Tiebreaking procedure NFL/Fantasy (1 Viewer)

[belljr]

I wanted to get your guys thoughts on the way the NFL breaks ties. We use the NFL tiebreaking procedure which is here

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?page=tiebreakers

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

Two Clubs

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).

2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.

4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

5. Strength of victory.

6. Strength of schedule.

7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9. Best net points in common games.

10. Best net points in all games.

11. Best net touchdowns in all games.

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).

2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.

4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

5. Strength of victory.

6. Strength of schedule.

7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9. Best net points in common games.

10. Best net points in all games.

11. Best net touchdowns in all games.

And this note

OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES

1. Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild-Card tie breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to step one of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tie breaker, all other clubs revert to step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.

2. In comparing division and conference records or records against common opponents among tied teams, the best won-lost-tied percentage is the deciding factor since teams may have played an unequal number of games.

3. To determine home-field priority among division titlists, apply Wild-Card tie breakers.

4. To determine home-field priority for Wild-Card qualifiers, apply division tie breakers (if teams are from the same division) or Wild-Card tie breakers (if teams are from different ivisions).

So in our situation let's say Team A is 7-6

Team B is 7-6

Team C is 7-6

They are seeding for the division. The top 2 teams in the division will advance.

All 3 teams have the same division record.

So we start with H2H

Team A - 3-1

Team B - 2-2

Team C - 1-3.

The question the table is after the first step you can seed/eliminate a team and the rules states - Only one team advances in each step but the division tiebreaker states

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

So the question IS.

Does Team A win and then you resort to 2 team tiebreaker for B and C OR

Is Team C is #3 seed and you start over with Team A and B for the top 2 seeds?

Basically which way does the NFL implement - eliminate the worst team OR seed the higher team first

TIA

 

[Longhorn daddy]

This dude was totally right.

I am glad I didn't respond poorly as some did in his thread.

He called it.

 

[belljr]

I just really want to know which way the NFL goes - top first or remove bottom

 

[TommyGilmore]

I just really want to know which way the NFL goes - top first or remove bottom

You take top first IF the bottom 2 teams are tied. Otherwise, you remove bottom first.

 

[belljr]

I just really want to know which way the NFL goes - top first or remove bottom

You take top first IF the bottom 2 teams are tied. Otherwise, you remove bottom first.

SO Team C is last because of 1-3 and then you redo the 2 teams procedure.This makes sense to me.

 

[TommyGilmore]

I just really want to know which way the NFL goes - top first or remove bottom

You take top first IF the bottom 2 teams are tied. Otherwise, you remove bottom first.

SO Team C is last because of 1-3 and then you redo the 2 teams procedure.This makes sense to me.

Exactly. Then you re-do the tie between C and whoever loses between B and A. It's possible that C could finish 2nd after all.

 

[belljr]

I just really want to know which way the NFL goes - top first or remove bottom

You take top first IF the bottom 2 teams are tied. Otherwise, you remove bottom first.

SO Team C is last because of 1-3 and then you redo the 2 teams procedure.This makes sense to me.

Exactly. Then you re-do the tie between C and whoever loses between B and A. It's possible that C could finish 2nd after all.

Wait I don't agree with that.We eliminated C bases on removing the bottom first. Now you do the 2 team with A and B for the top 2 spots. C was eliminated.You're saying eliminate the tie with A and B after C was last then once A or B advance, then do another tie with Team C and the remaining A/B.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Exactly. Then you re-do the tie between C and whoever loses between B and A. It's possible that C could finish 2nd after all.

Wait I don't agree with that.We eliminated C bases on removing the bottom first. Now you do the 2 team with A and B for the top 2 spots. C was eliminated.

You're saying eliminate the tie with A and B after C was last then once A or B advance, then do another tie with Team C and the remaining A/B.

I was just going by what the NFL says here:

1. Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild-Card tie breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to step one of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tie breaker, all other clubs revert to step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.

 

[PosterNutBag]

I 100% agree with TommyGilmore on this one. The NFL determines tiebreakers seed by seed, so after the division winner is determined you would then have a 2-team tiebreaker left with the 2 teams who did not win the division. It is true that you could potentially eliminate one team in a given step and then have that team come back and beat the other team in a 2-way tiebreaker for the next playoff seed you are determining.

Team A wins the division on H2H. Then a new tiebreaker starts and assuming that Teams B/C split their season series, it comes down to who had the best division record and so forth.

 

[belljr]

found some precedence in 1995

Posted it here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=11214436

Assume that tiebreaking is the same

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Our league is a standard ESPN league. The only reference to playoffs is Playoff seeding tiebreaker is Head to Head record.

I am tied for the last playoff spot.

We went 1-1 against each other. We are in different divisions, but my div record is 3-2. His is 2-3.

In our games, I won 100-66, he won 100-74. Cumutaviley I scored 174 to his 166.

Overall point differential I was +50, he was -50...however his overall points scored is 1062 to my 1042.

All that said, in the absence of specific tiebreakers, I think he will get the playoff spot do to points scored because he has a 20 point edge. It isn't stated in the rules, but I am assuming most leagues would go with total points scored to break the tie...right?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

found some precedence in 1995

Posted it here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=11214436

Assume that tiebreaking is the same

I know they've changed some of the tiebreakers since 1995, but I'm not sure if they changed the procedure. Also, this part seems to go against what TommyGilmore wrote:

Seattle finished ahead of Denver and Oakland in the AFC West based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Broncos' 2-2 and Raiders' 1-3).

St. Louis finished ahead of Carolina and New Orleans in the NFC West based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Panthers' 1-3 and Saints' 2-2).

That article makes it appear that Oakland and Carolina were NOT eliminated first.However, Seattle was 2-0 against Denver in 1995, so maybe the Wiki article was just worded improperly?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Our league is a standard ESPN league. The only reference to playoffs is Playoff seeding tiebreaker is Head to Head record.I am tied for the last playoff spot.We went 1-1 against each other. We are in different divisions, but my div record is 3-2. His is 2-3.In our games, I won 100-66, he won 100-74. Cumutaviley I scored 174 to his 166.Overall point differential I was +50, he was -50...however his overall points scored is 1062 to my 1042.All that said, in the absence of specific tiebreakers, I think he will get the playoff spot do to points scored because he has a 20 point edge. It isn't stated in the rules, but I am assuming most leagues would go with total points scored to break the tie...right?

I would think that Total Points would be a more valid tiebreaker. They shouldn't use Division Record because you played in different divisions and therefore had different opponents (your 3-2 record could be against cupcakes, while his 2-3 record could be against the best teams in the league).

 

[belljr]

found some precedence in 1995

Posted it here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=11214436

Assume that tiebreaking is the same

I know they've changed some of the tiebreakers since 1995, but I'm not sure if they changed the procedure. Also, this part seems to go against what TommyGilmore wrote:

Seattle finished ahead of Denver and Oakland in the AFC West based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Broncos' 2-2 and Raiders' 1-3).

St. Louis finished ahead of Carolina and New Orleans in the NFC West based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Panthers' 1-3 and Saints' 2-2).

That article makes it appear that Oakland and Carolina were NOT eliminated first.However, Seattle was 2-0 against Denver in 1995, so maybe the Wiki article was just worded improperly?

No this has been my stance all along. St Louis and Seattle were seeded first because of 3-1 record.You then revert back to the 2 team tiebreaker for the lower seeds. You don't DUMP the lowest seed you place the higher seed. That's how I always understood it.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

No this has been my stance all along. St Louis and Seattle were seeded first because of 3-1 record.

You then revert back to the 2 team tiebreaker for the lower seeds. You don't DUMP the lowest seed you place the higher seed. That's how I always understood it.

I think you are correct although I can't find any examples in the NFL. It looks like the 1995 seedings could have used either method.If you look through the NFL tiebreakers here, you'll find verbiage that supports both methods:

Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.

That implies that you ONLY dump the lower seed when 2 or more teams are tied for the top spot.On the other hand....

Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

This implies that a lower seed could get dropped even if the 2 teams above it are not tied! Example:Team A: 3-1 vs. B & C (2-0 vs. C, 1-1 vs. B)

Team B: 2-1 vs. A & C (1-0 vs. C, 1-1 vs. B)

Team C: 0-3 vs. A & B

Based on the NFL's verbiage, it looks like you would indeed eliminate C first in this scenario, THEN break the tie between A & B.

 

[gianmarco]

With 3 teams left and filling 2 spots, you need to do this seed by seed. You use the 3 team tiebreaker as above. Team A with 3-1 record wins that tiebreaker and advances first. The only time you remove the bottom team is if Team A and Team B actually tied using the 1st tiebreaker and Team C was below. You would then remove Team C and start at the top to break the tie between Team A and Team B for the 1st spot. This isn't the case, however. Team A clearly advances using the 1st tiebreaker.

Highest seed from those teams goes to Team A.

Now, you work on the 2nd seed. You now only determine H2H between Team B and Team C. In other words, go back and use the 2 team tiebreakers listed at the very top. At this point, it's possible that Team C overtakes Team B. If they split their H2H and have same division record, it's going to come down to W-L against common opponents.

ETA--If that wasn't clear, let me know and I'll give examples of both situations.

 

[gianmarco]

Let's assume you are filling the #5 and #6 seeds in the playoffs. You have 3 teams that are tied to fill those 2 spots as you described above. All 3 teams have a 7-6 record.

Team A H2H -- 3-1

Team B H2H -- 2-2

Team C H2H -- 1-3

You attempt to get the #5 seed first. Team A clearly wins this using the tiebreaker listed above for 3 teams. You pretend that there is only one seed to fill for the 3 teams. In this case, it's easy. The only time you'd eliminate C first would be the following:

Team A H2H -- 2-2

Team B H2H -- 2-2

Team C H2H --0-4

In that example, you eliminate Team C first to fill the #5 seed. You then start back at the top using a 2 team tiebreaker to break the tie between Team A and Team B for the #5 seed. Once you break the tie between those two teams, the winner would get the #5 seed. THEN, you would start over using the 2 team tiebreaker method between Team C and whoever just lost the tiebreaker from Team A or B.

 

[belljr]

No this has been my stance all along. St Louis and Seattle were seeded first because of 3-1 record.

You then revert back to the 2 team tiebreaker for the lower seeds. You don't DUMP the lowest seed you place the higher seed. That's how I always understood it.

I think you are correct although I can't find any examples in the NFL. It looks like the 1995 seedings could have used either method.If you look through the NFL tiebreakers here, you'll find verbiage that supports both methods:

Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.

That implies that you ONLY dump the lower seed when 2 or more teams are tied for the top spot.On the other hand....

Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

This implies that a lower seed could get dropped even if the 2 teams above it are not tied! Example:

Team A: 3-1 vs. B & C (2-0 vs. C, 1-1 vs. B)

Team B: 2-1 vs. A & C (1-0 vs. C, 1-1 vs. B)

Team C: 0-3 vs. A & B

Based on the NFL's verbiage, it looks like you would indeed eliminate C first in this scenario, THEN break the tie between A & B.

H2H sweep is for WC seedings - I'm only breaking a tie within division first h2h %

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Our league is a standard ESPN league. The only reference to playoffs is Playoff seeding tiebreaker is Head to Head record.I am tied for the last playoff spot.We went 1-1 against each other. We are in different divisions, but my div record is 3-2. His is 2-3.In our games, I won 100-66, he won 100-74. Cumutaviley I scored 174 to his 166.Overall point differential I was +50, he was -50...however his overall points scored is 1062 to my 1042.All that said, in the absence of specific tiebreakers, I think he will get the playoff spot do to points scored because he has a 20 point edge. It isn't stated in the rules, but I am assuming most leagues would go with total points scored to break the tie...right?

I would think that Total Points would be a more valid tiebreaker. They shouldn't use Division Record because you played in different divisions and therefore had different opponents (your 3-2 record could be against cupcakes, while his 2-3 record could be against the best teams in the league).

Alas, and correctly, it was total points. On the bright side this season is over. The omly drawback is I spent a lot of money to keep this team competitive due to a series of unfortunate injuries to star players. All for naught.