. He was horrible, he didn't know how to call a game, and he tried to make the players fit his scheme rather than scheme for the players he had. This is why he immediately lost his job at the end of the season. Jones was under 20 carries for most games last season, it was ridiculous.
And then of course, you factor in the COMPLETE lack of a passing game for almost the entire season, the fact that the OL sucked, and the fact that the defenses absolutely knew that Thomas Jones was the only player who could hurt them, and you should probably be wondering how he managed 950/9 like he did. If he was half as bad as you think he was, he probably couldn't have cracked 700/5. The entire Bears offense was a complete disaster in 2004, and few RBs in the league could have cracked 1000 in 13 there as TJ almost did.
And now you're talking about A-Train and the OL being good? At this point, it's clear to any Bears homer that you did not watch these games. A-Train almost got 300 yards in 3 games, you're right. Against who? Three of the weakest run D teams (and just bad teams overall) in their schedule, SF, Tennesse, and the Giants. And, what's worse is that he averaged 3.4ypc to slowly accumulate those 280ish yards. Yes, it took him 82 carries to get those yards in 3 games. You're trying to use that to discredit Jones? A-Train did worse against the weakest competition the Bears saw that year.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but judging by the way it was put together (seriously I've seen people mix up there and their, but here and hear?) I'm guessing it wasn't anything too clever.You should be done hear![]()
What suggests he can't? And, besides, it's pretty highly unlikely that Orton throws 5 picks again this year, especially since the NFC North is full of crappy defenses, and Cincy may be one the best 2 teams Chicago plays all year.But how long can TJ put up those kinds of numbers if Orton doesn't play a LOT better?Ahem.
If Orton didn't throw 5 picks, this could have easily been a 180/3 for Jones. As it was, he still got over 100 and a TD, at over 4ypc, which no one will complain about from a starter.
Um, ok... TJ had something like 86 yards at halftime... that's not garbage time. Secondly, his td wasn't garbage time. That came early in the 4th and made the score 17-7. Now granted scoring 17 unanswered points in 1 quarter with a QB who threw 5 int's in the game is a tough thing to do, but not impossible. He didn't roll up rushing stats when down 17. I didn't actually get to watch the game, but I imagine the Bengals stacked the box for the run even in the 4th quarter when the Bears had to pass. The chances of Orton completing a pass to a Bears receiver or to a Bengals DB was about 50/50 at that point. Orton didn't play well, but he'll bounce back. He's a talented QB who had a great college career and faltered midway through his senior year. I'm excited about the Bears prospects this year despite the whooping they received today.I can't believe you guys are creaming over 3.9ypc and a meaningless fourth-quarter TD in a blowout. Well, OK, the Bears are likely to have a lot of garbage time this year, and garbage time still counts, but it's not like it takes talent to roll up rushing stats when you're down by 17 and the defense is playing pass.
Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. It wasn't the same situation. Comparing TJ's run against tougher teams, both to run against and in general, to A-Train's games against weaker times to run against and just worse over all is foolish and gets you nowhere. The QB, as you say, was not the same. TJ played with Hutch and Quinn almost exclusively, and A-Train played with Krenzel against crap teams. Want a better comparison? Look below. You pretty much handed it to me, except somehow attempted to use this to support your tenuous position. Hilarious.You're darn right I'm using that to discredit Jones. Here's a little flash in the pan for ya. You're making a point about how impressive 950 yards in 13 starts was in that offense, yet Atrain did just fine in the same offense.
In those 3 games Atrain went 82-280, 3.4ypc. In TJ's games after Grossman went down, he went 173-618, 3.5ypc. Similar ypc, higher yardage per game for Atrain. What's Atrain doing now? Oh yeah, he's a backup, same place TJ will end up before the season's out. Another thing you're not factoring in here is that Atrain is a pound it out RB, those RB's always have worse ypc. One thing that Atrain DID do was get a lot of carries when he was in. Was this pure luck, or something more? Didn't the Bears draft Benson because they didn't think TJ could pound the ball 30 times a game. Then it doesn't seem like such a big a coincidence that in Atrains mere 3 starts he had games where he carries 28 and 29 times, yet in TJ's THIRTEEN starts he DIDN'T CARRY THAT MANY TIMES EVEN ONCE (not to mention TJ has never been able to make it even close to going through a season carrying the load without getting hurt). Same O-line. Same QB. Same "situation". 280/2 rushing in 3 games, certainly doesn't make the 618/3 that TJ got in his 10 starts in the same situation look all that good, does it?
Again, you're bringing up points that don't help your argument at all. You're trying to compare A-Train's games against SF, NYG, and TEN to TJ's games against DET, MIN, and GB? Sure! Let's do it:A-Train: 82 for 280, 3.4ypc, 2 TDs in 3 games vs NYG/SF/TEN (Post-Grossman)And before you go on about SF, NYG, and TEN being the weakest defenses the Bears played all year, have you forgotten what division Chicago is in?!?!? TJ got Minnesota TWICE, Green Bay TWICE, and Detroit TWICE, as well as Houston and Indy. Not exactly Rudi Johnson's schedule there...
How many RBs do well against the Redskins?But hey, let's keep bringing up schedules. I mean, TJ has certainly shed that this year by going 15-31 against a good run defense, and then putting up good points against two terrible ones. Oh wait.
Uh, as I said multiple times, I'm not a TJ owner. That's about the 3rd or 4th time you've just come out and said something completely wrong. You haven't made any real points about TJ's recent performances that stand up to even casual scrutiny, either.And once again, I see a post from a TJ owner with 5 paragraphs of excuses as to why he hasn't succeeded before. Once, ok. Twice, eh maybe. 5 straight years of just pure bad luck? I'm not buying it. Soon it will be 6 and counting when he "unfairly" gets benched yet again.
Anyway, like I said we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here, we've both made our points and we're certainly not going to change each other's mind. Time to just ride this one out and see what happens. I can't believe I've spent this much time arguing over Thomas Jones..
WOW, I didn't know my English teacher was on the board. DorkYou're darn right I'm using that to discredit Jones. Here's a little flash in the pan for ya. You're making a point about how impressive 950 yards in 13 starts was in that offense, yet Atrain did just fine in the same offense.In those 3 games Atrain went 82-280, 3.4ypc. In TJ's games after Grossman went down, he went 173-618, 3.5ypc. Similar ypc, higher yardage per game for Atrain. What's Atrain doing now? Oh yeah, he's a backup, same place TJ will end up before the season's out. Another thing you're not factoring in here is that Atrain is a pound it out RB, those RB's always have worse ypc. One thing that Atrain DID do was get a lot of carries when he was in. Was this pure luck, or something more? Didn't the Bears draft Benson because they didn't think TJ could pound the ball 30 times a game. Then it doesn't seem like such a big a coincidence that in Atrains mere 3 starts he had games where he carries 28 and 29 times, yet in TJ's THIRTEEN starts he DIDN'T CARRY THAT MANY TIMES EVEN ONCE (not to mention TJ has never been able to make it even close to going through a season carrying the load without getting hurt). Same O-line. Same QB. Same "situation". 280/2 rushing in 3 games, certainly doesn't make the 618/3 that TJ got in his 10 starts in the same situation look all that good, does it?950 in 13 games isn't that amazing under normal circumstances, but he averaged 4 ypc during that stretch, which should tell you that he didn't get that many carries. That's actually another thing that sucked about last year's Bears, OC Terry Shea. He was horrible, he didn't know how to call a game, and he tried to make the players fit his scheme rather than scheme for the players he had. This is why he immediately lost his job at the end of the season. Jones was under 20 carries for most games last season, it was ridiculous.
And then of course, you factor in the COMPLETE lack of a passing game for almost the entire season, the fact that the OL sucked, and the fact that the defenses absolutely knew that Thomas Jones was the only player who could hurt them, and you should probably be wondering how he managed 950/9 like he did. If he was half as bad as you think he was, he probably couldn't have cracked 700/5. The entire Bears offense was a complete disaster in 2004, and few RBs in the league could have cracked 1000 in 13 there as TJ almost did.
And now you're talking about A-Train and the OL being good? At this point, it's clear to any Bears homer that you did not watch these games. A-Train almost got 300 yards in 3 games, you're right. Against who? Three of the weakest run D teams (and just bad teams overall) in their schedule, SF, Tennesse, and the Giants. And, what's worse is that he averaged 3.4ypc to slowly accumulate those 280ish yards. Yes, it took him 82 carries to get those yards in 3 games. You're trying to use that to discredit Jones? A-Train did worse against the weakest competition the Bears saw that year.
And before you go on about SF, NYG, and TEN being the weakest defenses the Bears played all year, have you forgotten what division Chicago is in?!?!? TJ got Minnesota TWICE, Green Bay TWICE, and Detroit TWICE, as well as Houston and Indy. Not exactly Rudi Johnson's schedule there...
But hey, let's keep bringing up schedules. I mean, TJ has certainly shed that this year by going 15-31 against a good run defense, and then putting up good points against two terrible ones. Oh wait.
And once again, I see a post from a TJ owner with 5 paragraphs of excuses as to why he hasn't succeeded before. Once, ok. Twice, eh maybe. 5 straight years of just pure bad luck? I'm not buying it. Soon it will be 6 and counting when he "unfairly" gets benched yet again.
Anyway, like I said we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here, we've both made our points and we're certainly not going to change each other's mind. Time to just ride this one out and see what happens. I can't believe I've spent this much time arguing over Thomas Jones..
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but judging by the way it was put together (seriously I've seen people mix up there and their, but here and hear?) I'm guessing it wasn't anything too clever.You should be done hear![]()
Try watching the game before making comments like this.The first half featured Thomas Jones running very well only to watch Orton repeatedly screw up.I can't believe you guys are creaming over 3.9ypc and a meaningless fourth-quarter TD in a blowout. Well, OK, the Bears are likely to have a lot of garbage time this year, and garbage time still counts, but it's not like it takes talent to roll up rushing stats when you're down by 17 and the defense is playing pass.
Benson is a talented back that will get his featured job next year IMO. They should trade T.J. in the off season for reciever help, and develop Benson in the OTA's/Training camp to be the complete back that jones currently is.Benson was a wasted high pick by the Bears.
I should have mentioned where I got my "information". I was relaying what the broadcast team said during the game. Not exactly shocking if this was incorrect.I just checked out the game book, and Benson WAS active.
Jeff Blake, Cedric Benson and Qasim Mitchell did not play.
Inactive: Grossman, Kittner, Holly, Thompson, McGowan, Odom, Idonije and St. Clair (aka the human turnstyle)
This is apples to apples. Same situation. SAME TEAM. Same O-line, bad QB, etc. Even when comparing equally weak defenses (more on this below).Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. It wasn't the same situation.
There's more to a run defense than pure total yardage allowed. Teams with bad secondaries put up better "total rush D" than teams with good ones simply because teams can pass or run against those teams. Miami is a good example, they have a bad run D, but it's only equally as bad as a team like Minnesota or Green Bay, yet they allow far more total rush yardage than those teams because teams have to run against them, whereas teams can run or pass against a team like Minn or GB. So to that effect, let's take a look at the worst run D's the Bears faced last year based on ypc, a much more accurate reflection of good the defense is:Worst (all tied at 4.6ypc):as a group, they were tougher teams to run against. Your comparison was a very bad one, and the one above is far more accurate.
Statistics? You want to talk statistics? I have a stats minor, and as such I can tell you that the likelihood that one guy got 28+ carries in 2 out of 3 starts, while another did it ZERO times in THIRTEEN starts based purely on coincidence is infinitessibly (sp?) small. Even further, Atrain got 25+ carries in ALL THREE of his starts, while TJ did so in only 1 of his 13.Chicago held the lead against Minnesota just fine with TJ in there, yet he only received 15 carries while Atrain finished pounding away at the clock.And who cares that they gave A-Train a few more carries in the games he started? They were ahead in 2 of those late, and ground the 4th quarter away. That certainly is statistically significant!
Simply came out wrong. TJ "apologist" would've been a better term I suppose, especially since I'm actually a TJ "owner" that didn't fit right. After typing one-handed for a half an hour it just kind of flows out as it does.Again, we're not going to change each other's minds here, so let's let this just let this die already. This is Thomas Jones, a 6 year guy with nothing but excuses on his resume, he's not worth this much time.Uh, as I said multiple times, I'm not a TJ owner.And once again, I see a post from a TJ owner with 5 paragraphs of excuses as to why he hasn't succeeded before. Once, ok. Twice, eh maybe. 5 straight years of just pure bad luck? I'm not buying it. Soon it will be 6 and counting when he "unfairly" gets benched yet again.
Have you seen that division?I'm pretty sure that Iowa State could be a playoff contender in that division...Thomas Jones can have all the great games he wants, and the owners should enjoy them while they last. The point I'd like to make is unless the Bears can start winning games, you can kiss TJ goodbye as a starter. I'd imagine the Bears will eventually want to start seeing what kind of performance Benson can give them this year, in preparation for next season. A losing record would certainly give way to Benson starting over Jones.
Let’s look at the rest of the Bears first half schedule:
Week 4 - Bye
Week 5 - @ CLE
Week 6 - MIN
Week 7 - BAL
Week 8 - @ DET
Week 9 - @ NOR (Where will this be played??)
2 of the next 5 games are against division teams. 3 of the next 5 games are away. If the Bears can win those expect to see plenty of Thomas Jones this season, as they’ll be in playoff contention in a weak division. If the Bears lose those division games and drop 1 or 2 others, I would guess Benson could be starting in the 2nd half of the season.
Thomas Jones is the man for now; I'm not trying to discredit him with this post. However, I would have a hard time counting on him to carry your team all season and into the playoffs. The time to try and sell TJ high could be just a few weeks away...he could put up some big numbers in the upcoming games.
Of course the Bears could start winning and this whole post could be nil...where do you place your chips? Does anyone really think that given their QB situation the Bears will be a playoff contender this year?
I agree they are in a weak divison. That is why I believe the next few games are going to be very important for TJ owners. If the Bears drop 3 out of their next 5 (giving them a 3-5 record) it won't be looking too great for TJ owners.Have you seen that division?
I'm pretty sure that Iowa State could be a playoff contender in that division...
That depends on how the rest of the divison goesI think 3-5 would only be a game back. 8-8 looks to win that division, so if you go 3-5 and then 5-3 you may be in the playoifffs.I agree they are in a weak divison. That is why I believe the next few games are going to be very important for TJ owners. If the Bears drop 3 out of their next 5 (giving them a 3-5 record) it won't be looking too great for TJ owners.Have you seen that division?
I'm pretty sure that Iowa State could be a playoff contender in that division...